[TEC] Can MG and 20mm fire be made dangerous to our subs?

[tater]

It's pretty absurd how rare it is for my deck crew to take damage in combat. Strafed? It's just noise. DD, other escort, or even a merchant lets go with a fusillade of 25mm? Nada.

The only time I ever hear "Medic!" is a second or 2 before the boat goes down. (shouldn't that be "Doc!" BTW? What would they call the pharmacist's mate, medic is an Army term).

Anyway, It would be nice if the sub could be damaged by such fire, or more importantly if the CREW on deck could be made vulnerable.

Any ideas?

tater

[Peto]

Good question (and yes--Doc would be more appropriate). As far as I've read, it typically took large caliber (3" plus) to actually cause serious hull damage to a sub. As far as the small stuff, I'm pretty sure I've had a couple guys gunned down by a plane once when the bombs missed and there was no other damage. They were both wounded. But I "think" that was the only time that happened (although I try to avoid such action as I have no proclivity for being shot at :lol: ).

I'm interested what other paople's experiences with this are.

But I bet all the code that controls that function is deeply imbedded...

Cheers!

Peto

[Sailor Steve]

Yes, "Doc" would be better. In the navy he's called a corpsman, but nobody ever actually says that.

[tater]

There was that bug with the deck crew dying, was the fix to make them hard to kill?

tater

[Ducimus]

The easy answer might be to simply increase the shell damage, assuming its independant of the players.

Or maybe, lower the armor rating on the player sub, but that might backfire where DC's are concerned.

[tater]

Yeah, I thought of upping 20/25mm damage. Even if whacked by DD main guns I only rarely suffer deck casualties, I think somethign else is going on.

Fixing this would go a long way to ending "gunboat" submarines.

Would make some of the lessr armed craft more interesting if you run into them, right nw you can literally ignore 20mm, and 20mm is nasty.

tater

[Ducimus]

Ahh, i just rememberd, in TMaru i upped the crews hitpoints. Default i think is 5, they have 10 or something like that. (i scaled that to SH3, where crew had 12 or 15, go figure).

It's an old fix for the dead watch crew shennanigans. Maybe its high time i remove that file from the mod.

[tater]

Even in stock my crew almost never get wounded on deck...

there is a reason I want this :D

tater

[Ducimus]

Well i can't find in my old readme where i adjust crew HP,s but i KNOW i did. Probably back when Tmaru was FTT and i was focused more on workarounds and bugfixes. As soon as i find the file, im removing those changes. After that, its back to upping shell damage maybe?

edit: Oh ya ive often thought of upping machine gun range and accuracy. (insert evil laugh here).

[tater]

Actually, it's interesting to see how close you can get to some MG armed craft before they open up...

tater

[Ducimus]

Just FYI, now that im home doing a file comparision, i DID bring the HPs down on the crew back to 5. I did this sometime when i intergrated the realistic crew mod into TMaru, so thats not the issue.

I am however, intrested in this little line in the sim.cfg

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=1000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=7 ;[s]

Now, im pretty sure that effects the AI, but i *think* it also effects your own AA crew. For instance i would love to change this to say, 4000 and find the Node name for machaine guns so i can have zekes straff me. however, that will probably also increase my own AA gun crews range to 4000 as well. The real solution might be in
Data\Library\ShipParts\Guns_Radars_0.*. dat, and extend the gun range on a particular gun there. I was looking through those before, and im pretty sure the guns are in one of those 3 files. Naturally theres no tweak file that im aware of, and i diging through the file by other means, i just don't have the motivation to pick through it and write one.

[tater]

I've see than section before. 4000 is a bit long for 20mm, but I might make a mod that greatly reduces the aim error just to see if they are simply missing.

The big thing is that a 20mm armed ship, regardless of size, should not be something a sub ignores and battles on the surface within 20mm gunnery range.

Even those gunboats we see should be scary if you have deck crew (even without the larger gun).

tater

[tater]

BTW, while not the direct fix I'd like to see (re:zero strafing), I have a way to possibly get them to strafe. We take one of the bombs and drop the damage to zero, and in fact delete the physical bomb altogether (and the impact splash it makes, etc). Then they will come in to bomb, and they will strafe.

[tater]

I tried some experiments with the upc files, no dice---but I'm pretty weak at these files.

