[REL] NSM3.3 compatible torpedo harcore mod

[Misfit138]

Finally was able to finish this. Did some major tweaking compared on my previous version. It should be much better now

Kept certain settings WernerSobe had set like chances for getting a circular runner. Ships act excatly like in his mod when they get a hit. Explosions do the same damage as in his mod too

Didn't test this but did a double check that everything were set right so it should work as intended. However, if you find any problems with this mod please report those into this thread so I can fix those ASAP


IMPORTANT
In order to make this mod work correctly, you need to delete contents of RichSavedGames. Remember to enable this mod before deleting any saves or you deleted your saves all for nothing!

If you do not like this mod and want to use the orginal NSM 3.3 torpedo setup, disable torpedo hardcore mod and delete the save games

http://files.filefront.com/NSM33+hardcore+torpedozip/;8569324;;/fileinfo.html

[WernerSobe]

ill add the link to NSM page. tnx

[rcjonessnp175]

sorry for Noob question, but what exactly does this mod change in regards to the torpedos, compared to the Nsm mod??:up:

[tater]

It has the NSM changes in terms of damage (all that matters for NSM), but it makes them fail more often.

tater

[Misfit138]

ill add the link to NSM page. tnx

Great, thank you very much! :)

sorry for Noob question, but what exactly does this mod change in regards to the torpedos, compared to the Nsm mod??

Tater covered this well enough but more info about this mod as it is based on it

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113031&highlight=torpedo+hardcore

[Dogster]

This is just a preliminary observation: When I play in career mode that don't malfuntion as much as they do when I play single mission.

I did the natural sinking mission: fired six, 3 duds, 1 premature detonation, 2 hits.

Playing in career, one patrol so far: fired 18, 13 hits, 5 misses.

I'm not sure if that means anything.

[Misfit138]

Thanks for reporting this Dogster :up:

I'm gonna take a look into this although I bet you were just having a good luck. Have had a couple of similar type of cases myself in the training missions

[tater]

What are the dates of your single missions vs career play?

The hardcore dudd mod does improve torp quality over time...

tater

[mrbeast]

This is just a preliminary observation: When I play in career mode that don't malfuntion as much as they do when I play single mission.

I did the natural sinking mission: fired six, 3 duds, 1 premature detonation, 2 hits.

Playing in career, one patrol so far: fired 18, 13 hits, 5 misses.

I'm not sure if that means anything.

Had exactly the same thing in the career my torps are pretty reliable, in fact too relaible, but in single missions they are very buggy.

I ususally use the NSM test mission as a general test mission too when I download a new mod.

[Dogster]

What are the dates of your single missions vs career play?

The hardcore dudd mod does improve torp quality over time...

tater

The date is 6/12/42 out of Pearl, USS Growler, deployed to Hokkaido. I think the natural sinking mission test is 4/1/43

[tater]

They should be pretty crappy in 1942, that's for sure.

tater

[fire-fox]

will this work with TM?

[Misfit138]

will this work with TM?

Can't think any reasons why this wouldn't work. Just overwrite the Torpedoes_US.sim file and everything should be just fine

[fire-fox]

will this work with TM?

Can't think any reasons why this wouldn't work. Just overwrite the Torpedoes_US.sim file and everything should be just fine

Tar:arrgh!:

[iw281201]

I had the same problem with the torpedos. In the single missions they are very realistic based on the time of year. In the campaigns this does not occur. The error rate is still the same as when the mod wasn't applied. Every once in a while you get a dud torpedo, as opposed to fairly regularly.

I'm a realism fanatic, so this is an important mod. I need more duds in the campaign! :)

thanks,
ian

[Misfit138]

Ok, so there seems to be a problem with duds in the campaing. I still haven't looked into this that much simply because I'm currently lacking the time

Volunteer testers would be great 'cause testing is the part which requires the time I do not have at the moment

[Misfit138]

I think I figured out the cause of the problem some of you are having. And did this all by just sitting on my ass right in front of this screen :lol:

So, many of you have reported that duds do not occur as often in the campaign as they do in the single missions. That's most likely because of the save.tmp file. If my memory doesn't fail me, that was the problem with bringing the lightnings back into the game. They did work in single missions but not in the campaign and this was somehow related to temporary save files.

