China's new SSBN

[Sea Demon]

http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2007/07/new_chinese_ballistic_missile.php

OK. So what do you think? Looks an awful lot like an early model Delta class to me, yet a little bit smaller. Could the Russians have provided some of their technologies to build this thing? I wonder where it's noise level and sonar technology is at?

[ASWnut101]

Here's the Google Maps link to it (as in the FAS report):

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Dalian,+China&ie=UTF8&ll=38.867346,121.555052&spn=0.014635,0.028925&t=k&z=15&om=1

[bookworm_020]

I wonder if they have improved the radation sheilding in the sub, compaired to earlier subs in which the crew had to be rested due to high radation levels.:hmm:

[Tchocky]

Well, there's only so much you can tell from the exterior :)

[nikimcbee]

....HHHMM juicy target:gulp:

Loading Mk-48 now

[Oberon]

Interesting...

Where she's parked up is where they used to have their Golf class, wonder where they've put that now...

She looks pretty sea-worthy, no doubt she'll be out at sea within the month, unless she turns into another Xia and spends most of her time in dry-dock... :lol:

[PeriscopeDepth]

The new Type 093 SSN is supposed to be roughly equivalent to a Victor III class. I would bet my next paycheck the Chinese are getting help from at least the Russians.

PD

[Kapitan]

That would be a wise investment too, they are getting help from the russians its widely known not only tat type 093 is made with help from the russians to be modeled on victor III to top it off the type 094 is based on the older yankee class and newer delta class they just chopped and changed bits.

[Konovalov]

It has to be better than the Xia class but I guess that wouldn't be too hard to accomplish. ;)

[Jimbuna]

They're still 20+ years behind in technological terms ;)

[Kapitan]

If it contains tech from the akula class (typhoon or delta as well) then your going to have a big issue here as its not 20 years behind but just 3

bear in mind the borey is very modern from what ive been told it doesnt have touch screens but has alot of what the americans use such as water fall displays and no periscope.

[Oberon]

I'd have said she was probably more Delta technology, perhaps III or IV level. The Xia was about Yankee level, wasn't she? When she was at sea that is... So I would have thought the next level the Russians would be willing to part with would be Delta IV level.
Hell, even Victor III technology is a threat, remember that they were the first wave of subs after the Walker information was gained, and they had the extra sonar dampening and quietening technology implemented. Whilst they're not as quiet as the Borei probably is, they're still a lot quieter than say, an Alfa (heck, an earthquake is probably quieter than that...) or a Yankee.
So, although I think 3 years is a bit out....I'd say no more than ten-fifteen. Which is still a problem. Take the Swordfish torpedo bomber for example... old tech can still be a problem to new tech. ;)

[Jimbuna]

Delta III started in 72 which could mean even 30 years tech
Delta IV between 85-92 which means 15-22 years tech

Either way.....a worthy adversary if taken too lightly :yep:

[Oberon]

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/744/huludaocl9.jpg

Here's the next on the conveyor belt, under construction in the highlighted drydock in Huludao.

[Kapitan]

looks more delta III ish to me than anything

[Sea Demon]

looks more delta III ish to me than anything

Yes. But a smaller version of Delta III. I've got to say that I'm surprised and dismayed that Russia would help China build a sea-based nuclear weapons system.

[Jimbuna]

looks more delta III ish to me than anything


Yes. But a smaller version of Delta III. I've got to say that I'm surprised and dismayed that Russia would help China build a sea-based nuclear weapons system.


Russia need the revenue but won't be able to pay the potential consequence in future years :nope:

[Oberon]

looks more delta III ish to me than anything



Yes. But a smaller version of Delta III. I've got to say that I'm surprised and dismayed that Russia would help China build a sea-based nuclear weapons system.


Russia need the revenue but won't be able to pay the potential consequence in future years :nope:

Money makes the world go round, it wouldn't be the first time that a 'good idea' has bitten someone in the arse, IIRC the UK trained and supplied Iraq during the Iraq/Iran war and then had the same training used against them in the Gulf Wars....although admittedly...a bit of training at Sandhurst and a few rifles and that aren't quite the same as a ruddy great big SSBN.... :hmm:

Guarantee though, whatever Russia has leaked to China, it's a fair way behind what they have now. I mean, why the devil would you give someone who might one day be your enemy your own technology. I don't even do that in Civilization III!! :damn:

[PeriscopeDepth]

looks more delta III ish to me than anything



Yes. But a smaller version of Delta III. I've got to say that I'm surprised and dismayed that Russia would help China build a sea-based nuclear weapons system.

