Why are the SUPER MODDERS giving up so quickly? [Archive]

Quagmire

08-08-07, 12:09 PM

I know I may be asking a lot here but I wish the super modders (Ducimus, Beery, etc.) wouldn't give up so quickly. I guess I shouldn't blame them since they actually want to play the game too, but it is kind of sad.

SHIII saw so much more love when it came to modding; a fact that doesn't make much sense to me. In fact, if you read the SHIII forums, a lot of people turn their nose up at us Pacific warriors.

Sure SHIII is wonderful. I played the heck out of it. But the superb graphics of SHIV makes SHIII just look to primitive to go back to.

So what is it that makes the "love" for SHIV fade away? Is it the lack of convoy battles? Is it the weak nature of the Japanese ASW that makes people lose interest? I don't know.

I am sure we will never see a GWX for SHIV but I hope that the "love" for SHIV will increase in the future.
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Hitman

08-08-07, 12:41 PM

I don't think the "Supermodders" are giving up so quickly....

Fact is they come from the SH3 scene and have learned a lot while struggling with it, so they are now much more selective and refined in their work. They are not constantly rushing to add all new mods and well-looking items, but instead have gained much wisdom and let new mods and improvements settle down and proof their value before adding them to their work.

As for GWX, they are still busy with the final 1.04 release of their work. Thinking about SH4 for them right now is out of the question, as it should be, but who knows what can happend when they end their SH3 adventure and have had some rest, maybe all or some of them move on to SH4. Have a bit of patience, man :up: SH4 is here for the long run, and you can be sure it will be turned in agame as beautiful as the modded SH3 is now....just note that for SH3 it has been a 2 years road, so Sh4 will have also its time:yep:

ReallyDedPoet

08-08-07, 12:41 PM

Quagmire, the game is still only months old and there has been great work done on it. Modders, including the 2 you directly mention, have done great things with the game. It will only get better, whether it( future mods ) comes from the exisiting crew here or from somebody that doesn't even own a copy of the game yet.

Folks that mod do it for free in every sense of the word, let's be patient and see what develops over the coming months.

If any of them want to take a break, that is their option, they have earned it :yep:

RDP

FAdmiral

08-08-07, 12:45 PM

SteamWake

08-08-07, 01:13 PM

Well I know of at least one modder that got sick and tired of the constant brow beating from the community at large.

Another case of biting the hand that feeds you.

I do know that Duminicus, Tater, and others (sorry Im not real active in the dev community) are still working on things and discovering things on a daily basis.

Quagmire

08-08-07, 02:36 PM

SH3 modding was a new concept and the modders spent much time to make it
what it is today. Now SH4 comes along and needs the same time spent to make
it the best. Modders now have to do the SAME thing all over again. Once is fun
but a do-over is getting dull....

Yeah that is what I am worried about. BURNOUT. It is I am sure a lot of work to create a GWX and as luck would have it, SHIV comes along just as the GWX team has finished their SHIII masterpiece. They really would have to start all over again to make a GWX for SHIV. A constant stream of modding from their perspective.

Hats off to our supermodders. I tried to mod the game myself and all I came up with was a mess of CTDs. I just don't have the gift. I am just trying to encourage those who do to keep the faith because it is greatly appreciated. I wish their was a better way to thank these folks other than congratulatory threads.

"Don't give up the ship!", as the USN would say, supermodders. WE NEED YOU!

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donut

08-08-07, 02:38 PM

It is more complex,takes time to learn,& is full of leftover files from SHIII that clutter,& confuse.Because they are connected,or unconnected to nodes that were intended features that were rushed, & or,left out. Sorta like; looking for your keys in the trash.:huh: It does seem as though the talent,doesn't want to mess with SHIV,& that is distressing to the potential we all see so clearly. Say a prayer we continue to be blessed with challenge loving talent,to improve game-play.To make it more rewarding.
GWX,is Atlantic defeat of political injustice.OH the cost! The Pacific is winning freedom from terrorist attacks for liberty.We just want the code to work logically.Now where did the code originate:hmm:

joea

08-08-07, 02:40 PM

Quagmire

08-08-07, 02:44 PM

I guess I am just being a bit selfish. My greatest wish would be for the GWX team to stop working on GWX and start working on SHIV. :up:

But I understand that they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

I have the highest respect for them. In fact, I sometimes respect them more than the original devs of the game. How is it that a guy like Anvart can fix the periscopes in a week or so with no knowledge of the source code of the game, while the devs with all their inside knowledge can't seem to keep such errors out of a patch.