This is a critical failure, IMO.

Surface actions are a joke because of this. Read RL accounts, and as soon as even a sampan shoots back they usually open the range, then try to engage outside small arms/MG range to protect the gun crews who are so very very exposed.

Making the AAA guns more than window dressing on the target ships would go a long way to minimizing the effectiveness of the deck guns and forcing more realistic surface actions on the subs.

tater

[CaptainHaplo]

Tater - I will fiddle with the UPC's and whatnot to see if I cant get something that works. Due to all the mods that folks use, I will just post what (if anything) change or changes are effective to get some deck gun crew casualties. Will do a bit on it tommorow as it should be a day I can relax some. No guarantees but what the heck.

[Der Teddy Bar]

To make the crew manning the Deck and the AA guns mare vulnerable you will need to increase the portion/multiplier of damage that the crew will receive by adjusting the CrewExposure= under ArtilleryRoom & FlakRoom in the SubName.UPC.

To make the bridge crew more vulnerable you will need to adjust the [TowerWatch] armour value from 15 to 9 as 9 is the 20mm shell's default AP value without taking into consideration the AP variable.

EDIT: Lost in the cut/paste/re-edit/post... For the Bridge you will need in addition to adjusting the Zones.cfg [TowerWatch] armour to adjust the CrewExposure= within the UnitParts#SubName.upc. As there are 3 conning towers for the Salmon you will need to adjust all 3 in the UnitParts5Salmon.upc file

The CrewExposure= value I tested with was 9.0.

P.S. So hard to get good help now days..........

The 20mm is used by the ships AA guns & aircraft guns.

While this will result in the on duty crew getting wounded/killed it will also result in the off duty crew getting wounded/killed at the same rate.

Another consideration will be that of the affect this will have on the casualties via depth charges.

It is my view that this area is operationally impaired.

[Ducimus]

I keep forgetting just how much is crammed into those UPC files. Thanks DTB, you saved us alot of fruitless labor.

[tater]

Yeah, very interesting. I'd rather drop the DC damage and have 20mm lethal.

tater

[tater]

I messed with the crew exposure.

I picked Sargo, and made a mode that changed it from the default values (0.3 I think) to 0.9/ Parked next to a ship armed with AAA and sat there. I took out the ships screws, and sat there for ages, no damage at all with constant AAA hitting all over the sub maybe a boat length away.

What do I need to change that to?

tater

[Der Teddy Bar]

I keep forgetting just how much is crammed into those UPC files. Thanks DTB, you saved us alot of fruitless labor I have me moments :rotfl:


I messed with the crew exposure.

I picked Sargo, and made a mode that changed it from the default values (0.3 I think) to 0.9/ Parked next to a ship armed with AAA and sat there. I took out the ships screws, and sat there for ages, no damage at all with constant AAA hitting all over the sub maybe a boat length away.

What do I need to change that to?

tater I tested with a value of 9.0. Also remember that there is 3 conning towers for the Salmon so you will need to adjust all 3 in the UPC file.

[tater]

I did adjust all 3, actually. I think I assumed that the 0,3/0.5 it was by default meant they value had to be 1 or less, I didn't try >1.

I will now.

[tater]

Some of the names are confusing, lol.

I got to test again (during 2-3am baby duty, lol).

I set the crew exposure to 9 in the Submarine/*.upc file, and in the unit upc file inside UPCData, too. I tested vs a small combatant with AA guns, and managed to get a couple guys wounded, and 1 killed. I took her down, and intentionally got DCed pretty badly and wasn't losing crew, though I think 1 got wounded.

Seems promising.

More testing needed.

[tater]

I tested this a little more, and it seems to be OK for DC attacks. It needs some tweaking cause damage to crew is still pretty rare, I think I will combine this (for testing) with a mod that reduces the AI aim error on the guns to 0 or 1 degree so I know they are hitting me.

Is the "observation room" the bridge (with the early war conning tower)?

tater

[tater]

I dropped the armor from 15 to 9, and I changed the exposure to 9.

I sat among a group of small craft armed with 25mm guns, and lost 8 men after several minutes of pounding.

Will need some DC testing, too.

You are right, it also affects the off duty crew though.

I need to test with battle stations off. Perhaps battle stations treats them all as in the compartment. Seems like it would have made more sense to have the off duty deck watch crew go to damage control in battle stations though.

