"Be more aggressive"

[Von Tonner]

When I first started playing subsim in SHIII on my first patrol I came accross this "be more aggressive" phrase for the first time. At the time I thought it was just "game speak". However, now with SHIV I see it used a lot in reference to many real time US sub commanders, for example:


Posted by mookiemookie
fter shakedown, Seahorse reached the Pacific in the summer of 1943 under CDR Don McGregor and departed on 3 August for her first war patrol. It was not successful. Stationed off the Palaus, McGregor made only two attacks and allowed a number of convoys pass by unscathed. After the boat returned to port, an investigation of her poor performance by VADM Lockwood and his staff led to McGregor's removal for not being aggressive enough, and Cutter fleeted up to become the Commanding Officer of Seahorse in October 1943. "

And Commander Morton got command of Wahoo because the previous commander was found to be "too timid".

This really puzzels me as firstly why would these men want to command a sub in the first place if they didn't have that 'Lets stick it to them" attitude. More so after the cowardly attack on their homeland. Secondly, I would have thought that given the enviroment of sub warfare and the restricted conditions of operation, that this type of service would have appealed to those that like to "push the envelope" so to speak. Thirdly, if this lack of aggression was a product of their training program why then were the same personel their judges, after all, they trained them. Couldn't they have seen the training program was defective and simply retrained them if that was the case. And lastly, given that this was introduced into SHIII is one to assume that this lack of aggression was common among commanders of subs in other navies.

[MGR1]

Most armed forces go through a weeding process in the first year or so of a war.

The officers that get chopped are normally the ones who are qualified for doing the job in peace time, but lack the ability to do the same job under the pressure of combat.

Mike.:)

[PepsiCan]

Hi

What also did not help is the culture. US subs were supposed to be used as support for the surface fleet. The original doctrine was that subs would sail together with the surface fleet to engage the enemy (hence the name fleet submarine). Engaging warships and doing recon missions were the main tasks and attacks on merchants should happen according to the price rules (surface, warn vessel to abandon ship, sink it, rescue survivors).

Because the submarine arm still needed to establish itself within the navy as a weapon of importance (there were serious doubts as to whether subs could actually sail with the fleet due to their slow surface speed) and because US doctrine assumed that asdic would make it very difficult to break through a destroyer screen, any actions against standard rules and discipline were penalised rather harshly. So, this cemented a culture of carrying out orders strictly and being very cautious when engaging the 'enemy' during exercises. It meant captains showed very little initiative and were risk averse.

When war broke out, Nimitz ordered unrestricted sub warfare. It required boats to operate deep in enemy territory no longer at arms length of submarine command. What you need in those circumstances is a commander that can assess the tactical situation and act at his own discretion. Exactly the opposite type of commander that the US navy had been breading over the past two decades.

Of course it wasn't only that. Early on in the war, the US navy decided to use the broken japanese code to guide subs to japanese convoys. However, these setup rendez vous didn't always work due to navigational errors etc. It was only towards the end of 1943 that the US navy decided to have subs wait at choke points in the convoy routes. At that point the 'new' command culture came together with a sound strategy and working ammunition. A year later, the Japanese merchant navy was essentially whiped out and the US navy had succeeded in doing to Japan what the German navy failed to do to Great Britain.

[SteamWake]

Submarines are unique in warfare in that they literally have a choice to lay low out of harms reach or press an attack and risk their lives. They are in either the hunter or hunted posture.

Very little grey area between the two.

So the subs commander disgression was / is the final judgment.

It can be pretty easy to sit behind a desk and say "Jack should be more aggressive. He let that convoy slip by !" While Jack is slogging it out in 12' seas limited visibility and gale force winds.

[Von Tonner]

Thanks guys for your insights. It really explains a lot and I reckon your above comments should be put into the forward of any improved digital manuel that may come out as it sets the tone for the game. More knowledge of real sub conditions etc brings a greater keenes to the game - does for me anyway.

[Centred75]

Not to mention, being depth charged and sinking to the bottom of the ocean is a VERY scary way to die.

[mookiemookie]

Not to mention, being depth charged and sinking to the bottom of the ocean is a VERY scary way to die.
I recall reading somewhere that there was a study done and it determined that if you were on a sub that was depth charged and sinking, it would be pitch dark due to the power loss, and you would be crushed and sliced to pieces by metal beams and parts of the ship from your boat collapsing in on itself as it sunk long before you drowned.

Either way, not a pleasant way to go.

[kikn79]

Not to mention, being depth charged and sinking to the bottom of the ocean is a VERY scary way to die.
I recall reading somewhere that there was a study done and it determined that if you were on a sub that was depth charged and sinking, it would be pitch dark due to the power loss, and you would be crushed and sliced to pieces by metal beams and parts of the ship from your boat collapsing in on itself as it sunk long before you drowned.

Either way, not a pleasant way to go.

Worse yet would be the survivors of the Kursk or the F-4 where they basically suffocated. I'd rather be crushed instantly than sit on the bottom for days waiting for rescue that never comes.

Chuck

[TheSatyr]

Which is what happened on at least one of the "sugar" boats we lost between the wars. They sent divers down to the sub after it sank,and found that there were a few survivors left in the forward torpedo room. An attempt was made to salvage the sub as quickly as possible to hopefully get the sub to the surface before those men died,but they never really had a chance. The weather got bad,and the divers ran into problems. It was a gallant try,but it was doomed to failure from the very beginning.(I'd give the sub#,but to be honest I forgot which one it was. I think we lost at least 3 S Boats due to accidents between the wars.).

It was incidents like that that led to the development of the momsen lung and the special rescue diving bell.(Who's name escapes me). Which culminated in the rescue of half of the Squalus' crew after she sank due to the failure of her main induction to close during a dive.

[John Channing]

Not to mention, being depth charged and sinking to the bottom of the ocean is a VERY scary way to die.
I recall reading somewhere that there was a study done and it determined that if you were on a sub that was depth charged and sinking, it would be pitch dark due to the power loss, and you would be crushed and sliced to pieces by metal beams and parts of the ship from your boat collapsing in on itself as it sunk long before you drowned.

Either way, not a pleasant way to go.

Another theory is that the incredible pressure would cause the oxygen in the sub to ignite at the exact moment of implosion, with the resultant flash incinerating the crew.

Me? I want to go like my Grandfather...peacefully in my sleep, and not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus.

JCC

[SteamWake]

Not to mention, being depth charged and sinking to the bottom of the ocean is a VERY scary way to die.
I recall reading somewhere that there was a study done and it determined that if you were on a sub that was depth charged and sinking, it would be pitch dark due to the power loss, and you would be crushed and sliced to pieces by metal beams and parts of the ship from your boat collapsing in on itself as it sunk long before you drowned.

Either way, not a pleasant way to go.

Another theory is that the incredible pressure would cause the oxygen in the sub to ignite at the exact moment of implosion, with the resultant flash incinerating the crew.

Me? I want to go like my Grandfather...peacefully in my sleep, and not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus.

JCC

Oh this sounds like one for mythbusters to me ! :smug:

[John Channing]

I don't make the news... I just report it!

JCC

[Bando]

Me? I want to go like my Grandfather...peacefully in my sleep, and not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus.

ROFL:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

ROFL again:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: