[REQ] Lighting (not lightning) effect fix

[Quagmire]

Do you talented people know how to fix this annoying problem. The lighting effect in this game are really screwed up. Especially when viewed from a distance. It may be a texturing problem too since viewing ships from a distance is whacked. You know, blinking textures on ships most noticed when they are damaged.

Here are some screenies that explain what I mean:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4200/shiv1ur9.jpg

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4976/crawlingnf2.jpg

I know some of you guys are playing with the lighting effects on the ocean. I there any way to simply turn off the lighting effects on the small objects like rails. You really wouldnt miss them since they are so small.

Please help! THANKS!
.

[TDK1044]

Looks like a video card issue to me. A combination of sun glare and AA. I don't see this problem on my Nvidia card. Are you using an Ati card by any chance?

[sneekyzeke]

I run 1024x768x32 with 4x Anti-Aliasing (AA) and 4x Anisotropic Filtering (AF) which is all my rig can handle, but it runs smoothly and looks great. The color banding on that railing can be minimised by either increasing AA or resolution or both, depending on your performance. I encourage you to visit http://www.tweakguides.com/Graphics_1.html for everything you ever wanted to know about this sort of thing; also after that go to his home page and look at his guides that are specific for your video card brand as he has some great info there. Hope this helps; Zeke.

[Misfit138]

The color banding on that railing can be minimised by either increasing AA or resolution or both, depending on your performance.

Out of curiosity, are you running an ATI or Nvidia card?

It seems that we ATI users can't make those jagged lines go away no matter the AA or resolution

[sneekyzeke]

The color banding on that railing can be minimised by either increasing AA or resolution or both, depending on your performance.

Out of curiosity, are you running an ATI or Nvidia card?

It seems that we ATI users can't make those jagged lines go away no matter the AA or resolution

Aye-ffirmative. But they look a helluva lot better on mine, 'cause I READ.:up:

[kapitan_zur_see]

it has nothing to do with the game itself, it's a "problem" wich origin goes back since the very first of all 3D game.It's a matter of rendering 3d on screens like those we're using. kinda hard to explain on the fly. It's just that on the screen resolutions we're using, that details you're showing on your pic is only 3-4 pixels wide. Hence it cannot renders details like we sees with our eyes in real life, wich are much more precise than a screen.

there are ways to limit that effect to a considerable extent, but at the cost of hardware... ;)
Try using values of at least 6x for Anti-aliasing (they "remove" jaggy edges)
Try adding Adaptative antialiasing should your video card has it.
Try using highest possible resolution on your screens
Try waiting for some new i-don't-know-when screens with resolution of up to 5120x4096 or more where you will have less problems like that... But well, that's not a solution available today ;)

Either way, it's not moddable and "doesn't need to". You'll see plenty of those on other games, depending on your "choice" of resolution and Antialias settings

[sneekyzeke]

Tried to edit my last post, but it didn't work. Look at his frame rate. I would KILL for that kinda FPS. He could probably benefit by increasing goodies or resolution or both.

[Misfit138]

So, if this has something to do with AA settings then how come my S-class conning tower sides still look as ugly with 6x AA and adaptive AA on as without them?

And for the record. I was using 1280x1024 resolution in both of these cases

[Jhereg]

Misfit and OP, 1280x1024 is still gonna get you some aliasing on near horizontal rendered objects.

SH3 gives me those even tho my AA is at 16Q and 16 aniso @ 60 FPS; on SH4 they are less noticeable due to running at 1920x1200.

You are running at near SH3 res (1024x768) and as such the aliasing is magnified, try running at a higher resolution with a lower AA as that may improve the overall appearance more than a lower res with higher AA.:up:

[Misfit138]

You are running at near SH3 res (1024x768) and as such the aliasing is magnified, try running at a higher resolution with a lower AA as that may improve the overall appearance more than a lower res with higher AA.:up:

Thanks for suggestion but this is the maximum resolution of my 17' CRT. Been planning to buy a new bigger monitor but playing games like Red Orchestra becomes difficult for me because of my tunnel vision

[Jhereg]

Hmmm, try getting one of the 20inch LCDs with a 1600x1200 resolution as they are not really to large in actual screen physical size but is high resolution.

