GWX Map Update Cheat?

[XLjedi]

What was the reasoning behind allowing map updates to be turned ON in GWX and not taking the hit on the realism percentage? :hmm:

I would suggest changing that back on a future release so that when people say they're playing at 100% I'll know they're playing at 100%.

[danlisa]

IIRC having 'No Map Updates' turned on was such a huge increase in realism (manual plotting, target plotting etc), it was probably deemed to be to much to expect people to adopt just to play at 100% and recieve the added bonus & gameplay changes that comes with 100%.

Personally, I think it's fine as is. I also doubt it will be changed.;)

I also, don't consider it a cheat!

[joegrundman]

I hear your pain, brother, but this is clearly an old minefield where the warning signs have long since fallen down.

I'll save Kpt Lehmann the trouble of repeating to you what he said to me when i raised the subject a few weeks ago

Kpt Lehmann "Once again, because map contacts are such a controversial issue, we have removed any "realism" penalty associated with one decision or another.

Valid arguments:

1) The captain would be updated on a regular basis and/or on request by his crew as to the location and bearing of contacts... or the U-boat itself.

2) In GW/GWX, all contacts are grey in color requiring the user to identify the contact before decision is made to fire or not fire. Optics have also had their outermost zoom increased to help alleviate the loss of visual resolution of in-game graphics vs real life visual acuity.

3) The captain, although he should be able to do any job on the sub... cannot do them all simultaneously.;)"

read a bit more at

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=117781

Personally, i think the "map updates on = more realistic" crew are kidding themselves and suspect they may have honed their formidable argumentation skills in the ID debate, but there you go. :arrgh!:

[danlisa]

:roll: Well, of course, that's exactly what I should have said.:rotfl:

[XLjedi]

I'm sure it's been beaten to death then...

I've never viewed Silent Hunter as a simulation of only the captain's perspective. Cap'n didn't fire the deck gun, or man the AA either...

I think true 100% should only apply to those that are willing to also take up the roll of nav/track officer. We pat ourselves on the back for learning manual targetting but when it comes to determining true course we're content to allow ourselves some room to be lazy I guess.

So how do we refer to real 100% players then? Is it generally understood that when someone says they play at 100% realism setting that they also have the map updates off?

...if they had modelled some variability into the hydro contact line I wouldn't call it a cheat. However, as long as the contact line continues to terminate at the exact location of the contact, I'd definitely call it a cheat. That information is just too perfect. If the contact line could be modded to terminate at a fixed distance or a max range for hydro listening, I think that would be acceptable. :hmm:

[TheDarkWraith]

I'm sure it's been beaten to death then...

I've never viewed Silent Hunter as a simulation of only the captain's perspective. Cap'n didn't fire the deck gun, or man the AA either...

I think true 100% should only apply to those that are willing to also take up the roll of nav/track officer. We pat ourselves on the back for learning manual targetting but when it comes to determining true course we're content to allow ourselves some room to be lazy I guess.

So how do we refer to real 100% players then? Is it generally understood that when someone says they play at 100% realism setting that they also have the map updates off?

...if they had modelled some variability into the hydro contact line I wouldn't call it a cheat. However, as long as the contact line continues to terminate at the exact location of the contact, I'd definitely call it a cheat. That information is just too perfect. If the contact line could be modded to terminate at a fixed distance or a max range for hydro listening, I think that would be acceptable. :hmm:

I have a fix for that.........

[XLjedi]

...if they had modelled some variability into the hydro contact line I wouldn't call it a cheat. However, as long as the contact line continues to terminate at the exact location of the contact, I'd definitely call it a cheat. That information is just too perfect. If the contact line could be modded to terminate at a fixed distance or a max range for hydro listening, I think that would be acceptable. :hmm:

I have a fix for that.........


Really! I'd love to see a mod for that incorporated into GWX.

What's your fix?

[TheDarkWraith]

...if they had modelled some variability into the hydro contact line I wouldn't call it a cheat. However, as long as the contact line continues to terminate at the exact location of the contact, I'd definitely call it a cheat. That information is just too perfect. If the contact line could be modded to terminate at a fixed distance or a max range for hydro listening, I think that would be acceptable. :hmm:

I have a fix for that.........


Really! I'd love to see a mod for that incorporated into GWX.

What's your fix?

I'm using the .tga from NYGM that is dashed instead of solid for these contact lines. They have spaced out the dashes considerably to incorporate error into the contact lines so they are not so precise.

[XLjedi]

What's the best way to get that tga?

[jmr]

I think he may be referring to the assisted plotting mod (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106237) which I find to be a happy medium between map updates and no map updates.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

We have an alternative solution in the works concerning the refinement of contact-handling in GWX. Some contact-related situational awareness is appropriate... too much is not appropriate. Who decides?

Regarding "realism" yes, I think many people are kidding themselves... but I also think that some are poseurs. These are the guys that really stick in my craw.

250,000 ton single patrols by individuals claiming "100%" impress me not.

Editing the realism values in their respective location is an easy thing to do. (Heck, I could make nuclear torpedoes if I wanted... and remain at "100% realism.") LOL, some give their deck guns 20,000 rounds with a reload time of ZERO... and claim to be playing on "hard" settings... well that defeats the purpose.

I think that poseurs also take adantage of known exploits etc. to further their careers... all the while SWEARING and PROCLAIMING that they are gaming at "100% REALISM!"