Russia need the revenue but won't be able to pay the potential consequence in future years :nope:
\I mean, why the devil would you give someone who might one day be your enemy your own technology. I don't even do that in Civilization III!! :damn:

Because they can write you a check today. Seriously, the Russians are equipping many air forces better than their own.

PD

[JSLTIGER]

looks more delta III ish to me than anything



Yes. But a smaller version of Delta III. I've got to say that I'm surprised and dismayed that Russia would help China build a sea-based nuclear weapons system.

Russia need the revenue but won't be able to pay the potential consequence in future years :nope:
\I mean, why the devil would you give someone who might one day be your enemy your own technology. I don't even do that in Civilization III!! :damn:
Because they can write you a check today. Seriously, the Russians are equipping many air forces better than their own.

PD

You didn't think they could afford new those new Borei boats all on their own did you? Heck, they can't even afford to decommission the ones they've got!

[geetrue]

Russia and China don't really get along as well as some people think.

Remember the vietnam war and how russia supplied the AA defense for north Vietnam?

Well as the story goes Russia shipped their anti-air missile's via railroad cars, right?

The tracks in China were of a differrent gauge, so when the train got to China they off loaded the missile's to another car with a Chinese train. The Chinese would then tear the missile's down for photo blue prints and put the missile back together again.

That's why so many missile's missed during the Vietnam war, but of course too many got through anyway.

I find it hard to believe they would trust China with any advanced inventions for submarine warfare, knowing full well they could use it against you later on in a unfriendly confrontation.

[Jimbuna]

You didn't think they could afford new those new Borei boats all on their own did you? Heck, they can't even afford to decommission the ones they've got!


:up:

[Kapitan]

Acctually they can afford to decomission 3 boats a year on thier own but the west being the west supplys the cash to decomission 4 a year and the UN likes numbers so the west pays and the money that russia should be spending on decommissioning goes into the navy to create another submarine.

since 1999 russia's econamy has quadrupled the funding for a 300 ship navy is now "adequate" i think we should take a good look at americas lack of funds for thier naval fleet thats begining to become worrying.

[PeriscopeDepth]

i think we should take a good look at americas lack of funds for thier naval fleet thats begining to become worrying.
Uh...what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditure

I think we'll be okay Kapitan. ;)

PD

[Steel_Tomb]

The Russians are playing with fire...IIRC they were trying to sell state of the art missile systems to IRAN of all bloody places! Russia just seems to care about money instead of thinking about the political and military impact of their arms dealings. Admitedly the yanks are just as bad when it comes to money but they're hardly going to sell brand new tech to their rivals big enemy at the time are they?! Russia is slipping back into the black hole of a militaristic regime which doesnt give a sh** about the welfare of the population...just how many subs and tanks they can get for their next parade. Not to mention Putins wonderful KG... *cough cough* I mean FSB, people can't even travel to peaceful protests without being arrested and intimidated.

Ok rant over...yeah the new sub looks half decent...but many things do from china until they break a week later! Build quality is pants probably!

[JSLTIGER]

It's numbers like that that make the quote from the movie Casino Royale all the more appropriate:


James Bond: And the winnings?
Felix Leiter: Does it look like we need the money?

[Sea Demon]

Russia is incapable of understanding it's own history apparently. There is a simple historical context here with Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. They're kind of repeating this process with China now by selling them fighter aircraft technology, missile technology, and submarine construction/technology. I think this is definitely going to bite Russia hard down the road. This is not smart of the Russians in any way. Perhaps it's greed. Perhaps it's stupidity. Perhaps it's suicidal inclinations. It doesn't matter really. Whatever the case, if Russia is helping China field sea based strategic nuclear weapons, they're not doing themselves or anybody else any favors. BTW, the American Democrat party under Bill Cinton helped to transfer to the Chinese missile guidance related technologies. So it's not just the Russians. The Democrat party here in America royally screwed us and pretty much the rest of the Western world here as well.

:down:

At any rate, I'm wondering when we'll get an idea of the performance of the sub (acoustically), and the JL-2 missiles they contain. I've got to believe that our subs will be tracking these things if they deploy on any patrol.