Hopefully this is not to big for your tunnel vision.


4:3 aspect ratio on above

[Misfit138]

Hmmm, try getting one of the 20inch LCDs with a 1600x1200 resolution as they are not really to large in actual screen physical size but is high resolution.

Hmm, got any suggestions for this kind of monitor? :) There's so many LCD's out there that I just don't have a slightest clue which ones are actually worth buying

[THE_MASK]

I run 1024x768x32 with 4x Anti-Aliasing (AA) and 4x Anisotropic Filtering (AF) . Try 1280 x 960 x 70hz with 2 x AA and 4 x AF with Mipmap detail on quality .

[Jhereg]

Misfit, the Samsung SyncMaster 204B is a good choice in the 300ish dollar range, very good 5ms response time and great 800:1 contrast ratio.

The Dell 20.1 incher is also nice and you may be able to get it cheaper with their Coupons/Deals they run all the time. HTH:)


edit: Go check the Sammy out at Bestbuy or some other big box store, that way you'll be sure its not too big, or any other 20.1 inch 4:3 ratio LCD.
edit 2: LOL, sorry bout that just saw you are in Finland, do not know if Dell does buisiness there, but you should be able to get the Sammy there for sure.

[Misfit138]

edit 2: LOL, sorry bout that just saw you are in Finland, do not know if Dell does buisiness there, but you should be able to get the Sammy there for sure.

Hehe, well there's some kind of dell netstore so might as well check it out. Did some quick checking about Samsung SyncMaster 204B prices. Cheapest is about 385 euros and it's a bit too much for my budget...

But did came across Samsung SyncMaster 205BW with relatively reasonible price. Is this any good?

[Jhereg]

Nah, it is not as good and is a widescreen which may not work for you, also as a widescreen there is less screen height making it smaller than the 20.1 inch 4:3 aspect ratio monitor.

Sheesh, I just checked newegg.com the 204 is only 298 US dollars, 385 Euros is way high its like 515 US dollars.

Try seeing if you can get the Acer AL2216Wbd its a wide screen but at 22 inch diagonal for about 224 US or hopefully 300 Euros, it has great contrast and reponse times.

All the other 4:3 ratio 20's are more expensive as the market is switching to WS format whether we like it or not. I was sticking with the 4:3's to avoid potential problems with your vision. The Sammy 204 is really good though.

[DirtyHarry3033]

Misfit, the Samsung SyncMaster 204B is a good choice in the 300ish dollar range, very good 5ms response time and great 800:1 contrast ratio.

The Dell 20.1 incher is also nice and you may be able to get it cheaper with their Coupons/Deals they run all the time. HTH:)


edit: Go check the Sammy out at Bestbuy or some other big box store, that way you'll be sure its not too big, or any other 20.1 inch 4:3 ratio LCD.
edit 2: LOL, sorry bout that just saw you are in Finland, do not know if Dell does buisiness there, but you should be able to get the Sammy there for sure.
Gotta agree about the 204B, I've got one and it totally rocks! Been using it for a year and no matter whether I'm surfing, word-processing, gaming or whatever, I have had ZERO complaints about it :rock: Razor-sharp, crystal-clear, great refresh rate. It's my 2nd Samsung and I imagine my next LCD will be Samsung also!

DH

[Misfit138]

Nah, it is not as good and is a widescreen which may not work for you, also as a widescreen there is less screen height making it smaller than the 20.1 inch 4:3 aspect ratio monitor.

Yeah, noticed that it was a widescreen but gotta make some compromises with this bugdet of mine. Althought, I might save some money for a month or two to get that Samsung SyncMaster 204B. Based on the comments people have given about it, it's one high quality monitor. Thanks for heads up about this! :up:

Sheesh, I just checked newegg.com the 204 is only 298 US dollars, 385 Euros is way high its like 515 US dollars.