Some, make no bones about it... that they like to uber their stuff... and no worries... They are not hiding anything... Mush Martin is not a "poseur." Diferrent people enjoy different things... and my attitude is, "Well that's cool. Who are we to dictate to anyone how they play their game."

HOWEVER, I also think that taking an elitist view on what exactly constitutes "hardcore" play and belittling others for more releaxed play is wrong... and it occurs here all the time. Encouragement to push players out of their comfort zone would work much better I think. GWX... by design encourages this... and will continue to do so.

Regarding how we present any given element in GWX... no matter what we do people will bitch about it. The research is there in BUCKETLOADS concerning many matters... especially campaign elements... and this is obvious when you read the manual.

A further variable that I think players rarely think about... As cool as SH3 is... in modding circles, fixing one thing often causes you to break another... and so you begin your rappel with a shoestring when you need a rope. Who decides which modification is adopted? Long repair times are a prime example of this phenomenon.

One thing about GWX... is that it is pretty easy for a player to enjoy at EITHER end of the "realism" spectrum. The "realism percentage" is an easily debateable AND modifiable item... it is IMHO a pointless measurement. GWX is easily "hardcore" or "arcadish" dependant on YOUR CHOICES.

We have heard it all...

"GWX is too hard!"
"GWX is just eyecandy!"
"My porridge is cold!"
"My hamster is running backwards!"

At the end of the day, it is individual convictions that will determine gameplay styles and options.

I am a "hardcore" kaleun at heart... but I get quite angry when I see that sort of attitude imposed on others in such a way that "the other guys can't join our little club because they aren't as tough/good as we are."

PLEH!

Today's swabbies... are tomorrow's admirals. They'll get tired of all the gratuitous tonnage and pretty explosions... and either get bored and leave... or get better/tougher. Forgetting that will kill the longevity of the thing we all love.

Alienating them is a mistake.

Now if we could just hunt down all the "poseurs"...

[XLjedi]

OK, whatever...

I just wanted to know why you chose to mod it like that? Creates confusion and a class of folks (that apparently annoy you) who are poseurs. I just wanna easily understand what people mean when they say they play at xx%.

If it's so controversial (although I don't really understand why) it should just be left alone...

[XLjedi]

We have an alternative solution in the works concerning the refinement of contact-handling in GWX.

Some good news there... thank you.

Your efforts are appreciated. :up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

OK, whatever...

I just wanted to know why you chose to mod it like that? Creates confusion and a class of folks (that apparently annoy you) who are poseurs. I just wanna easily understand what people mean when they say they play at xx%.

If it's so controversial (although I don't really understand why) it shoulda just be left alone...

Well then, my whole SERIES of points are lost on you. You have chosen to ignore the better part of my post and the explaination as being "invalid."

[XLjedi]

Well then, my whole SERIES of points are lost on you. You have chosen to ignore the better part of my post and the explaination as being "invalid."

Your arguing a bunch of points with someone who doesn't really care to debate them with you.

Actually I didn't really care for your scolding tone or implication that I have some elitest viewpoint, or that I'm belittling anyone. I have no interest in projecting a poor attitude within the community...

I thought it was a reasonable question to ask in a thread. But I see it's a topic thats been beaten in the past and apparently there's some sting involved that I wasn't really aware of.

Not sure what you're reading into my posts. I s'pose message tone can be manipulated in the mind of the reader.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well then, my whole SERIES of points are lost on you. You have chosen to ignore the better part of my post and the explaination as being "invalid."

Your arguing a bunch of points with someone who doesn't really care to debate them with you.

Actually I didn't really care for your scolding tone or implication that I have some elitest viewpoint, or that I'm belittling anyone. I have no interest in projecting a poor attitude within the community...

I thought it was a reasonable question to ask in a thread. But I see it's a topic thats been beaten in the past and apparently there's some sting involved that I wasn't really aware of.

Not sure what you're reading into my posts. I s'pose message tone can be manipulated in the mind of the reader.

Well, the limitations of the internet and text certainly can alter the intended tone or even meaning of a post...

... for instance: your assumption that I was addressing you specifically?

One could read into it that a "guilty conscious" is involved... or even that this sentence is another "accusation."

I'm about to barbeque some chicken... want some?

[XLjedi]

Well I just noticed you double-posted it across two threads I had commented on...

But fair nuff, peace brother... and enjoy your dinner.

Love to hear more bout what you're planning for the contact lines for the next GWX release. :hmm:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well I just noticed you double-posted it across two threads I had commented on...

But fair nuff, peace brother... and enjoy your dinner.

Love to hear more bout what you're planning for the contact lines for the next GWX release. :hmm:

Agreed, :D regarding the new contact lines/markers etc... it won't be perfect... but will at least be in keeping with the "Not all... but some" situational awareness concept.

Geez... absolutely everyone will be hollering at us... err at me anyway... once it is implemented. <don's rain-gear in anticipation of incoming tomatoes>

Will post about it soonish... to include the rationale behind it.

[XLjedi]

Geez... absolutely everyone will be hollering at us... err at me anyway... once it is implemented. <don's rain-gear in anticipation of incoming tomatoes>

Will post about it soonish... to include the rationale behind it.

Well I'll be happy to post on that thread in your defense. :yep:

I think the folks who might complain might be the ones who are perhaps a tad frustrated trying to use the nav tools and external devices to determine true course. I'm sure there's plenty of folks out there like JMR and Lurker who would be happy to teach em some whiz wheel and TMA tricks. :ping: