View Full Version : Blue on blue incident in Afghanistan
The Avon Lady
08-24-07, 06:45 AM
U.S. bomb kills British soldiers in Afghanistan (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070824/ts_nm/afghan_britain_dc_3)
:oops: :cry:
Happy Times
08-24-07, 07:59 AM
RIP :cry:
bradclark1
08-24-07, 08:43 AM
Bad news. Usually friendlies calling in CAS mark their position so just this kind of incident doesn't happen. Why didn't the pilot confirm positions? Unless the pilot just totally flubbed the bomb run. The news report really doesn't say anything. I guess more information will come out later.
Tchocky
08-24-07, 08:44 AM
Ah, that's horrible.
bigboywooly
08-24-07, 08:57 AM
Bad enough them dying over there in the first place but by friendly fire :nope:
I suppose all the facts wont be known till after the investigation
If ever
If anything like the last blue on blue there will be no repercussions for the pilots
Perhaps that needs to change to wake them up a bit
Dmitry Markov
08-24-07, 09:01 AM
RIP :cry:
Are those who make these mistakes learning from them?
R.I.P
PS: I am not having a pop at America just wondering that's all.
SUBMAN1
08-24-07, 09:40 AM
Not again! Maybe our pilots are getting tired, and maybe the Brits should pick up their slack for a bit? What the ratio of American sorties vs UK? I'm guessing 50 to 100 to 1, so there is probably 100 times more likelyhood that this will happen to the US instead of the Brits, but why do we always keep hitting the Brits when it happens??!!! Uggh!
-S
bradclark1
08-24-07, 10:06 AM
Not again! Maybe our pilots are getting tired, and maybe the Brits should pick up their slack for a bit? What the ratio of American sorties vs UK? I'm guessing 50 to 100 to 1, so there is probably 100 times more likelyhood that this will happen to the US instead of the Brits, but why do we always keep hitting the Brits when it happens??!!! Uggh!
-S
What's the ratio of aircraft? It doen't matter, but it's no use speculating until they come out with more information.
Maybe our pilots are getting tired, and maybe the Brits should pick up their slack for a bit?
Coming up to our sixth year there, I think everyone is getting tired.
My prayers and condolences to the families of the servicemembers that died that day, and all others since. However, this isn't the first time this has happened, to both US and Coalition servicemembers . . . and this wont be the last. They pilot, the forward air controller, and the individual giving the bomb coordinates all share the blame, and I am sure that they are not happy with their actions . . . and will be reprimanded for their actions . . . but chances are coordinates were given, someone along the chain of information gave the coordinates of the coalition forces as the target, rather then as information for the pilot to be careful for . . . and thus the event which occured.
Regardless of whether it was a coalition or a US aircraft which made the bomb run, doesn't matter, in the end someone made a mistake, and will have to live the rest of their lives with that regret, and probably sometime of that life at a Brig or at Fort Levenworth.
This is why it's important to have slow moving, heavily armored CAS designed aircraft to do these type of missions rather then high speed, lightly armored fast movers . . . gives more time for the pilots to have eyes on the ground to assess the situation . . . to provide the support . . . and to more accuratly put the munitions on the target. And an F-16 is not a slow moving, CAS designed aircraft, by any stretch of the information.
Furthermore, the end of the A-10 era will, if steps are not taken now, will remove a valuable CAS/COIN asset from the commanders on the ground. Unless Armed Helicopters take up that role, I dare say more events like this will occur at a higher rate then experienced now.
Thus, bring back aircraft with the same mission specifications as the OV-10 . . . and continue the service life of the A-10 . . . speed doesn't always mean life . . . sometimes taking your time, means saving a life below you. :up:
SUBMAN1
08-24-07, 11:17 AM
I agree - keep the old hog around. Fast movers have their place for heavily fortified areas - get in get out fast, but for CAS, how do you beat the A-10? It can take a hit from a SAM and still fly home as it proved a couple times in Bosnia - the plane may be a total loss, but the pilot goes home.
I'll see if I can find an article on it, since the two on this page are out of date:
http://www.a-10.org/a10-news.html
I had to include this - Here is an example of indirect fire kill over Bosnia!:
07.04 - 02:00 - Podgorica
French Mirage 2000. Missile missed but pilot ejected anyway.
This is why it's important to have slow moving, heavily armored CAS designed aircraft to do these type of missions rather then high speed, lightly armored fast movers . . . gives more time for the pilots to have eyes on the ground to assess the situation . . . to provide the support . . . and to more accuratly put the munitions on the target. And an F-16 is not a slow moving, CAS designed aircraft, by any stretch of the information.
Furthermore, the end of the A-10 era will, if steps are not taken now, will remove a valuable CAS/COIN asset from the commanders on the ground. Unless Armed Helicopters take up that role, I dare say more events like this will occur at a higher rate then experienced now.
Thus, bring back aircraft with the same mission specifications as the OV-10 . . . and continue the service life of the A-10 . . . speed doesn't always mean life . . . sometimes taking your time, means saving a life below you. :up:
I see your point but in practice the results have been the same; a USAF A-10 obliterated a few of our boys last year with its cannon. Perhaps the new A-10C with all its digital upgrades is more promising.
RickC Sniper
08-24-07, 01:47 PM
With soldiers on the ground carrying GPS devices there should be much less of this happening.
Sadly, we will probably never get told who is to blame here. In the past, the guys on the ground were as likely to be at fault as the pilots.
Salute to the Brits. Any losses are sad, these even more so.
I agree that the old Warthogs are best suited for this.
Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.:nope:
Again at the expense of UK servicemen.:nope:
Despite the RAF's continuous close air support of US troops in both Iraq and Afganstan the UK has yet to bomb any US forces. The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.
Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?
Friendly fire is anything but!
Still something to learn America?
I think so.
From the small article linked to here you make those comments?
You make alot of ASSumptions...But I will consider the source.:roll:
Tchocky
08-24-07, 02:32 PM
More info..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6962071.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6962255.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6962926.stm
Steel_Tomb
08-24-07, 03:14 PM
Not again! Maybe our pilots are getting tired, and maybe the Brits should pick up their slack for a bit? What the ratio of American sorties vs UK? I'm guessing 50 to 100 to 1, so there is probably 100 times more likelyhood that this will happen to the US instead of the Brits, but why do we always keep hitting the Brits when it happens??!!! Uggh!
-S
How dare you, the troops, on all sides are tired. But the British Army is streched to the limits, and they do a damned hard job out there. Just because the RAF isn't in the same numbers as USAF units doesn't mean that the brits are "slacking". My dads been out to Iraq three times now and worked his arse off every time. So don't even think about saying that the british forces are slacking. I'm sorry if I sound really up front and rude but I just don't like it when people start accusing the british armed forces of "slacking" etc. Especially with the poor standard of equipment they are using (apart from things like the EF2K and new type 45 of course).
Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.:nope:
Again at the expense of UK servicemen.:nope:
Despite the RAF's continuous close air support of US troops in both Iraq and Afganstan the UK has yet to bomb any US forces. The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.
Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?
Friendly fire is anything but!
Still something to learn America?
I think so.
From the small article linked to here you make those comments?
You make alot of ASSumptions...But I will consider the source.:roll:
Well, the only BoB incidents from the Afghanistan/Iraq I've heard have been done by the US. Simpson from BBC, the Canadian (orwas he a Brit too, cant remember) and now this.
But what can one do to it? Nothing! We all make mistakes and in situations like these are, it just happens. Like the friendly fire incident during the Gulf war, where the two AH-64s destroyed an M113 & Bradley just because wind had drifted their choppers further away as was intended. :nope:
Jimbuna
08-24-07, 04:09 PM
Even though everyone accepts all BoB are unintentional I believe they are becoming so frequent peoples patience is waining with those in the military who don't seem able to lessen the number of incidents :nope:
Tchocky
08-24-07, 04:10 PM
Hmph. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article2323959.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797093)
It's the Times, unfortunately.
ASWnut101
08-24-07, 04:30 PM
How sad. Unfortunatally, mistakes are made, and there are consequences (as shown). :x
After looking at this, I'm beginning to wonder if the bomb dropped was laser guided.
A somewhat recent bug had been discovered with the man-portable laser guidance units (the thing that the soldier points/"paints" at the target to have a bomb dropped on it). Apparently, when the batteries in the unit run out and are replaced, the laser somehow defaults to the emitter's location, rather than what the emitter is pointing at.
It's already happened in Afghanastan to one of our own. Poor guy quickly changed the batteries while the bomb was in flight, didn't realize the bug, and the bomb dropped on his location.
With soldiers on the ground carrying GPS devices there should be much less of this happening.
Again, it depends on the weapon used. A GPS reading would be next to worthless if the weapon used was laser guided or unguided.
07.04 - 02:00 - Podgorica
French Mirage 2000. Missile missed but pilot ejected anyway.
:rotfl:
Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.
Poor accuracy my ass.
The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.
Do you have any proof of that? Or are you talking out of your butt?
Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?
Or does this say something about the reliablility of current equipment issued to our sides? Or suggest that the brits could have been at fault? Of course, someone is probably going to unload on me for saying the latter, but it's a damn fine possibility right up there with "poor accuracy."
I think that Brad said it correct early in this thread. We will most likely not know until they release more information.
Why did my text go bold?
micky1up
08-24-07, 05:24 PM
amazing how its never a uk on uk incident it always involves a US force when will they ever learn
and its all about attitude not equipment the american forces have always been too gung ho
bigboywooly
08-24-07, 05:49 PM
1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) A-10 during Operation Desert Storm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Storm) attacks British armoured personnel carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_personnel_carrier) killing nine British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992) - USS Saratoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saratoga_%28CV-60%29) during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)destroyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer) Muavenet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_%28DM-357%29) killing 5.
1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994) - In the Black Hawk Incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hawk_Incident_%28April_1994%29), two U.S. Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force)F-15E Strike Eagles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15E_Strike_Eagle) involved with Operation Provide Comfort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Provide_Comfort) shot down two U.S. Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army)UH-60 Black Hawks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UH-60_Black_Hawk) over northern Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)F/A-18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18) dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)F-16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16) pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_82_bomb) on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live-fire_exercise), killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident).
2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_Special_Forces) convoy, killing 15. BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Simpson) were injured. The incident was filmed. [11] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/photo_gallery/3244305.stm)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Patriot missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_missile) shot down in error F/A-18C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Hornet) Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFA-195) 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Patriot missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot) shot down a British Panavia Tornado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado) GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
British Royal Marine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines) Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Engineers) checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Faw_Peninsula), Iraq.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-4)
British Challenger 2 tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2_tank) came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2886715.stm)
190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron%2C_Blues_and_Royals_friendl y_fire_incident_-_March_28%2C_2003) when a pair of American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)A-10s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) from the 190th Fighter Squadron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron) attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_and_Royals), killing Lance-Corporal of Horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance-Corporal_of_Horse)Matty Hull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matty_Hull), during the invasion of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq). 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004) - Pat Tillman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman), famous American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan).
2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) soldier Mario Lozano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Lozano) is suspected of killing Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_people) intelligence officer Nicola Calipari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Calipari) and wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliana_Sgrena) in Baghdad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad). Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire.
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) troops opened fire on a Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed. 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006)
During Operation Medusa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Medusa), two U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.)A-10 Thunderbolt IIs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) strafed their own NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO) forces in southern Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan), killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Anthony_Graham), and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban) stronghold along the Arghandab River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arghandab_River). Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
A U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.)machine gunner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_gun) accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard) Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar), in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan). 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007)
American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. [13] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6346901.stm)
U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.[14] (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070612/ap_on_re_as/afghan_violence)
One of a pair USAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF)F-15s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15) called in to support British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British) ground forces in Afganistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afganistan) dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Anglian_Regiment), and injuring two others.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-5)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire
A day when blue on blue ends, would be a day in paradise, until images on the HUD or visor projector are painted blue and red like in video games . . . and every soldier has a transponder that enables that (which hopefully the opposing side wont be able to use to their advantage) . . . then it will still occur.
Sad the realities of the fog of war . . . and the speed of modern combat.
1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) A-10 during Operation Desert Storm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Storm) attacks British armoured personnel carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_personnel_carrier) killing nine British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992) - USS Saratoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saratoga_%28CV-60%29) during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)destroyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer) Muavenet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_%28DM-357%29) killing 5.
1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994) - In the Black Hawk Incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hawk_Incident_%28April_1994%29), two U.S. Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force)F-15E Strike Eagles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15E_Strike_Eagle) involved with Operation Provide Comfort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Provide_Comfort) shot down two U.S. Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army)UH-60 Black Hawks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UH-60_Black_Hawk) over northern Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)F/A-18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18) dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)F-16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16) pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_82_bomb) on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live-fire_exercise), killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident).
2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_Special_Forces) convoy, killing 15. BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Simpson) were injured. The incident was filmed. [11] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/photo_gallery/3244305.stm)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Patriot missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_missile) shot down in error F/A-18C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Hornet) Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFA-195) 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Patriot missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot) shot down a British Panavia Tornado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado) GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
British Royal Marine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines) Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Engineers) checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Faw_Peninsula), Iraq.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-4)
British Challenger 2 tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2_tank) came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2886715.stm)
190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron%2C_Blues_and_Royals_friendl y_fire_incident_-_March_28%2C_2003) when a pair of American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)A-10s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) from the 190th Fighter Squadron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron) attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_and_Royals), killing Lance-Corporal of Horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance-Corporal_of_Horse)Matty Hull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matty_Hull), during the invasion of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq). 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004) - Pat Tillman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman), famous American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan).
2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) soldier Mario Lozano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Lozano) is suspected of killing Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_people) intelligence officer Nicola Calipari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Calipari) and wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliana_Sgrena) in Baghdad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad). Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire.
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) troops opened fire on a Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed. 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006)
During Operation Medusa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Medusa), two U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.)A-10 Thunderbolt IIs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) strafed their own NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO) forces in southern Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan), killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Anthony_Graham), and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban) stronghold along the Arghandab River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arghandab_River). Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
A U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.)machine gunner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_gun) accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard) Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar), in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan). 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007)
American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. [13] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6346901.stm)
U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.[14] (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070612/ap_on_re_as/afghan_violence)
One of a pair USAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF)F-15s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15) called in to support British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British) ground forces in Afganistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afganistan) dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Anglian_Regiment), and injuring two others.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-5)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire
Could it be possible that there is just better documentation of US blue and blue incidents . . . remember Wikipedia is what is submitted . . . and what is editted out. It is suppose to be neutral . . . but there are dozens of articles where there is an obvious bias . . .
. . . so lets start with the US bashing . . . that's what this leads to no? That the US is evil, and the root of all evil in modern societies around the globe . . . :nope:
Lets see this what this is, an unfortunate accident. People will be blamed, people will spend time in brigs and prisons . . . and these events will still occur . . .
waste gate
08-24-07, 07:14 PM
A tragedy.
War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.
William Tecumseh Sherman
Unfortunately some will not allow cruel victory, and will allow slow defeat.
What I'm about to say will not sit well with some.
If you want your soldier sons to be saved war must be total from the start until all restence is destroyed. Friendly fire may never be removed from the battlefield but prolonged danger can be minimized.
This is obviously very sad, but unfortunately, it is what happens when bullets, bombs, missiles and military aeroplanes are flying around while troops are advancing, and nobody should be under any illusion that these things will not continue to happen, as long as wars do.
'Friendly fire' incidents have always happened in wars, (the first RAF Spitfire shot down in the Battle of Britain was nailed by an RAF Hurricane). Most bomber forces in WW2 used to work on the basis that up to ten percent of the force would be lost in collisions while forming up before they even set off for their target, and a proportion of the lower formations would be hit by bombs falling from aircraft flying above them. There are countless other examples I could quote too. But of course with the internet, news satellites etc etc, incidents such as these are simply more widely reported these days.
Although it often seems that the US appear to have more friedly fire incidents than other forces, I think it's fair to say the likelihood that they will, is in large part due to their numbers in comparison to other coalition forces. So proportionally, they are probably no worse than any other army in this. It's true the US gained a reputation for incidents of this nature in WW2, when they did indeed hit many Allied troops, but one has to remember that they were there in larger numbers than anyone else then as well. And everybody in the UK was glad of their numbers when they were putting ten landing craft onto the beaches at Normandy for every one the British landed there, weren't they? Incidents of this nature are the price you pay for that numerical superiority.
And yes it is true that some American servicemen have what is euphemistically termed a 'gung-ho attitude', but so do some UK servicemen and probably every other nation as well. However, the newspapers do not report stories about examplary soldiers, because that is 'boring', they only pick up on things which will outrage readers and sell newspapers. It is this kind of crap, poor editorial and journalistic integrity, which made me decide to leave the newspaper industry some years ago and write freelance instead.
When the newpapers report on all the successful missions as much as they do on the ones which go 'tits up' I'll have a bit more respect for them.
Note that, as someone queried, with regard to the A10 Thunderbolt II (or Warthog as everyone calls it) and what will happen when it retires, you might be interested to know that a contract has recently been awarded, which will see these aircraft extensively serviced, Boeing winning the contract to 're-wing' them (for example) to extend their service lives. Since the A10 is one of the best close-support aircraft ever, hopefully this, at least, will help to minimise the chances of this sort of tragic occurence.
:D Chock
micky1up
08-25-07, 12:50 AM
1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) A-10 during Operation Desert Storm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Storm) attacks British armoured personnel carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_personnel_carrier) killing nine British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992) - USS Saratoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saratoga_%28CV-60%29) during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)destroyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer) Muavenet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_%28DM-357%29) killing 5.
1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994) - In the Black Hawk Incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hawk_Incident_%28April_1994%29), two U.S. Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force)F-15E Strike Eagles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15E_Strike_Eagle) involved with Operation Provide Comfort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Provide_Comfort) shot down two U.S. Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army)UH-60 Black Hawks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UH-60_Black_Hawk) over northern Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)F/A-18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18) dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)F-16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16) pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_82_bomb) on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live-fire_exercise), killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident).
2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_Special_Forces) convoy, killing 15. BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Simpson) were injured. The incident was filmed. [11] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/photo_gallery/3244305.stm)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Patriot missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_missile) shot down in error F/A-18C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Hornet) Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFA-195) 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Patriot missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot) shot down a British Panavia Tornado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado) GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
British Royal Marine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines) Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Engineers) checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Faw_Peninsula), Iraq.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-4)
British Challenger 2 tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2_tank) came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2886715.stm)
190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron%2C_Blues_and_Royals_friendl y_fire_incident_-_March_28%2C_2003) when a pair of American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)A-10s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) from the 190th Fighter Squadron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron) attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_and_Royals), killing Lance-Corporal of Horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance-Corporal_of_Horse)Matty Hull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matty_Hull), during the invasion of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq). 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004) - Pat Tillman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman), famous American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan).
2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) soldier Mario Lozano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Lozano) is suspected of killing Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_people) intelligence officer Nicola Calipari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Calipari) and wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliana_Sgrena) in Baghdad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad). Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire.
