Noob question - Support tactics

[Elphaba]

Hi

I'm trying to get into DW / SC and I only play the US Subs.

I have terrible trouble with certain missions in the stock campaign and custom campaigns... and it's always when I am supporting a surface group transitioning thru a hostile area of water.

As a Seawolf driver, I'm used to crusing at 5kts listening passively, but if I do that on these missions, then the carrier group overtakes me and they get blown to bits, but if I stonk along at 25 / 30kts to get way far out in front, I find a group of torps up my tailpipe.

I've read a few fiction books, am I supposed to do a bounding type approach? Run full steam ahead for a few miles, then come to a crawl, listen, then if no contacts, bomb along again for a few more miles? That's similar to bounding manoeuvers that infantry do, but they do it in tandem, whilst one's running the others listening / watching / covering...

Being a lone sub, no-ones is gonna cover my behind while I'm going full steam ahead.

So what other tactics should I use so that I can stay way out in front of the carrier group, but also listen to what's up ahead?

The only other though I had was going active, but then it becomes a shooting / dodging match and I can't imagine real multi billion dollar subs risking everything like that for real...

Any thoughts?

PS Sorry if this has been asked before, but I couldn't find it.

Thanks.

Elphaba

[OneShot]

The maneuver is called "Sprint and Drift" and its basically what you described ... you drive along at higher speed (but below cavitation speed) for a few nautical miles before slowing down and listening for a few minutes and then do it all over again.

Personally when I do such a maneuver I go deep (below the layer) for the sprint part and set my speed to best tactical/listening speed at the end of the run before slowly comming up through the layer and then head back down when its time to sprint again.

Cheers
OS

[Janus]

Good question, I wondered that myself.
How many miles or minutes is a sprint? Too few and the group you are protecting catches up with you, too long sprints and you might miss serious stuff going on or draw too much attention from enemies...

I am sure it depends on the actual situation and scenario but generally speaking how long should each sprint and listen pahse be?

[Molon Labe]

Good question, I wondered that myself.
How many miles or minutes is a sprint? Too few and the group you are protecting catches up with you, too long sprints and you might miss serious stuff going on or draw too much attention from enemies...

I am sure it depends on the actual situation and scenario but generally speaking how long should each sprint and listen pahse be?

That's going to depend on the speed of the group you're supporting and how long it takes you to make a full scan once you've slowed down. What is essential is that you maintain the position assigned in your orders; or, none was provided, a position far up enough so that you can shoot at a target before they shoot at the formation (for a 16+ knot formation, you'll want at least 30miles vs. Akulas or 10nm vs. Kilos because they will not be able to hear any torps shot at them.) I would recommend sticking an appropriate range circle around the lead ships and sprinting out a few miles ahead of that. When you enter the next sprint, check your position relative to the circle. If you're behind it, sprint further ahead; if you're ahead of it, you can afford to sprint a bit less.

Going back to the original question, I just want to say OneShot got it exactly right; using sprints and tactical speed, with the sprints always below the layer, is the way to go. The deep sprints minimize the range you'll be detected at. You might still get shot at, but that's not such a bad thing. If he shoots at you, he'll have given his position away before he's had a chance to attack his objective. You can minimize the chances of being picked off by dropping a UUV to detect torpedo and missile (LW/Ami only) launches. If ASW missiles are the threat, you can also move your escort position back a bit to the SAM umbrella of the escorts: within 20nm of an FFG in stock DW or within...wait, does anyone know how far out a LW/Ami Tico or Burke will effectively engage a SUBROC? I guess that says something about how often I worry about it... Most aggressor sub drivers are reluctant to shoot SUBROCs in this situation anyways, because there are usually helos or worse around that are going to see the launch on radar.

[Elphaba]

Great help here guys! Thanks for that.

I've never used a UUV before, but one is used in the fictional book I'm reading (infact it's on the page I'm currently at!!) but what you've said makes a great deal of sense...

Not I need to play with one to see how to use it.

Just a quick response though to the Sprint & Drift - what happens when either the water is too shallow or there is no layer. I know of the thermocline that is predominate in almost all seas - it's about a couple of hundred feet right, but I'm not convinced it exists in DW or SC.

At least when I've launched a temp bouy from the sonar station to find the layer it's just been a slow slope with no change...so I've taken that as no real layer.

Am I wrong?

Thanks again. I really wish I could contribute like all you guys here and in the SH3/4 forums do, but alas I'm a noob and just getting to grips with it all myself.

Elphaba

[Molon Labe]

Just a quick response though to the Sprint & Drift - what happens when either the water is too shallow or there is no layer. I know of the thermocline that is predominate in almost all seas - it's about a couple of hundred feet right, but I'm not convinced it exists in DW or SC.
If the SSP is designated bottom limited, then detection ranges are going to suck anyways. Just go deep enough that you don't cavitate. If the SSP is designated surface duct or CZ but the bottom is too shallow for a layer to exist where you are, then you're pretty screwed. You're going to have to deal with being detectable to a much greater range than you want to be. The good news is the enemy sub will be too, and you don't have to check both sides of the layer so you can afford to go slower in the sprints since your scan time will be shorter.


At least when I've launched a temp bouy from the sonar station to find the layer it's just been a slow slope with no change...so I've taken that as no real layer.

Am I wrong?
If a layer is present, you'll see a horizontal line and a number where it says "layer depth."

Don't worry about being a noob. You're asking good questions, so you'll move up pretty quickly.

[LoBlo]

Also try to remember the wash "out speeds" of your sonars. If your fleet SOA is less than your sonar wash out speed you may be able to go without any totally blind sections of your sprint and drift..... also note that you probably don't need to drift for very long. Just enough to slow down to listening speed and scan through the NB sonar for suspect frequencies. If you know the enemy that your hunting (say for instance russian subs) then ignore the 60Hz signals you hear and pay attention to the 50Hz signals (and vice versa if your looking out for US subs). If you know *specifically* what your looking for, then knowing the frequency of the enenmy subs will save you a lot of ambiguity and uncertainty, though be on the look out of surpise sub classes built into the scenario by the author (just for kicks). For example, if I know I'm listening for russian subs, the I like to have the Victors, Kilos, Akulas, and Oscar's sonar frequencies handy for quick reference to be able to prioritize which contacts gain my attention.

If you get a suspcious contact it may be worth coming to comms depth, raising the radio and linking it to the link. The fleet DDGs, CGs, and FFGs should send a helo its way to try to identify in the event that they already have a bird in the air and can get there before you. Be advised that your fleet ASW aircraft may drop a torp on any enemy sub so a friendly "torp in the water" happens (always a confusing picture... whose's torp and where's it going?).

I generally like to stay a least 90min to 2hours in front of my fleet for adequate time to localize and plot potential enemy contacts before the next sprint. For example, if your fleet is at 25knots then 25nm is 1 hour infront... 50nm is 2hours in front. If you start with anything less than that then you may have to question the validity of the scenario itself (how can you protect a fleet when they started you in the middle of their pack). Also note that a submarine "supporting a fleet" does not neccessarily mean escorting it directly. Many submarine/fleet concepts have the subs days or even weeks before the fleet gets to a location to search for SSKs, mines, problems long before they become a direct threat the the fleets path.

[Molon Labe]

While it's true that US doctrine is to deploy subs well in advance of the fleet, escort missions since the stock scenarios in 688I have been placing subs in position to provide tactical support. Being inconsistent with US doctrine does not make those scenarios any less valid, especialy in situations were assets are limited. Being able to place a sub well in advance of a formation is a luxury afforded by having other routes of approach being covered by other assets or otherwise eliminated. I'm not aware of any scenario where the sub starts "in the middle of the pack" and is unable to provide support (but one stock SC mission came pretty close).