This is something we have here in Finland. Some gfx card might have a price of about 320$ in newegg.com yet still it's has those same friggin' numbers in here too!

Hmm, think someone needs to tell the retail sellers here that euros and dollars are NOT the same thing :rotfl:

Anyways, many thanks for clearing these things about monitors. Knew that I was in a need of new monitor but the lack of proper 4:3 flat screen has been the show stopper for me untill now

[Misfit138]

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/m/Mdds/106063/jerifqourq.jpg

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/m/Mdds/106063/jrgbgsbeki.jpg

And everything should look good, right?

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/m/Mdds/106063/kojxcxltpy.jpg

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/m/Mdds/106063/svzsaosvxd.jpg

Yeah, looks great...

[Quagmire]

Hey Misfit,

Your setup is just like mine. So close, yet so far away to a perfect image. I mean, those screenshots are BEAUTIFUL, with the exception of those nasty lighting effects. Unfortunately, when that sub starts rolling in the seas those black hashes on those rails crawl back and forth along the rail!\

This totally ruins the whole experience since it is VERY distracting.

And furthermore I think it effects only ATI users. I would caution going out and buying another monitor since that wont fix it. There is a problem with the method the SHIV engine processes the lighting effects to the ATI driver or vise versa.

I hope we can find a solution. NVIDIA users PLEASE speak up. Do you have these issues? We are trying to isolate this problem.

THANKS!
.

[CaptainCox]

No issues here what so ever.
Running a 8800GTX using nHancer, settings are:

AA/Converage Sample 16X
Gamma correction ticked
AF/x16
Vertical Sync/Aplication

E6600@3.2Ghz

2 gig of OCZ DDR2 PC2-8500/1/1 5,5,5,15,T2

All looks like it should, and FPS is around 70-75

[Misfit138]

And furthermore I think it effects only ATI users. I would caution going out and buying another monitor since that wont fix it. There is a problem with the method the SHIV engine processes the lighting effects to the ATI driver or vise versa.

Yeah, I definately agree! Heck, I remember that during the time of SH3 Nvidia users were complaining about those certain graphical glitches they had and I was thinking that thank god I bought ATI. Nvidia fixed those glitches with SH3 but ATI doesn't have the same interest with SH4 so this kind of settles it. I'm selling my X1950XT and getting Nvidia 8800GTS :rock:

[Jhereg]

I was gonna post a pic of mine to show you how the aliasing is taken care of when you up the resolution but imageshack only allows smaller pics and if I downsize this it loses the detail.

Maybe I will have to look up how to set up my own page as my ISP will host I think 10Gig.

Your pics look just like my SH3 did before I figured out how to circumvent its resolution limitations. It was just a little better due to my higher AA.:yep:

[CaptainCox]

Use the link called "Direct: " at ImageShack. Highlight that/right click/copy
Hit the icon that looks like two little mountains with a sun icon in your post reply and paste...viola ;)
This is basically 1/1 from Photoshop (big I know, but...)

EDIT: The pic I used here was for demo purposes and was way to big :p. Read my next post to see details ;)

[Jhereg]

Quagmire it is not a lighting issue in the game it is simply aliasing of horizontal or vertical lines in the image. A higher resolution monitor will improve it as the game has more pixels to squeeze into those small thin objects, thus minimizing aliasing.

I have twoo 8800GTXs in SLI and run the game at max and if I lower the resolution to 1280x1024 even at 16xAA it will still have aliasing, but only slightly better handling of it.

When I run it at 2560x1600 it looks amazing but will sometimes hit 30ish FPS or slightly lower.:cry: This is why I run it at 1920x1200 as it gives 60FPS and a beautiful picture @ 16AA, 16AF all effects maxed and on. I could e-mail you guys the pics so you can see what I mean.. just PM me if interested.:up:

edit: OK thanks CC I will try that BRB
edit 2: I'm dumb I can not find how to direct link anywhere on their site LOL...I can fix, build, and play games with my PC's but to do something useful:nope: :damn:

[CaptainCox]

Maybe you have to make an account...
This is what I see on ImageShack before I post on Subsim
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6573/directoo2.jpg

You see that "Direct:" link...that's what I use ;)
Gonna take that big pic off in my previous post as its probably killing a lot of guys load speed here :p

[Jhereg]

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/8195/sh4img138200722332956ua4.jpgProblem is my pic is 6.9MB LOL, lemme fool around and try to get a good balance of compression and size.