Do the devs actually play the game they develop???

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Linavitch

08-08-07, 02:48 PM

I know I may be asking a lot here but I wish the super modders (Ducimus, Beery, etc.) wouldn't give up so quickly. I guess I shouldn't blame them since they actually want to play the game too, but it is kind of sad.

SHIII saw so much more love when it came to modding; a fact that doesn't make much sense to me. In fact, if you read the SHIII forums, a lot of people turn their nose up at us Pacific warriors.

Sure SHIII is wonderful. I played the heck out of it. But the superb graphics of SHIV makes SHIII just look to primitive to go back to.

So what is it that makes the "love" for SHIV fade away? Is it the lack of convoy battles? Is it the weak nature of the Japanese ASW that makes people lose interest? I don't know.

I am sure we will never see a GWX for SHIV but I hope that the "love" for SHIV will increase in the future.
.
Answered your own question?

Ducimus

08-08-07, 04:06 PM

Im debating if i should answer this question in full.

1.) Building a "supermod" requires a team effort, regardless if i like it or not. Its more like a project, and you need specialized people to fill in certain areas. Artist, programmer, QA, tech support, etc. Some of these areas are backfilled by the modders in the modforum who don't mind their works intergrated, but the point here is, im filling alot of roles with what time i have.

2.) You know how much time i spend on this? A coulple in the morning before work, and 3 to 4 hours after work, every day. Not to mention the time i spend answering posts like this while AT work :roll:

3.) Too many requests, problems, PMs, honeydo's etc as a result of increased "popularity". Could you do this? can you post that? I dont always answer all PMs anymore when i can't or wont give a postive response. See pts 1 and 2.

4.) I have other things id like to do with my time. (A sense of "finishing what i started" is what has kept me going, and not wanting to let ppl down.)

Ats about it.

Ducimus

08-08-07, 04:12 PM

>>.My greatest wish would be for the GWX team to stop working on GWX and start working on SHIV
>>

Keep dreaming. The GWX team did alot of work, but it was over the course of a long time. Their kinda like the Microsft of SH3 modding. IF they see a good idea, the abosrb the author and his work. Even *I* had some of my work abosrbed by GWX, some of it uncredited. (although in hindsight, i suppose im no different with Tmaru)

The point here being that saying, "Oh i wish gwx would.." is pointless, there are other modders who can make stuff work. Besides that, their head honcho is a diehard uboat fanatic with not one ioata of interest in the pacific or US fleet boats.

Quagmire

08-08-07, 04:29 PM

Thanks for the reply Ducimus. Dont take this thread the wrong way. I am just posting so modders like you get some appreciation and offer some encouragement.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is the number one thing that needs to be modded right now? Then what is number 2?
.
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Quagmire

08-08-07, 04:33 PM

Thanks for the reply Ducimus. Dont take this thread the wrong way. I am just posting so modders like you some appreciation and offer some encouragement.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is the number one thing that needs to be modded right now? Then what is number 2?

Sorry for the double post. I have no idea how that happened...

Ducimus

08-08-07, 04:38 PM

Im not mad or upset, i just tend to put things bluntly when i feel im being asked directly.

Anyway, Off the top of my head...

- Damage model and ship zoning sucks ass. WernerSobe i beleive is attacking that.

- better enviormentals like lighting. (being worked on by Leaovampre, CC, and boris i bleieve)

- Submarine physics are skewed. Its almost as if theyre acting in reverse of how they should act. (IE going faster tends to make you dive slower)

- Want bigger waves? need to ajust the wave attunn settings in the sim.cfg. Problem is smaller ships flood and sink, player submarines will have issues while on the surface, and the whole visual sensors for the AI would need to be readjusted.

- "depth charges in the water!" Its in the SO.cfg file, but im not hearing it, are you?

minsc_tdp

08-08-07, 05:18 PM

I never modded SH3 or SH4 but after playing SH3 and Enigma a bit, and seeing SH4's beautiful graphics and generally becoming more interested in subs (which takes time!), I was inspired to bring the best of Enigma (voice command) into SH4. First version is out and working well. So maybe more new people like me will come to the scene (I don't have the inclination to mess with physics, graphics, AI, etc. I leave that to more talented people.)

I think the key is that developing a sub addiction takes a bit of time, especially for younger folks. Now that SH4 1.3 is out and getting a generally positive response, more people might be drawn in. One reason I committed to doing this was the presence of all the other mods, so I also hope that they keep coming and improving. When I'm done with my voice command, I'll want to play an awesome game with it, and I'll need their mods for that. When I test things out in my stock configuration, I sink destroyers by just ramming into them, and they generally ignore me a lot longer than they should, the game doesn't seem like much fun when there's these constant breaks from reality and immersion.

On that subject, sh4speech is all about better immersion through voice command. My general rule is, if a task wasn't hands-on for the Captain, it won't be in my game either. And beyond the stadimeter, pointing at a spot on a map, and swiveling the periscopes, the Captain didn't really touch a whole lot, so I still have some work ahead of me... :) If you can bark orders and not feel like an idiot, it really adds a lot to the game. If you think voice recognition is horribly unreliable, try it, you'll be blown away. The accuracy amazes me still.

Sailor Steve

08-08-07, 05:56 PM

How do you know we won't get NEW supermodders? Tater was not around for SH3 (I "knew" him from the Il-2 forums) and is doing great things for the campaign layers, Captain Cox is new, the gusy (sorry forgot his name) who did "living breathing ocean" is new and I am sure I missed many others. Don't dispair. :D
And none of the great modders for SH2 had much to do with SH3. New folks come along, the game is still shiny and new, and who knows what it's going to look like two years down the line?

Patience is everything.

Ducimus

08-08-07, 06:07 PM

Good points. Theres quite a few great mods that are made by people who never modded for Sh3. Realistically, i dont think its a good idea to count on the modders from Sh3 to be around long in general. Think about it, you spend Months, or years tooling around with one game, now you have to start over and do it all over again?! Yeah, right.... :roll:

Modding this game is not hard. Once you learn the file structure and what files do what, your in a position to change most annoyances.

Ducimus

08-08-07, 06:34 PM

You know, i woudlnt burn out so quickly and want to quit if i wasnt doing so much by myself. I'd love to just poke at a single problem, focus on it, kick it around for a couple weeks or months, off and on as time allowed. But since i chose to make a modpack, i don't have that luxury. I have a pressing need to "move on to the next item" sort of thing.

I have often thought about making a formal "team". Asking for volunteers, but i havent for many reasons:

1.) I dont want to alienate anyone.

2.) I like modding discussions in the open. A team often has a tendency to, (and sometimes a need to), discuss in private. I dislike this because it keeps knowledge and know how from the public, and the mod forum no longer an open forum. I dont want to form a cliche and factionalize the community, or set the foundations for a future mod war.

3.) Formal team means Commitment. Just how much commitment left do i have to give? I dont know.

Maybe theres another way? I dunno. An open agreement to work on the same collective project? But then comes an issue of "vision", "goals" and "intent". You have to pursue a singular goal, if you can't the end result will be watered down and dilluted.

tater

08-08-07, 06:52 PM

When I was plugging alone on my campaign at my own pace, and attacking other things as I felt like it, it was entirely fun. To the extent I feel pressured to get somethign out the door quickly, it becomes "work."

Having all kinds of people use my campaign in TM indeed made it more on the work side because I hated to have a crappy camapign used by many people---and I do consider what I have beta because it doesn't match my vision for it by a long shot yet.

Getting a "good enough" version out there for TM frees me to work at my own pace again, and I'll happily try and modularize it when it's dialed in for TM.

I like that whole concept of modules, frankly. Different people have different interests.

To the extent you can muck around for fun, it's fun. As soon as you are compelled to "support" stuff it becomes work.

As for secrets.. I have a post waiting to be made regarding new camapign stuff, but it's fun to keep it a little on the hush hush side since they are fun things that are more fun for not knowing ahead of time exactly what they are.

tater

Ducimus

08-08-07, 08:06 PM

Sorry man, i didnt mean to put you on the spot. I just had no idea that TM would gain in such popularity. Its that popularity, that really turns the whole thing into a job.

tater

08-08-07, 08:22 PM

No worries, I can go back to my normal pace already. :D

I'll still go the extra step of making a TM version once I get a version that is less of a minor internal build. That's easy.