Could anybody give more details about fixing this lightning issue? The same trick most likely is going to solve this problem too

[leovampire]

I think I figured out the cause of the problem some of you are having. And did this all by just sitting on my ass right in front of this screen :lol:

So, many of you have reported that duds do not occur as often in the campaign as they do in the single missions. That's most likely because of the save.tmp file. If my memory doesn't fail me, that was the problem with bringing the lightnings back into the game. They did work in single missions but not in the campaign and this was somehow related to temporary save files.

Could anybody give more details about fixing this lightning issue? The same trick most likely is going to solve this problem too

I had to delete the entire save folder for SHIV in my game and start over from scratch after I had added the files to the game so it would read and save the changes once the game was started up again and then when it recreated the save file everything worked for me just fine.

[Misfit138]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up leovampire! :up:

I had only deleted the save.tmp and replay.tmp files but left the save folder :doh: No wonder I didn't saw any lightnings!

But now that I know this, I'm gonna try to test this sometime during this week. I wanna make it completely sure that this solves the problem so anybody having this lacking of duds problem, do not delete your save files just yet

[leovampire]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up leovampire! :up:

I had only deleted the save.tmp and replay.tmp files but left the save folder :doh: No wonder I didn't saw any lightnings!

But now that I know this, I'm gonna try to test this sometime during this week. I wanna make it completely sure that this solves the problem so anybody having this lacking of duds problem, do not delete your save files just yet

Add the files before You start the game again other wise deleting the save folder did nothing. The files have to be present in the game directory before it is started and a new save file is built by the game okay?!

You will notice it takes a long time for the game to load because it makes it read every file the game has in it to build a new Save folder base for the game which means there is a cache file being created for the game.

[mrbeast]

Has anyone noticed their torps running too deep? I've scored about 6 probable hits recently with this mod on and all of the torps ran deep, too deep, deeper than the RL malfunctioning torps. Now I know they are supposed to run somewhere between 10 or 15feet deeper but mine must be running something like 20+ feet deep they are under running even when I've got the depth setting at its shallowest setting.

[Misfit138]

So, cleaned up my previous saves and loaded the game with mods like this included. Did a quick initial test with Mark 10 torpedoes in December 2nd 1941. In all of these sets, I set the exploder to contact and depth to as minimal as possible

Set no. 1 Set no. 2
- 1. Deeprunner - 1. Dud
- 2. OK - 2. Dud
- 3. OK - 3. Dud
- 4. Dud - 4. Dud

Set no. 3 Set no. 4
- 1. OK - 1. OK
- 2. OK - 2. Deeprunner
- 3. Dud - 3. OK
- 4. Dud - 4. OK

So far, these results are pretty much the same as I've been getting in RFB's Torpedo Training mission but I'm gonna take a deeper look in the coming weekend

[Wilcke]

MisFit,

Using your mod, I am seeing a good number of duds, shot a whole loadout at a large invasion force and had at least 3-4 duds out of a Salmon class sub.

To busy squirming around DD's and DC's to get any idea of what went wrong but it gives the right atmosphere of frustration! Especially when the solution was spot on .....and you get the DUD message! Well done man...well done!

Thanks to CCIP also!!!!

Wilcke

[mrbeast]

BTW I'm getting plenty of duds too and the mark 10 torps have a very good feel to them better than the mark 14's but still a little dodgy.:up:

My problem is that the depth error on the mark 14's seems too extreme. As I said in my last post I'm getting them running under targets when set to run at depths less than 5 feet under the surface. The mark 14 almost 100% of the time ran under its set depth by around 15 to 10 feet or so. Therefore if I set my torps to run at 5 feet they should not be running under a target with a draft of 27feet.

[Misfit138]

Wilcke, thanks for the positive feedback but this mod is orginal work of CCIP and all I've done is to made it compatible with Natural Sinking Mechanics ;)

mrbeast, I'm gonna take a good look into Mark 14 torpedoes during the coming weekend but first I want to make sure that is there really a problem with duds not working in campaign in some cases

[Wilcke]

Right, so many mods and so many hard working folks to thank, thanks to CCIP!

