MG42s?

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

I found two MG42s in the conning tower but you can't use them why?

[GoldenRivet]

they would have likely been used to defend the boat from being boarded if that ever came to pass.

its a cool bit of detail to have them in the conning tower and it really lends to the immersion in the same way that the becks beer under the bunk or the family photos in work spaces do, but thats all they are there to do really is lend to detail.

[The Milkman]

cuz its for show? they would only mount them on the bridge for precautions when approaching ships. and they were a moral boost according to u-boat.net

[Morts]

I found two MG42s in the conning tower but you can't use them why?
i belive they are MG34's;)

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Well which ever type of MGs they are I wish we could actully use them in the game.

[filefool]

Well which ever type of MGs they are I wish we could actully use them in the game.

Only if you can lower them enough to shoot at those pesky dolphins...:arrgh!:

[Kumando]

I found two MG42s in the conning tower but you can't use them why?
i belive they are MG34's;)

You are right they are Mg34 lighter and portable versions of the MG42, it was just used by german infantry as an Heavy machine gun in subs they used Mg34.

[emtmedic005]

Any Light Machinegun found on a German Sub would be the MG34, Belt-Fed, air cooled. On the conning tower there would have been notches to mount the MG34 so that it could serve as a defensive weapon or to take out survivors. I have also seen pictures of longer pole mounts that allowed the MG34 to be served as a AA gun against small planes

[Happy Times]

Any Light Machinegun found on a German Sub would be the MG34, Belt-Fed, air cooled. On the conning tower there would have been notches to mount the MG34 so that it could serve as a defensive weapon or to take out survivors. I have also seen pictures of longer pole mounts that allowed the MG34 to be served as a AA gun against small planes

:huh: ?

[Jimbuna]

Any Light Machinegun found on a German Sub would be the MG34, Belt-Fed, air cooled. On the conning tower there would have been notches to mount the MG34 so that it could serve as a defensive weapon or to take out survivors. I have also seen pictures of longer pole mounts that allowed the MG34 to be served as a AA gun against small planes

AA and as a detterant to deck crews on merchants to man their guns I can understand :yep:
To "take out survivors" I most certainly don't :nope:

[Morts]

or to take out survivors.

why would you wanna do that ?:down:

[Kumando]

or to take out survivors.

why would you wanna do that ?:down:

There is one recorded testimony of a U-Boat commander that gave orders to shoot survivors i dont know his name but he was hanged for that in the end of the war because one survivor managed to escape to tell the story, i believe this wasnt the only U-boat commander that did this but for the record only one case is registered.

[Morts]

or to take out survivors.

why would you wanna do that ?:down:

There is one recorded testimony of a U-Boat commander that gave orders to shoot survivors i dont know his name but he was hanged for that in the end of the war because one survivor managed to escape to tell the story, i believe this wasnt the only U-boat commander that did this but for the record only one case is registered.
you mean Kptlt. Heinz-Wilhelm Eck ? (U-852)

[Jimbuna]

There is one recorded testimony of a U-Boat commander that gave orders to shoot survivors i dont know his name but he was hanged for that in the end of the war because one survivor managed to escape to tell the story, i believe this wasnt the only U-boat commander that did this but for the record only one case is registered.

Thank god these testimonies were few and far between :yep:

[emtmedic005]

Im going to get yelled at for this one but, you never saw U-571, the movie, they gun down a whole life boat full of women and children and a few guys.
plus i've read accounts where the sub would surface after sinking a warship and gunning down the crew, afterall they were trying to sink the sub.

[bigboywooly]

Im going to get yelled at for this one but, you never saw U-571, the movie, they gun down a whole life boat full of women and children and a few guys.
plus i've read accounts where the sub would surface after sinking a warship and gunning down the crew, afterall they were trying to sink the sub.