I'll have to test that. I wonder if I can order battle stations, then drag all my off duty deck watch crew to damage control... I'd be perfectly willing to have to do that to manually order "battle surface."


Hmmm

[tater]

So far at "battle surface" with the above mod altering crew vulnerability I have lost 3 men down in 60 minutes. The aim error combined with the fact the AA gunners don't really aim at the bits with the crew (more MOT type aiming) means that's not that far fetched. So far the crew moved to DC seems protected.

So any mod that increases deck watch vulnerability might require the skipper to drag 8 guys to DC, which is fine by me.

Actually, I might (as an honor system for my own play) only drag some of the off duty crew. The deck gun has no loaders on deck, just the 2 steering the gun. In reality there'd be at least 4 guys on that gun, and if they were passing ammo, likely at least 2 more. I'd treat the wounded/killed deck watch guys as having been on deck passing ammo, etc.

tater

[tater]

tested how the changes suggested by DTB affect DC results.

Poorly.

DC wiped out the deck watch in short order.

[tater]

Given the unfortunate DC results, looks like upping 20/25mm damage values might be the way to go.

Is there a tweak file for that?

tater

[Ducimus]

My guess thats in the shells.zon. Hasnt changed in any patch version. Hell, i think one from SH3 might work. I know i have one at home, can post it later if you want.

[tater]

I looked at the sh3 tweaker for that, and it doesn't even list a 25mm.

tater

[Ducimus]

Well i know the deck gun and Flak gun ammo's in the shells.zon, but its not using a direct translation in name. The 3'25 (or is that 3'50?) for example is using the 88MM ammo, and the 4'25 is using the 105MM ammo.

[tater]

Think the 25 just uses 20mm?

tater

[tater]

I tweaked the 20mm.

There are 3 types, I assumed the ships used the "AA" type and AP/HE was player guns. I left player guns alone, and changed AA from 2-4 to 15-16.

Nothing.

Maybe I should bump all 3 kinds.

[Ducimus]

Or im wrong? But i could swear its using the shells.zon, i can't be wrong cause id still have stock AA and deck guns effectiveness if i was.

Maybe the answer is, "what did ships of this type use in SH3?" Thats how i figured out which ammo types to tweak.

[tater]

Well, I only changed the one ammo type, the "AA" cause I don;t want players to have uber 20mm.

I had to up the damage above the 40mm because I tested the 40mm vs sub crews, and it's equally ineffective. They just don't get wounded or killed.

Is the "exposure" a multiplier on damage?

tater

[tater]

OK, I changed all 3 20mm types in the old SH3 shells.zon tweaker file (the 25mm indeed uses this file). I upped the damage so the max was over 15 for all, and the mins were between 10 and 13.

An armed fishing boat, a small gunboat (all guns replaced by double 25mm), and a medium gunboat (all deck guns replaced with triple 25mm, all others with double 25mm) killed me within a couple minutes---given the death cam, maybe I was actually killed, the sub was afloat, but had flooding in the forward compartment that was hammered with 20mm. I surfaced among them and let them chew me up at point blank range, basically.

This result seemed a little over the top, but frankly, only a little.

I think upping the AAA damage will solve the invulnerability of the crew without nasty DC related effects. I will try a hybrid mod that more gently increases deck watch and gun "exposure." As I recall from an earlier test, negative effects with DCing were more a function of the reduced armor change in the zones file.

The down side is that 20 and 40mm might become pretty nasty. Perhaps combined with werner's sinking mod, this might be OK since you won;t get the bogus effect of hitpoints blowing a ship up.

I'm willing to accept using his mod as a reasonable compromise (doesn;t hurt that I like it anyway, lol).

tater

[Ducimus]

Nice work :up:

[tater]

Well, now that I know that 10-15 damage actually does something, I will dial it down until it JUST becomes actually dangerous to either the crew (ideal) or the sub itself.

I'd rather have it almost exclusively affect the crew, but if it trashes the boat, so be it. Honestly, I think being hit by loads of 20mm would ruin a sub pretty quickly. Japanese escorts were wrecked by little more than 50 cal fire---of course 5th AF doctrine was one plane strafing (8 to 12+ 50 cals firing!) on ingress to bomb while another sprayed from a different angle to help keep their heads down.

The bottom line is that such fire should do SOME damage to the sub. Any at all would make dealing with an AA armed foe on a surface a choice for the skipper with plusses and minuses. The big question would be accuracy at night I think. I don't want a situation where a night surface attack is impossible, but I do think that being able to literally ignore AAA fire is absurtd (and right now no AAA fire does any damage to a sub. Ever. I've done loads of testing)

BTW, 2 of the tweak values are a radius. While small (presumably in meters) they are set to 0.3 and 0.5 I think. If cranking up the damage makes them overly nasty, could that be mitigated by dialing the range down? They should really only do damage a small multiple of their diameter (0.02m). What I seek is 20mm that will kill or badly wound a crewman if it hits, but doesn;t spread damage around much (20mm splinters would be dangerous to crew, but would do exactly squat to a sub).

Perhaps I should set the radius as low as is possible, with .1 as the absolute max.

tater

[tater]

Hmm. This is very very interesting.

So I dialed the damage down. The radius, too. 20mm AP I gave a radius of... 20mm, for example.

Sub is getting hammered for a while. So far so good. I put the skipper below near the chart thinking my spinning death cam might have been "me" on deck getting killed. Below, there are leaks everywhere. Check damage. NOTHING on DC screen. Go back below. More leaks. Lights start blinking. Lights go out. We start taking flooding.
I look at the DC screen. compartments start to flood, stern to bow. flood, systems all go red (water part way up, not total flooding) in that compartment. Next floods, same, then next, then next, all the way to bow, spinnign death cam follows.

I assume what's going on is that the 20mm I made is not actually doing internal damage, but IS taking away hitpoints. At some point, the hitpoints get used up, and the compartment fails totally.

This would actually explain a lot of myster deaths people get. You duke it out with planes, or whatever, and get hit with loads of AAA. No crew are hurt (ever) so there is no reason to avoid autocannon. No damage is ever done---THAT YOU SEE---so you assume all is well. Head towards max depth to avoid ashcans... domino effect.

I'm not sure what yo do. If you make 20mm so it can do any real damage, there is enough of it flying the hitpoints are likely very low. Drop it below the amount that it shows damage to systems without wiping out the whole compartment, and you never know you are damaged until the hull fails catastrophically.

tater

[tater]

BTW, there IS damage being done by the AAA, I understand this now. Since the crew is invulnerable (which is still absurd), we just don't see it.

The damage you get form strafing, and near miss bombs, etc is HITPOINT damage. Not enough to damage systems, might not punch a hole and cause a leak that you see on the DC screen, but it IS causing damage---yuo see blinking lights, etc.

Ducimus will understand this exactly, I know.

The lights blink, etc. This is a sign your HITPOINTS are below some threshhold. Hitpoints are NOT repaired.

This is really something that the players should know about---not a % damage meter, but the fact that ALL such damage is cumulative. Read all those reports of people with wierd leaks for no reason on patrol when they look inside? A guy with a wrench always fixing? THAT is the indicator it's time to go to the barn.

tater

[tater]

Wonder what the "flak room" and "artilllery room" do when they have their hitpoints reduced... they start at 200, if they are destroyed, does it leak? Wasn't that an early bug, the guns take damage an the hull leaks?

Making the guns easier to totally destroy is another option that might have less systemic effects. So you want a surface action, be careful or you lose the guns.

tater

[Ducimus]

I think your right about hitpoint damage. I beleive that game hanldes the hull/compartments, and internal components seperatly. IN SH3 for example if you wanted more things to repair, you had to lessen the armor factor and/or hitpoints on various stuff in the zones.cfg. Engines, diveplanes, or rudder for example. These can all get blown the crap, and still have your hull in good shape.

edit:
Also if one compartment is destroyed, the sub is sunk. As i recall this is how it worked in SH3, and is probable cause for the domino effect. If one compartment is destroyed, thats it, game over.

[Ducimus]

The lights blink, etc. This is a sign your HITPOINTS are below some threshhold. Hitpoints are NOT repaired.


Yup. "hull integrity" from SH3 was a percentage of how many hit points were left on the hull. How deep you can dive is based on how many hitpoints you have. The greater the HP loss, the shallower your crush depth becomes, and the faster the rate at which your hull implodes.