Yeeeha!
thanks Captain Cox for the help!!!

One more

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/3945/sh4img118200723621734sq7.jpg

[Misfit138]

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/m/Mdds/106063/bmhuyevgie.jpg

Without any AA or AF. Don't know if this is something with my degraded eye condition or something else but I don't see much of a difference on the key areas

Those railings look just as bad with AA and without it

[Jhereg]

Actually I do believe the rails on the main deck of the sub do look better in your previous pics. The area on deck where the grey meets the black is definitely better.

AA just can not handle the jaggies at lower resolutions even at 16AA. When I run at 2560x1600 it looks awesome even with low 2xAA but she needs more power Cap'n!!!!:huh:

edit: My game would probably look even better if I had enough GFX horsepower to run it at the monitors native res of 2560x1600.

[Misfit138]

Hmm, guess I can finally see the difference only when I get that new gfx. Already got a buyer for my current card, thank god for that!

I PITY THE FOOL WHO BUYS ATI!! :rotfl:

[Quagmire]

I made some progress with this issue tonight. I may have a workaround.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1033/shivbadgt2.jpg

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3663/shivgoodcc2.jpg

The problem is due to the extra layer of lighting effects that are applied to the ships. When you disable "USE SHIP NORMAL MAPS" this layer is turned off and the crawlies are gone.

THEREFORE THIS PROBLEM IS NOT DUE TO A LACK OF ANTI-ALIASING OR LOW RESOLUTION. Check the wires in the mast rigging. Anti-Aliasing is working beautifully.

So dont run out and buy new monitors folks. What we have here is a bugged game 3D engine or bugged ATI drivers.

Unfortunately there is a hitch. This "fix" or "workaround" only applies to the ships. Your own sub does not seem effected (crawlies still exist). :damn:

What we need are the talented modders out there to help us with the scene.dat file (I'm guessing its that file) and tweak it to remove the offending lighting layer.

Thoughts?

.

[sneekyzeke]

I concede that I was absolutely mistaken about this being an AA problem. I guess I just didn't notice that much since I spend most of my sailing time at the plotting table. I stand corrected. But, on a positive note; after 2 days of reading and studying and cross-referencing information on ATI drivers, AA methods, and other things, I can report that I have at least for myself solved this nagging problem.
"Options - Game Options - Disable External View". :rotfl: :up: Now, back to the task at hand, sinking ships. Zeke

[Misfit138]

I can report that I have at least for myself solved this nagging problem.
"Options - Game Options - Disable External View". :rotfl: :up: Now, back to the task at hand, sinking ships. Zeke

And now you're telling that! :rotfl:

Already sold my ATI card :88)

[Jhereg]

Quagmire, I can agree with your statement that light mapping "enhances" aliasing but a higher resolution does significantly reduce any noticeable artifacting due to it having more sample points for whatever brand video card's AA routines to deal with resulting in a better picture.

I will go see if disabling light maps makes a difference at higher resolutions.

I never said lack of AA was the problem, I said even with 16AA at lower resolutions the image is improved.

The truth of the matter is, that the higher the base images resolution is to start with before adding "effects" or visual improvements to the rendering (AA, AF, etc....) the better it will appear.

[Quagmire]

I see your point. So how do you "disable light maps"? I would like to experiment with this as well.

THANKS!
.

[Jhereg]

I was talking about the "ship normal maps" check in the graphics options in game, sorry for the confusion:oops: .

I have really not noticed any improvement while running around this morning with them disabled at high res, I believe our subs maps are on by default and can not be disabled(may be wrong about that).

