Chaos reigns

[swdw]

Sigh, being a newbie to the game there's abit too much confusion when looking at the mods.

Although Cpt Cox's sticky helps there are still too many unanswered questions.

This is not new to games. When Fighter Squadron mods were coming out, it was a huge mess, so I wound up corraling an effort to get things sorted out and new users were much happier.

Give me a little time with this game and I'll be willing to help in this area.

For now, things that can be done:
Create self extracting zips for mods- can be done with free software- I recommend either IZArc or Zipgenius

List of what mods overlap- you have to search through each individual mod thread to find out these things.

For example, do you need the Trigger Maru Graphics pack if you use ROW?

I've seen questions asked in individual mod threads about what order to install these in. It would be best if there was an independent sticky called "Mod installation sequence" PLEASE!! I'm too new to the game to do this as of yet.

Also, for the bigger mods, I will be willing to write an installer for them. That way, instead of deleting files manually when there's an update, you uninstall the oold version which removes the files, then install the new version.

Last, the Fighter squadron community came up with a mod DVD that had a nice graphical interface and required add ons to have installers. They made the DVD available as a torrent. This DVD was like the "supermod" I've seen requested, and once mods were installed, there were no conflicts as they were sorted out ahead of time.

Anyway, I also have the ablilty to create such an interface if such a project were to be undertaken.

For mods that would be better with installers, the creators don't have to worry about learning a scripting language. Here are some good installer creators that are free for people creating free software:
Q-Setup- demo version is fully functional and written for freeware creators
http://www.pantaray.com/register.html

Click Team Install creator
http://www.clickteam.com/eng/installcreator.php

There are more, but these are the ones I can think of for now.

[kapitan_zur_see]

I think JSGME already does the job really good for the installation process

[ReallyDedPoet]

Like kzs mentioned, JSGME is a great app. Check out the link on my sig. for some visuals. However there is always room for new stuff as well.

By the way, welcome to SUBSIM :up: swdw


RDP

[sqk7744]

Welcome to Subsim! :arrgh!:

JSGME and check-out Excalibur Bane's great mod list!
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=118945

* Maybe you can offer to assist him

Cheers,
sqk7744

[swdw]

I think JSGME already does the job really good for the installation process

Too a point yes, but why are there instructions on mods about going in to folders and manually deleting files if JSGME hansles all of i?

[sqk7744]

I think JSGME already does the job really good for the installation process
Too a point yes, but why are there instructions on mods about going in to folders and manually deleting files if JSGME hansles all of i?
Some of the larger mods have many smaller mods baked-in.

So, folks who like 95% of a mod, but want to preserve a specific feature that the mod would otherwise over-write choose to manually move those files over. Having said that, a feature in JSGME that allows you to Check/UnCheck specific folders with-in the Mods' /MODS/'mega-mod/Data/folder would be very helpful!

EG: Sinking Mechanics, A specific SubSkin, or Camera view. The Cameras.dat is a notoriously shared file where, 'Last Save Wins'

Cheers,
:arrgh!:

[swdw]

Welcome to Subsim! :arrgh!:

JSGME and check-out Excalibur Bane's great mod list!
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=118945

* Maybe you can offer to assist him

Cheers,
sqk7744

Thisa list is one of the things that prompted this posting because
1. It does'nt give an install sequence when it's important and
2. Doesn't tell you where things overlap and if one mod has been included in another.

As for assisting, as I said I need a little time with the game. Notice I didn't come in and just gripe, bit offerred a couple of suggestions and stated I'd be willing to help- just to new to the game to do it right now.

What I've seen before is the people experienced with the game putting down such ideas saying "we already have such and such". But once you plow ahead and simplify things, the noobs and less hard core gamers come out of the wood work expressing their gratitude.

I've helped on more than just Fighter Squadron, but it was the biggest mess I'd seen in the past, which is why I mentioned it. Actually got a job offer from EA because one of their senior programmers was a user and saw the difference ot made in development and ease of use.:o Don't like those kind of deadlines though, so said no.

I mention that because it shows how much better it mnakes a sim for everyone when things are laid out better.

So, yes, I will assist, but it will take some playing with the game and me getting familiar with what mod does what before I'll be of any use. As a matter of fact I'm combining some of the mods in a folder to begin the super mod as I'm reading, installing, and learning.

[sqk7744]

Thanks for the help swdw! (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=237278) :up:

[Rockin Robbins]

Once upon a time mods were done with this excellent program by Time Traveller called the Mini-Tweaker. In conjunction with nvdrifter's tweak files all looked fine in the land. A snot-nosed young(?) upstart named skwasjer blew into town and announced that he was going to make a new universal game file editor that wouldn't need tweak files and would see things unimagined by present-day mortals.

The scream could be heard throughout the land! "Mini-Tweaker is the standard. It is the best attainable." "You don't even know the terminology! This is called that, and that is called the other thing. How are you going to accomplish anything if you don't know that? Which is really the other thing!"

Skwasjer said, "Hold on there pardners. I'm not here to take over Dodge, just build a new repair shop to go next to Time Traveller's there. There's plenty of work for both of us and if you try my new toy, I bet you like it too." And so it was that S3D moved into Silent Hunter land and made all manner of before unimagined wizardry possible. Mini-Tweaker didn't miss a beat, but it had a new partner to make the game even better.

Now Skwasjer is an old hand around these parts and you're the new snot-nosed kid. Yeah, folks are a bit skeptical around here, but there's no argument like success. They don't really bite, just growl a little. When your stuff works they'll come around.

But this is the big time. This is SUBSIM. The best modders hang out here and the best players too. They all know their mods and can put a torpedo between the rudder post and the propeller without touching a thing. They shoot straight and don't suffer fools. If you've got what it takes, and it sounds like you do, you'll do just fine. Pull up a chair. Take your boots off and welcome aboard.:cool:

[swdw]

But this is the big time. This is SUBSIM. The best modders hang out here and the best players too. They all know their mods and can put a torpedo between the rudder post and the propeller without touching a thing. They shoot straight and don't suffer fools. If you've got what it takes, and it sounds like you do, you'll do just fine. Pull up a chair. Take your boots off and welcome aboard.:cool:

Hee hee, everbody thinks their favorite sim is "the big time". But thanks for intervening with the history that points out what I mentioned earlier. Shows you guys are not stuck up at all. Good groups of people are hard to find on some sim forums.

Anyway, will start a new post collecting info

[sqk7744]

Once upon a time mods were done with this excellent program by Time Traveller called the Mini-Tweaker. In conjunction with nvdrifter's tweak files all looked fine in the land. A snot-nosed young(?) upstart named skwasjer blew into town and announced that he was going to make a new universal game file editor that wouldn't need tweak files and would see things unimagined by present-day mortals.

The scream could be heard throughout the land! "Mini-Tweaker is the standard. It is the best attainable." "You don't even know the terminology! This is called that, and that is called the other thing. How are you going to accomplish anything if you don't know that? Which is really the other thing!"

Skwasjer said, "Hold on there pardners. I'm not here to take over Dodge, just build a new repair shop to go next to Time Traveller's there. There's plenty of work for both of us and if you try my new toy, I bet you like it too." And so it was that S3D moved into Silent Hunter land and made all manner of before unimagined wizardry possible. Mini-Tweaker didn't miss a beat, but it had a new partner to make the game even better.

Now Skwasjer is an old hand around these parts and you're the new snot-nosed kid. Yeah, folks are a bit skeptical around here, but there's no argument like success. They don't really bite, just growl a little. When your stuff works they'll come around.

But this is the big time. This is SUBSIM. The best modders hang out here and the best players too. They all know their mods and can put a torpedo between the rudder post and the propeller without touching a thing. They shoot straight and don't suffer fools. If you've got what it takes, and it sounds like you do, you'll do just fine. Pull up a chair. Take your boots off and welcome aboard.:cool:

WELL SAID RR! :up::up::up::up:

[JScones]

There's two distinct issues here and each needs to be considered individually.

1. Mod compatibility and integration.

Before even thinking about distribution, one needs to integrate the mods. Are you suggesting making a combined mod pack using TM as the base? I mean, are you suggesting that you will integrate existing disparate mods into compatible mod packages that can be enabled over TM, or form part of the base TM? This is a big project and will still require some form of mod installation order instructions no matter how you distribute. At this point, whether your creation is distributed as an installer, or 7z, or whatever is irrelevant.

2. Distribution method.

If you get a chance and have SH3, have a look at the GWX and GWX 1.03 installers. They do what you are thinking of doing plus much more (the GWX installer even installs JSGME, but that's because I sought permission from me to distribute it, LOL!). Heck, the original GWX 1.04 installer (I took it with me when I left the team a few months ago) even installed a unique JSGME icon and some other fancy stuff.