Well U 571 is total BS and based on half a dozen different subs and actions so I wouldnt believe a thing in that film
Although I probably havent read as many uboat books as some on here I dont think I have read one account of shooting survivers
Plenty of giving them water and supplies and then radioing in the position
:hmm:

[Growler]

Im going to get yelled at for this one but, you never saw U-571, the movie, they gun down a whole life boat full of women and children and a few guys.
plus i've read accounts where the sub would surface after sinking a warship and gunning down the crew, afterall they were trying to sink the sub.

One Hollywood interpretation of several stories does not a factual account create.

Remember, Hollywierd exists to sell movies, and the best way to do that is to either, A: Increase the sex appeal, or B: Increase the shock value. Since none of us wants to think about sex on a sub, that leaves only the shock value option available.

[Pants]

Dönitz issued orders NOT to pick up survivors after the Laconia incident on September 12 1942.

The Laconia incident was an incident during WWII in September 1942 when RMS Laconia, carrying some 80 Civillians and 268 UK Soldiers, and about 1,800 Italian POW's with 160 Polish soldiers on guard, was struck by a torpedo from a U-Boat off the coast of West Africa and sank. The U-boat commander, Kapitänleutnant Werner Hartenstien, realized the error and commenced Rescue operations, joined by other U-boats. Heading to rendezvous with Vichy French ships under Red Cross banners, the U-boats were attacked by a US B-24. The event profoundly affected the operations of the German fleet, which abandoned the practice of attempting rescue of civilian survivors under the Laconia order of Karl Donitz.

U-156 remained on the surface at the scene for the next two and a half days. At 11:30am on September 15, she was joined by U-506 commanded by Kptlt. Erich Würdemann and a few hours later by both U-507 under Korvettenkapitän Harro Schacht and the Italian Sub Cappenilli. The four submarines with lifeboats in tow and hundreds of survivors standing on the hulls headed towards the African coastline and a rendezvous with Vichy French surface warships which had set out from Sengal and Dahomy
The next morning, September 16, at 11:25am, the four submarines, with Red Cross flags draped across their gun decks, were spotted by an American B-24 bomber from Ascension Island. Hartenstein signalled to the pilot requesting assistance. Lieutenant James D. Harden of the US airforce turned away and notified his base of the situation. The senior officer on duty that day, Captain Robert C. Richardson III, replied with the order "Sink sub." Harden flew back to the scene of the rescue effort and at 12:32pm attacked with bombs and depth charges. One landed among the lifeboats in tow behind U-156 while others straddled the submarine itself. Hartenstein cast adrift those lifeboats still afloat and ordered the survivors on his deck into the water. The submarines dived and escaped. Many hundreds of the Laconia survivors perished, but French vessels managed to re-rescue about a thousand later that day. In all, some 1,500 passengers survived. An English seaman, Tony Large, endured forty days adrift in an open life boat before he was finally picked up.


The Laconia incident had far-reaching consequences. Until then, as indicated in point #1 of the "Laconia order" (below), it was common for U-boats to assist torpedoed survivors with food, water and directions to the nearest land. Now that it was apparent that the Americans would attack rescue missions under the Red Cross flag, Dönitz ordered that rescues were prohibited; survivors were to be left in the sea.


Laconia-Befehl (Laconia Order)

Jegliche Rettungsversuche von Angehörigen versenkter Schiffe, also auch das Auffischen Schwimmender und Anbordgabe auf Rettungsboote, Aufrichten gekenterter Rettungsboote, Abgabe von Nahrungsmitteln und Wasser haben zu unterbleiben. Rettung widerspricht den primitivsten Forderungen der Kriegsführung nach Vernichtung feindlicher Schiffe und deren Besatzungen.
Die Befehle über das Mitbringen von Kapitänen und Chefingenieuren bleiben bestehen.
Schiffbrüchige nur dann retten, wenn ihre Aussagen für das Boot von Wichtigkeit sind.
Bleibt hart. Denkt daran, daß der Gegner bei seinen Bombenangriffen auf deutsche Städte keine Rücksicht auf Frauen und Kinder nimmt.
All efforts to save survivors of sunken ships, such as the fishing out of swimming men and putting them on board lifeboats, the righting of overturned lifeboats, or the handing over of food and water, must stop. Rescue contradicts the most basic demands of the war: the destruction of hostile ships and their crews.
The orders concerning the bringing-in of skippers and chief engineers stay in effect.
Survivors are to be saved only if their statements are important for the boat.
Stay firm. Remember that the enemy has no regard for women and children when bombing German cities!And don't get me started on U-571 :damn:

