The human element...

[madjack]

I bought SH4 a few weeks ago. And it's often exciting and also deeply involving and yet...where's the human element, where's the human drama?

Let me explain.

My thinking is that as a commander of a sub, you would have been responsible for 30-40 men, cooped up in a metal tube in the middle of the vast ocean, in peril. To a man, they would have been looking to you to make the right decisions to 'take the fight to the enemy' but also, crucially, to bring them back to their wives, their children, their loved ones. As sub-commander you would've gotten to know many of them personally, had knowledge of their backgrounds, commended some, punished others.

And yet there's essentially none of that in the game. The men are essentially cyphers, icons to be moved about. In fact the menu screens hold more human interest than the actual game. Your sub is essentially a cursor (albeit a very pretty cursor) that you direct in a virtual space (albeit a very detailed virtual space), with which you issue commands. Which in many ways, when it's all boiled down, is what you're doing when you're working, say, with a spreadsheet.

Ok, that's being flippant but to be plain about it, when my sub is being depth-charged I'm concerned (as you might expect). But not because the boat holds any characters in whom I've made an emotional investment - and they're in danger. I'm concerned because my big sub-shaped cursor is in trouble and I'll probably need to reload and so lose game progress and 'reputation'. You tell me which is the bigger tragedy, or the more harrowing. And why can't I have both in my subsim? Why can't I be concerned that I'll lose game progress and probably need to reload, but also have an emotional reaction to what should be a clear human tragedy?

I could understand this focus on the 'nuts and bolts' of the simulation in the old days of subsimming. Computer resources were at such a minimum that it often appeared as though your boat was deserted and it was you all alone working the dials. But now it's starting to look like a sort of wilful negligence - sort of 'well, this is how its always been done, so this is how we'll do it now'. And so bow-waves get more detailed, harbours get more buildings, the seabed gets (oversized) rocks and seaweed. But why this disdain for including the human element in a simulation that purports to be comprehensive?

I can just hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth; 'you want to make our sim into an RPG!'. Well, no, I don't. But a bigger nod towards the men who make up your crew would be a welcome addition to the SH series surely? Just take a look at the forums. You'll find elaborate stories written up about simulated patrols, where the author has even written dialogue supposedly coming from the icons and wooden puppets they've see on-screen! That should tell you something.

[alunatic]

Well if you want to make up life stories for 50 crew members be my guest and if you put it up for download I'll definantly get it but for me "knowing" my crew isnt that important but what is important for me is how much shipping rests on the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.

[madjack]

Ah the internet.

Write a posting that asks for a thoughtful response...

...and get a dashed-off reply by 'alunatic' who misses the point, several commas, fullstops and misrepresents what you've written.

Gotta love it:up:

[Swede]

Thats an interesting idea. When i play i sort of rolplay it a bit when handing out medals. IE i only give medals to crewmembers that i feel played a vital part in my sucess.

But it would in deed be a cool feature to at least socialise with the officers. And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

[AVGWarhawk]

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.

[madjack]

And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

Exactly - but perhaps it doesn't have to be something as extensive as that, perhaps it could just be a captain's personal diary ('2 days out from Pearl en-route to Honshu, Bob had his 42nd birthday today...) or an announcement from the cook ('meatballs for dinner tonight!') - something to better the immersion while you watch your little icon travel slowly across the nav map ('cause there's got to be a better way to handle that part of the game, game designer!)

[capt_frank]

I really would like the option to plug on or two of them with my service revolver and toss their worthless arses overboard. Additionally, I would like to have my own icon so that I could give all the medals and accolades to myself.

Seriously.

[Torpex752]

And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

Exactly - but perhaps it doesn't have to be something as extensive as that, perhaps it could just be a captain's personal diary ('2 days out from Pearl en-route to Honshu, Bob had his 42nd birthday today...) or an announcement from the cook ('meatballs for dinner tonight!') - something to better the immersion while you watch your little icon travel slowly across the nav map ('cause there's got to be a better way to handle that part of the game, game designer!)

Great ideas, and maybe someday when a game developer has the budget to hire programmers to do all this, and technical reps to guide them it will happen. I assure you I'm not blasting you....but for me.....having a proper damage control model and control panel along with a few other biggies is higher on the pri list than more crew members.