These installers are also smart - they query the selected install folder and through the use of heuristics determine whether there will be any longer term conflicts (they check firstly that the folder points to a valid SH3 installation, then check for modified files that may interfere with the running of GWX. In the case of the 1.03 patch, it checks to make sure 1.0 is installed). Players get a warning if problems are found, ignoring solely at their own risk (the first installer halted on errors, but after much whining I gave the option to ignore the errors in the 1.03 installer).

Optional mods are placed nicely under the JSGME MODS folder for easy enabling. These are, of course, 100% compatible with the base GWX install.

Of course, some of the integrity checks upset players who don't like their inept housekeeping being exposed by a computer programme, but I'm sure most have benefited in the long wrong with stable gameplay...

One thing though - unlike your thinking, I consciously made a decision to NOT allow the installers to be uninstalled. The only way to remove GWX is by uninstalling SH3. Why? Because 20 years of software deployment plus three years of experience with inexperienced SH3 players (sorry guys) demonstrated to me that it would create MORE pain by creating MORE backups of files...I mean, can you guarantee that all players will uninstall a subsequent mod before uninstalling yours, or uninstall yours before uninstalling SH4? Sounds simple, but I can assure you it isn't for a lot of players, even if through no other reason than a minute of forgetfulness. And it's ironic because this is the exact problem that you are trying to avoid. ;)

But this may be different here. For GWX, MANY files needed to be removed. Indeed, almost EVERY SH3 data file was removed or replaced. Here it looks like a much smaller scale, so if you are thinking of installing everything into the MODS folder but numbered sequentially or with some other indication of install order, you prolly won't have this problem. And in which case whether you use an installer or 7z is prolly not that important anyway. ;)

Personally I'm all for the installer approach (with control mechanisms like the ones I've outlined above) for the bigger mod compilations that must be installed over clean files to work right. They're more convenient and user friendly, and also harder for the user to screw up (although this depends on the control mechanisms implemented). But TBH I don't think it's necessary for the smaller mods and mod packs, like those that currently exist in SH4. I mean, if you intend to create a collection of the best mods out there and integrate them so that they work together, what's it matter how you distribute them if all the work in integrating them is already done? Might as well zip it up and let it extract to the MODS folder and let your folder names guide the installation order. This would seem to me the more "comfortable" solution for many players anyway.

But if your mod package ends up modifying thousands of files (IIRC the GWX installer contains over 2,500 files at 3 odd GB), then it makes more sense to use an installer.

I think JSGME already does the job really good for the installation process

Too a point yes, but why are there instructions on mods about going in to folders and manually deleting files if JSGME hansles all of i?
Most likely these are mods developed for older versions of JSGME. The latest versions handle the deletion of files (and subsequent return) quite adequately.

[swdw]

Thanks for the reply on both posts.

As Mentioned, I'm knocking ideas around here while trying to come up with something to make life easier for a new person like me. Jumping in w/ both feet- hope the waters only waist deep :D

Part of this was brought on by wading through the lists of suggested mods, only to find some were already included in other mods. Some stickies also link you to older versions of mods in their list.

And yes I'm thinking of using a combined mod of RFB, TM or TMlite and ROW as the base. Going through the mod lists of the first 2, it seems there are some necesarry changes in RFB which are not in TM- the Beery mods for example. Then add a few minimods to the list. I plan on going through the directory structures of RFB and TM to see where conflicts may arise, but will also use my install as a testbed. Of course that takes time.

Your idea of giving the activation order once in JSGME by numbering the folders is a good idea since some people don't RTM when installing mods. This allows the end user to remove and update individual mods as they are updated between releases of a "supermod".

Gonna go ponder on this some more- thanks for the advice.

[MONOLITH]

I sought permission from me to distribute it

JSGME = Best mod tool ever.

You sir, are a hero.

And unlike some, you did it without the desire for self importance. :|\\

Cheers.

[swdw]

JSGME = Best mod tool ever.

Cheers.
Yeah, I was impressed as soon as I saw it! :up::up::yep:

In fact, I'm giving it a try with Il2 1946 and Battle of Britain II. Things go well there and I'll be touting JScones app on their forums. ;) (Although the IL2 group can be a bit testy):roll:

[JScones]

I use it with BoB2 - it's how I added the summer terrain and the SPC beta.