[Happy Times]

And then the Americans used that order against him in the Nurnberg trial.:roll:

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

never beleve the hollywood crap they serve you :nope:

the only thing america has done in THEY'R movies is :

making the enemy aka "the baddie's" as bad as possible (mostly with nonsense)
and bringing themselves aka "the goodie's" on the screen as heroe's...

my god i hate that sh*t :damn:


Mohr

[Jimbuna]

Im going to get yelled at for this one but, you never saw U-571, the movie, they gun down a whole life boat full of women and children and a few guys.
plus i've read accounts where the sub would surface after sinking a warship and gunning down the crew, afterall they were trying to sink the sub.

What accounts ? :hmm:
A link or further details would be helpful. :yep:

[Lzs von swe]

As far as I have found, this is the only known case were an U-boat commander surfaced and gunned down survivors, to protect his boat.

http://www.uboat.net/boats/u852.htm

http://www.uboataces.com/articles-war-criminal.shtml

[emtmedic005]

The book is called Servants of Evil by Bob Carruthers, its basically a book about former german sailors, airmen and soldiers talking about the war. In the first chapter on the U-Boat one of the sailors was saying how glamourous and noble things were in the uboat service, how they would help survivors by giving them water, food and directions to land. But then the same sailor mentions how that all changed after 1942, when the only thing given to survivors were bullets and death.

[joea]

The book is called Servants of Evil by Bob Carruthers, its basically a book about former german sailors, airmen and soldiers talking about the war. In the first chapter on the U-Boat one of the sailors was saying how glamourous and noble things were in the uboat service, how they would help survivors by giving them water, food and directions to land. But then the same sailor mentions how that all changed after 1942, when the only thing given to survivors were bullets and death.

Well you should have mentioned the book in the first place not the movie. Will look for it.

[emtmedic005]

I bought the book in the UK, well Wales, in a town that has more bookstores then people, it cost me 10 pounds, the ISBN is 0 2399 969 8

[Heibges]

According the the Uboat Commanders Handbook the uboat would open up with the deckgun and mg's at the same time: at a range of about 600m to 1000m. I don't know if tracers have gotten better, but "tracer burnout" today is about 1000m

[magicsub]

well sometimes americans always tell bad stuff!!!

the only good american movie i know is robocop!!!

and yes there is only one acount of machinegunning survivors!!

and the americans killed survivors all the time!!!


oh yeah, i forgot

there was a kamakaze who survived when his plane crashed and the ameriicans where about to shoot him when he blew himself up with a grenade, just then a shot from a pistol got his head right in the middle of the explosion!

[Archive1]

Hey all, the real war ended several decades ago. Some of us survived, others did not, some did heroic things, others did not. Let's not refight it all over again based on various accounts that we cannot verify. We need to respect the conditions that all sides had to contend with and which we, thankfully, may never have to experience except vicariously or virtually. These kind of simulations let us at least faintly touch on the problems each combatant faced, but quite far removed from the burden of reality. The object here is to advance the quality of the simulation not make political points.

[filefool]

the only good american movie i know is robocop!!!

That's a bold statement, i hope you haven't seen too much american films yet. :D

BTW, Robocop was directed by a dutchman.

[Catfish]

Hello,
there are some american films that are even better than "Robocp" :rotfl:
if not U-571 :88). The british soldiers that really performed the capturing of the enigma and a whole U-boat later, must be angry in their graves about the concocted history of this U-571 thing.

