Is there any possible way to sneak up on a convoy? TM 1.6

[nx02nx02]

HI there. I have a question about Silent Hunter 4 and trigger Maru 1.6

It seems no matter what I do day or night silent or not, no matter how deep or how silent I am always, always magically detected.

I imagine half of the fun of the game is getting into a firing position without being detected. (Sneaking up on them) and the first sign they have that you are there should be a torpedo impact.

The way the game is right now this just simply doesn't work and it takes alot away from the game. I play on 90% or sometimes 100% realism and I want the game to be as hard as possible but not to be detected unrealistically.

I have tried coming in at an angle, silent, 1 knot, 0 knots, deep, shallow and every other possible way and I am always detected in a cheating way.

Is there a mod or a fix or some way to sneak up on a convoy without being detected?

Or if anyone here knows how to sneak up I sure would like to know how. Thanks for reading and I do love the game and mod, I am just trying to understand how to play better. Thanks.:up:

[NefariousKoel]

I lowered the AI sonar sensitivity a bit in the sim.cfg file. I lowered mine to 0.07 or 0.08 from the stock 0.1, can't recall right off.

It helps but the big issue is that when you're in front of a Destroyer and within a certain distance - they always turn on their active sonar. Unfortunately this was something the Devs added in the 1.3 patch. I thought the detection was great in v1.2 with the sonar sensitivity modded upwards (instead of down) and they would start pinging only if they heard you on sonar.

Now they just automatically let loose like they magically know you're close and go active even if they haven't detected you. :damn:

[mrbeast]

IIRC allied escorts would ping pretty much constantly with their ASDIC sonar while on a convoy, contiually sweeping the sea. The chances of detecting a sub on hydrophones alone are very small unless the escort was right on top of it and it was going at flank speed. The sound from all those merchants would easily mask a sub travelling at low speed.

As to the IJN I'm not that sure because they only generally used small convoys until late on, they might have more of a chance with hydrophones. But I still think that they would be sweeping with active, something the game doesn't model correctly IMO it just seems to turn on the pings when you are in front of a destroyer.

So really it should be the other way round active first to aquire a target then passive later to listen quietly while it has a sub cornered. But active all the time, so you could hear it in the distance on hydrophones, not just suddenly when the AI uses its 6th sense to decide that there might be a sub around.

As to approach tactics I would maintain a bow on attitude until I needed to set up a shot, travel only at about 2 knots max at periscope depth, only taking very short peeks at the target and if you need to close distance at speed try to go deep and keep under a thermal layer to mask the sound of your screws.

[leovampire]

There seems to be a semi passive radar on the DD's that pick up the scope. Only raise it to readjust your heading or to line up a shot and keep it as low as possable. After the shot is made put it back down until your Torpedo clock says they are close to hitting then check keeping the scope low on results.

Stealth is everything.

I have had DD's come after me with the scope all the way up then back off as soon as it goes down when they are far enough away not to hear me.

[boatfull]

http://www.newline-shop.com/wb/lnttaclelm.jpg

Be Vewy Vewy quiet.:lol:I try to get ahead of a convoy go deep very deep then wait, rise to scope level
and fire.
I call it a Chew & Screw

[mrbeast]

I've had that happen to me too. I managed to sneak into Taipeh harbour at night in my current career (USS Triton), past the patrol vessel (was one of Taters converted tug boats). I popped up for a look, he flashed a search light at me, and started towards me. I down scoped and kept silent eventually he justy circled and couldn't locate me. Unfortunately for the Japanese at that point his AI gave out and, due to dodgy pathing, managed to get stuck behind a dock :roll:.

So I put two torps in a small tanker, which burst into flames and sank and my last two into a large freighter but it wouldn't go down :nope:.

[FAdmiral]

With 1.3, if you enter the DD's sonar cone above the thermal, he is gonna ping you, no doubt about it. SO, stay out of that cone. If you are below the thermal,
I have seen it go either way (experience=yes,inexperience=no) The DD's experience of the crew makes a BIG difference. Sometime I see the DD get a
ping return, so I immediately change depth, speed up and turn. Usually he will
drop close but not on me. I try to always steer towards the zig-zaging targets
so at the last moment I came come to PD, shoot and go deep again. This works
the majority of the time but if the DD is just to close, I go for another target...

JIM

[leovampire]

while on the sound station or you will have every DD around after you! I did that once OMG did I regret it. And didn't save for several game days so there went the task force attack I was trying for.

[jdkbph]

There seems to be a semi passive radar on the DD's that pick up the scope. Only raise it to readjust your heading or to line up a shot and keep it as low as possable.

Have we been able to confirm whether or not the height of the scope actually makes a difference in the game?

I had assumed all along that it did... but the reason I question this now is the other day I was fired upon by an escort while submerged, with the scope partially lowered so it was under water, but not completely in down in the well.

Now it's possible - but not likely given the smooth sea state at the time - that the scope broke the surface and was spotted. But it got me thinking. Maybe the game, for detection purposes, simply sees the scope as either fully lowered... or not. Or perhaps the up/down cut off point is the surface itself? Either of which would mean that an inch above water is as good as mile...

Thoughts?

JD

[Doolan]

Interesting observation.

I have to say that patch 1.3 (not necessarily TM) has increased the escort capabilities a bit too much. Yes, it makes the game challenging, and yes, I know you can escape escorts most of the time by diving under the thermal layer or evading the sonar cone. Still, accounts are full of escort captains pretty much guessing where their DCs went and stating how difficult it was to actually hit something, while IJN destroyers post-1.3 patch are mean killing machines that have little or nothing to fear from us.

I'm still shocked at the DD that hit me with a charge yesterday in its first run while I was under the thermal layer, rigged for silent running and doing a circle with full rudder to port. Sure, they can get lucky, but they seem to get lucky too often.

The opposite happens to planes imho. Only once I've been sunk by one, and the way they aim they're actually manageable if you aim well with the AA. Shouldn't they be fearsome opponents?

[mrbeast]

Does the game model any of the effects of clear water at periscope depth, ie your sub being visible even though its submerged on very calm days or is it just a graphics effect and has no bearing on the AI spotting you?

I've often thought that its strange that aircraft won't attack you when you're at periscope depth on a calm day and clearly visible from the air when you look on the external camera.

[leovampire]

for the Ships and Plane's control what they can see when and where around them.
Graffic's has nothing to do with it that is just for us as players.

For instance the sensors are set up where it is hard for planes to see us at night so they dont fly at night anymore and in high sea's it is hard for them to spot the wake so they don't always see you and that is also controled in the visual sensors node's. There are also settings that stop them from seeing to far away in thefog state's. As long as the game register's these conditions they can not spot you.

I think so many people wanted the scope's spoted by ships the Dev's did it in patch 1.3 it is just a little too sensitive and can be seen too far away in any condition from 0 mps wind's to almost 8 mps wind's and wave state's.

[NefariousKoel]

I'd rather the devs had set the AI escorts to randomly switch between listening and pinging. Barring that, I'd rather it be like 1.2 when they'd go active if they heard something.:hmm:

[tater]

Jap DC capability isn't specifically modeled at all, frankly. In RL, jap DCs could only be set at 30m depth intervals, for example.

The problem is that in RL, the japs droped loads of DCs, but poorly. In game they seem to only drop within certain "firing solution" parameters so if they drop at all, they tend to be better aimed than they should be.

One thing that really has not been properly tested, IMO, is the interaction of AI skill vs AI sensor settings.

TM dumps all the elites, but it also concentrates on competant and veteran AI.

I think If AI 1 and 2 was not entirely stupid, we might see better variability in AI attacks. The problem in the past has been that AI 1 was so clueless they'd not shoot back on the suraface at your subs half the time.

MIght be interesting to really dial UP the sensors, then set the AI lower (as a test).

[mrbeast]

I'd rather the devs had set the AI escorts to randomly switch between listening and pinging.:hmm:

I remember years ago in Aces of the Deep the escorts would pretty much do that pinging and patroling around convoys, felt a bit more authentic than in SH.

[Doolan]

The problem is that in RL, the japs droped loads of DCs, but poorly. In game they seem to only drop within certain "firing solution" parameters so if they drop at all, they tend to be better aimed than they should be.

Tell me about it... I'm probably the unluckiest captain to ever set sail, but I've found three or four DDs that basically snipe me with their DCs.

"No no, a bit to the left, we want to hit the bearded guy, not the one with the glasses"

[Digital_Trucker]

"No no, a bit to the left, we want to hit the bearded guy, not the one with the glasses"


:rotfl: Feeling a bit paranoid, are we?:rotfl:



just kidding, BTW

[Snuffy]

Since starting a new career with Vanilla, 1.3, and TM 1.6+ I have not had an opportunity to bump into a convoy, or a task force for that matter. Most of my contacts have been single ... maybe the occasional double ship type.

I'm hoping one day to get a good convoy so I can see if I'm any good or not. :yep:

[leovampire]

All I have found so far is invasion forces with little troop carrier's and lots of DD's

But a total of 10 ships down with only minor leaks and deck gun damage.

Northern Luzon to north western Luzon area's. But had to go for a reload in ammo and fuel to do next mission orders.

[Seadogs]

Since starting a new career with Vanilla, 1.3, and TM 1.6+ I have not had an opportunity to bump into a convoy, or a task force for that matter. Most of my contacts have been single ... maybe the occasional double ship type.

I'm hoping one day to get a good convoy so I can see if I'm any good or not. :yep:

Try a carrier in early '42 and head out to the Luzon straight, maybe a tad to the west. I swear I couldn't surface long enough to recharge batteries. I got so paranoid I thought all the BB and CL TF's were stalking me.

As far as sneaking on convoys and TF's I have not found it a problem. However, if I do get detected it is much harder to shake them. Pretty much time to break the engagement at that point. Maybe fire a quick few from the stern on the way out depending on breathing room.

And I would't think of pulling off something like that in shalllow water.

[GerritJ9]

Tried every approach I could think of to get close to convoy undetected (in this case a single mission), even approaching on silent mode without using the scope even once but doing everything using the chart only, depth 150 ft- but on external view three destroyers would dash up when well outside asdic range and head unnerringly to the spot where I was. On the last occasion I tried, the same happened, went up to periscope depth and got one of the destroyers, but the other two were impossible to get rid of.
Have all the IJN escorts been turned into Bungo Pete clones?????????? IJN A/S forces weren't that good........... not even close.

[leovampire]

when the DD's start to get close drop a decoy at Pariscope Depth in the water and keep your speed just under the 1knt mark and head under the thermal layer they have always gone to the decoy first as long as you are under the thermal layer AFTER you drop the decoy for me this works well when they are just too good!

Then after some distance from the DD's go back up to attack depth and only peak with the scope to adjust heading and try not to go fast enough for the DD's to pick you up over the decoy.

I have also used them after torpedo's hit and they come looking around to make it easier to hide once they come in. If they pick it up before picking you up they stick with that decoy for a while!

[Seadogs]

Tried every approach I could think of to get close to convoy undetected (in this case a single mission), even approaching on silent mode without using the scope even once but doing everything using the chart only, depth 150 ft- but on external view three destroyers would dash up when well outside asdic range and head unnerringly to the spot where I was. On the last occasion I tried, the same happened, went up to periscope depth and got one of the destroyers, but the other two were impossible to get rid of.
Have all the IJN escorts been turned into Bungo Pete clones?????????? IJN A/S forces weren't that good........... not even close.

Hmm... maybe the single mission has a ramped up crew level? Or is it the convoy training mission?

[GerritJ9]

Tried it with several single missions, including "Manila bound", "NLuzon intercept" and "Solomons encounter"- the result is always the same so the mission itself doesn't influence things, I would think. Oh well, back to the drawing board............:damn:

[tater]

It would be interesting to test some things with a mission that you've really tried hard to master, but have had no luck. Take the saipan convoy (whatever it is called). The AI are all set to 3 (veteran) in the TM version I believe (AI=4 would make them all bungo pete). You could do a replace on the text file and change all the crew quality = 3 to =2, then try again. It might be interesting to see how crew quality affects the issue.

TM tends to compress the warship crews into 3s, with a few 2s, and nothing else in the whole game. If the 2 quality is at all capable, it might be better to look at having more of an AI skill mixture as a mod to soften the ASW capability while preserving the ability of SOME units to do better. I have a test mod that creates 2 AI_Visual sensors, one that is what you see in stock 1.3, another that is toned down a bunch for use on merchants, etc. A similar route might be the ultimate solution. You make a bunch of variant sensors so that while most are toned down, here and there you get the ship that is able to spot the scope at 3000 yards.

tater

[FAdmiral]

I have no super mods installed, only some tweaks to how close I see air &
ships traffic. I make my own test patrols so I know exactly if I encounter my
own set-up convoy/TFs or they are spawned from the layers. My observations
to date with Warships all set to Veteran, large Merchants/Tankers set to Competent, Med. merchants set to Novice and small ones set to poor: (1.3)
No pings if I am out of the sonar cone, PD & silent the DDs pass me by at 1200
yds while scope is up. At night, surfaced, clear sky, slight white-cap seas, bow to DD, he will see me at 1500 yds. Under the thermal, going at silent, I have yet to be fully detected. I don't think I can get a better AI than that. Date of Patrol:
Jan. 1943. As soon as I get this patrol fully done, I will put it up for others to
see if they get the same results with what mods they have installed. The patrol
is called "Darwin Adventure" and is a mixture of just about everything....

JIM

[capcup007]

Originaly by Tater

The problem is that in RL, the japs droped loads of DCs, but poorly. In game they seem to only drop within certain "firing solution" parameters so if they drop at all, they tend to be better aimed than they should be.
I don’t mind being detected so much. That’s what they are supposed to do. The only thing I would like te get rid of is the almost pinpoint accuracy. While using TM1.6 I edited the [Sonar] section within the sim.cfg one more time:

Detection time=20
Loose time=10

Sometimes the AI was way of, dropping DC at the wrong spot, at other times being real close with DC landing on the deck. It also happened it made a pass without dropping at all.
I used a simple testmission for this with a sub facing a single level-3 DD and have absolutely no idea how this will work out on a “real” mission.
In the past things didn’t allways work out as at first expected, so I don’t know if I will keep these settings, but it is worth the try. A weaker but unpredictable enemy can be just as dangerous than a strong but predictable one.