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) troops opened fire on a Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed. 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006)
During Operation Medusa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Medusa), two U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.)A-10 Thunderbolt IIs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) strafed their own NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO) forces in southern Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan), killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Anthony_Graham), and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban) stronghold along the Arghandab River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arghandab_River). Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
A U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.)machine gunner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_gun) accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard) Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar), in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan). 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007)
American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. [13] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6346901.stm)
U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.[14] (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070612/ap_on_re_as/afghan_violence)
One of a pair USAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF)F-15s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15) called in to support British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British) ground forces in Afganistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afganistan) dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Anglian_Regiment), and injuring two others.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-5)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire
Could it be possible that there is just better documentation of US blue and blue incidents . . . remember Wikipedia is what is submitted . . . and what is editted out. It is suppose to be neutral . . . but there are dozens of articles where there is an obvious bias . . .
. . . so lets start with the US bashing . . . that's what this leads to no? That the US is evil, and the root of all evil in modern societies around the globe . . . :nope:
Lets see this what this is, an unfortunate accident. People will be blamed, people will spend time in brigs and prisons . . . and these events will still occur . . .
absolutley not blue on blue is not a regular occurence with uk forces FACT its quiet clearly an attitude thing with the US and its not US bashing its just a plain fact and like i said its not about equipment its the people behind it you had lesser equipment in vietnam and still had a significant amount of friendly fire incidents
ASWnut101
08-25-07, 10:08 AM
and its all about attitude not equipment the american forces have always been too gung ho
absolutley not blue on blue is not a regular occurence with uk forces FACT its quiet clearly an attitude thing with the US and its not US bashing its just a plain fact and like i said its not about equipment its the people behind it you had lesser equipment in vietnam and still had a significant amount of friendly fire incidents
:damn: :roll:
micky1up
08-25-07, 12:10 PM
and its all about attitude not equipment the american forces have always been too gung ho
absolutley not blue on blue is not a regular occurence with uk forces FACT its quiet clearly an attitude thing with the US and its not US bashing its just a plain fact and like i said its not about equipment its the people behind it you had lesser equipment in vietnam and still had a significant amount of friendly fire incidents
:damn: :roll:
yes banging head against wall waiting for the US forces to learn from their mistakes or do you deny that your blue on blue record is even there ?
micky1up
08-25-07, 12:19 PM
War/CampaignPercent Casualties (U.S. Military only)* World War II 21% Korea 18% Vietnam 39% Persian Gulf 52% Panama .08% Haiti 0% Iraq 41% Afghanistan 13% * Both fatal and non-fatal (These figures do not include murders or deliberate/accidental self-inflicted wounds/fatalities)
and you think these figures are acceptable ?
ASWnut101
08-25-07, 12:52 PM
yes banging head against wall waiting for the US forces to learn from their mistakes or do you deny that your blue on blue record is even there ?
I think you've got me mistaken there. Mabye I should put it this way: If I said what I meant by the smiles, then I'd proably be banned. So let's just leave them at that: Smiles.
Proof I can publish here?
Unfortuantly not.
Taking out my butt?
I have served in excess of 18 years in the RAF.
All of it on front line aircraft.
Operated alongside US forces for most of my career to date.
Returned from the Gulf in the last 6 weeks. (Al Udeid and Basra).
So no I'm not talking out of my butt.
Really? How long have you been over there? (on your last tour of duty)
For someone who's been over there, you sure were quick to badmouth the people you faught along with...
War/CampaignPercent Casualties (U.S. Military only)* World War II 21% Korea 18% Vietnam 39% Persian Gulf 52% Panama .08% Haiti 0% Iraq 41% Afghanistan 13% * Both fatal and non-fatal (These figures do not include murders or deliberate/accidental self-inflicted wounds/fatalities)
and you think these figures are acceptable ?
First, what are those figures of? And where did you get them?
And I never said it was "acceptable."
micky1up
08-25-07, 06:40 PM
they are figure from the friendly fire website that collate all FF incidents from ww1 onwards
although you didnt say it was acceptable you took an offence at critisism aimed at the US forces it wasnt aimed at the US as a country
ASWnut101
08-25-07, 07:18 PM
they are figure from the friendly fire website that collate all FF incidents from ww1 onwards
A website that says nearly half of all casualties in the War in Iraq are from friendly fire? And that 39% of casualties in Vietnam were Friendly Fire? I hardly consider that accurate.
although you didnt say it was acceptable you took an offence at critisism aimed at the US forces it wasnt aimed at the US as a country
I'm going to take a stab at what you said, as I can barely understand what you are trying to say (seriously)...
No, I didn't take offence at the critisim aimed at the US Forces. I took offence at the insults aimed at the US forces. I took offence at the people who decided to use this accident as a thing to bash US Forces about. People who make the automatic assumption that it had to do with attitude, not the countless other possibilities that could actually be the scenario that happened.
bradclark1
08-25-07, 07:35 PM
I don't know why people have to jump to conclusions positively or negatively when the report on the incident hasn't even come out yet. Sheath the knives.
1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) A-10 during Operation Desert Storm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Storm) attacks British armoured personnel carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_personnel_carrier) killing nine British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992) - USS Saratoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saratoga_%28CV-60%29) during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)destroyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer) Muavenet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_%28DM-357%29) killing 5.
1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994) - In the Black Hawk Incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hawk_Incident_%28April_1994%29), two U.S. Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force)F-15E Strike Eagles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15E_Strike_Eagle) involved with Operation Provide Comfort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Provide_Comfort) shot down two U.S. Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army)UH-60 Black Hawks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UH-60_Black_Hawk) over northern Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)F/A-18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18) dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)F-16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16) pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_82_bomb) on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live-fire_exercise), killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident).
2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_Special_Forces) convoy, killing 15. BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Simpson) were injured. The incident was filmed. [11] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/photo_gallery/3244305.stm)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Patriot missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_missile) shot down in error F/A-18C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Hornet) Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFA-195) 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Patriot missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot) shot down a British Panavia Tornado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado) GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
British Royal Marine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines) Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Engineers) checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Faw_Peninsula), Iraq.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-4)
British Challenger 2 tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2_tank) came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2886715.stm)
190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron%2C_Blues_and_Royals_friendl y_fire_incident_-_March_28%2C_2003) when a pair of American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)A-10s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) from the 190th Fighter Squadron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron) attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_and_Royals), killing Lance-Corporal of Horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance-Corporal_of_Horse)Matty Hull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matty_Hull), during the invasion of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq). 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004) - Pat Tillman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman), famous American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan).