Seems lower resolutions just amplify the problem. Run it at 800x600 Eeewwwwwww!!!:o LOL.

[Quagmire]

OK. I think we are getting on the same page here. So I see that you are running at a high resolution but at 60hz. Doesnt that hurt your eyes? Or is there something to stop the flicker at that refresh rate?

You are right about the sub maps. There is no way I can find to turn those off. However with the "light mapping" turned off the problem is less noticable. So hopefully some good has come out of all this.

Now here is the big question. I wonder what the NVIDIA drivers do so well since NVIDIA users do not see this problem.
.

[sneekyzeke]

It would be my guess that he, like me, is using a LCD monitor. They do not suffer from the flicker associated with Cathode Ray Tube guns, and in fact my native resolution is 1280 x 1024 @ 60 Hz. Toodles!

[Jhereg]

Yeah i am using a Dell 30 incher LCD, I could probably run it at a higher refresh rate for the game as it is running at 1920x1200 vice the monitors max of 2560x1600 @ 60Hz.

I just never bothered to change it as 2560 is my desktop res, and there is no flicker on the LCD.:rock:


edit: I see the problem as well but only at lower resolutions. If at a lower res that railing is say 4 pixels from top to bottom, but 10 at a higher res the light map is better able to spread the light to shaded area across more pixels evenly.

This makes it easier for a video card to AA as it has more intermediate shades to work with, thus reducing the light dark, light dark crawling effect.

[Quagmire]

Jhereg,

Humm. I noticed in the two large screenshots you posted that you anisotrophic filtering is almost nil. The textures on your sub is very plain. Almost monotone. If you up the aniso to max in your drivers the crawlies will appear no matter what resolution.

When I turn my aniso (texture quality) and mipmap to high performace I get screenshots just like yours. However someone worked hard on those pretty textures and washing them out is a shame.

Furthermore I went and borrowed a nice Dell 2007WFP widescreen panel from a friend. I am running at 1600x1050 and the crawlies are still there. No change at all.

This is not an anti-aliasing problem. It is a light map problem due to crappy game fx files or crappy ATI drivers. Or both!

My only hope now is that when Misfit gets his new NVIDIA card he can report that everything is perfect. If the problem still exists then UBI and the devs have really let us down.

:down: :down: :down:.

[leovampire]

lighting effects just make sure you adjust the right one's because they are not all named. For example the lightning in the omni settings ONLY there is the lighting for the sky, water and surounding area, but the surounding area one is not named. The point is it may be something that is adjustable. just back up your file before doing anything.

For example I was able to make the crew less see through on deck watch with one of the adjustments.

[Jhereg]

Quagmire the textures for the subs deck and overall actually are very monotone as this is a "clean" Salmon skin with no weathering etc. http://www.oldsmobile1958.com/extra/SalmonHiBLV1.0.rar

By Foofighters and Boris.

So far there has not been a weathered black Salmon skin yet.

Anisotropic is set at 16 with 16xAA, Transparency SS, and Gamma Correct AA in that pic. The deck texture could use a non skid texture, but as I am useless at actual useful things on the PC.....meh I just have to wait till somone does a weathered black skin.:)

Maybe your right and the ATI cards are doing something wrong as you should have seen some improvement. AMD Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!:arrgh!: They let me down with the 2900 series.

[Quagmire]

Ahh that explains it. Sorry for the confusion.

I hope Misfit gets his NVIDIA card soon. It seems that NVIDIA users are not having this problem. His experience will be a benefit to us all.

[Misfit138]

@Quagmire

Good that you were able to test this problem with bigger monitor. This resolution thing still bothers me. I did a test with another game with AA x4 and it had this same kind of ugly railings as Silent Hunter 4

Anyways, think I'm going to have that Nvidia card next week already. At least I hope so! Can't say that this current X600 Pro of mine is excatly a good card... :doh:

EDIT: Yay, a Wild Night in Bangkok!