[fatty]

Russia is incapable of understanding it's own history apparently. There is a simple historical context here with Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. They're kind of repeating this process with China now by selling them fighter aircraft technology, missile technology, and submarine construction/technology. I think this is definitely going to bite Russia hard down the road. This is not smart of the Russians in any way. Perhaps it's greed. Perhaps it's stupidity. Perhaps it's suicidal inclinations. It doesn't matter really. Whatever the case, if Russia is helping China field sea based strategic nuclear weapons, they're not doing themselves or anybody else any favors.

For the history part, I don't know. The USSR and the PRC once had a pretty cozy relationship, trading tech, intelligence, and even sending personnel on training exchanges. In the end, to make a long story short, Mao said some unfriendly things, attacked the Soviets, and subsequently got his ass handed to him in a series of border battles. I am no expert by any measure but from my understanding of Sino-Russo relations Russian leaders have mostly looked down upon the Chinese and have felt some sort of policing obligation since the Opium Wars of the 19th century through to Operation August Storm. I once read that the only thing better received in Russia than a war with China would be a decrease in vodka prices. I suppose nuclear rivalry and the mutual 'threat' of the United States has forced them to adjust their views and has brought them to hammer out the new and mutually beneficial Treaty of Friendship with the PRC. I speculate that an aggressive brand of U.S. foreign policy has created a bit of a monster by bringing these two countries closer together, and the strength of their relationship will work in relation to future U.S. posturing.

As far as the new SSBN itself, I don't expect it to be a big challenge for U.S. patrols to keep an eye on, but it will still be useful for muscling around the less-powerful nations in the East Asian region. The PRC's nuclear stick grows a little longer and it will certainly concern a great many leaders on that side of the world.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Exactly fatty. One interesting thing that will come of this extension of Chinese nuclear power is Japan's decision to go nuclear. I'm convinced it will happen in the next couple decades. Especially if Taiwan is taken by then.

PD

[Kapitan]

The reason for my saying the lack of funds in the USN simply because there are naval units being decomissioned early and not being replaced, japan operates 1 on 1 redundancy so when one is decomissioned one is brought into service then next one down will go into training role.

The USN had 62 los angeles class it today has what 42? plus 3 seawolf and 3 virignias i can never see the virginias becoming as numerous as the 688's 25 of them at most i should think.

there are frigates that are paying off with no mention of a replacement auxilaries that are now stone age albeit some are still going good but i havnt heard of any new mine warfare vessel at all.

So if this is wrong can some one post up something please.

[Jimbuna]

Looks like the grand plan is to nuke em before they get the chance to lay any mines :D

[XabbaRus]

But you have to remember that the new Chinese SSN is believed to be based on Viktor III. That isn't a new design. A generation behind the Akula at least.

Also How highly specced are the Chinese Flankers? From what I have heard teh chinese are having a very hard time copying in the engines. They don't have the materials skills do make them reliable. I think it is easy to underestimate Russia's attitude to China. I am sure they are aware of the threat and China's desire to take Siberia.

[Jimbuna]

But you have to remember that the new Chinese SSN is believed to be based on Viktor III. That isn't a new design. A generation behind the Akula at least.

Precisely the point I was trying to make in #10 :up:

[Tchocky]

They're putting an indigenous engine in the J-10 soon, and that uses the same Saturn turbofan as the Flanker.
But yeah, they've had a lot of trouble with it. It's really there to remove export restrictions.

[TLAM Strike]

...but i havnt heard of any new mine warfare vessel at all. I think they are going with Seahawks/Sea Stallions and UUVs in that role now. Seahawks with LIDAR mine detectors, Stallions with mine sweeping sleads for Moored mines and UUVs to located bottom mines and ROVs to plant detonators to take them out.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Also How highly specced are the Chinese Flankers? From what I have heard teh chinese are having a very hard time copying in the engines. They don't have the materials skills do make them reliable. I think it is easy to underestimate Russia's attitude to China. I am sure they are aware of the threat and China's desire to take Siberia.

The new ones are very highly spec'ed, I'd call them a Russian built F-15E:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/su30.asp

The older Flanker's certainly had their problems, I also recall the Chinese built ones had structural problems. But I'll bet this has been fixed by now. They are for sure getting engine upgrades, and I would bet rewired for the R-77 if they haven't already been.