Wilcke

[mrbeast]

Thanks Wilcke.:up:

[Misfit138]

Since there has been some reports that duds work as they should in the campaign, I cleaned my saves once again, loaded NSM without torpedo hardcore mod and ran the game. After I had sank the Mogami (I'm doing this almost everytime I run SH4... :lol:) I exited the game and activated Torpedo Hardcore mod and ran the game once again. Now my situation is pretty much the same as those who are running this mod

The results with Mark 14

1. Ok
2. Ok
3. Ok
4. Ok
5. Ok
6. Ok

The date was december 9th 1941 and these torpedoes should be a piece of junk but every single one of them worked perfectly. Didn't even bother to do another test with this setup because this clearly shows that this isn't correct

Now, I cleaned my saves and ran the game. As I ran the game at this time, it creates a completely new cache based on the mods I had now enabled. This time the base was completely clean for torpedo hardcore mod

The results with Mark 14

Set 1 Set 2
1. Ok 1. Premature
2. Premature 2. Circle Runner
3. Ok 3. Dud
4. Ok 4. Ok
5. Dud 5. Ok
6. Dud 6. Unknown (Game crashed before this reached it's target...)

Although I made only a few tests all in all, there is a clear difference when you look at the results with different setups

Would be great if somebody would confirm these results

[baxter]

I don't have the exact numbers, but I know that before deleting my saved game files I was rarely getting a dud, and since doing that they are common. It solved my problem with this mod.

[Dogster]

I'm getting more duds any premo's too. On this current patrol, starting 6/7/42(its not over yet): I've fired 17 shots. 9 hits, 3 duds, 5 misses. 2 of the misses attributed to running to deep.

I believe this mod is one of the single most important mods in the game. Thanks for your hard work.

[Misfit138]

I'm getting more duds any premo's too. On this current patrol, starting 6/7/42(its not over yet): I've fired 17 shots. 9 hits, 3 duds, 5 misses. 2 of the misses attributed to running to deep.

I believe this mod is one of the single most important mods in the game. Thanks for your hard work.

Did you cleaned up your previous saves before running the game with this mod activated?

@baxter, thanks for the confirmation! :up:

Just need a few more confirmation before I add any more info at the first post ;)

[leovampire]

I have tryed to figure out a way around it in more ways than one but nothing has worked other then a complete deletion of that damm save file.

What a pain in the Butt that cache file is for getting some mod's to work properly.

But glad it is working out for you now Misfit138

[Misfit138]

I have tryed to figure out a way around it in more ways than one but nothing has worked other then a complete deletion of that damm save file.

What a pain in the Butt that cache file is for getting some mod's to work properly.

But glad it is working out for you now Misfit138

Well, I better take a word of a pro ;)

What's really bothering me now is that nobody has reported any these kind of problems before. After all, this mod has been around for sometime already...

Anyways, I'll add the required info in the first post of this thread

[leovampire]

I have tryed to figure out a way around it in more ways than one but nothing has worked other then a complete deletion of that damm save file.

What a pain in the Butt that cache file is for getting some mod's to work properly.

But glad it is working out for you now Misfit138

Well, I better take a word of a pro ;)

What's really bothering me now is that nobody has reported any these kind of problems before. After all, this mod has been around for sometime already...

Anyways, I'll add the required info in the first post of this thread

And when I do not see that change the first thing I did was get rid of the file and let a new one build.

There is no way to tear it appart but I believe the rich saved games carry's over stuff from one to another.

But having to start a new game to make things work properly is absolutly nut's.

There is one setting I am trying to do that would make the see through crew stop but the rich save is refusing to allow it in the game with out a crash.

So I said screw it and restarted after I saved the SHIV save file then did a new campaign and sure enough the game accepted the new global settings I made and no more crash.

Just wanted to prove it to myself that I was right. Of course I said screw the adjustments for now and put back my old save file. Seeing I am going to have to start from scratch again once the new Patch comes out.

[Dogster]

I attacked a convoy off the coast of Honshu 1/15/42: 3 premo's, 4 duds, 1 miss, 2 hits. That is a 70% failure rate. I believe your mod is working correctly.

Once I deleted the save folder and started a new campaign. This mod is great, I said this before: This is the single most important mod in this game.

Thanks again.

I'm using TM 1.2, NSM 3.3, and your NSM 3.3 Hardcore Torpedo Mod.