[Quagmire]

OK. I did a little research and here is what I found. The problem that we face here is called "Texture Shimmering". Read this clip from an article that explains it best:

What is texture shimmering you ask? As a quick refresher, texture shimmering can occur when the mipmap transitions from one texture resolution to the next. If the transitions are harsh, the lower quality mipmap levels can stand out pretty dramatically; this sometimes causes a shimmering or flickering effect to the eye. In some extreme cases, you’ll practically see a line ahead of you marking the spot between these transitions. Ideally the higher detail textures should blend well with the lower detail textures and the end user shouldn’t notice a thing, but unfortunately this hasn’t always been the case.

In any case, going back to our original point, what we’ve found with texture shimmering is that it can be highly variable. You may never see it in one level of a game, and then in the next it’s impossible to miss it. In general texture shimmering is harder to spot in dark areas, and easiest to spot in bright, outdoor areas with long, flat surfaces. In this scenario texture shimmering can be very easy to spot, as textures on the ground in front of you are literally flickering before your eyes.

What makes texture shimmering really tricky though is that it can sometimes be incredibly difficult to spot in a static screenshot, and static screenshots are the #1 tool used by hardware reviewers to judge image quality. It’s easier to spot when you’re up and running in motion. Because of this, we’re going to rely primarily on videos, rather than screenshots, to spot texture shimmering.

Link to the full article here: http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...down_august06/ (http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_nvidia_image_quality_showdown_august06/)

I have spent a great deal of time the last few days playing with various MIPMAP levels and aniso filtering levels with no success. The problem is that the SHIV 3D engine itself does not do a great job hiding these "mipmap level" transition issues. This is not a shocker since the game was designed without support for anti-aliasing! :down: So it is not a stretch of the imagination to think that aniso and mipmap optimization support was not even considered! I dont know about NVIDIA, but ATI drivers perform best with 3D engines that are designed to feed their optimisation alogorithms. Do a search on how Catalyst AI works to learn about that.

Now a lot of you are going to say that ATI sucks and it is the drivers not the game engine that is at fault. Well I would be the first to believe that however the facts stand in the way. I also play Medieval II and Company of Heroes and I see no texture shimmering problems in those games. You can add Americas Army and BF2 to that list as well.

NVIDIA users seem to have it better. They dont get the dreaded "sun disk", etc. Well that is because this game was probably developed on NVIDIA cards only. Therefore the devs never saw the ATI issues and never corrected them. Normally game developers code using both cards to make sure GPU related issues do not get missed. However with as half-assed this game was on release it is easy to believe that the 3D rendering department was half-assed as well.

So with that I guess I will try my best to ignore the aftershock of the devs lack of due diligence on release. They already have my money so I better make the best of it....

:down: :down: :down: :down:.

[sneekyzeke]

Great research, everybody! I have owned Monster3d, RivaTNT, VooDoo, ATI, Diamond Stealth, and probably a few others through the years. Currently using an ATI 'cause that was available at the time and place of purchase for the price I was willing to spend! I'm sure that i will own Nvidia again someday, too. They were all fine cards at one time, so i've never felt compelled to say, "this one sux, etc." I'm content with what i have now and wish that peace on you all! Zeke

[Misfit138]

Based on some quick testing I've done with this GF8800 GTS now, this is in fact something you can only reduce/avoid by using higher resolution. Although, the shimmering doesn't seem as bad now as it did with ATI card but it's probable just something with my AA settings

[sneekyzeke]

well, i'll just be darned. so it turns out that you pretty much can't go wrong if you spend at least $85.00 and up and you get an ATI or an NVIDIA a whatever; unless of course that you allow yourself to be sucked in by stories about how your card sux 'cause it ain't the one i bought and blah blah blahblah blahhhhhhhh

P.S. In the deep south, we call this "fishing with your money". it's how rednecks troubleshoot/fix their cars. they just keep replacing parts until the problem stops.

Happy simming!