[Swede]

And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

Exactly - but perhaps it doesn't have to be something as extensive as that, perhaps it could just be a captain's personal diary ('2 days out from Pearl en-route to Honshu, Bob had his 42nd birthday today...) or an announcement from the cook ('meatballs for dinner tonight!') - something to better the immersion while you watch your little icon travel slowly across the nav map ('cause there's got to be a better way to handle that part of the game, game designer!)

well if its just a piece of text in your diary then its rather pointless. Then you might as well have a notepad next to your pc and write little stories on that:hmm:

[madjack]

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.
Heh - I wondered how long it would take before some hard-ass would mention 'consoles' and 'The Sims' in one sentence.

Look, I don't want to consolify the SH series (and mentioning The Sims is a strawman), but why this abhorrence for giving the men under your command a little more depth?

The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings.
But surely that's not how it was? As captain, it wasn't just you and your boat. It was you, your boat and your crew. As captain, you lived with them for months at a time - why not at least give a bit more of a nod towards that fact? To me it's odd to talk about SH being a comprehensive simulation, yet the fact these machines were crewed by men is given only the most cursory of workovers. If you read any account from a WW2 submariner, he won't give just the technical accounts of a patrol (i.e. 'made crashdive after spotting plane'), he'll also talk about the crew and what was going on with them.

I do not see how the human element would add to the game. I think you're dead wrong. I agree, I wouldn't like to see some of the technical aspects watered down - definitely not 'consolised', but adding a bit more crew depth would really add 'depth' to the game.

The other thing is - is this not a valid area for the SH series to develop? We don't know if there'll be another SH, but one thing's for sure, they have to keep attracting new customers? A little bit of exposition as to the men on your boat might be just the thing to bring in a new round of customers and get them hooked on subs.

Then you might as well have a notepad next to your pc and write little stories on that
Mate - I'm not going to keep a little story pad nearby - ok? I made the suggestion for a personal captain's diary as an easy way for a game designer to give the game a bit more human interest.

[EAF274 Johan]

SH4 contains many role-playing elements, like crew names, medals, promotions, individual morale status. In my opinion it is up to the player how to use them. When I play SH4, I try to pay attention to these things, e.g. I will try to remember the name of a crewmember who got injured or of the officer in charge of important repairs, and they will be on top of my list when medals are to be distributed.

So no, I don't think SH4 needs more role-plaing elements, they are already there. If you want to do without them you can just ignore them, but if you want to use them, you can :up: Of course there's always room for improvement, like the captain's log that was suggested (I like the idea!).

The only thing that really limits the way I feel about my simulated crew is the lack of crew speech. If my officers would give an audible acknowledgement of all orders, or if there would be some more random background speech (like cries when the boat is being damaged, coughing when there is a fire) I would have a much better feeling that I am in a boat with "real" people.

[Takeda Shingen]

Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?

[madjack]

Sorry - it was your sig pic - he looks like a 'hard ass' :)

[ReallyDedPoet]

Welcome to SUBSIM:up: madjack

AVG is no hard-ass. Being civil goes along way here :yep:


RDP

[Takeda Shingen]

Sorry - it was your sig pic - he looks like a 'hard ass' :)

So then it is acceptable if I judge you by your current avatar? Maturity, please. This isn't Ubi.

[Peto]

I like the idea of more crew interaction but know enough about game writing/programming to realize that another element of the game would suffer (ie poorer AI or other essential sim elements). The one thing that I think can add to creating a "closer relationship" with the crew is mandatory rotation. It was typical of US Subs to have up to a third of the crew rotated out after a patrol and the officers sometimes had to fight a "paper battle" to keep some men they really wanted on the boat.

But I do NOT want the developers to spend time on this aspect of a sim at the expense of critical game mechanics. I can always choose to rotate my crew after each patrol and--well--actually I frequently do send some 1st class petty officers packing when I get too many of them. But there are always a copuple with familiar names I like to keep aboard.

Cheers!

Peto

[Von Tonner]

You make some good points madjack. Speaking for myself I know I am far more upset so to speak when I lose a boat if I have a crew that I have captained for a few missions where some have specialised, have had promotions, decorations, experience etc. The status of your crew is a dynamical element in the game with cause = effect.

JScones built a mod in SH3 called SH3 Commander which went some way to increase the human element. Unfortunately he is not going to do it for SH4 (for valid reasons) but has offered his knowledge to any other modder who wants to bring this into SH4. Here is hoping.