So if this is wrong can some one post up something please.
Not wrong, but the state of the USN is far from being worrisome as you mentioned earlier. The USN is, and will be for the foreseeable future capable of beating up the several next most powerful Navy's combined. Our priorities have shifted to fighting trash wars and insurgencies, so naturally the funding has gone elsewhere. They are retiring all the Cold War built ships and replacing them because there is no enemy for them to sink anymore. And we are still left with a force that is far and away the most capable Navy on the planet, so I don't see a need to be worried.

PD

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Delta III started in 72 which could mean even 30 years tech
Delta IV between 85-92 which means 15-22 years tech

Either way.....a worthy adversary if taken too lightly :yep:

Actually, by that logic, American subs are also heavily concentrated on 20-30 year old tech (LAs were built in the 70s and 80s). The mechanics may be older generation, but the electronics (sonar) will not be nearly that far behind because electronics advance so fast

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Not wrong, but the state of the USN is far from being worrisome as you mentioned earlier. The USN is, and will be for the foreseeable future capable of beating up the several next most powerful Navy's combined. Our priorities have shifted to fighting trash wars and insurgencies, so naturally the funding has gone elsewhere. They are retiring all the Cold War built ships and replacing them because there is no enemy for them to sink anymore. And we are still left with a force that is far and away the most capable Navy on the planet, so I don't see a need to be worried.

IMO, The problem with the USN is a litttle analogous to Russia, though a lot less severe.

Even in the pits of the 90s, the Russian military budget is still hardly SMALL. IIRC, it is roughly comparable to say the UK's (and probably other European countries).

It will have been fine if Russia had immediately managed to disarm to say an army comparable to a European state - a few land divisions, with corresponding cuts to the Navy and Air Force. The few remaining units could then be trained and equipped to a reasonable degree of readiness.

But for various reasons, they could not do that. So instead they had dozens of divisions, except almost all of them are not combat-ready, and the readiness of even the few "ready" units is badly affected. In trying to preserve everything, they preserved nothing, despite spending what is still a hefty sum of money on the military, because the cash is spread too thin to be truly effective.

The USN is in the same straits - it is still given the most resources of any navy in the world. But with every piece of military equipment becoming so expensive, it still isn't enough for everything they want to do.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Russia is incapable of understanding it's own history apparently. There is a simple historical context here with Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. They're kind of repeating this process with China now by selling them fighter aircraft technology, missile technology, and submarine construction/technology. I think this is definitely going to bite Russia hard down the road. This is not smart of the Russians in any way. Perhaps it's greed. Perhaps it's stupidity. Perhaps it's suicidal inclinations. It doesn't matter really. Whatever the case, if Russia is helping China field sea based strategic nuclear weapons, they're not doing themselves or anybody else any favors. BTW, the American Democrat party under Bill Cinton helped to transfer to the Chinese missile guidance related technologies. So it's not just the Russians. The Democrat party here in America royally screwed us and pretty much the rest of the Western world here as well.

Actually, it is incapable of caring about its history. Without the exports, Russia's defense industry will collapse completely, and once it does it would be next to impossible to start it back up again as a competitive industry. Which will of course make them very vulnerable.

As I see it, they are gambling they can get back on their feet before the Chinese or Iranians get enough combat coefficient (equipment does not necessarily translate well to combat coefficient) from the imports.

Actually, subs are perhaps the safest thing Russia can give China. Sell them tanks and China got almost no place to use them on except against Siberia. Sell them planes or air defense missiles, and the Chinese can use them against Taiwan, Japan and the United States as well - but they can still be reoriented quickly against Russia.

But subs and ships are predominantly useful against Taiwan, Japan and the US. They are of relatively limited importance against a continental power. Russia's currently an oil exporter, with a great many natural resources within its borders - they are relatively unaffected by the sea.

Large Subs and ships also tend to be sophisticated things that take a long time to master in comparison to planes and tanks. Which means a longer delay between China's acquisition of the equipment and turning it into genuinely usable combat coefficient.
Finally, if you believe MAD theory, giving China better tech for SSBN quieting may be viewed as a plus. In giving the Chinese a less vulnerable nuclear deterrent, at least one reason for a nuclear first-strike is weakened.