By default some subs like sargo or salmon only have around 320 hitpoints or so. A gato has around 600. You cannot repair hitpoints at sea. Components yes, hitpoints on the hull no, and if one compartment gets destroyed, you go to davy jones.

[tater]

It's interesting. I actually tend to be on the side of hugely increased hitpoints for ships---but still achievable. It would be possible to stress rivets, etc so that eventually things fail. the result should be mass flooding, not an explosion, however.

In terms of the subs, I think the hitpoint model makes a lot of sense. The hull gets crushed, and fractured, then depth crushes the weakened bits. Boom.

The real question becomes just how much AA fire could a sub take before becoming a wreck waiting to happen?

As Redwine, leo, werner, et al, have discovered, damage is amazigly complicated to mess with, and can possibly result in having to change damage values, not just damage models.

I already think the DCs are way too powerful, so a fix might also involve tweaking those down some. The end result that I want (just to throw it out there in the open) is a realistic gameplay. In RL, you read reports of surface actions, and a samapn might open up with a MG or 25mm, and the sub backs the heck off. They don't charge in. A surface unit, even a PT boat sized unit (a common ASW platform of the IJ Army, actually) with 25mm guns should be something that you might decide to engage, but it's not just "flank speed," BANG, BANG, BANG, BOOM.

tater

[tater]

The individual compartments on Sargo have hitpoints, too. Only 200.

Not sure what caused the sinking.

tater

[Ducimus]

RE:DC's.
damage wise I think their spot on. The issue is the radius at which they apply damage.

The damage they do is a random number chosen between their min and max damage. This number from 0 meters, to their min damage radius (default is 4.5 meters) is applied 100%. From their min damage outward to their max damage radius (default 40 meters), its applied by diminishing returns. The closer you are to the explosion, the more damage it does. DC's explode at a random interval chosen between the depth the AI intended to set them and their depth percision. Default depth percision is 5 meters. So in stock, a DC will always explode plus or minus 5 meters of its intended depth. In Tmaru i changed it all to this:

- changed max damage radius from 40 to 15
- changed depth percision from 5 to 18
- changed explosion range from 40 to 50

Explosion range is the shockwave, does no damage, but rocks the boat.

[tater]

what damage values did you use?

[Ducimus]

Stock. I think their fine. Realisticlly, one direct hit and you *should* be sleeping with the fishies.

[tater]

Stock game, you can indeed be sunk by 25mm, same mission, 1 armed fishing boat, 1x small gunboat (all AAA variant), 1xmedium gunboat (all AAA). so messing with trhe damage in this over the top test scenario might not have given good results since I domino even in stock. My original tests vs 25mm (stock) was with just armed fishing boats, and single 25mm never did enough to damage me. get enough triple 25mm into the act, and I guess the hitpoints get creamed.

None the less, the crew don;t get damaged til the hitpoint start to go away, then they die fast.

[Fearless]

Tested it out by firing at a life raft :lol: to see what impact the flak gun had. Didn't see anything happening but when I checked the kill board, it showed one sunk life raft.:hmm:

[tater]

Here is part of Sargo's upc:
[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 7]
CompartmentType= 2
StatusActive= No
ID= SargoGunS
NameDisplayable= Aft Gun Deck
Type=NULL
FunctionalType= ArtilleryRoom
MechanicalCoef= 0.5
ElectricsCoef= 0.5
GunsCoef= 0.2 ;0..1
WatchmanCoef= 0.5
WatchStandingCoef= 0.048
MaintenanceCoef= 0.0144
RepairsCoef= 0.072
ReloadingweaponCoef= 0.072
SleepCoef= -0.12
LeadersSlots=0
CrewMembersSlots= 0
EffciencyDenominator=2
EffciencyDenominatorBS=2
Hitpoints=200
CrewExposure=0.7
EquipmentsExposure=0.1
WeaponsExposure=0.1
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= 198
DamageDescription1= NULL, 0, 0.2, 0, 1, 1, Minor damage, 0, 0, NULL, 0, 0.2, 0.2
DamageDescription2= NULL, 0.2, 0.6, 0, 1, 1, Medium damage, 0, 0, NULL, 0, 0.2, 0.5
DamageDescription3= NULL, 0.6, 1, 0, 1, 1, Heavy damage, 0, 0, NULL, 0, 0.2, 1

The hitpoints seem like a possible way to kill the gun, but I have a feeling it will cause the ship to flood. Crew exposure... I upped it to 9, and didn't see all that much change.