2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) soldier Mario Lozano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Lozano) is suspected of killing Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_people) intelligence officer Nicola Calipari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Calipari) and wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliana_Sgrena) in Baghdad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad). Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire.
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) troops opened fire on a Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed. 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006)
During Operation Medusa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Medusa), two U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.)A-10 Thunderbolt IIs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) strafed their own NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO) forces in southern Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan), killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Anthony_Graham), and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban) stronghold along the Arghandab River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arghandab_River). Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
A U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.)machine gunner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_gun) accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard) Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar), in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan). 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007)
American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. [13] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6346901.stm)
U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.[14] (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070612/ap_on_re_as/afghan_violence)
One of a pair USAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF)F-15s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15) called in to support British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British) ground forces in Afganistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afganistan) dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Anglian_Regiment), and injuring two others.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-5)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire
Could it be possible that there is just better documentation of US blue and blue incidents . . . remember Wikipedia is what is submitted . . . and what is editted out. It is suppose to be neutral . . . but there are dozens of articles where there is an obvious bias . . .
. . . so lets start with the US bashing . . . that's what this leads to no? That the US is evil, and the root of all evil in modern societies around the globe . . . :nope:
Lets see this what this is, an unfortunate accident. People will be blamed, people will spend time in brigs and prisons . . . and these events will still occur . . .
absolutley not blue on blue is not a regular occurence with uk forces FACT its quiet clearly an attitude thing with the US and its not US bashing its just a plain fact and like i said its not about equipment its the people behind it you had lesser equipment in vietnam and still had a significant amount of friendly fire incidents
And it's began . . . the US is evil rhetoric . . .
I didn't say that something wrong didn't occur, something had to happen for the Blue on Blue to occur . . . but to say that it is due to how our servicemembers are based on their nationality is absured and adhorrent.:nope:
I don't know why people have to jump to conclusions positively or negatively when the report on the incident hasn't even come out yet. Sheath the knives.
Exactly . . . let the investigators do their investigating. Let them find out if it was a problem with the coordinates sent, or an equipment malfunction, or a human error.
But let us not starting painting one side as the source of evil of the entire world, or the other.
Lets remember that we are in a long term fight here, with an enemy that doesn't mind dying for their cause . . . and an enemy that would wish to bring an Islamist state for what they think that God wants them to do.
They want exactly this, the bickering and infighting . . . lets focus our anger on the enemy and not our allies.:rock:
micky1up
08-26-07, 03:36 AM
1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) A-10 during Operation Desert Storm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Storm) attacks British armoured personnel carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_personnel_carrier) killing nine British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) soldiers (the same number as were killed by enemy fire in the whole war).
1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992) - USS Saratoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saratoga_%28CV-60%29) during a no-notice exercise that included a simulated RIM-7 launch; confusion ensued, and a sailor launched into the bridge of the Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)destroyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer) Muavenet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_%28DM-357%29) killing 5.
1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994) - In the Black Hawk Incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hawk_Incident_%28April_1994%29), two U.S. Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force)F-15E Strike Eagles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15E_Strike_Eagle) involved with Operation Provide Comfort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Provide_Comfort) shot down two U.S. Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army)UH-60 Black Hawks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UH-60_Black_Hawk) over northern Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), killing 29 military and civilian personnel.
2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)F/A-18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18) dropped 3 Mk-82 bombs on a friendly observation post killing six and wounding 11 at Al Udairi Range, Kuwait.
2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002) - American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)F-16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16) pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_82_bomb) on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live-fire_exercise), killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident).
2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_Special_Forces) convoy, killing 15. BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Simpson) were injured. The incident was filmed. [11] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/photo_gallery/3244305.stm)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Patriot missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_missile) shot down in error F/A-18C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Hornet) Block 46 Hornet 164974 of VFA-195 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFA-195) 50 mi from Karbala, Iraq, killing the pilot.
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)Patriot missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot) shot down a British Panavia Tornado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado) GR.4A ZG710 'D' of 13 Squadron killing the pilot and navigator, Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main, both from 9 Squadron
British Royal Marine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines) Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Engineers) checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Faw_Peninsula), Iraq.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-4)
British Challenger 2 tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2_tank) came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2886715.stm)
190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident - March 28, 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron%2C_Blues_and_Royals_friendl y_fire_incident_-_March_28%2C_2003) when a pair of American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)A-10s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) from the 190th Fighter Squadron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron) attack four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_and_Royals), killing Lance-Corporal of Horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance-Corporal_of_Horse)Matty Hull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matty_Hull), during the invasion of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq). 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004) - Pat Tillman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman), famous American football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan).
2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005)
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) soldier Mario Lozano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Lozano) is suspected of killing Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_people) intelligence officer Nicola Calipari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Calipari) and wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliana_Sgrena) in Baghdad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad). Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire.
American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) troops opened fire on a Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) convoy. Junior Sergeant Gardi Gardev was killed. 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006)
During Operation Medusa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Medusa), two U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.)A-10 Thunderbolt IIs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) strafed their own NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO) forces in southern Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan), killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Anthony_Graham), and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban) stronghold along the Arghandab River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arghandab_River). Graham was a former Canadian Olympic athlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men's Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.
A U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.)machine gunner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_gun) accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard) Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar), in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan). 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007)
American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. [13] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6346901.stm)
U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.[14] (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070612/ap_on_re_as/afghan_violence)
One of a pair USAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF)F-15s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15) called in to support British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British) ground forces in Afganistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afganistan) dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Anglian_Regiment), and injuring two others.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-5)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire
Could it be possible that there is just better documentation of US blue and blue incidents . . . remember Wikipedia is what is submitted . . . and what is editted out. It is suppose to be neutral . . . but there are dozens of articles where there is an obvious bias . . .
. . . so lets start with the US bashing . . . that's what this leads to no? That the US is evil, and the root of all evil in modern societies around the globe . . . :nope:
Lets see this what this is, an unfortunate accident. People will be blamed, people will spend time in brigs and prisons . . . and these events will still occur . . .
absolutley not blue on blue is not a regular occurence with uk forces FACT its quiet clearly an attitude thing with the US and its not US bashing its just a plain fact and like i said its not about equipment its the people behind it you had lesser equipment in vietnam and still had a significant amount of friendly fire incidents
And it's began . . . the US is evil rhetoric . . .
I didn't say that something wrong didn't occur, something had to happen for the Blue on Blue to occur . . . but to say that it is due to how our servicemembers are based on their nationality is absured and adhorrent.:nope:
I don't know why people have to jump to conclusions positively or negatively when the report on the incident hasn't even come out yet. Sheath the knives.
Exactly . . . let the investigators do their investigating. Let them find out if it was a problem with the coordinates sent, or an equipment malfunction, or a human error.
But let us not starting painting one side as the source of evil of the entire world, or the other.
Lets remember that we are in a long term fight here, with an enemy that doesn't mind dying for their cause . . . and an enemy that would wish to bring an Islamist state for what they think that God wants them to do.
They want exactly this, the bickering and infighting . . . lets focus our anger on the enemy and not our allies.:rock:
you overreacting who said the US was evil i think noboby the fact is the vast majority ( 99.99%)of BOB events in the iraq wars (both ) were mistakes by US forces that is a fact which you cannot refute you dont here stories of UK BOB because they very rarely happen the last i can remember was in the falklands war when two SF units engaged each other by mistake thats 25 years ago
of course if you can show me evidence of UK BOB that happens anywhere near the regularity of US BOB then i would say its one of those things but the fact is you cant
I had to include this - Here is an example of indirect fire kill over Bosnia!:
07.04 - 02:00 - Podgorica
French Mirage 2000. Missile missed but pilot ejected anyway.
The only Mirage 2000 shot down over Bosnia was a Mirage 2000 N (2 seater) and it was in august 1995 by a heat seeker.
The website you quoted this information from is not credible unless you are willing to acknowledge that the US lost several B-2s over Bosnia and that NATO lost most of its inventory over there.
baggygreen
08-26-07, 06:21 AM
bibi,
you speak of accuracy in websites, then proceed to say that nato lost most of its inventory over in bosnia??? you're trying to tell me that all of western europes military forces were all but wiped out in bosnia? I think not.
And without doing a search, i thought the US lost a couple of F117s, not B2s. Have they ever lost a B2??
Is there a list of on US Blue on Blue incidences? 'Cause in the Wikipedia section there is a section about only US incidents, and about the view of the incidences in British Popular Media. Furthermore, in comparison to the normal optempo what is the rate of blue on blue incidences . . . and how does that compare to other incidences which result in a fatality of a coalition servicemember.
Is there a list of on US Blue on Blue incidences? 'Cause in the Wikipedia section there is a section about only US incidents, and about the view of the incidences in British Popular Media. Furthermore, in comparison to the normal optempo what is the rate of blue on blue incidences . . . and how does that compare to other incidences which result in a fatality of a coalition servicemember.
Here's listed some (not only US B+B):
http://www.defense-update.com/features/du-2-04/fratricide-2.htm (press next to go to the next page, d'uh! :p)
bigboywooly
08-26-07, 08:34 AM
Is there a list of on US Blue on Blue incidences? 'Cause in the Wikipedia section there is a section about only US incidents, and about the view of the incidences in British Popular Media. Furthermore, in comparison to the normal optempo what is the rate of blue on blue incidences . . . and how does that compare to other incidences which result in a fatality of a coalition servicemember.
:roll:
From the wiki list I posted and has been quoted at least 4 times
British Royal Marine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines) Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Engineers) checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Faw_Peninsula), Iraq.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-4)
British Challenger 2 tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2_tank) came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2886715.stm)
So there ARE UK BoB on there
Just nowhere near as many as the US
bibi,
you speak of accuracy in websites, then proceed to say that nato lost most of its inventory over in bosnia??? you're trying to tell me that all of western europes military forces were all but wiped out in bosnia? I think not.
And without doing a search, i thought the US lost a couple of F117s, not B2s. Have they ever lost a B2??
This is not what I said.
The information posted by subman is bs : no Mirage 2000 was lost above Podgorica on 07/04/????.
He posted this fake information from this website :
http://www.warfacts.org.yu/tourofduty/index.html
So, if he is willing to believe that an M-2000 was shot down on that date & place, then he should also acknowledge the loss of several B-2s and dozens of others aircraft over Bosnia.
Anyway this website is a propaganda website and it is not credible. I just wanted to correct subman.
TLAM Strike
08-26-07, 02:22 PM
Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.:nope:
Again at the expense of UK servicemen.:nope:
Despite the RAF's continuous close air support of US troops in both Iraq and Afganstan the UK has yet to bomb any US forces. The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.
Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?
Friendly fire is anything but!
Still something to learn America?
I think so. I heard on the News Hour about four months ago UK Paras in Afganstan were complaning (with a written letter to a newspaper or something) about the RAF's CAS and the USAF/USN/USMC was perfered. :hmm:
micky1up
08-26-07, 03:44 PM
Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.:nope:
Again at the expense of UK servicemen.:nope:
Despite the RAF's continuous close air support of US troops in both Iraq and Afganstan the UK has yet to bomb any US forces. The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.
Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?
Friendly fire is anything but!
Still something to learn America?
I think so. I heard on the News Hour about four months ago UK Paras in Afganstan were complaning (with a written letter to a newspaper or something) about the RAF's CAS and the USAF/USN/USMC was perfered. :hmm:
you woukd say that wouldnt you without any proof of course
:roll:
From the wiki list I posted and has been quoted at least 4 times
British Royal Marine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines) Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Engineers) checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Faw_Peninsula), Iraq.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#_note-4)
British Challenger 2 tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2_tank) came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2886715.stm)
So there ARE UK BoB on there
Just nowhere near as many as the US
The reason why I am asking for a non Wiki listing, is that, as I said before, some articles in Wiki are baised, so I was looking for an alternative source of information.
Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.:nope:
Again at the expense of UK servicemen.:nope:
Despite the RAF's continuous close air support of US troops in both Iraq and Afganstan the UK has yet to bomb any US forces. The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.
Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?
Friendly fire is anything but!
Still something to learn America?
I think so. I heard on the News Hour about four months ago UK Paras in Afganstan were complaning (with a written letter to a newspaper or something) about the RAF's CAS and the USAF/USN/USMC was perfered. :hmm:
I read the same elsewhere as well.
micky1up
08-26-07, 04:43 PM
Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.:nope:
Again at the expense of UK servicemen.:nope:
Despite the RAF's continuous close air support of US troops in both Iraq and Afganstan the UK has yet to bomb any US forces. The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.
Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?
Friendly fire is anything but!
Still something to learn America?
I think so. I heard on the News Hour about four months ago UK Paras in Afganstan were complaning (with a written letter to a newspaper or something) about the RAF's CAS and the USAF/USN/USMC was perfered. :hmm:
I read the same elsewhere as well.
but i see this para is quite alive unlike the three dead uk soldiers that used US CAS
micky1up you are begining to sound trollish...just an obeservation.
that last comment is retarded...**** happens...people die...you quibble about the method or strain at the knat.
The Avon Lady
08-27-07, 01:25 AM
knat.
Gnat, though I'm sure you gnu.
knat.
Gnat, though I'm sure you gnu.Gnat, knat...always with the small things :)
micky1up
08-27-07, 03:58 AM
micky1up you are begining to sound trollish...just an obeservation.
that last comment is retarded...**** happens...people die...you quibble about the method or strain at the knat.
i dont care iceman you of all people should understand freedom of speech
Rhino1978
08-27-07, 05:05 AM
Why are we all arguing about who is to blame?.Are we not both fighting for the same thing??.Blue on Blue will happen FACT.In every large conflict ever there has been blue on blue,
There needs to be more comms between forces to keep this to a minimum.And Anyone responsible for BOB should be investigated to see if any wrong doing has occured,if so they should be held 100% accountable.
Jimbuna
08-27-07, 05:46 AM
Why are we all arguing about who is to blame?.Are we not both fighting for the same thing??.Blue on Blue will happen FACT.In every large conflict ever there has been blue on blue,
There needs to be more comms between forces to keep this to a minimum.And Anyone responsible for BOB should be investigated to see if any wrong doing has occured,if so they should be held 100% accountable.
Spoken like a true Geordie :up:
Not a Mackem I trust :hmm:
robbo180265
08-27-07, 06:39 AM
This is obviously very sad, but unfortunately, it is what happens when bullets, bombs, missiles and military aeroplanes are flying around while troops are advancing, and nobody should be under any illusion that these things will not continue to happen, as long as wars do.
'Friendly fire' incidents have always happened in wars, (the first RAF Spitfire shot down in the Battle of Britain was nailed by an RAF Hurricane). Most bomber forces in WW2 used to work on the basis that up to ten percent of the force would be lost in collisions while forming up before they even set off for their target, and a proportion of the lower formations would be hit by bombs falling from aircraft flying above them. There are countless other examples I could quote too. But of course with the internet, news satellites etc etc, incidents such as these are simply more widely reported these days.
Although it often seems that the US appear to have more friedly fire incidents than other forces, I think it's fair to say the likelihood that they will, is in large part due to their numbers in comparison to other coalition forces. So proportionally, they are probably no worse than any other army in this. It's true the US gained a reputation for incidents of this nature in WW2, when they did indeed hit many Allied troops, but one has to remember that they were there in larger numbers than anyone else then as well. And everybody in the UK was glad of their numbers when they were putting ten landing craft onto the beaches at Normandy for every one the British landed there, weren't they? Incidents of this nature are the price you pay for that numerical superiority.
And yes it is true that some American servicemen have what is euphemistically termed a 'gung-ho attitude', but so do some UK servicemen and probably every other nation as well. However, the newspapers do not report stories about examplary soldiers, because that is 'boring', they only pick up on things which will outrage readers and sell newspapers. It is this kind of crap, poor editorial and journalistic integrity, which made me decide to leave the newspaper industry some years ago and write freelance instead.
When the newpapers report on all the successful missions as much as they do on the ones which go 'tits up' I'll have a bit more respect for them.
Note that, as someone queried, with regard to the A10 Thunderbolt II (or Warthog as everyone calls it) and what will happen when it retires, you might be interested to know that a contract has recently been awarded, which will see these aircraft extensively serviced, Boeing winning the contract to 're-wing' them (for example) to extend their service lives. Since the A10 is one of the best close-support aircraft ever, hopefully this, at least, will help to minimise the chances of this sort of tragic occurence.
:D Chock
The most sensible thing said in this thread so far.
Been away for a while,I come back and suprise suprise - nothings changed. Here you all are bickering over something that's yet to be investigated.
None of you know what the reason for this latest Blue on Blue incident,and until the powers that be investigate -none of you will. So why don't you all calm down and wait for the official report, and for God's sake STOP sniping at each other!!!
The Avon Lady
08-27-07, 06:49 AM
Note that, as someone queried, with regard to the A10 Thunderbolt II (or Warthog as everyone calls it) and what will happen when it retires, you might be interested to know that a contract has recently been awarded, which will see these aircraft extensively serviced, Boeing winning the contract to 're-wing' them (for example) to extend their service lives. Since the A10 is one of the best close-support aircraft ever, hopefully this, at least, will help to minimise the chances of this sort of tragic occurence.
Ready (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di58z3REIQ0)!
Rhino1978
08-27-07, 07:41 AM
Why are we all arguing about who is to blame?.Are we not both fighting for the same thing??.Blue on Blue will happen FACT.In every large conflict ever there has been blue on blue,
There needs to be more comms between forces to keep this to a minimum.And Anyone responsible for BOB should be investigated to see if any wrong doing has occured,if so they should be held 100% accountable.
Spoken like a true Geordie :up:
Not a Mackem I trust :hmm:
Afraid so Jimbuna,100% Mackem here lol:rotfl:
Jimbuna
08-27-07, 08:00 AM
Why are we all arguing about who is to blame?.Are we not both fighting for the same thing??.Blue on Blue will happen FACT.In every large conflict ever there has been blue on blue,
There needs to be more comms between forces to keep this to a minimum.And Anyone responsible for BOB should be investigated to see if any wrong doing has occured,if so they should be held 100% accountable.
Spoken like a true Geordie :up:
Not a Mackem I trust :hmm:
Afraid so Jimbuna,100% Mackem here lol:rotfl:
Please accept my deepest sympathy ;)
Rhino1978
08-27-07, 09:48 AM
Why are we all arguing about who is to blame?.Are we not both fighting for the same thing??.Blue on Blue will happen FACT.In every large conflict ever there has been blue on blue,
There needs to be more comms between forces to keep this to a minimum.And Anyone responsible for BOB should be investigated to see if any wrong doing has occured,if so they should be held 100% accountable.
Spoken like a true Geordie :up:
Not a Mackem I trust :hmm:
Afraid so Jimbuna,100% Mackem here lol:rotfl:
Please accept my deepest sympathy ;)
I take it your from up the road lol
TLAM Strike
08-28-07, 01:28 PM
Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.:nope:
Again at the expense of UK servicemen.:nope:
Despite the RAF's continuous close air support of US troops in both Iraq and Afganstan the UK has yet to bomb any US forces. The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.
Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?
Friendly fire is anything but!