[donut]

Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?
Agreed: name calling is not an Officer.& A Gentleman's bid for respect.........!:yep:

[mookiemookie]

I like the idea of more crew interaction but know enough about game writing/programming to realize that another element of the game would suffer (ie poorer AI or other essential sim elements). The one thing that I think can add to creating a "closer relationship" with the crew is mandatory rotation. It was typical of US Subs to have up to a third of the crew rotated out after a patrol and the officers sometimes had to fight a "paper battle" to keep some men they really wanted on the boat.

But I do NOT want the developers to spend time on this aspect of a sim at the expense of critical game mechanics. I can always choose to rotate my crew after each patrol and--well--actually I frequently do send some 1st class petty officers packing when I get too many of them. But there are always a copuple with familiar names I like to keep aboard.


I agree with this. I would like them to get the actual basics of simulating a submarine down pat before they attempted to make a crew simulator. I personally would be less interested in the ins and outs of the crew's life and keeping watch rotations and whatnot. That wasn't the captain's job, it was the XO's. However, adding more voices and voice notifications of critical events would be welcome.

Please drop the combative attitude as well...it's not the SubSim way!

[donut]

IMHO, If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.Right on target Sir....!

[AVGWarhawk]

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.
Heh - I wondered how long it would take before some hard-ass would mention 'consoles' and 'The Sims' in one sentence.

Look, I don't want to consolify the SH series (and mentioning The Sims is a strawman), but why this abhorrence for giving the men under your command a little more depth?

The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings.
But surely that's not how it was? As captain, it wasn't just you and your boat. It was you, your boat and your crew. As captain, you lived with them for months at a time - why not at least give a bit more of a nod towards that fact? To me it's odd to talk about SH being a comprehensive simulation, yet the fact these machines were crewed by men is given only the most cursory of workovers. If you read any account from a WW2 submariner, he won't give just the technical accounts of a patrol (i.e. 'made crashdive after spotting plane'), he'll also talk about the crew and what was going on with them.

I do not see how the human element would add to the game. I think you're dead wrong. I agree, I wouldn't like to see some of the technical aspects watered down - definitely not 'consolised', but adding a bit more crew depth would really add 'depth' to the game.

The other thing is - is this not a valid area for the SH series to develop? We don't know if there'll be another SH, but one thing's for sure, they have to keep attracting new customers? A little bit of exposition as to the men on your boat might be just the thing to bring in a new round of customers and get them hooked on subs.

Then you might as well have a notepad next to your pc and write little stories on that Mate - I'm not going to keep a little story pad nearby - ok? I made the suggestion for a personal captain's diary as an easy way for a game designer to give the game a bit more human interest.
Hardass I'm not. Creating a fantasy world with a 3D generated crew on a hard drive talking or repeating the same old dribble does not make sense to me. Sure, you hear the same old voices that pertain to the operation of the boat and what is happening. I do not need to stand infront of a 3D generated person and talk about Mary Jane Rottencrotch in the last port of call. Also, adding crew depth I do not believe will attract more customers to the genre. Selling a complete, bug free game will do that. As I stated, the only depth I need to see is increasing more voices of things happening, ie depth charge in water, ship spotted....one warship, two merchants.... something to this effect. How is looking at a guy and hear him repeat at every sitting..."Do you want to play Cribbage?" crew interaction?

[AVGWarhawk]

IMHO, If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.Right on target Sir....!
Exactly Donut! I need more chatter from sonar, WO and Weapons Officer. I'm not talking about the latest crap game interaction either. I need hardcore current information on the DD coming my way!!!!

[alunatic]

Ah the internet.

Write a posting that asks for a thoughtful response...

...and get a dashed-off reply by 'alunatic' who misses the point, several commas, fullstops and misrepresents what you've written.

Gotta love it:up:

First I was drunk last night and second it really dosent matter about punctuation.

[Gunner]

Easy on the rum mates :lol: Nuth' wrong with expressing opinions. personaly I'd like a LITTLE more crew interaction. Anvart an someone else is working on clickable crew members. Maybe we will see something good come out of it, your option to use it or not:arrgh!:

[John Channing]

AVG is no hard-ass.