I suppose the work nature of it is tempered by the fun of having people actually enjoy it. It's a balance, and my end is clearly not on the heavy lifting side.

Besides, I wouldn't have realized the distinction before with 5-6 people playing the campaign, lol.

<S>

tater

kylesplanet

08-08-07, 08:31 PM

I know that alot more can be done with this game but I think it is great with all the current mods. What you guys have done with it is incredible. I had never played sub sim games before and bought the download version on a whim. Hated it at first, constant CTD's and so on but I found this site and the great mods and I am addicted to it now. I play most every day and look forward to any new mods that might come out but if they don't, its still a good game. Modders make it a great game!:yep: :yep: :yep:

JScones

08-08-07, 09:09 PM

I know I may be asking a lot here but I wish the super modders (Ducimus, Beery, etc.) wouldn't give up so quickly. I guess I shouldn't blame them since they actually want to play the game too, but it is kind of sad.
I wouldn't say it's "giving up" - that sounds a tad bit harsh. Beery did the same with SH3 - found another interest after releasing RUb 1.45 despite players wanting "more". Ducimus came and went and came back again at least once every four-six weeks.

This isn't meant to be critical, it's just to point out that this is what happens, and it's not necessarily "giving up" - moreso just creative ebb and flow.

Besides, there are other modders here who have picked up the torch and are running with it, most without having previous modding experience. Any one of these guys could be the next "super modder". They just need time to gain experience; remember, the guys who have developed the first SH4 modpacks have already gained that experience through modding other games, hence why they hit the ground running so fast. Just give others time.

My greatest wish would be for the GWX team to stop working on GWX and start working on SHIV.
You know, I wouldn't want that. GWX is successful because everyone working on it has some passion for the U-boat war. That passion is what defines the quality. I seriously doubt that the remaining GWX modders could work up the same passion for SH4 (let alone even have an interest in SH4) as a) they have for SH3 and b) some of the modders here already have. I think those who could have, are already here (ie Boris).

And as others have said, this wouldn't be a panacea for all that ails you - the modders would need to scrap their German u-boat memories and build up, in many instances from scratch, knowledge in US submarine tactics and warfare. You'd be looking at another year before you saw anything even remotely like a Pacific version of GWX. By then, well, you'll have TM3.2, LOL! I think the best you'll get from these guys is a porting over of the u-boat war into SH4.

But if I may pass an observation, what I think SH4 does need are:

1. good modellers - ones that are keen on not just porting units over from SH3, but building new ones.

2. researchers that will pick these units up and integrate them *historically* into SH4. Atm I've seen a plethora of SH3 units ported across and thrown anywhere, with no regard given to their actual use, scripting, nationality, integration etc. There's been some modest attempt to rectify this - I recall a promising Dutch "alignment" mod under development which seems to have died - but I'm not sure that anyone has taken the bull by the horns and taken the challenge on (tater, pls say I'm wrong).

Anyway, my point is, give it time, you'll start to see natural paths being created between different modders and bigger creations will flow from there.

In fact, if you read the SHIII forums, a lot of people turn their nose up at us Pacific warriors.
I'm sure you'll find that it goes both ways. ;)

tater

08-08-07, 09:16 PM

Well said, jscones.

I agree about the models, I utterly lack the skils required, which I wish wasn't true. Funy you mentioned the sh3 ports, I DLed them, compared what they looked like to my ONI 208-J manual, and decided not one of them looked like a single RL japanese merchant and removed the mod, lol.

cdrsubron7

08-08-07, 09:16 PM

Ducimus

08-08-07, 09:26 PM

I know i come and go alot, but i really am done this time. The real reason is ive been thinking really long and hard about a career change for awhile now. I'll have to act on that soon (IE, "**** or get off the pot").

In sum, ive been where i am for 7 years, making 13 bucks an hour. Im going nowhere, staring at the same cube walls every day, and something has to change. As insane as it sounds, i ve been thinking about going into trucking. At least then ill be going somewhere (literally) and making a bit more money then i do now. Its not just a job, but a lifestyle change, and i very much doubt ill have time for computer games. Well except maybe when waiting to get unloaded which i hear can take up to 40 hours in some places :roll:, but ya, you bet ill be getting a laptop with SH4 and TM 1.5 on it.