[baxter]

I agree...this mod is extremely important to making the sim realistic. Thanks for creating it!

[Misfit138]

I'm glad that it's working now. Gonna start looking into tweaking the deeprunners. From time to time it really feels like they are actually running too deep... :88)

[Dogster]

Results of War Patrol 1(1/3/42 - 2/5/42) are:

5 - duds
3 - prematures
7 - misses (6 had to be running deep)
5 - hits

I believe historically torpedos' ran 11 ft deeper than set anyway.

Good Job with this mod!

[Jhereg]

Hi Misfit, yeah they do run way to deep sometimes.

I just had a clean shot at the Mogami at the beginning of a career and all four were set to the most shallow (3ish ft) and all four I watched run a good 8-10 ft under the keel:huh:

If I use the shallowest depth, realistically even crap early war torps should have hit.

Anyhow thanks for all the hard work.

[Misfit138]

Based on the research I've done in game, there are 3 options when it comes to torpedo running depths. 1. Normal 2. Roughly about 10-20 feets deeper than set 3. Roughly about 20-30 feets deeper than set. The last one gives me a little headache. I have my doubts about this being historically correct but I'd like to keep it that way

Why? Simple, we know about this problem from the very beginning of the war thus giving us an advantage compared to RL situation

If I use the shallowest depth, realistically even crap early war torps should have hit.

Yeah, and this is why I use the shallowest depth :88) and this is also the reason why I wouldn't want to change this depth thingy

But now I'm asking this from you, should I fix the current situation or leave it as it is?

[Dogster]

Leave it as it is, life sucks then my torpedoes run too deep. Oh well.

[Jhereg]

Tis a fine line Misfit, we do have the pre-knowledge that the torps are running deep.

There has to have been a skipper or two who after firing a salvo set to what he believed to be an accurate depth, upon seeing a salvo of four run under the target, cranked his settings to shallow to ensure hits.

I think in Sims there should be as little abstractions as possible to make us fight like it was, and if we do our job correctly we are rewarded with realistic outcomes.

Another major flaw in the game is the speeds at which ships depart the scene of a torpedo attack. They just do not run away fast enough. If this alone were fixed we could earn more realistic tonnages per patrol/carrer.

I would say fix it, but this is just my preference.:up:

PS: Did you ever get a new monitor, I just could not handle trying to enlighten our friend anymore:damn:

[mrbeast]

I think I would fix it too, in RL some skippers tried running their torps at shallower depths and achieved better results. So if you do this in your game your not cheating or anything like that. One or two torps no doubt ran at extreme depths due to error but they werte a very few of the total fired.

Maybe you should go the ROW route, and leave one version alone for those who want the deeper running torps and make another corrected version for the rest?

[Misfit138]

Hmm, now that I think about this it might be just the perfect solution to just lower the occurance of those extreme deeprunners. Historical accuracy and general gameplay would be even better in this case. Also, by this way I don't have to make different versions of this mod

PS: Did you ever get a new monitor, I just could not handle trying to enlighten our friend anymore:damn:

Nope, I'm still thinking about which monitor to buy! :lol: Besides, now that I have this Nvidia card, I've been getting into Open Falcon again and been thinking about getting a proper flight setup. HOTAS Cougar, pedals and things like that. Don't really have the money to all of those

[booger2005]

I'm confused, do I have to delete anything manually or just delete all saves from within the game?

[Wilcke]

I deleted ALL saved games and just for kicks I deleted everything in the RichSaved folder also. Some say you can delete the whole directory and SH4 will just create a new one on the next execute.

[Bilge_Rat]

Tis a fine line Misfit, we do have the pre-knowledge that the torps are running deep.

There has to have been a skipper or two who after firing a salvo set to what he believed to be an accurate depth, upon seeing a salvo of four run under the target, cranked his settings to shallow to ensure hits.

I personally think we should keep some extreme deep runners, as Misfit suggested, to make the game interesting, since we overcompensate with shallow settings.

In my very limited unscientific testing so far, basically two runthroughs of the torpedo training mission which is usually a turkey shoot, 1st time: 2 prematures, 0 hits; 2nd time: 3 hits, 1 miss, so the torpedoes are not impotent.