From the official papers there indeed was one event, when a german U-boat shot at survivors of a greek tanker (was it the greek "Pelaeus", and the red sea?), and the Commander was Eck, who was shot after the war for this. What was even more ghastly was that the boat's doctor also shot at survivors. It later became clear that the quite young Eck, having heard horrifying stories of other U-boat commanders in late 1944 and 45, before his first patrol in 1945, and having heard about the enemy's new detection systems, must have been desperately afraid of his boat's position being revealed by survivors. I remember to have read he beached his boat somewhere on the red sea coast, and fled, but was later captured with his crew.
Anyway this was an atrocity that led to his trial.

There is a Hollywood film with Humphrey Bogart from 1942 (?), where an arrogant german U-boat commander with a white silk scarf (!) lets his crew gun down survivors of trade ship crews after a convoy attack, and it seems this was generally assumed by the allies to be done on regular terms. Maybe to steer the US public view into a direction to more easily accept joining the war, for the one reason for propaganda is to dehumanize the enemy, and it is still working that way today.

Fact is U-boat crews, or better their commanders were never ordered by Doenitz or anyone, to shoot at survivors. Indeed they often tried to help survivors even after the aforementioned Doenitz order - people are people after all. There is no evidence or paper that states such a behaviour. Which does not mean it may not have happened ...

It also is a fact, that US submarines did shoot at survivors. Indeed Doenitz was released from the prosecution of ordering to shoot at survivors, not because he could have given the order during war (which he had not), but because CinCPac made clear it had been common procedure in the US fleet. It was war, after all.

The stories of the japanese and the hand grenades - well i have heard this story so often, once it was a marine, then there were survivors still shooting from rafts at US submarines, then there was a hospital with wounded japanese left, and when the US entered the hospital, every wounded japanese had a hand grenade under his blanket etc. etc.. This smells badly of propaganda again, however it may certainly be possible. Problem is you do not get evidence from Hollywood films, or the internet.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Catfish]

sorry, double post

[Jimbuna]

I bought the book in the UK, well Wales, in a town that has more bookstores then people, it cost me 10 pounds, the ISBN is 0 2399 969 8

Where precisely....I often go to towns that have plentiful book shops on my travels :hmm:

[Sailor Steve]

well sometimes americans always tell bad stuff!!!

the only good american movie i know is robocop!!!

and yes there is only one acount of machinegunning survivors!!

and the americans killed survivors all the time!!!


oh yeah, i forgot

there was a kamakaze who survived when his plane crashed and the ameriicans where about to shoot him when he blew himself up with a grenade, just then a shot from a pistol got his head right in the middle of the explosion!
You're doing it again. If you are going to make claims like "the americans killed survivors all the time!!!", please show the sources, including one for the kamikaze pilot. I know of only one incident in which an American captain had survivors machine-gunned in the water, and he claimed that they fired at his crew first.

[Dowly]

And then the Americans used that order against him in the Nurnberg trial.:roll:

Exactly! I believe he got 10 years for that. Even after Admiral Nimitz spoke on Doenitz' defence that the US subs in the Pacific had virtually the same orders. :roll:

As for gunning down the survivors, like said numerous times already, only one incident is documented. In the article on Uboat.net about the Germans killing survivors, it is pointed out that when Uboat was using it's deckgun to finish off a merchant, sometimes MGs were used too. Now, that would propably give the already evacuated crew of the ship the impression that they are being shot at.

So let's not go into this "Germans were babykillers!"-stuff, after all, there's quite a few records of allied planes shooting parachutes in the WWII airwar. And yes, there's records of Germans doing it too, neither side came out "clean".

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

Slightly offtopic, but anyway.... It's really strange...how would they finish off a merchant with machine guns?

[Catfish]

Hello,
for a torpedoed ship that would not sink, or stopped ships that were shot at with the deck gun, the U-boat crew needed time. But if there was enough time or no escorts around the boats usually waited for the crew to leave the ship.

When there was underwater damage, the ship woukd often swim on a "bubble" that could not escape through the deck, so the Flak (AA) or machine guns were used to shoot holes in the loading hatches, which quickly sank the ship.