AkbarGulag

08-09-07, 01:05 AM

Well except maybe when waiting to get unloaded which i hear can take up to 40 hours in some places :roll:, but ya, you bet ill be getting a laptop with SH4 and TM 1.5 on it.

If you are late on a truck delivery, you can wait days to have your load unloaded... that time will be spent in a rented space like a hotel or whatever they call them in the U.S. (long haul, not sure about inter-state)

I suggest you get ready to fix your modding itch while sitting around waiting :up:

There have been some new faces in the mods section for SH4, some seem at ease making mods, others are awkward and new... Lets learn the lessons from Scones and others and try and be a bit more positive with the new crew. People adding remarks in mods discussion like 'I dont like it' with no reason given needs to be avoided. Maybe a moderator could sometimes slip in their and delete crap like that, it may go a long way to maintaining a positive atmosphere. Users takeing some sort of responsible attitude to posting would be even better.

In response to the amount of 'SUPER' mods available, its early days, the 1.3 patch is fairly new. As a user I have spent the last 6 or 7 days trawling and downloading mods, swapping mods and finding compatible and incompatible mods has been keeping me more than busy. During this time it has become obvious some Modders are putting their heads together in response to peoples constructive comments.

To sum up, I think it is a bit early to think nothing will happen.. Like it was said earlier, this game is still shiny and new.

Tobus

08-09-07, 02:09 AM

Sea Demon

08-09-07, 02:32 AM

I don't know. I think things will pick up eventually. I was worried like this when Dangerous Waters came out. The early days we didn't see alot of modding going on like the love that was given to Sub Command with the SCXIIc project. But eventually Luftwolf and Amizaur took up the challenge and gave us the amazing LWAMI mod which seems to be a constant evolution. So far SH4 has some good modding out there. No GWX style mods yet, but Trigger Maru adds a whole lot of stuff into this game. I don't know, but it doesn't look like the modders have given up on anything. Work like this takes time. In the meantime, grab a cold one, and sink them skimmers.

ghost_666_rider

08-09-07, 07:13 AM

As insane as it sounds, i ve been thinking about going into trucking. At least then ill be going somewhere (literally) and making a bit more money then i do now. Its not just a job, but a lifestyle change, and i very much doubt ill have time for computer games. Well except maybe when waiting to get unloaded which i hear can take up to 40 hours in some places :roll:, but ya, you bet ill be getting a laptop with SH4 and TM 1.5 on it.
After 18 yrs in the business, as a broker and now a company driver... you'll want a laptop with you at all times. Delays are now the norm everywhere you go. If you are not on a dedicated run where you can make the connections to jump the line, you will be well and truly f&*%$d. As for making money, this is the lowest pay I've ever had, but I no longer own the truck... but average roughly $24/hr (can$). I'm home every day, so it's a tradeoff for more money or more time at home.

Wulfmann

08-09-07, 09:20 AM

This depends on what people want to keep their interest in the game.
The reality is assbackwards game wise. SH3 was the perfect scenario because things got harder so followed a more natural game involvement.
SH4 gets easier if history is followed.
Looking back at SH3 I can honestly say the most important mods were the tools.
After that my own rewrite of the RND file made the game so hard the challenge we on the edge. That in no way diminishes the great mods I enjoyed but it was game play not visuals that kept me engrossed like no other game/sim I ever played
Yes, SH4 has better graphics although many things will be improved by modders like effects damage etc the big keep me interested question is how to improve game play realistically/historically and keep me interested.
In SH3 I doubled and tripled the escorts (late war) and made them all 3 (all war) minimum but that simply was following history (my version as I researched it) while SH4 can not match that.
I feel the way the real war played made the U-boat a more natural long term game.
I love SH4 so far and believe it started at a better place (higher level) than SH3. I just don't think the basis for the sub war in the Pacific will hold the same level of game play.
I know it sounds silly but if I was UBI I would have a add-on SH4 U-Boat war coming out on Dec 07 for Christmas. One year is a nice break in the Pacific from the "real" battle---------IMO in the North Atlantic.

Wulfmann

WernerSobe

08-09-07, 10:41 AM

The bigger the mod the harder it is to satisfy everyone and critics start raining towards you.

talking about my natural sinking mechanics. Its still in development and changing every day. When i started people where complaining about "enemy ship destroyed" message coming up to soon. So i balanced the ships to take more flooding before it comes. Then people started wondering how its possible the ships having water on decks and are still not abandoned.