Historically, some skippers figured out during their first patrols in december '41 that the torpedoes were probably running too deep and started setting the settings shallower right away as a result. I would have to recheck Blair on that point, although the problem was not officially discovered and fixed until aug. '42.

[mrbeast]

Tis a fine line Misfit, we do have the pre-knowledge that the torps are running deep.

There has to have been a skipper or two who after firing a salvo set to what he believed to be an accurate depth, upon seeing a salvo of four run under the target, cranked his settings to shallow to ensure hits.

I personally think we should keep some extreme deep runners, as Misfit suggested, to make the game interesting, since we overcompensate with shallow settings.

In my very limited unscientific testing so far, basically two runthroughs of the torpedo training mission which is usually a turkey shoot, 1st time: 2 prematures, 0 hits; 2nd time: 3 hits, 1 miss, so the torpedoes are not impotent.

Historically, some skippers figured out during their first patrols in december '41 that the torpedoes were probably running too deep and started setting the settings shallower right away as a result. I would have to recheck Blair on that point, although the problem was not officially discovered and fixed until aug. '42.

I think virtually all the skippers who managed obtained hits, set their torpedos to very shallow settings after it was discovered how poor the type 14's depth control was. They just omitted to say so or lied on their patrtol reports. The magnetic exploder didn't work at all it was not only buggy but a flawed concept, hence it was dropped by the KM and RN very early on in the war. Only the USN persisted in its use largely due to internal politics and the paper fantasy world that bureaucrats have a tendancy to live in.

I think keeping the type 14's to average historical depth errors is a more authentic way to go. Certainly there were some torpedoes that ran at extreme depth errors like 20ft but they were rare (not 4 torps in a row like I encountered once) like circle runners or extreme gyro angle errors. They were not characteristic of the errors encountered by USN sub skippers and so I would prefer not to have them in my game. The contact exploders on the otherhand should be very buggy and this is where any handsight that SH4 players might have can be compensated for.

[baxter]

I'm having a problem that possibly has to do with this mod. I'm in an S-18 class boat early in the war, and have so far found that every torpedo I've fired has passed under the target. I'm setting the depth to the most shallow possible setting and yet they pass right under the ship. I know that one of the defects is for torpedos to run too deep, but should it happen this often? These are Mark 10 torpedos (used on the S boats only) known to be worse than the later ones? Any feedback would be appreciated.

I'm using NSM 3.3 and the compatable hardcore torpedo mod as well as TM 1.62 and ROW. I've fired a total of 16 torpedos at two different ships, both of which were fairly small ships and appear to have shallow drafts.

Thanks.

[Digital_Trucker]

Baxter, I thought I was having the exact same problem:damn: until the 11th torpedo I fired actually hit the ship:sunny: and bounced off (it was a freaking dud!):rotfl: . If this is the way it actually was (and I believe it was) I can see how frustrated the skippers must have been. I think they call this "immersion". I am now as frustrated and unhappy as the real skippers must have been with their fish.

[baxter]

Thanks, Digital Trucker. It's good to hear someone else has had the same problem. The first ship was a small destroyer that damaged itself (?!) dropping depth charges, was sinking in the stern and couldn't move. Even though I'm new to manual targeting I knew I could hit a stationary target, or so I thought. Twelve torpedos later I hadn't had one hit. After the first four missed, I started watching from the external camera and watched the next 8 travel under the ship. The second ship was a small freighter on my next patrol. Same thing...all but one would have been hits but instead passed right under the target. Since the merchant wasn't armed I persued it and eventually sunk it with the deck gun...it took over 100 rounds but at least I have one ship to my credit for this career. If as you say this is intended to provide the frustration of those early patrols it's working well!

[Jhereg]

The MK 10's should at most be four feet to deep. They were significantly more reliable depth keeping wise then the MK 14. Also the exploder was more reliable.

[baxter]

I'll see how the MK 10's work on a larger target, if I ever find one...:-?

[Peto]

Only sick and twisted skippers would come back to port and complain that they aren't getting enough duds :shifty: .

Personally, I can't wait to install this mod when I get home so I can be more frustrated :damn: .