In the first time of the war international law demanded an undefended enemy merchant steamer to be hailed, stopped, searched, and only then sunk, if it really belonged to the enemy, or obviously carried contraband to support the enemy.
Until the unrestricted U-boat warfare was declared, it indeed was done that way, so the deck gun along with the Flak and machine gun were frequently used to spare torpedoes.

The general behaviour changed when trade ships were being armed to defend themselves, or ran in convoys guarded by escort ships - which indeed was a violation against international law.

A U-boat could not be expected to surface in front of a guarded convoy, or an armed merchant, and expect international law to be applied (=survive), thus the reason of the german declaration of unrestricted warfare - shooting torpedoes without warning at ships that showed the enemies merchant flag.
Enemy battleships could be attacked without warning right from the beginning, again following international law.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Water boy]

There was a link posted not long ago about this 'shooting survivors' bit.
I read it and this or similar was quoted several times for both sides, they did it, we did it.........
Quite suprised at the number of allied entries to be honest, dont have the link or where to find it.:(

[Rango]

Hi all

Look at the following side "murder rate" and look at your country in the statistic and take the data from today. You can easy the absolute figures calculate with your inhabitants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate

In wartime have scum of the next year uniforms and then you have your war crime. And that is guilty for all country´s of the world and anytime.

After a war is the winning goverment not interested to show his own war crimes. That is not new, that is in all historical war´s the same.

The different between germany and the western allied are that the scum was in the goverment and army from germany in the World War II. The western allied had the scum only in the army.



and the americans killed survivors all the time!!!


Sorry, but your sentence is nonsense.

[msalama]

...neither side came out "clean".

And no wonder, given that WWII is actually the worst tragedy mankind has experienced so far. One is however tempted to point out that Hitler and his cronies still remain as the instigators (and thus, the ultimate culprits) for this tragedy - but to extend this notion into "all Germans were babykillers", as you put it, is still sheer idiocy.

WWII was a total war, and as such, unfortunately triggered a slew of barbaric incidents all around, even if we disregard the genocidal side of the Nazi regime and concentrate on pure military operations only. But shouldn't this fact, shameful as it undoubtedly is, still serve as a good reminder for us NOT to let that tragedy happen ever again - and, in that sense, actually serve as the proverbial silver lining in all the horridness that was WWII?

Signed

The Pacifist Kaleun ;)

[Happy Times]

Hi all

Look at the following side "murder rate" and look at your country in the statistic and take the data from today. You can easy the absolute figures calculate with your inhabitants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate

In wartime have scum of the next year uniforms and then you have your war crime. And that is guilty for all country´s of the world and anytime.

After a war is the winning goverment not interested to show his own war crimes. That is not new, that is in all historical war´s the same.

The different between germany and the western allied are that the scum was in the goverment and army from germany in the World War II. The western allied had the scum only in the army.



and the americans killed survivors all the time!!!


Sorry, but your sentence is nonsense.

I woudnt call the majority of either sides armies as scum.
Politicians are mostly scum, the size and colour varies.

[Rango]

I woudnt call the majority of either sides armies as scum.


My english is not so good, but i hope you can see that i say that the scum are
minorities of each country.

Greeting Rango

[McHibbins]

I´m just wondering why nobody here tells stories about U-boat Cmdrs which gave Cigarettes, food, Compass, maps, etc etc to the survivors.

This is also historically proven. Take a look at Clay Blairs excellent books.

[Jimbuna]

I´m just wondering why nobody here tells stories about U-boat Cmdrs which gave Cigarettes, food, Compass, maps, etc etc to the survivors.

This is also historically proven. Take a look at Clay Blairs excellent books.

Rgr that matey, I often quote extracts from his 2 volumes http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

Can you recall which U-boat he referred to (a Type IX) that sailed with 355 deck gun shells http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1817/thinkbigsw1yo4.gif

[McHibbins]

Was it a Monsun or one of the caribians ? Can´t remember right now. Lüth, Bleichrodt or Piening often were on long Journeys. Werner von Hartenstein had orders to shell the Docks btw Oilbunkers at Curacao...maybe he was the one. But I can´t remember the U-Numbers right now, sry.:oops:

One of them was comanding the big 2x10,5cm "U-Kreuzer". Maybe this was the boat....

Harrrr !!! Where are the books ??

[Jimbuna]

Was it a Monsun or one of the caribians ? Can´t remember right now. Lüth, Bleichrodt or Piening often were on long Journeys. Werner von Hartenstein had orders to shell the Docks btw Oilbunkers at Curacao...maybe he was the one. But I can´t remember the U-Numbers right now, sry.:oops:

One of them was comanding the big 2x10,5cm "U-Kreuzer". Maybe this was the boat....

Harrrr !!! Where are the books ??

The reference was made within the first 200 pages of one of the volumes (I think the first)......I'm really sorry but that is as much as I remember :damn:

[McHibbins]

Gotcha !!!

Book II Chapter : "The Attack of Kapstadt and Southafrica" Page 137


"....U181 Lüth....wobei er seinen ganzen Vorrat von 355 Granaten für die 10.5cm Kanone aufbrauchte......"


Ha ! My first Thought was right:rock:

[Jimbuna]

Gotcha !!!

Book II Chapter : "The Attack of Kapstadt and Southafrica" Page 137


"....U181 Lüth....wobei er seinen ganzen Vorrat von 355 Granaten für die 10.5cm Kanone aufbrauchte......"


Ha ! My first Thought was right:rock:

Excellent find Kaleun http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif I knew I had read it in the Blair books.

Mind you....in the English text version, it's in the same volume and chapter but on on page 79 http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Venatore]

I found two MG42s in the conning tower but you can't use them why?

Because..........BDU hasn't seen your qualification papers ;)

They don't want a massive 20 round burst getting let off in heavy seas within the U-boat itself
:lost:

[Rango]

:D :up:

[Faamecanic]

Im going to get yelled at for this one but, you never saw U-571, the movie, they gun down a whole life boat full of women and children and a few guys.
plus i've read accounts where the sub would surface after sinking a warship and gunning down the crew, afterall they were trying to sink the sub.

If you can get a hold of a book called "10 years and 20 days". Its the autobiography from Karl Doenitz. He even said the willful killing of survivors was forbidden. Adm. Doentiz even went as far as to try and rescue survivors from a POW ship off the coast of AFrica that was torpedoed, and ended up getting in a lot of hot water by his higher ups for doing so. His Uboat captains FOUGHT him on his order to abandon the rescue efforts (even though under threat of getting bombed by allied bombers due to the carrying 100's of survivors on the decks of the uboat, therefore unable to submerge) .

The instances of Uboat captains ordering the shooting of survivors was VERY rare and punishable. The sad fact is that there were evil people on all sides from all countries that did things that Most leaders would not have approved of. But for the most part the common sailor, airman, soldier was a patriot in thier own minds, fighting for the honor of thier own country.

[Catfish]

Hello,
umm i thought entmedic005 meant that U-571 movie with the shooting as a joke ?!
I said there was a film from 1943 where the same happens, with Humphrey Bogart in a propaganda film. U571 is the biggest bull**** i have seen in years, and i even saw Robocop in the TV. Good example of how concocted history and propaganda is still active today.
Even if you say US commanders shot at japanese castaways this has to be seen in relation to what happened before.

Entmedic005, please get and read some books that don't parrot this propaganda sh!t.

As i and others already said there was only one incident where a german U-boat commander shot at survivors in 1945 (which certainly is one too many) but if you say it happened "often" or "regularly" please show some real evidence.:shifty:

Grreetings,
Catfish

[XXi]

As for U 571... man oh man, what a bad movie that one was! As for the historical accuracy of the movie I can say only it is true that there WERE U boats in the Atlantic during the war and that would be about it.

There was only one clear case of an U Boat crew shooting deliberately at the survivors and this is the case of Eck and U 852. Apart from that, I`ve read that there are few - literally few - cases where U Boats could have been shooting at survivors. Not too much so to say. No case like that of 'Llandovery Castle' during WWI. And no case like that of 'Mush' Morton and 'Wahoo'