First convoy SH3/GWX attack - report from AOD player

[MarkShot]

I just the following email off to a friend describing my first convoy attack attempt with SH3/GWX. Below if anyone is interested in some comparisons:


Well, I managed to come to PD in the middle of the convoy without detection. However, my attack scope was spotted immediately and it immediately drew a lot of gun fire.

Despite the potential for a shot as merchants were all around (especially in this game; setting up for a shot is going to take 2-4 minutes), I ordered a crash dive. Survival of the boat is always the first priority.

After 1 hours and 6-8 DC attacks, contact was broken. It seemed that we were able to be moderately tracked running silent at 2KTS. However, at 150M, they were unable to get our depth and all DCs were too shallow. Dropping to 1KTS silent, we were able to slip away.

Well, one thing SH3 does better than any sub game (with the possible exception of Sub Command) is the sound modeling. Listening to all the unique sounds on the hydrophone of merchants, warships, DCs, and explosions was truly impressive. The modeling is such that with careful study information can be gathered. However, the game gives it to you in alternative forms.

Regarding the attack compared to AOD. Certainly, it was tough day for a daytime attack from within the convoy, since the sea was very calm; easy to spot the scope. However, in AOD, the attack probably would have succeeded. Why? In AOD, the screen actively searches for subs and maintains a greater range from the convoy in daylight and fair weather conditions. Thus, slipping in under the screen guarantees sufficient time for a shot; even if detected prior to launching. However, in SH3/GWX, much to my suprise, the escorts appeared to mixed into the convoy closely with the merchants. Thus, I was immediately in close proximity to the escorts as I initiated my attack. Thus, I was foiled.

PS: My wife said of my flying days "everything happens so fast ... what fun is that?". Of my sub days she says "everything happens so slowly and is so gloomy ... what fun is that?" :)

[btaft]

Good Story Markshot!

Last night I had my first attempted convoy intercept. In stock SH3 I would have drawn a straight line from the tail of the contact marker and just lied in wait ahead of the convoy.

Not this time, no tail, just a cardinal coordinate. I plotted the general direction and some range rings to determine when I should start a search pattern. It was only a 5 hour transit to this point. I tried several legs and hydrophone checks....but no luck. Either the convoy changed direction (zigged, etc) or I just missed it or the crew was too green to pick up the convoy I will never know. Despite not being able to intercept I was actually happy to see that I couldn't find it and that I had some challenges ahead of me....making the reward all the more worthwhile!

[MarkShot]

Well, I copied my career so that I could replay the attack a number of times to see what I could learn from it:

(1) Escorts were not really in the convoy themselves. The fire which was being directed at my attack scope was coming from the merchants themselves. Although this fire is to be taken seriously, there is certainly adequate time to get off a spread of four provided that you properly anticipate a bore sited AOB 90 attack on a close merchant.

(2) Given the above, it is possible to have your solution at 80% readiness before raising the scope. Thus, as the scope comes up, you can do the final refinement and launch.

(3) Once the fish are away, it's time to crash dive anyway. Watching kills is always the mark of inexperience in subsims ... like any good sniper, one shoots and displaces immediately.

(4) So, it is my estimation that such attacks are completely viable.

My biggest fear in making such attacks be it: AOD, SH1, or SH3 is that you come to PD in the direct path of a merchant which runs over your boat. With contacts on here, this is not too bad, since you can really see their path. Even in AOD, it can be worked out. If you have fast swinging lines of bearing with one group and a single line holding steady, then you are on a collision course. Without contacts on in SH3, you could get the same thing by having sonar tracking the closest merchant; once again a rapidly closing close merchant with no bearing change is an impending collision.

[Hitman]

AOD has still the best gameplay ever IMO. But nowadays, I couldn't return to it not because of the graphics, but because of the manual targeting. I have becomed really inloved with that essential aspect of gameplay, and could not go on without it:up:

[Pablo]

Well, I copied my career so that I could replay the attack a number of times to see what I could learn from it:

(1) Escorts were not really in the convoy themselves. The fire which was being directed at my attack scope was coming from the merchants themselves. Although this fire is to be taken seriously, there is certainly adequate time to get off a spread of four provided that you properly anticipate a bore sited AOB 90 attack on a close merchant.

(2) Given the above, it is possible to have your solution at 80% readiness before raising the scope. Thus, as the scope comes up, you can do the final refinement and launch.

(3) Once the fish are away, it's time to crash dive anyway. Watching kills is always the mark of inexperience in subsims ... like any good sniper, one shoots and displaces immediately. Well, it could be the mark of someone who just likes watch the explosions! :)

(4) So, it is my estimation that such attacks are completely viable. IMHO you are correct that there is adequate time to get of a shot provided you have a good solution via hydrophone and are at least 300-400 yards (minimum torpedo arming distance) away from your target; however, you must be quick as the escorts will begin closing in on you as soon as the merchants spot you. This is not necessarily critical in the early years when the escorts have to overrun your position to attack you and you can maneuver in their sonar blind zones as they rush in, but later in the war their ability to throw hedgehogs ahead of their position really reduces your safety margin: if you are still close to the surface when a hedgehog-equipped convoy escort comes in range you may be in for a short, rough ride. Good situational awareness is the key to survival when knife-fighting with a convoy.

I generally wait to attack convoys at night to reduce the possibility of one of the merchants spotting me before my torpedoes announce my presence; they aren't the best spotters in the world, but the number of eyes in the convoy adds up quickly, and if any of them detect you they all detect you. Later in the war, I try to shoot from outside the escort screen at ships on the far side of a convoy, as the escort AI seems to respond to the side of the convoy that is struck, rather than the side of the individual ship that is torpedoed. FAT (track-reversing torpedoes) can be very useful in this regard. These approaches maximize my time to set up the shot, shoot, and then start my evasion routine.

My biggest fear in making such attacks be it: AOD, SH1, or SH3 is that you come to PD in the direct path of a merchant which runs over your boat. With contacts on here, this is not too bad, since you can really see their path. Even in AOD, it can be worked out. If you have fast swinging lines of bearing with one group and a single line holding steady, then you are on a collision course. Without contacts on in SH3, you could get the same thing by having sonar tracking the closest merchant; once again a rapidly closing close merchant with no bearing change is an impending collision. I would probably track the closest ship, regardless of whether it is a merchant or not: if an escort is suddenly the closest I would like to know now! :)

Nice write-up!

Pablo

[MarkShot]

More comparison impressions between SH3/GWX and AOD (comparing mid-41 in a VIIC):

*** Preparations ***

Depending on what options you use in SH3/GWX, preparing for an attack can be more challenging as you try to plot a track for the convoy. AOD provides you with a strat map course and position marker which gives you everything which you need.

Preparations may be more interesting in AOD. There is a real BDU which may order you to only shadow the convoy as a wolf pack is formed up. Then, after a day or two, the order goes out to attack.

*** Long & Medium Attack ***

The long and medium positioning to attack in AOD is harder. Escorts ping constantly and seem to cover more surface area as they screen the convoy. Additionally, they are generally positioned further out from the convoy ... which could, of course, account for the fact that they seem to move around more. So, getting past the screen is quite a bit more difficult.

In AOD, going deep seems to be a good way to avoid the screen. I haven't really tried that in SH3/GWX, because when moving at 1kts coming to PD takes forever. Diving and surfacing seem quite a bit faster in AOD.

Another thing which makes long and medium positioning in AOD harder than SH3/GWX is that the convoy seems to alter course more frequently and radically in AOD. Zigs occur after, at most, three hours, but can happen in as little as 30 minutes. Zigs will be from 20-60 degrees. However, after playing for a while you learn to anticipate and take advantage of zigs. So, you position your boat where the convoy will be traveling the next time it zigs.

*** Close Attack ***

However, the in close portion of the attack is definitely more challenging in SH3/GWX:

(1) Many merchants seems to be armed.

(2) Escorts are much quicker to spot a scope.

(3) The escorts search for subs within the bounds of the convoy itself. So, they are in much closer proximity as you get ready to shoot.

(4) Some of the SH3 targetting options require considerably more work than AOD. On the other hand, quite a bit of AOD targetting can be done right from the map.

(5) SA tends to be higher in AOD.

(6) Convoys seem to be more tightly packed in SH3/GWX. Thus, the danger of getting run over by merchants is much greater.

*** Disengaging ***

This is harder in AOD:

(1) Escorts coordinate their search activities.

(2) Near misses and accurate DCs seem much more likely.

(3) Due to the above, it becomes necessary to spend battery charge and compressed air in order survive. Thus, resource management becomes much more of an issue when compared to SH3/GWX. You have maybe 7-8 good sprints to survive accurate DCs, and then your batteries are done for. Correspondingly, you have about one hour of compressed air to allow you to stay below test depth. Beyond that your boat will flood and sink.

(4) However, oxygen seems to deplete faster SH3/GWX.

[Brag]

Though I'm not familiar with AOD, the comparisons are interesting.

[MarkShot]

Well, I have been discussing SH3/GWX versus AOD with someone.

Bottomline: SH3/GWX does a better job of making an attack from inside the convoy very hard. AOD does a much better job of hunting your sub once forced down and scaring the living daylights out of you. To quote part of my discussion:


The bad is that they just don't pose that much of a threat once they have detected me. The first few times, you here "wasserbomben", you think "oh, ****!". But then you realize, they are just large firecrackers. Sometimes I listen on the sonar, but I just have not had escorts pass directly overhead. In AOD, you see the red contact line hold steady as the escort races in and all of sudden swing rapidly as it passes overhead. All the while, you hear the loud pounding of the escort's screws directly overhead through your hull (even when deep). Your sound man cries out "Depth charges in the water, sir!". Now, that scares me, since if that is what you hear, the only things which will save your is a good straight sprint if deep or possibly a radical depth change, hard turn, and sprint.

The ideal sub game has both the pain stakingly stealth attack followed by the pure terror of trying to get away after the attack.

[MarkShot]

I am enjoying getting up to speed playing SH3/GWX, but I know that I am definitely going to continue with AOD. I play lots of older games these days. If you can look beyond the graphics, you realize that some of these older games are simply fantastic. Here are some screens for your enjoyment.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markshot/tempimages/aod1.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markshot/tempimages/aod2.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markshot/tempimages/aod3.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markshot/tempimages/aod4.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markshot/tempimages/aod5.jpg

[Crimguy]

Well, I have been discussing SH3/GWX versus AOD with someone.

Bottomline: SH3/GWX does a better job of making an attack from inside the convoy very hard. AOD does a much better job of hunting your sub once forced down and scaring the living daylights out of you. To quote part of my discussion:

[quote]
The bad is that they just don't pose that much of a threat once they have detected me. The first few times, you here "wasserbomben", you think "oh, ****!". But then you realize, they are just large firecrackers

Can't say I disagree with you. The only times I've died are when I've been caught in shallow water, or I did something very stupid. But I've never played past 42. Maybe they get better for the rest of the war, and not merely more numerous?

[Pablo]

Well, I have been discussing SH3/GWX versus AOD with someone.

Bottomline: SH3/GWX does a better job of making an attack from inside the convoy very hard. AOD does a much better job of hunting your sub once forced down and scaring the living daylights out of you. To quote part of my discussion:


The bad is that they just don't pose that much of a threat once they have detected me. The first few times, you here "wasserbomben", you think "oh, ****!". But then you realize, they are just large firecrackers Can't say I disagree with you. The only times I've died are when I've been caught in shallow water, or I did something very stupid. But I've never played past 42. Maybe they get better for the rest of the war, and not merely more numerous? Hi!

Starting in 1943 the escorts get hedgehog ahead-throwing weapons, and advanced sonars that track you right up through the time they shoot the hedgehogs at you. Very nasty, especially if you encounter a hunter-killer group (escort carrier with several destroyers) that has nothing better to do but stick around above you until you run out of battery power and/or oxygen.

Using early-war tactics against these new capabilities is tantamount to suicide.

Pablo

[MarkShot]

Yes, it is only mid-41 for me. As I said escorts and evasion seems no problem for now. However, my attack tactics will require a lot of work as I have yet to put together a decent formula for attacks.

Although finding convoys and setting up for an intercept by racing ahead has been pretty easy. I trailed a convoy all through the night marking its position and was able to easily position for in the morning. There was no course changes over 12 hour period after it made the initial inbound turn in the AM grid.

Yes, I once was screwing around with the game and didn't go deep and fast. Instead I was at around 30-40M and DCs were dropped close. There was an instant hit and death. (Although with so much blue water convoy activity, I cannot imagine myself going into the shallows unless to test myself.)