Also CFS3 and the few installs that I have of it.

[AVGWarhawk]

JSGME is almost better than sex...I said almost JS! For slugs like me it is the most wonderful tool for mods I have found anywhere. Now, if anyone is raising a hand to improve what we got and add were he can then I back you 100%. Simplicity is my motto!:smug:

[ReallyDedPoet]

JSGME = Best mod tool ever.

Cheers.
Yeah, I was impressed as soon as I saw it! :up::up::yep:

In fact, I'm giving it a try with Il2 1946 and Battle of Britain II. Things go well there and I'll be touting JScones app on their forums. ;) (Although the IL2 group can be a bit testy):roll:

It is a great one :yep:


RDP

[leovampire]

The problem that is happening is people are not reading the read me files all of us moder's were asked to make for their work. If people would read what the modders take the time to write so they understand how it works and what it changes there would be a lot less problems.

Second Modder's need to double check everything they upload to make sure there are no coppies of anything and they are placed into folders that match the game folders EXACTLY in wording and Capital lettering and so forth!

People are so egger to get their mod out and get credit for it they forget to Dot the I's and cross the T's so there are problems.

So Modder's need to take care and pay attention to what they present and also give the readme file a name that matches the mod so it dosn't get over writen time and time again with something else from another mod and they get lost and can not be looked at again to see what it does if a reinstall must be done.

And the people downloading them need to take the time to read the read me's presented with the work.

Modders if the file structure for the game goes like this: Data / Textures / TNormal / tex Then do not make your file structure like this data / Textures / tnormal / Tex

Believe it or not there are times it can screw somthing up in the applying of a mod to the game. Please Dot the I's and Cross the T's

If you are doing a mod named New Plane's Loadout then make your readme say something like "Readme for New Plane's Loadout" that way there it will never be lost or over writen by another readme from another Mod.

[vanjast]

In fact, I'm giving it a try with Il2 1946....

AFAIK 1946 is not moddable (by the public at large - that is). 1C does not tolerate this and has put in encryption methods and 'changed file' detectors into their server software.

Unless you know something that all IL2'ers are dreading (this has happened).. or you must be dreaming somewhat.

Whereas SH3/4 developers have allowed an open door for modders as there are a lot of talented people out there. This saves them a lot of work and makes good business sense.

IL2 is a 'specialist' game/sim and SOW-BoB promises to be even better. This lot is aimed at a niche market of flight realism junkies (like me - IL2/SH3/4 only played at 100% etc..) of which there are plenty. Allowing Modding for this will destroy the online play where the 'fields must be even'.

[MONOLITH]

and SOW-BoB promises to be even better.

I'm looking forward to this one as well. :up:

[JScones]

In fact, I'm giving it a try with Il2 1946....

AFAIK 1946 is not moddable (by the public at large - that is). 1C does not tolerate this and has put in encryption methods and 'changed file' detectors into their server software.
I've used it with IL2 for enabling skins and other images (like medals and stuff).

[Excalibur Bane]

As we've discussed, the idea is good. The amount of work involved to cross reference every single mod to every other mod for conflicts and incompatiblities however, is enormous. The benefit would be mimimal in my opinion, as JSGME already warns you if another mod is going to overwrite the file of an existing mod.

Perhaps I'm the black sheep here, but one should have at least a basic understanding of a game's file structure before you go about modding it to your taste, it really isn't that hard to learn and it's very easy to take bits and pieces of larger mods to tailor them to suit your own tastes. Modding is not for new users really and is designed for more advanced users who are willing to invest a little time into learning how the game system works.

Granted, it would be great if one could simply download a self-extracting installer for every mod, but that really isn't practical due to the time required for the extra installer and what not. Modders are already working hard enough to make the great stuff on this forum, the end user needs to help themselves a bit as well, we can't expect them to do everything for us.

I believe the current system is quite satisfactory. It gets the job done nicely, the main problem is people don't bother to learn how to install mods. They simply jump in and expect everything to work with little or no effort on their part. It doesn't strike anyone else as odd that the Modding FAQ sticky is the least viewed sticky in the forum? That in and of itself, is a troubling sign.

Just my thoughts. ;)

[MONOLITH]

As we've discussed, the idea is good. The amount of work involved to cross reference every single mod to every other mod for conflicts and incompatiblities however, is enormous. The benefit would be mimimal in my opinion, as JSGME already warns you if another mod is going to overwrite the file of an existing mod.

Perhaps I'm the black sheep here, but one should have at least a basic understanding of a game's file structure before you go about modding it to your taste, it really isn't that hard to learn and it's very easy to take bits and pieces of larger mods to tailor them to suit your own tastes. Modding is not for new users really and is designed for more advanced users who are willing to invest a little time into learning how the game system works.

Granted, it would be great if one could simply download a self-extracting installer for every mod, but that really isn't practical due to the time required for the extra installer and what not. Modders are already working hard enough to make the great stuff on this forum, the end user needs to help themselves a bit as well, we can't expect them to do everything for us.

I believe the current system is quite satisfactory. It gets the job done nicely, the main problem is people don't bother to learn how to install mods. They simply jump in and expect everything to work with little or no effort on their part. It doesn't strike anyone else as odd that the Modding FAQ sticky is the least viewed sticky in the forum? That in and of itself, is a troubling sign.

Just my thoughts. ;)


Well Said.

*Salutes*

[Powerthighs]

Question: Does JSGME replace files or merge them?

In other words, if I install mod A that modifies foo.dds, then install mod B that also modifies foo.dds. will the final foo.dds be that of mod B, or will it merge the changes from both A and B?

[leovampire]

Question: Does JSGME replace files or merge them?

In other words, if I install mod A that modifies foo.dds, then install mod B that also modifies foo.dds. will the final foo.dds be that of mod B, or will it merge the changes from both A and B?

So if you have conningtower.dds and another mod with conningtower.dds the last one you activate will be used.

All JSGME does is safly add's new files to the game without losing the original game file's so they can be lator removed and still keep the games original set up without having to reinstall the game.

[MONOLITH]

Question: Does JSGME replace files or merge them?



Definately NOT a merge.

Last one activated overrides the previous one.

[Digital_Trucker]

It will be from mod b. The backup file for mod b will be the one from mod a and the backup file for mod a will be the original vanilla file. So, if you activate in the order you specified and then deactivate mod b, mod a will still be in place. If you then deactivate mod a, then the file will revert to the original vanilla file.

If, however, you deactivate mod a before mod b, your game will become FUBAR since the wrong backup files will be placed back into the game and you can end up with bits and pieces of mods being in game when you think you've reverted to plain vanilla game files.

Peronally, I prefer to resolve all conflicts outside of JSGME even if it means manually merging 3 or 4 mods. That way, if something is FUBAR two things happen

1) I only have myself to blame.
2) I can revert to plain vanilla game files by deactivating the merged mod.

Doing it this way also allows me to combine effects of mods on specific files (if I can fathom the changes necessary) and it helps me understand how the mod works and more about the game file structures.

[MONOLITH]

If, however, you deactivate mod a before mod b, your game will become FUBAR since the wrong backup files will be placed back into the game and you can end up with bits and pieces of mods being in game when you think you've reverted to plain vanilla game files.

I believe JSGME won't even let you do this. it tells you "you must de-activate mod B first".

[Digital_Trucker]

My bad. I guess I can stop thinking for the rest of the day, I learned something new.:damn:

[JScones]

If, however, you deactivate mod a before mod b, your game will become FUBAR since the wrong backup files will be placed back into the game and you can end up with bits and pieces of mods being in game when you think you've reverted to plain vanilla game files.

I believe JSGME won't even let you do this. it tells you "you must de-activate mod B first".
Correct. If mod B overwrites files from mod A, then JSGME will not allow disabling of mod A until mod B has been disabled.

Most, if not all, FUBAR problems attributed to JSGME are caused by users forgetting to disable mods before tweaking or updating. If users remember to do this, they will never bugger up their game through using JSGME. In fact, I am looking into visual ways to make it even harder to forget basic JSGME housekeeping...maybe a few versions away (my next version is a performance tweak, perhaps not too noticable with SH3 or SH4, moreso with other games. Then I might see if I can get some compression happening on the backed up files so as to utilise less disk space...)

Question: Does JSGME replace files or merge them?



Definately NOT a merge.

Last one activated overrides the previous one.
Correct. There's about 100 dedicated file merge tools already in existance that can take over from this point...or even the author of the mod. ;)

Peronally, I prefer to resolve all conflicts outside of JSGME even if it means manually merging 3 or 4 mods. That way, if something is FUBAR two things happen

1) I only have myself to blame.
2) I can revert to plain vanilla game files by deactivating the merged mod.

Doing it this way also allows me to combine effects of mods on specific files (if I can fathom the changes necessary) and it helps me understand how the mod works and more about the game file structures.
Exactly! People have asked why JSGME does not include a merge feature. Ironically, the people most asking for this are the modders that do know the files and understand their way around their game. Unfortunately though, I did not write JSGME for modders...I wrote it for *players*; that is, the general dude that just wants to d/l and add a mod without needing to know the game file structure or even what a dds file is. The dude who can, with one click, get rid of something he doesn't like without having to worry about what files were changed, or whether he'll need to do a full reinstall. Simplicity.

Start adding merging features and JSGME goes up a notch or two in complexity, and ease of use goes down proportionately. For the more savvy guy, as I wrote above, there's about 100 dedicated file merge tools already in existance that can do what they want, plus they have total control over the outcome.

But I might look at the "warning" screen message and see if any improvements can be made there. I'm happy to field suggestions from users on this...

[leovampire]

If, however, you deactivate mod a before mod b, your game will become FUBAR since the wrong backup files will be placed back into the game and you can end up with bits and pieces of mods being in game when you think you've reverted to plain vanilla game files.

I believe JSGME won't even let you do this. it tells you "you must de-activate mod B first".
Correct. If mod B overwrites files from mod A, then JSGME will not allow disabling of mod A until mod B has been disabled.

Most, if not all, FUBAR problems attributed to JSGME are caused by users forgetting to disable mods before tweaking or updating. If users remember to do this, they will never bugger up their game through using JSGME. In fact, I am looking into visual ways to make it even harder to forget basic JSGME housekeeping...maybe a few versions away (my next version is a performance tweak, perhaps not too noticable with SH3 or SH4, moreso with other games. Then I might see if I can get some compression happening on the backed up files so as to utilise less disk space...)

Question: Does JSGME replace files or merge them?



Definately NOT a merge.

Last one activated overrides the previous one.
Correct. There's about 100 dedicated file merge tools already in existance that can take over from this point...or even the author of the mod. ;)

Peronally, I prefer to resolve all conflicts outside of JSGME even if it means manually merging 3 or 4 mods. That way, if something is FUBAR two things happen

1) I only have myself to blame.
2) I can revert to plain vanilla game files by deactivating the merged mod.

Doing it this way also allows me to combine effects of mods on specific files (if I can fathom the changes necessary) and it helps me understand how the mod works and more about the game file structures.
Exactly! People have asked why JSGME does not include a merge feature. Ironically, the people most asking for this are the modders that do know the files and understand their way around their game. Unfortunately though, I did not write JSGME for modders...I wrote it for *players*; that is, the general dude that just wants to d/l and add a mod without needing to know the game file structure or even what a dds file is. The dude who can, with one click, get rid of something he doesn't like without having to worry about what files were changed, or whether he'll need to do a full reinstall. Simplicity.

Start adding merging features and JSGME goes up a notch or two in complexity, and ease of use goes down proportionately. For the more savvy guy, as I wrote above, there's about 100 dedicated file merge tools already in existance that can do what they want, plus they have total control over the outcome.

But I might look at the "warning" screen message and see if any improvements can be made there. I'm happy to field suggestions from users on this...

For us old timers it is no big deal adding new features to work with but for all the new guys simple is better. The more complicated it get's the more problems pop up for anyone new and we seem to be getting a lot of new guys on here latley.

So stick with what works JScones as far as JSGME.

I know if it haddn't been for your program I would still be reloading the game into my PC over and over again with Modding. So I for one am totaly happy with it. :rock:

[MONOLITH]

I'm happy to field suggestions from users on this...

I need to give it some thought, but a merge tool would be nice.

With SH4 in particular, a good example is the Menu_ini_1024_768 file.

It is central to the majority of mods, but since JSGME can only overwrite, it requires a lot of manual editing to merge 12 different mods together, that are otherwise seperate except for that one file.

The complexity will come in making sure that only the desired lines are overwritten, creating the merge. (Overwrite lines 10-15 from this mod, overwrite lines 40 to 45 from this mod, etc).

Obviously, a tool like this will be easier for some to use than others, but clearly also are things like the mini-tweaker. So, "who could use it" isn't a reason to not have one.

[swdw]

As we've discussed, the idea is good. The amount of work involved to cross reference every single mod to every other mod for conflicts and incompatiblities however, is enormous. The benefit would be mimimal in my opinion, as JSGME already warns you if another mod is going to overwrite the file of an existing mod.

Just my thoughts. ;)
I agree that listing the conflicts would be an en ormous task. What I'm putting together is a list of which minimods are included in the larger mods so people don't wonder if they need minimod A or B for ROW or TM

Because EB made me aware that there's a character limit on the posts, I'll make a downloadable pdf list that can be linked from his list and Gizmoe's.

BTW EB, I can write the installer for a modder, but using the idea JScones mentioned. Install to the mods folder with numbered folders for the install sequence (when applicable) and have them use JSGME to activate the mods. May be able to have it run JSGME automatically, but have to ask JScones some questions before trying that

Admittedly, part of the reason for doing this is for my own benefit, I was having a hard time figurig out what minimods I might want that weren't in RFB, TM, or ROW.

Here's a partial scrrenshot of the spreadsheet I'm working on. It's rough cuz it's a work in progress. (And yes I kmow it's Reflections on the water- one of the tings that's been fixed :D )
http://www.freedommastiffs.com/dogs/posts/modlist.png

[Excalibur Bane]

Ah, well. I thought you talking about all mods, not just the large mod packs. In that case, it would easy enough to do and I'll just pop a link to your PDF at the top of the list thread. Granted, I haven't used any of the three mods you've mentioned, but don't they have them listed in the readme that comes with the modpack?

[skwasjer]

A story
lol, that cracked me up :rotfl:

A snot-nosed young(?) upstart
Depends on what you call young :88)

On topic: merge based installers are only viable when using patch based approach. Iow. you require a version x.x, usually no other mods, and then patch in new data (be it copy/replace or inject new data in existing files using file offsets). The downside is exactly that, you require a specific version. There is really no alternative though. Coding some SH tool/installer - which does not require a specific base version - to insert data in any game file (while keeping other data intact) is extremely difficult and complex, and with some files even impossible.

[swdw]

Granted, I haven't used any of the three mods you've mentioned, but don't they have them listed in the readme that comes with the modpack?
Yes . . . but, this requires bouncing back and forth between each individual mod and the list instead of having all three easy to see and easy to reach from your list. Remember the idea is more for new people than the people who've been here for a while and know where to look to find things.

Hmmm, the thought just occured, what if we made a pdf of your list with the minimods listing the major mods they're in after each entry and put the links to the downloads in the pdf? Kind of a takeoff from the first idea I sent you. As an example they'd be able to look at individual mod entries in the pdf and see:

Submarine Propeller fix- icluded in RFB, TM 1.6, ROW

But they could click on the submarine propeller link from within the pdf to go to the forum topic or download page.

[Excalibur Bane]

Yes . . . but, this requires bouncing back and forth between each individual mod and the list instead of having all three easy to see and easy to reach from your list. Remember the idea is more for new people than the people who've been here for a while and know where to look to find things.

Hmmm, the thought just occured, what if we made a pdf of your list with the minimods listing the major mods they're in after each entry and put the links to the downloads in the pdf? Kind of a takeoff from the first idea I sent you. As an example they'd be able to look at individual mod entries in the pdf and see:

Submarine Propeller fix- icluded in RFB, TM 1.6, ROW

But they could click on the submarine propeller link from within the pdf to go to the forum topic or download page.

Well, that defeats the point of the list, I want it easily accessible, otherwise I would have moved it off-site already where I wouldn't have the same limitations by using it on a message board. Besides which, that would make it difficult to update if it was in a .pdf format. I never really cared for it much actually.

You may have to look back and forth, but it is doable and it really isn't that difficult. As I've said above, people should have a basic understanding of the game's file structure before they go about messing around with mods. I wouldn't expect a brand new player to be dropping in mods right off the bat without at least reading some of the modding stickies. :-?

[Uber Gruber]

But I might look at the "warning" screen message and see if any improvements can be made there. I'm happy to field suggestions from users on this...

mmmMMMM....how about modifying the warning screen message such that it lists the conflicting files (as it already does) and then offers the user an option to launch an external merge program.

At least this way it remains simple for those who simply want to download and install mods, yet offers the abiility to merge files to those that, well, want a merge facility.

Tuppence anyone ?