:rock:

[Misfit138]

Yeah, it seems that this mod needs some tweaking to make Mark 10 torpedoes more reliable but I'm gonna start looking into it after the patch is released

[leovampire]

Yeah, it seems that this mod needs some tweaking to make Mark 10 torpedoes more reliable but I'm gonna start looking into it after the patch is released

About the save game's. It seems the RICH Saved games are the problem for the carry over in data. What I did to test this. I went to port then did a save. Added the file's to the game I wanted to try out.

Deleted the Save's in the Rich Saved game folder. Then started the game up and loaded my Port save. When I did a new save from there it added all the data changes and made 1 new rich saved game file and when i left port all of the changes I made where there without any problems. So it is the Rich saved games that seem to have the cache file structure for the game.

I lost nothing doing this everything else was the same in the save game all medals promotions everything was there. And BOY did the game start to load faster until all the rich save's start building up again over time.

[FIREWALL]

First of all I want to thank you very much for your mod and all the work it took to make it.

It will make a fine addition for realism.:up:


My only concern is why you would release a mod without testing it yourself .


I have the utmost respect and admiration for all you modders and it is well
known on this forum that I will bash anyone who disses or otherwise gives a modder a hard time.

I just want to know why you didn't test it your self first.

I won't go into all the reasons why that is a wise thing to do.

And I hope you won't think I am being critical of your hard work.

That is not my intention.

[Misfit138]

@leovampire, thanks for the heads up. Never really quite figured it out myself what was causing this whole problem

@FIREWALL, Well, sure I've tested this mod but there is always things you miss. And given the fact that this isn't my orginal work, I though that certain issues were solved in it's previous stages ie. the need to delete your RichSavedGames folder contents to get this mod work as it's meant to. And another thing is that sometimes people seem to get quite different results than I've had in my tests... :ping:

[Misfit138]

So, the patch is out and I'm doing some tweaking to make Mark 10 torpedoes a bit more reliable. Testers?

[cothyso]

me, pretty please.

[Misfit138]

PM sent

Keep it comin' people!

[cothyso]

email address sent.

[leovampire]

I think in the 1.4 patch they got it to reflect changes better that are made to files. Might be a good idea in your new work to see if it now accepts your rework without having to delete anything in the saves first to test the new 1.4 patch work.

[Misfit138]

I think I can confirm that this has been fixed in the patch. Just did a couple of tests without deleting any saves created without any mods enabled

But I'm gonna take a better look into this later

[Fincuan]

I tested this a couple of days ago, and at least changes made in Torpedoes_US.zon get loaded even mid-patrol in 1.4. Didn't try with the .sim :up:

[Misfit138]

It seems that now with latest patch applied, you no longer need to delete your saves. Did a completely clean install yesterday, applied the 1.4 patch and loaded the game without any mods. Then applied Torpedo Hardcore mod and there's a clear difference in torpedo reliability

But now comes the fun part. The torpedoes seem much reliable in single missions than in campaing...

Gotta do some more testing :ping:

[leovampire]

It seems that now with latest patch applied, you no longer need to delete your saves. Did a completely clean install yesterday, applied the 1.4 patch and loaded the game without any mods. Then applied Torpedo Hardcore mod and there's a clear difference in torpedo reliability

But now comes the fun part. The torpedoes seem much reliable in single missions than in campaing...

Gotta do some more testing :ping:

Campaign layers every single thing in the game comes into play. So you will always get differn't results. The campaign layers keep track of the torpedo reliability % factor and when they do and do not happen vs time of the war.

The single missions do not reflect this unless it is set up in the mission it's self.

So it might be a good idea to have more testers working with it in the campaign layers to see results faster.

Plus there is a chance that the campaign layers missions might have something set up in them that changes things. Like you can have a certain weather condition for an entire mission and so forth.

[Dogster]

Misfit,

I believe the mod is working fine, about a 65-80% failure rate for me. One thing I have noticed ( and this doesn't make sense), but this is what happens: For example, if I'm stationed at Pearl and deployed to the East China Sea and I stop at Midway to top off my tanks (refit), my torpedos become 100% reliable. If I bypass the refit and go straight to my deployment area, my torpedos malfunction at the % rates described above. I know this doesn't make sense, but it happens. I've tested this theory 4 times now.:-?

[AVGWarhawk]

Is this ready for downloading? Looking for the hardcore torp mod only.

[SteveW1]

seems the download link for this is not working, can anybody provide a link to it please.