RDP

Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

[ReallyDedPoet]

AVG is no hard-ass.


RDP
Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

And you do it well :up:


RDP

[cali03boss]

There is a very logical and rational idea to solve this entire issue. Turn your computer room into a submarine. Close the windows when you dive, shut the blinds, and dont shower. Have your wife/girlfriend only give you meals at certain times of the day and tell him/her to nag at you in a sailor's voice.


Really...this is a game...not reality. If you want to play the game at 1x time compression from port, talk to your seamen, interact with the devices, write in a diary....

....join the Navy.

I really don't understand the need for more 'immersion' in something that is not trying to be the parallel to reality in the 1940s pacific. The game is SPECIFICALLY about commanding a submarine with the intent of shooting torpedos and sinking ships. Everything else is a side BENEFIT......the fact that its based on a real war, the fact that the boats were real, the fact that we have crews to mess with, the fact theres damage.....those are all side benefits. You're talking about bringing reality into the whole equation which is just a foolish idea. Not only would it cost countless more manhours to produce the AI and diverse settings for crew immersion, but it would also just be a wasted effort. The SH4 community won't like the game more just because the developers make some radical new immersion system.


You don't have to be a smartass just because you find a few things about the game wrong. And yes, from your very first post, you came off as a smartass.

[Skyhawk]

Gents,

Let's all not forget that in r/l submariners were/are picked for their emotional stability and lack of "drama" in the first place.

While I agree that a bit of small talk would add to the overall atmosphere of the sim and help to bring the crew to life, so-to-speak, it's really not necessary IMHO.

I think it's a question of imagination, and a user's ability to use a little bit of it when playing a subsim.

If you really want consequences, or a reason to pause before acting on those command decisions, then play with the TM v1.4 mod, and play "dead is dead" @ 100% realism. Really brings the game to life for me. Well, as much as possible anyway considering that I'm sitting in front of a PC in my 'puter room, all at about 2,000'MSL (local elevation where I live).

No disprespect intended to anyone, the above is merely my opinion.

Regards

[AVGWarhawk]

AVG is no hard-ass.


RDP
Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

Yeah, good cop, bad cop thing;)

[Iron Budokan]

I also thought the human element was sorely missing from SH4. It seemed more sterile in tone than SH3, to me.

[FAdmiral]

Anybody ever play PTO2 by KOEI. Every month you had a meeting with
5 other major AI player to form the next months policy. I really enjoyed
that feature but have never seen it in any other wargame. Maybe someday
we will see a feature like that expanded upon. When gripes me about most of these tactical games is the "fragmentation". Nothing is connected to the BIG
picture. Thats why I still play "War in the Pacific" was everything is linked
to the entire Pacific Theatre...

JIM

[AVGWarhawk]

Gents,

Let's all not forget that in r/l submariners were/are picked for their emotional stability and lack of "drama" in the first place.

While I agree that a bit of small talk would add to the overall atmosphere of the sim and help to bring the crew to life, so-to-speak, it's really not necessary IMHO.

I think it's a question of imagination, and a user's ability to use a little bit of it when playing a subsim.

If you really want consequences, or a reason to pause before acting on those command decisions, then play with the TM v1.4 mod, and play "dead is dead" @ 100% realism. Really brings the game to life for me. Well, as much as possible anyway considering that I'm sitting in front of a PC in my 'puter room, all at about 2,000'MSL (local elevation where I live).

No disprespect intended to anyone, the above is merely my opinion.

Regards
Good opinion! I always believed the SH series required a great imagination. You are dead on with the imagination...this game requires it. It takes imagination by the wonderful modders to come up with the things they do. It takes your imagination to really enjoy this type of simulation and keep your interest. What is nice about this game and using your imagination, nothing is really scripted for you to any extent. I often find the maze like games with things to find to move on to the next level darn boring, yet this game....the entire ocean is yours to play in with your imagination. Would a humanized crew be nice? Sure. Is it necessary, not really in my opinion. What is necessary is a crew who is on the ball when the rubber meets the road. Right now we have about half of that with the silent crew.

[ReallyDedPoet]

I think it's a question of imagination, and a user's ability to use a little bit of it when playing a subsim.


Good point:up:


RDP

[C DuDe]

There is a very logical and rational idea to solve this entire issue. Turn your computer room into a submarine. Close the windows when you dive, shut the blinds, and dont shower. Have your wife/girlfriend only give you meals at certain times of the day and tell him/her to nag at you in a sailor's voice.