[Misfit138]

well, i'll just be darned. so it turns out that you pretty much can't go wrong if you spend at least $85.00 and up and you get an ATI or an NVIDIA a whatever; unless of course that you allow yourself to be sucked in by stories about how your card sux 'cause it ain't the one i bought and blah blah blahblah blahhhhhhhh

P.S. In the deep south, we call this "fishing with your money". it's how rednecks troubleshoot/fix their cars. they just keep replacing parts until the problem stops.

Happy simming!

Sun glare is there, texture flickering gone and image quality seems much better now. Can't honestly call this waste of money, can you? ;)

[sneekyzeke]

yes

[Misfit138]

yes

I can respect your opinion but you're simply wrong :p

Isn't buying pc components a complete waste of money anyway? Today an expensive and powerful pc is worthless and slow tomorrow

[sneekyzeke]

maybe...:D peace, fellow sub-simmer!:rotfl: :up: :rock:

[Misfit138]

maybe...:D peace, fellow sub-simmer!:rotfl: :up: :rock:

ok, peace :D

But I'm going to torpedo your sub someday! :arrgh!: :rotfl:

[Quagmire]

Misfit,

So the NVIDIA card is in, eh? Congratulations! Anyway your findings confirm that it is indeed a problem with the SHIV 3D engine if you are still seeing that shimmering problem at ANY resolution.

I played SHIII at 1024x768 for a long time and never had the shimmering issue. The devs of that sim took time to deal with the different mipmap level issues. The effort was obviously not done by the SHIV devs. :down:

It is nice that you have the sun glare now though. Enjoy those pretty sunsets!
.

[Digital_Trucker]

[My Humble Opinion]

If I'm not mistaken the developers of SH4 were given an extrememly short timeframe to complete the project. I believe that the people we should be dissappointed in are the folks a step or two above the developers (you know, the ones with the money that don't want to part with any of it, but want to rake as much of it in as they can). I would be the first person to complain about shoddy workmanship if the developers were the entire process, but they aren't, any more than the poor soul working on the assembly line at GM is responsible for the shortcomings of the corporation as a whole.

[/My Humble Opinion]

[Misfit138]

Misfit,

So the NVIDIA card is in, eh? Congratulations! Anyway your findings confirm that it is indeed a problem with the SHIV 3D engine if you are still seeing that shimmering problem at ANY resolution.

I only tested the 1280x1024 but it's pretty pointless to take a look hows the lower resolutions...

I'm gonna toy around with this to see if I can find anything useful. These Nvidia's different AA modes make me pretty confused :doh: What the hell happened to that "just" Anti-Aliasing?! :88)

[Marka Ragnos]

I have a 7900 GTO Nvidia card the game runs smooth but i also have that problem mentioned in the first post.

I also have the Samsung Syncmaster 206BW no matter what type of resolution the effects remains the same.

I'm gonna try some settings on my nvidia card and i'll get back to you

[Misfit138]

Been doing some more testing and ditched Vista because I had some performance issues with it and didn't really bother to start fighting with those and was just testing it out of curiosity. Was easier to just switch back to 64bit XP which btw is the best operating system M$ has ever produced :rock:

Ok, let's cut the chase. The shimmering is greatly reduced with this Nvidia card

GF8800 GTS 320Mb 162.18 Forceware

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8040/sh4img29820072058yd9.th.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh4img29820072058yd9.jpg)

And the same ship with ATI X1950XT 256Mb Catalyst 7.8 Drivers

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/1736/sh4img1782007646nq2.th.png (http://img475.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh4img1782007646nq2.png)

Notice that I actually had to take the shot closer of the ship now with Nvidia card to make those jaggies easier to see. As you can see, there are still some of those left but not like on the second shot. Not at all

[Quagmire]

If I'm not mistaken the developers of SH4 were given an extrememly short timeframe to complete the project. I believe that the people we should be dissappointed in are the folks a step or two above the developers (you know, the ones with the money that don't want to part with any of it, but want to rake as much of it in as they can). I would be the first person to complain about shoddy workmanship if the developers were the entire process, but they aren't, any more than the poor soul working on the assembly line at GM is responsible for the shortcomings of the corporation as a whole.
[/My Humble Opinion]

I respect your opinion Digital_Trucker as much as your Radio Station manager!! :rock: However the very fact that you were able to develop your tool in your spare time while the developers of this sim couldnt come up with something similar AS PART OF THEIR FULL TIME JOBS leads me to lose faith in their "devotion to a quality product".

Another example is Anvarts fix of the periscopes after patch 1.3. I work as an IT developer for a large company. My job performance rating would be in jeapordy if my team broke something in a software patch that we sent to our clients and then made a client fix it!

Its a pride of ownership thing really. If my name was on the credits of this sim then I would definately test it thouroughly before a patch went out the door. And sure I might miss some obscure bug but something as obvious as the peri animation not working would be spotted on the first try. Now if I didnt care to test it at all...

The devs did a lot of good, hard work bringing us this sim. However the "love and pride" of their creation is severely lacking. I understand the evils of a large corporate publisher/distributor but something like the peri animations not working (and leaving it to the customer to be fixed) points to a lack of devotion to those who make it possible for them to be compensated for their work at all.

Just my opinion though......
.

[Quagmire]

Been doing some more testing and ditched Vista because I had some performance issues with it and didn't really bother to start fighting with those and was just testing it out of curiosity. Was easier to just switch back to 64bit XP which btw is the best operating system M$ has ever produced :rock:

Ok, let's cut the chase. The shimmering is greatly reduced with this Nvidia card

GF8800 GTS 320Mb 162.18 Forceware

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8040/sh4img29820072058yd9.th.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh4img29820072058yd9.jpg)

And the same ship with ATI X1950XT 256Mb Catalyst 7.8 Drivers

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/1736/sh4img1782007646nq2.th.png (http://img475.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh4img1782007646nq2.png)

Notice that I actually had to take the shot closer of the ship now with Nvidia card to make those jaggies easier to see. As you can see, there are still some of those left but not like on the second shot. Not at all

Well there we have it. If the devs would have built this game using ATI us ATI users would have it much better now. Or, as is the industry practice, built it using NVIDIA and ATI we all would be happy. Both driver sets (NVIDIA and ATI) use optimizers that must be accomodated when building a 3D environment. This was obviously not done for ATI.

Now I would understand if they printed on the box "works as advertised with NVIDIA only", but since they didnt we have been let down again... :down:

.

[Digital_Trucker]

However the very fact that you were able to develop your tool in your spare time while the developers of this sim couldnt come up with something similar AS PART OF THEIR FULL TIME JOBS leads me to lose faith in their "devotion to a quality product".

...............

Just my opinion though......


And we are all certainly entitled to them. As a friend of mine loves to say "Opinions are likes anuses (or is it ani?) we all have one, and most of them stink"

But, you can't compare my developing a simple tool that just modifies a few simple files in my spare time (ALL of my time is spare since I am unable to work and am basically housebound) to the development of a 3D game of these proportions. Yes, I have pride in my work and I hope it shows, but the ability to act on that pride is enabled by having the time and resources to polish the product. I have no doubt that, had I been given (proportionate to the complexity of the project) the same amount of time the developers of SH4 had, my app would not be anywhere near what it is.

[Misfit138]

Ok, been still working on this shimmering thingy and after several different kind of settings with nHancer, I managed to get excatly the same kind of very ugly shimmering as with my ATI card so you can actually experience this with both Nvidia and ATI cards

The difference just seems to be that with Nvidia, you can reduce the amount of shimmering quite easily. And with ATI this seems to be pretty much impossible. Maybe I missed something in ATT or CCC settings but don't think so

On another note while we're on this ATI issue. I gave a try to Silent Hunter 3 after a long while again with my X600 and sun glare looked a bit kind of "weak". Didn't remember how it looked when I got the game so I though it was normal. Today I ran SH3 with this Nvidia card and there was a BIG difference with that glare effect compared to that ATI card

Don't know how important that sun glare issue in SH3 is but as far as I can recall, that effect worked just as it should with 9600 Pro so there might be a bigger issue here with certain ATI cards