However, I've been going deep (150-160M) and I have been able to crawl silent at 1kts without DCs rocking the boat. It seems at 2kts they hear you, but a 1kts they don't seem to be able to pin point you.

Perhaps it's the blast radius of the DCs. In SH2 default, there was a huge blast radius. Perhaps, GWX increased escort sensors and toned down DC blast radius. That would be a standard technique in an attempt to create long protracted sub hunts; hunts that run for 4-8 hours as opposed to 1-2 hours. Just some speculation on my part.

---

Well, Pablo, what year does that happen?

Maybe I will just launch a career at that point as I would like to give that a try. Yes, I did read in the sticky something about the early war escort losing contact as they made their run.

[MarkShot]

Bump - what year should I launch a career to see how hard escort evasion can be?

Thanks.

[Crimguy]

The later the better, wouldn't you think? I have a nice career going, and plan on taking it as far as I can. For added challenge, get ahold of a Type IX. They're pretty slow on the dive, so it can make things interesting.

On a side note, I'm watching the BBC documentary Battle of the Atlantic. ONe of the uboat skippers mentions that, of the 20 ships he sank, 19 of them were nighttime, surface attacks. I haven't been able to do a surface attack in GWX unless the weather was pea soup.

Bump - what year should I launch a career to see how hard escort evasion can be?

Thanks.

[TarJak]

Bump - what year should I launch a career to see how hard escort evasion can be?

Thanks.

I have lots of fun in 43/44 when I feel like a real challenge. Just surviving the air attacks (don't forget the planes tell the DD's etc that they have seen you), makes this a most deadly time to be a Kaleun.:arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

Bump - what year should I launch a career to see how hard escort evasion can be?

Thanks.

Try late 43 with that huge old cow (IXD2) :arrgh!:

[MarkShot]

Yes, that 3hr Battle of the Atlantic is a great documentary. I also like "The Color of War: The Silent Service" and "The Bowfin - Pearl Harbor Avenger".

I am terrified to even contemplate a night attack in GWX! They spot me just cleaning my eye glasses while submerged in the daytime! Everyone seems to be packing a gun. The escorts stay close to merchant formation. I am really scared to risk my boat like this.

In AOD, overcast/no moon/fog/heavy seas with a few km visibility was great. You would slip between a couple of escorts. You could cruise around inside the convoy looking for the best targets and then put down three big ships and zip back out to safety. Oh, the wonderous night attack!

[Crimguy]

If you have the weather on your side in '40 or '39, you can do the same in SHIII. My first patrol out with GWX I was skimming through a convoy with impunity. Visibility was only about 500m tops, and I was sniping ships at point blank, using the UZO and literally "leading" my targets. Searchlights were all over the place, but the DD's could never get a bead on me. I assume that if I dove they would have picked me up on their passive sonar.

Which brings me to my biggest problem with the ai - it cheats. I can't tell you how many times I've done a long range attack, hit a ship, and immediately find a DD sailing right towards me, or have their searchlights on me. While I can forgive this kind of action during a daylight attack, it makes no sense at all at night and submerged.

I am terrified to even contemplate a night attack in GWX! They spot me just cleaning my eye glasses while submerged in the daytime! Everyone seems to be packing a gun. The escorts stay close to merchant formation. I am really scared to risk my boat like this.

In AOD, overcast/no moon/fog/heavy seas with a few km visibility was great. You would slip between a couple of escorts. You could cruise around inside the convoy looking for the best targets and then put down three big ships and zip back out to safety. Oh, the wonderous night attack!

[Pablo]

Yes, it is only mid-41 for me. As I said escorts and evasion seems no problem for now. However, my attack tactics will require a lot of work as I have yet to put together a decent formula for attacks.

Although finding convoys and setting up for an intercept by racing ahead has been pretty easy. I trailed a convoy all through the night marking its position and was able to easily position for in the morning. There was no course changes over 12 hour period after it made the initial inbound turn in the AM grid.

Yes, I once was screwing around with the game and didn't go deep and fast. Instead I was at around 30-40M and DCs were dropped close. There was an instant hit and death. (Although with so much blue water convoy activity, I cannot imagine myself going into the shallows unless to test myself.)

However, I've been going deep (150-160M) and I have been able to crawl silent at 1kts without DCs rocking the boat. It seems at 2kts they hear you, but a 1kts they don't seem to be able to pin point you.

Perhaps it's the blast radius of the DCs. In SH2 default, there was a huge blast radius. Perhaps, GWX increased escort sensors and toned down DC blast radius. That would be a standard technique in an attempt to create long protracted sub hunts; hunts that run for 4-8 hours as opposed to 1-2 hours. Just some speculation on my part.

---

Well, Pablo, what year does that happen?

Maybe I will just launch a career at that point as I would like to give that a try. Yes, I did read in the sticky something about the early war escort losing contact as they made their run. Hi!

Sorry, I had a real-life interrupt.

The game engine does not automatically establish convoy or individual ship zig-zag plans along a base course; each zig-zag has to be manually entered when setting up the scenario or campaign, so running along parallel to a convoy to set up another attack is nowhere near as hard as it was in real life - just remember you are in a pack of one U-boat (in single player) so you need to avoid being spotted by escort radar.

The depth charge damage radius is indeed reduced to more historical values, but the game engine forces a constant damage radius while IRL the damage radius of a depth charge varied with depth (deeper explosion = smaller radius). Stock SH3 uses 300-lb depth charges, and GWX has not added the effects of historical 600-lb versions or the teardrop versions that showed up later in the war.

Try starting a career in mid-1943 and or in mid-late 1944 (be aware that the Allies will close the French U-boat bases after D-Day). The biggest step-function in difficulty is in 1943, as it was historically; in 1944 the step function is not quite as large, but the cumulative difficulty is very tough since some escorts can now track you within hedgehog range, and you will really begin to appreciate those funky homing and track-combing torpedoes when fired at a distance from the convoy to give you a chance to clear out of the area before the escort can respond.

Pablo

[MarkShot]

Variable blast ...

What was common wisdom on that debate?

Go deep, diminishes the blast and lowers the chance of a hit. However, if hit, it would be catastrophic.

Go shallow, increases the chance of hit. However, with less water pressure, leaking is not nearly as severe.

Myself I have always opted for the deep ... of the school of thought that the DC needs about 45-60 seconds to reach you. I saw an explanation somewhere that going to flank at that depth allows just enough time to get your boat clear of the DCs if well placed.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

There is no depth-based variable blast radius in SH3. There is either random damage output, or at least assigned damage reducing with distance from the center of detonation... However, the full range of damage output by a DC remains unaffected by depth in SH3.

When you are deep, bursts of flank speed coupled with directional changes do indeed help you evade DC's... if you are willing to risk potentially being heard by the hydrophones of other nearby ASW vessels.

There is also a tertiary reason for reducing the DC damage radius. In stock SH3, DD's occasionally blow up their own sterns. (typically when the player is shallow)

Though this bug is alleviated a great deal in GWX, it is not completely eliminated.

Prior to our adjustments, we also found that the detonation depth precision was too fine... causing laser guided DC attacks on both the horizontal and vertical planes. (Similar to the laser-guided deck gun fire and AA fire from both player and enemy units in stock SH3... as a result all guns in GWX have been purposefully "destabilized" to account for sea states, pitching and rolling, distance etc... and these effects are magnified more the worse conditions become.)

[jmr]

MarkShot, are you running Command AOD or the old DOS version? I have CAOD but I'm having trouble running it under WinXP. Have any tips to get it to work or do I need the DOS version along with DosBox to get good results?

[MarkShot]

Jmr,

I have both versions, but prefer the DOS. I think the graphics are bit better (if you can even talk about such a thing for a game from 1994) and you get engine pitch variations with the DOS version.

However, I can attest to the fact that AOD has lots of atomosphere and quality game play. If you get over the loss of graphics, then what else you are missing from SH3/GWX is personal use of the hydrophone, crew management, and manual TDC. On the other hand, you get a real Bdu which will form wolf packs.

The main problem people have running CAOD under XP or Vista is the sound card. Usually, you can get it to run without sound in compatibility mode. To run CAOD with sound, you should install/configure Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 (now a free download) with an older OS like Win 95 or Win98.

PM me if you want further information.

[jmr]

Actually, didn't CAOTD have higher res graphics (640x480) than the Dos version?

[MarkShot]

I think so, but I still think the DOS looks better. :)