:rotfl: :rotfl:


Glad I'm single then :yep:

Had one like that once she had the naggin part well under control but the communication it self was a bit weird.... me going "dive, dive, dive" and she'd reply "did you do the dishes".. or "man the deck gun" and getting "don't forget to take out the garbage" as a response.

Suffices to say it didn't quite work out, so one time I did take the garbage out. :smug:

[taliss]

I think the idea of making the game a little more human, is a good one.

There was a World War I flight sim I used to play on the Amiga called 'Wings' that did it quite well. It focused around the pilot character, he used to write letters back to his family with stories of the missions that he had done (you had done) and the characters around you in the game. If one of your fellow pilots was killed he wrote about it. It made the game really personal, and you became attached to the squadron.

The Wing commander series did the human thing quite well too. Maybe they will add something for SHV, who knows.

[Von Tonner]

You don't have to be a smartass just because you find a few things about the game wrong. And yes, from your very first post, you came off as a smartass.
Let me see if I have this correct. It is ok for a poster to call another a smartass but when it comes to a moderator different rules apply?Takeda Shingen:[/quote]Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?
[/quote]


__________________

[AVGWarhawk]

You don't have to be a smartass just because you find a few things about the game wrong. And yes, from your very first post, you came off as a smartass.
Let me see if I have this correct. It is ok for a poster to call another a smartass but when it comes to a moderator different rules apply?Takeda Shingen:Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?
[/quote]


__________________[/quote]

I do not understand what you are trying to say here. All community members are asked to refrain from name calling. Perhaps we do not catch all of the offending posts but normally we are directed to them by a member who is the focus of the post. It is dealt with at that point through PM. Last I checked, this was a thread on humanizing SH4, not hunting around for moderator issues. If you have something constructive to add to this thread, please do so. If you have an issue with the moderators please exercise your right to PM any of them (including myself) for further explanation. If need be we can take it right to the top. Your call.....

[macky]

I have to reply to this because I totally agree with the OP. It is really missing that personal touch.

For example, BIA (yeah I know, but stay with me) really made you feel for your team. For a start if anyone died they were as human-computer like as your own toon and usually made the fighting that tad bit harder.

I dont want an RPG, but give us some reactions, chatter, laughter...perhaps if someone dies lets have a funeral at sea :smug:

In all honesty, the graphics are awesome, why couldn't they put in better crew reactions while they were at it (and where is my bloody WO:stare:)?

[John Channing]

I'm gonna guess that it might be because they only had 11 months to put the entire sim together so they had to prioritize.

JCC

[LukeFF]

First I was drunk last night and second it really dosent matter about punctuation.

If you want your posts to be taken seriously, then yes, punctuation is important. Posts written like yours I just skip over, because they're usually irrelevant to the conversation, anyways.

[madjack]

Heh - have just come back to this post and see that its generated some 'chatter'.

I respect all your opinions (and recognise that calling a moderator a 'hard ass' was sailing a bit close to the wind :D - sorry about that AVG).

But I still stand by my original point - SH4 is sterile. I know the arguments regarding programmer resources and the fear that existing tech issues may be neglected - I also would like to hear more crew responses to orders, but some additional game resources devoted to fleshing out who your crew are would add to the immersion and probably bring new simmers to the game. That's my firm opinion.

I do not need to stand infront of a 3D generated person and talk about Mary Jane Rottencrotch in the last port of call
Oh come on. See, I know you're a moderator AVG, but that's conjuring up an extreme argument to try and bolster your opinion - an absurdity. Really - 'Mary Jane Rottencrotch'?

[capcup007]

Hi all,



My first post in this forum.


To minimise the feeling of just steering a dot across the map, I always play with NoMapUpdates enabled, no matter playing vanilla or one of the larger mods.

Speech was a big disapointment coming from SH3. There are crewmembers that almost make you feel asleep.

The non-clickable crew never really bothered me. I found the ingame text to be much more annoying. These helpballoons at times looked silly and made me feel like an amateur. So I removed or reduced them if possible. Translating into my native Dutch also added to the atmosphere.

Imagination is a very important factor. Reading a book can be more thrilling than watching a movie based on that same book.

[AVGWarhawk]

Heh - have just come back to this post and see that its generated some 'chatter'.

I respect all your opinions (and recognise that calling a moderator a 'hard ass' was sailing a bit close to the wind :D - sorry about that AVG).

But I still stand by my original point - SH4 is sterile. I know the arguments regarding programmer resources and the fear that existing tech issues may be neglected - I also would like to hear more crew responses to orders, but some additional game resources devoted to fleshing out who your crew are would add to the immersion and probably bring new simmers to the game. That's my firm opinion.

I do not need to stand infront of a 3D generated person and talk about Mary Jane Rottencrotch in the last port of call
Oh come on. See, I know you're a moderator AVG, but that's conjuring up an extreme argument to try and bolster your opinion - an absurdity. Really - 'Mary Jane Rottencrotch'?


Call me what you like just don't call me late for dinner;) . Yes, Mary Jane, every knows her....really knows her. Usually opinions to not need to bolstered, right or wrong they are after all just opinions. Now, facts are a whole different ballgame. I have noticed that the crew are clickable but all they do is just stand there and look at you. Perhaps one of the modders will turn this into something good and more interactive thus fulfilling some of the players need to have a interactive crew that is somewhat more human like. :hmm:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Welcome to SUBSIM :up: capcup007


RDP

[MENTAT]

Anybody ever play PTO2 by KOEI. Every month you had a meeting with 5 other major AI player to form the next months policy. I really enjoyed
that feature but have never seen it in any other wargame. ...
JIM

Yes and that is why i stll play it sometimes, even its obsolete in interface, graphics... There is no such a game ever created (maybe imperialism 1) it is surely immortal.

And the meetings were an awesom idea indeed. You were not only dealing with the battles in the pacific, but also giving another challenge to your own government/cabinet for getting more resources, budget for the navy as well as industry and technological direction.

it is too sad, they dont make such games today. I would spent 60 bucks with my eyes closed for a "revised version" of PTO2.

[JALU3]

I like the idea of more crew interaction but know enough about game writing/programming to realize that another element of the game would suffer (ie poorer AI or other essential sim elements). The one thing that I think can add to creating a "closer relationship" with the crew is mandatory rotation. It was typical of US Subs to have up to a third of the crew rotated out after a patrol and the officers sometimes had to fight a "paper battle" to keep some men they really wanted on the boat.

But I do NOT want the developers to spend time on this aspect of a sim at the expense of critical game mechanics. I can always choose to rotate my crew after each patrol and--well--actually I frequently do send some 1st class petty officers packing when I get too many of them. But there are always a copuple with familiar names I like to keep aboard.

Cheers!

Peto
1/3 Mandatory Crew Rotations . . . that would be great to have simulated in the game . . . I'd imagine the best Officers and CPOs would have been prized assets to any crew. I can imagine some crewmembers not liking one command environment, while loving others . . . trying to get posted to boat X for this reason or boat Y for another reason . . . this would make a great mod. Having to pay to keep certain crewmembers out of your renown pool, having to pay to get rid of certain "problem" crewmembers . . .

[amurph182]

But I still stand by my original point - SH4 is sterile. I know the arguments regarding programmer resources and the fear that existing tech issues may be neglected - I also would like to hear more crew responses to orders, but some additional game resources devoted to fleshing out who your crew are would add to the immersion and probably bring new simmers to the game. That's my firm opinion.


the ideas you've presented so far wouldn't do anything to bolster the feeling of actually having a crew that is an important part of the boat. A note in a diary about a birthday? Are you serious? This is nothing more than, to use your reference, a line on the spreadsheet.

If you want to create a feeling of actually having and caring about a crew, then the crew needs to have a greater impact on the operation of the boat. Crew skill levels need to be more important, such as having experienced men on the helm able to maintain periscope depth in rough water while a relatively green crew has you broaching from time to time in relatively calm weather. A good crew member should be able to give you pinpoint accuracy on sonar, while a greenhorn should miss the mark by several degrees. Needless to say that there should be very few top skilled men per boat, and most of them should be just above minimum during the early war period, with general crew skill growing over time. And it should take a long time for skills to increase.

Speaking of crew abilities, you shouldn't be able to recruit anyone at all, especially not top men. Members of your crew would need to be trasferred out after each patrol and replaced with a random skill level. How would you feel if your veteran COB was trasferred out after you had built him into a superman? What if an officer's replacement was worthless?

these are things that would foster an attachment to the crew.

[minsc_tdp]

Using voice command makes the crew seem a little more real - nothing like hearing an immediate "yes sir!" and sometimes a repeat of what you asked for, like an XO, when you indicate something specific. Sometimes it's slightly off though, which can be a little humorous:

"make your depth 100 feet"
"new depth 99 feet aye sir!"

eh close enough :)

[simonb1612]

As a side note, when exactly does crew morale ever change and what effect does it have?
None of the medal recipients have ever shown a change in morale (ie happy to be alive to to receiving the purple heart), nor have I seen anything other that "normal" as a moral status....I would have thought that they would show "slightly happy" at sinking a small merchant or "overjoyed" at getting an IJN carrier. But No not a flicker on the old emotion meter. Hell I am English and these guys seem stoic to me!

[Rockin Robbins]

Let's talk about real interpersonal dynamics in a WWII submarine. On a submarine there were three general groups of people.

There was the officer corps, a group who had some comraderie, however a very stratified one. When the captain made the decision to stay at periscope depth and watch that destroyer try to kill them all, he was god of his boat. Unless he gave specific permission for the XO to make suggestions, that was it. Some captains did reach out to their fellow officers, at least in a way that showed he cared about their well-being. I doubt he spent any time musing about someone's birthday, and he sure wouldn't have called him "Bob." It would have been Lt. Smith. The officers did talk among themselves to have good working relationships, but strict military discipline prevented any normal personal relationships. Captains had to make decisions that got people killed. Anything which interfered with that orderly process could not be tolerated. Officers and enlisted men did not talk outside of issuing and receiving orders. No birthday cards!

Then there were the enlisted men and non-coms. These were the grunts, never consulted for their opinions, drilled constantly to do their jobs automatically while the world flew apart all around them until something killed them. By and large they did just that. Among themselves, the crew were very informal and clannish. Practical jokes were rife and many were on a first-name basis with each other. Generally they resented the unbreachable gulf between the officer-gods and the crew, who often knew better than them what to do with the submarine. Don't believe it? Just ask em! They always have an opinion and they're always swapping scuttlebut. But not to officers: they're scum.

The third group was a group of one: the chief of the boat. He was the only conduit between the officers and the men on board. In reality, the chief of the boat was probably the most powerful man on board, the one who knew his boat best, and the one with the most skills of anyone, officer or enlisted. He moved in both worlds of the submarine, making them function together as a team. He was in charge of training and qualification of crew members for different specialties. If there was a rare time when the officers needed to pay attention to an individual crew memeber, it was the chief of the boat that brought it to their attention. If the officers didn't work well with the chief of the boat, the chief had a thousand ways to make them pay. If the crew revolted against the chief of the boat they'd be better off to cuss out the captain. At least then death would be quick and easy.

If you want to know about interpersonal relations aboard a sub, read "Torpedoman", by Ron Smith. Here is an excerpt from the liner notes:

The story begins with a young American as he prepares for war. As the story unfolds, we follow his personal growth as it was influenced by the ever-present spector of the war. The story moves into the real area of combat unique to submarines with its physical and emotional demands that challenge human endurance--where the desire to perform one's duty is in constant conflict with the desire to live. A near mutiny occurs as the crew struggles with the decision of sacrificing themselves by blindly following orders or disobeying and surviving.

The book is a somewhat fictionalized story of Ron Smith's career as a torpedoman. It is copyright 1990, and bears no publisher information, so this book may just have been distributed at the convention of the US Submarine Veterans of WWII convention of that year. It is inscribed "To Warren Watkins, Best Regards, Ron Smith" and dated 10-1-1999. If you can find it you will understand the crew interactions. They did not involve musing about "Bob's birthday."

We project ourselves and our comparitively utopian lives, motivations and values on men who did not share them. They were much more at home swapping stories about their common experiences with Mary Jane Rottencrotch. These guys had no future. They did not expect to return home. An encounter with Mary Jane and subsequent treatment for unpronounceable diseases caught from her were cause for bragging and laughter, ribbing and horseplay. Navy enlisted sailors are smelly, foul-mouthed, profane, crude, brash and a hell of a lot of fun. When you know you're going to die, nothing is important or meaningful but the moment.

Have you heard of Stateside poker? This was a poker game where all bets were IOU's to be paid when (if) the crew survived to go stateside. The astronomical size of debts owed showed that every man considered himself dead, betting money that would never exist. Every one of them had given up on life, but was continuing anyway. Das Boot was a bit surreal sometimes, but often caught this very real crew dynamic.

Are you sure you would be entertained by all that?

[donut]

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons. Your stories,& humor are quite,FUN ! keep up the good faith,Sir.

[Rockin Robbins]

Your stories,& humor are quite,FUN ! keep up the good faith,Sir.

Just having fun while honoring the men who fought and trying to participate in helping other players understand and enjoy the game. And learning twice as much from all the great people here! Ain't that what Subsim is all about?:up:

[LukeFF]

If you want to create a feeling of actually having and caring about a crew, then the crew needs to have a greater impact on the operation of the boat. Crew skill levels need to be more important, such as having experienced men on the helm able to maintain periscope depth in rough water while a relatively green crew has you broaching from time to time in relatively calm weather. A good crew member should be able to give you pinpoint accuracy on sonar, while a greenhorn should miss the mark by several degrees. Needless to say that there should be very few top skilled men per boat, and most of them should be just above minimum during the early war period, with general crew skill growing over time. And it should take a long time for skills to increase.

Plus, crew skills should affect how reliable a piece of equipment operates. Anyone who's served in the military knows things break down at all times, good and bad. WWII submarines were no different. Engines and motors break down, they catch fire and they run louder than they should. Radar? An infant technology with bugs still being worked out. Bulbs burnt out, vacuum tubes broke, circuits shorted, etc. AA guns jam, barrels overheat, periscopes leak, buoyancy vents jam, etc. etc. As it is now, we have perfectly functioning boats that only break down upon suffering enemy fire or grounding. A realisticly-portrayed crew SHOULD affect the rate of these types of breakdowns and how quickly they can be repaired, if at all.

[seaniam81]

There is a very logical and rational idea to solve this entire issue. Turn your computer room into a submarine. Close the windows when you dive, shut the blinds, and dont shower. Have your wife/girlfriend only give you meals at certain times of the day and tell him/her to nag at you in a sailor's voice.



I did this and now she makes me hot bunk. :p
Now it's a true simulation:rotfl: :rotfl:

[donut]

To:Officers thru Bilge seaman,hear this !
After 6 mo.of playing SHIV,The "Date line bug",never fixed. The "Domino Effect"{your dead in 30 seconds no reason}still exists. Modding is trying to push the envelope of graphics,past the art of the game engine.Scripted layers,are building planes in the middle of the ocean,& cargo convoys are scarce.Jan.1945
We are using T_M_1-6,not patched,because on patrol.We have smoke on the water,like we just sank something? following us around. We have no torp gyro off-set line on attack map. Ship.tga shape files not found on Nav.map. Having downloaded the patch,& waiting to return to port,Midway if we can dock,Pearl if we must,to start outside harbor,again Midway. To get torp trac back,hopefully? we have removed the zones.cfg from the mod patch,because 5 fish is a waste of ordinance/not much fun to sink something.
I wanted to elaborate on "Domino Effect",we just put two fish in a liner,she turned turtle, that was cool our first time to see real sinking. Crashed dived to thermal,went silent,full rt.rudder,speed 1 kt to 200 ft.,went to external cam,to ck out DDs Ops.,nothing within 1,000 yds. all of a sudden catastrophic domino damage,blackscreen you have had It ! 7%previous hull?
It's not a wonder,that this game does frustrate,even the salty Skippers. Thinking about aborting patrol,& patching,or going back to tested 1.5_T_M. Does anyone have a link to T_M_1.5,needed to reverse engineer missing files.Is it worth it ?(Unknown)
We need at least one genius file manipulating code developer committed to state of the art understanding of nodes,& file connections,or this baby will be sterial for life.The crew of automotons; IE.There are phrases for them to say in response to orders,that aren't connected. The game is so unfinished/not as intended by the dev team,that it makes one think it has cancer. The state of the art, perhaps has not come very far since SH1 10 yrs ago ! What a shame Bill Gates has made millions,so can game play in computers technology,again pleading for SHIV's success.>>Fan Buoy,Donut