Still something to learn America?
I think so. I heard on the News Hour about four months ago UK Paras in Afganstan were complaning (with a written letter to a newspaper or something) about the RAF's CAS and the USAF/USN/USMC was perfered. :hmm:
you woukd say that wouldnt you without any proof of course
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=KWCVWPGVAE0F5QFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ 0IV0?xml=/news/2006/09/22/uafghan.xml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5371392.stm
From the BBC Article:
"... Harrier pilot 'couldn't identify the target', fired two phosphorous rockets that just missed our own compound so that we thought they were incoming RPGs [rocket-propelled grenades], and then strafed our perimeter, missing the enemy by 200 metres," it says.
...
Other Parachute Regiment officers had told him they prefer to call in American A-10 Tankbusters for air support when under fire because of what they see as the RAF's ineffectiveness, he added.
bigboywooly
08-28-07, 01:52 PM
From your own Telegraph link
"They do not reflect the view of the vast majority of soldiers about the Harrier Force in Afghanistan, which has consistently performed brilliantly in defending coalition forces, so much so that it is in regular demand not just from British commanders on the ground, but from our allies too.
"It must be remembered that this is the opinion of only one man. The general view is very different."
Besides
In your quote it says he missed the enemy by 200 meters
Still closer to the enemy than the F15 that dropped his bomb ON Brit soldiers :roll:
TLAM Strike
08-28-07, 01:58 PM
From your own Telegraph link
"They do not reflect the view of the vast majority of soldiers about the Harrier Force in Afghanistan, which has consistently performed brilliantly in defending coalition forces, so much so that it is in regular demand not just from British commanders on the ground, but from our allies too.
"It must be remembered that this is the opinion of only one man. The general view is very different."
Besides
In your quote it says he missed the enemy by 200 meters
Still closer to the enemy than the F15 that dropped his bomb ON Brit soldiers :roll:
Well that article was showing both sides of the argument- a good thing for any news orginzation to do and which has been lacking a lot recently! :yep:
Question to the experts at large, do they still mark targets/frendlies with smoke in these days of FLIR? :hmm:
XabbaRus
08-28-07, 03:22 PM
The problem with the RAF is that they are using an aircraft for CAS that doesn't have a gun. The new Aden cannon couldn't be got to work so they ditched it. The crazy thing is they have retired one of the best CAS aircraft this side of the A-10, the Jaguar. Its crews were highly trained in CAS and had an HMS aswell as self designation capability aswell as one of the best inservice rates for UK aircraft. Hopefully with the Typhoon going over to Afghanistan soon things will get better as it has a gun.
I also read that the UK troops prefer the A-10 if they can get it. The apache has proved its worth but sometimes it can't get there quick enough.
I hate the way that so many in the UK as soon as there is a BoB with our guys start complaining the US pilots can't shoot straight. In this situation they were being hit from 3 sides from darn close range.
Lucky more weren't killed.
ASWnut101
08-28-07, 09:30 PM
@ ASWnut101 PM
Read (Interesting), will reply later when I have the time.
Question to the experts at large, do they still mark targets/frendlies with smoke in these days of FLIR? :hmm:
While I don't think the idea was completely abandoned, I really don't belive they use it much, if at all, in most situations. Mabye once every so often for helo support, but it really seems to be being replaced by IR Strobes and simple coordanates.
Question to the experts at large, do they still mark targets/frendlies with smoke in these days of FLIR? :hmm:
Not that I'm an expert or anything, but I don't think so, or else it is uncommon. I think either an air controller on the ground directs with more precise measures e.g. GPS co-ordinates or laser designation, or the CAS craft does it itself. It's interesting that in the wiki friendly fire timeline posted earlier, there's a surprising lack of accidental casualties in the period I would have expected them to be the worst - Vietnam. Maybe the wiki page is incomplete, I don't know. Or, with all that dense jungle canopy, with smart bombs not yet mainstream... maybe there is really something to be said for an airborne FAC with a bank of WP rockets.
TLAM Strike
08-30-07, 03:14 PM
Question to the experts at large, do they still mark targets/frendlies with smoke in these days of FLIR? :hmm:
Not that I'm an expert or anything, but I don't think so, or else it is uncommon. I think either an air controller on the ground directs with more precise measures e.g. GPS co-ordinates or laser designation, or the CAS craft does it itself. It's interesting that in the wiki friendly fire timeline posted earlier, there's a surprising lack of accidental casualties in the period I would have expected them to be the worst - Vietnam. Maybe the wiki page is incomplete, I don't know. Or, with all that dense jungle canopy, with smart bombs not yet mainstream... maybe there is really something to be said for an airborne FAC with a bank of WP rockets.
I remember when reading about the Navy SEALs in Vietnam that they would pop smoke on their position and the VC would pop their own smoke (often a diffrent color) and the SEALs would signal the pilot "were the [purple/red/etc] smoke. hit anything else."
I remember durring the first year of the war against the Taliban some Canadians got bombed by USAF jets (A-10s i think) becuse they forgot or didn't have their IR strobes. IR strobes work great exspecally at night but its easy to forget their off when they should be on (got to check them with NVGs or risk using a flashlight to see double check the on/off switch at night) while smoke on the other hand leaves no ambuguity- everybody knows your there.
One more thing don't A-10s lack a FLIR system? Its all nice and good to have an IR Strobe but what if the the plane dosn't have IR! All the pilots got is his NVGs. Or does the A-10 carry a LANTERN pod all the time on CAS missions. Hmmm maybe the USAF could save millions by having the Army issue $5 smoke gernades in place of having $5 million LANTERN pods on every A-10.
Yet another display of the USAF's poor acuracy in battle.:nope:
Again at the expense of UK servicemen.:nope:
Despite the RAF's continuous close air support of US troops in both Iraq and Afganstan the UK has yet to bomb any US forces. The RAF is infact the preferred choice of UK and US forces in both theatres, for close air support. Doing it with older and more antquainted airframes as well.
Does this yet again say something about US pilot training? Or is it a case of a cultural attitude that leans towards "Triggerhappy"?
Friendly fire is anything but!
Still something to learn America?
I think so. I heard on the News Hour about four months ago UK Paras in Afganstan were complaning (with a written letter to a newspaper or something) about the RAF's CAS and the USAF/USN/USMC was perfered. :hmm:
I read the same elsewhere as well.
OK I found the link for the statement:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-majors-email-british-harrier-support-in-afghanistan-revisited-02661/
Heibges
09-01-07, 12:14 PM
snafu
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