Its hard to match everyones taste.

Wulfmann

08-09-07, 03:32 PM

Speaking of ships sinking and complaining. :rotfl:

I put 4 fish into a big tanker and it did not go down. I just used three fish to sink a small (3K) frieghter. I use your sinking mod but am guessing that does not change whether a ship sinks or not.
Makes it kinda hard. I really prefer as real as possible but I do not think this small merchant would have survived two decently placed hits.

Wulfmann

Quagmire

08-09-07, 11:23 PM

Well this is cool! This thread is turning into a place where the greatest modding minds have all come to chime in and collaborate. Keep it up boys! Share those ideas and keep the conversation going. This may inspire future modders to take up the cause.

And good luck Ducimus. It is a shame but real life tends to tap on your shoulder just as you are about to hit the FIRE TORPEDO plunger!

If you dont mind the cold the best money in trucking seems to start in Yellowknife, NT, Canada. Maybe we will see you on ICE ROAD TRUCKERS soon!

.

Fearless

08-10-07, 12:06 AM

For me, I like every mod that I wanna use otherwise I wouldn't download them in the first place.

Any modder, skinner, program developer who decides to share their work are credible members to us all because we, "the vultures who grab whatever we can get our claws on" reap the benefits from their efforts.

So for the people who "complain about this or that", I suggest you start placing yourselves in their shoes and start looking at it from their perspective.

Now there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism and especially feedback because how else can mods or other elements of game structure be improved but at the end of the day, if you don't like it, frakkin don't use it.

minsc_tdp

08-10-07, 06:09 PM

I figure the drive to mod is largely selfish - I made the voice command system for myself, and only shared it since I thought there might be folks out there that might want it. But the key is, if no one did, I honestly wouldn't care. When you're modding solely to please others, that's probably not fun. Maybe this is what happened to some of the good modders?

Ducimus

08-10-07, 06:33 PM

I figure the drive to mod is largely selfish -

As bad as that sounds, i agree. I'll say it straight up, TM is the game *I* want to play. I am both TM's number 1 fan, and worst critic at the same time. But i think most people that mod are the same way. If you look at other modpacks, they are designed to a "vision" of what the modders want the game to be, not neccessarly the pubic masses. Sure i'll make a poll (primarly to gauge responses, or gauge the weight of my own decisions), but ultimatly the design will be what I feel it should be, i may change my mind midstream, or i may not, it just depends on my aspirations for the finished game.

Of course theres always the rub. Some people like "choices", and their quick to say so, particuarlly when they dont agree to your design decisions. So when you stick to your design decisions that lead to your final vision of the game, your criticised for it.

Take Beery for instance, he takes hard knocks for his deck gun. If i agree with it, or what i think of it, is irrelvant. Its HIS vision of the game, and its HIS mod. If i dont like it, i can change it to suit my own tastes or opt not to use it at all. Its always been that way, not just for his mod, but all mods. Everyone here has those exact same choices, and the responsilbity for those choices falls on the individual user, NOT the modder.

Wow, what a tanget i just went on. :roll:

donut

08-10-07, 06:39 PM

Touched with a 10 ft.torpedo:rotfl: .

Ducimus

08-10-07, 06:46 PM

Yeah i realize that post isn't going to be winning any popularity contests, but i feel its the truth. You can take just about any lage modpack, and i garuntee you, they'll have a different view of the game and a different approach.

SteamWake

08-10-07, 08:34 PM

Sounds like the rantings of a frustrated artist.

Indeed you sir are an artist.

As are all the modders that pour heart soul and most preciously time into there labors of love.

I love em too :up:

Please ! keep up the good work.

AkbarGulag

08-10-07, 11:30 PM

You can take just about any lage modpack, and i garuntee you, they'll have a different view of the game and a different approach.

Exactly... Sometimes bundles add a host of things one user or another will not appreciate. The advantage being though, that when they are bundled, there won't be any conflict...

Im up to 26 mods and I'm starting to have a few issues with one mod using something another does... I tend to merge certain mods together by just overwriting the file I think is less important (sometimes with hardfile copy-pasting in the mods unique folders) Then if I can, tune with mini-tweaker to recover some of the lost functionality... Something supermod packs avoid.