What about weapon or equipment exposure? Any ideas what those do?

Since getting the crew bithely standing on deck to die seems so very difficult, perhaps I can make the "payment" for risky behavior be to trash the guns.

tater

[FAdmiral]

I just had a merchant blast away at me with small arms fire. Most of what I
heard was the ping of the shells hitting the hull. But then I got a message
saying "We're taking damage sir". That was strange. But when I went to
investigate, I see that the AA gun has 1/100 (taken 1 point of damage)
First time I ever saw any damage by small arms fire....

JIM

[Der Teddy Bar]

I hope this assists you some.

How Zones and 3D objects interact

The scenario…
We have 2 zones that are 20m long x 10m high x 3m deep which are directly behind each other and each zone can only be directly ‘hit’ from one side.

The armour value on Zone 1 is set to 50 so that no 4” shell, even at maximum HP will cause any damage.

The armour value on Zone 2 is set to 15 so that any hit from 4” shell, even a minimum HP will cause damage.

The blast radius for the 4” shell is set to Min 2m, Max 10m, the actual shell hit/s are HP 25 & Blast Radius of 10 metres.

The hits…
When the shell hits Zone 1 – The shell hits to Zone 1 result in no damage to Zone 1 or Zone 2 as the armour value had not been defeated.

When the shell hits Zone 2 – The shell hits to Zone 2 result in damage to Zone 2 as the armour has been defeated; BUT the armour only gets checked once and because Zone 2 is within the damage radius Zone 2 has now been damaged!

The same scenario occurs between the 3D object and the zone.

With the submarine’s armour value at 25, if a shell, in this case a 4” with an AP of 25 were to hit near by then in most instances this will result in damage being taken by the submarine and the nearby zone if the zone is less than 4 metres from the blast point.

RE: in most instances this will result in damage being taken; The reason I say this is because the AP value is dynamic but based upon the specified AP value.

The in game AP value is AP x PT + HPValue/ALF; The PT value is randomly generated and can be a + or – and from 0 up to the Zones.cfg specified value.

PT = Penetration Threshold=0.2 ; ALF = Armor Level Factor=4

The results of this mean that for the 4” AP shell with the AP value of 25 and a HP range of 10 to 25, then using the maximum PT values the armour that will be penetrated for each HP

HP ~ -2PT ~0PT ~+2PT
25 ~ 26.25 ~ 31.25 ~ 36.25
24 ~ 26.00 ~ 31.00 ~ 36.00
23 ~ 25.75 ~ 30.75 ~ 35.75
22 ~ 25.50 ~ 30.50 ~ 35.50
21 ~ 25.25 ~ 30.25 ~ 35.25
20 ~ 25.00 ~ 30.00 ~ 35.00
19 ~ 24.75 ~ 29.75 ~ 34.75
18 ~ 24.50 ~ 29.50 ~ 34.50
17 ~ 24.25 ~ 29.25 ~ 34.25
16 ~ 24.00 ~ 29.00 ~ 34.00
15 ~ 23.75 ~ 28.75 ~ 33.75
14 ~ 23.50 ~ 28.50 ~ 33.50
13 ~ 23.25 ~ 28.25 ~ 33.25
12 ~ 23.00 ~ 28.00 ~ 33.00
11 ~ 22.75 ~ 27.75 ~ 32.75
10 ~ 22.50 ~ 27.50 ~ 32.50

If we have the situation of a 3D object (armour value of 25) which has 2 Zones (armour level of 15) where Zone 1 is larger than the 3D object and Zone 2 is smaller than the 3D object then this is how, assuming that the blast radius is not large enough to reach the ‘other’ zone, that the damage would or would not occur.

If the 4” shell with the HP value of 10 and a PT of -2 hit Zone 1, then the zone and the 3D object would take damage. However if the 4” shell with the HP value of 10 and a PT of -2 hit the 3D object where Zone 2 is located then neither the 3D object or Zone 2 would be damaged.

If the 3D object was the conning tower and Zone 2 was the Zone/s TowerWatch and/or Flak then the crew would not be affected.

[Fearless]

Some valuable info there Der Teddy Bar:up: