A word of advice for all Subsim skippers..

[CaptainHaplo]

There have recently been a slew of closed threads - all relating to "if ubi doesn't patch SH4 then we oughtta......"

Folks, these discussions are pointless, and reflect badly on the forum. This forum is the #1 naval (NOTE - not just sub) "bbs" out there. A multitude of companies look at this site - not just Ubi. In the last few years we have gotten extra tidbits first from these companies because of the support and activity they see here. If they come here and see flame and threat posts, their interest in us as a community - and as consumers - dies.

And do you think SH3 and 4 where as moddable as they were because the devs felt like doing it that way? It was done that way to better serve us. No - its not easy - but they could have hard coded darned near everything....

No - I am not happy with SH4 in its current state. But there are ways to voice your opinion. Email them - sign Neal's petition - and Wait. IF Ubi decides 1.2 is it - then a discussion can take place as to what happens then - but even then - THIS site is not the place for that discussion. But at this point alot of people are putting the cart before the horse, with threats and such when no decision is yet made. Given the support SH3 recieved - and the fact Ubi listened on the starforce issue - aren't some folks going of the deep end?

Threats of lawsuits, boycotts, etc do nothing to pressure companies - or individuals for that matter. They look at a buglist - say "man we cant fix 70+ bugs in one more patch - so these people will still be screaming at us with these threats even if we make another patch - so why should we?" They know they will never make everyone totally happy - so when you act like this - they wonder why they should try. When you let them know "hey - here is a list of stuff that needs addressing - and a whole slew of us would love to see these things fixed" - they are gonna be a lot more apt to consider putting resources into it.

What I am trying to get across is this - voice your displeasure to Ubisoft - but remember that what you post here reflects on not just you - but on us all. So remember why your here - to enjoy good discussion about games, enjoy the humor and company, and help make Subsim even better.

That is what has made Subsim what it is today, and will keep gaming companies (not just Ubi) - interested in the desires of this community.

[AVGWarhawk]

:up:

Right on target! Sign the vote poll and Neals poll. Go to the UBI site and state your case for the patch. Let them hear your voice for why we need a patch.

[mookiemookie]

Buy that man a beer! :()1:

[terrapin]

There have recently been a slew of closed threads - all relating to "if ubi doesn't patch SH4 then we oughtta......"

Folks....buzzz...

Thanks for that enlightment. We need such advice badly.

[Chock]

Right on baby! Agree totally. There is no need to get snotty with UBISOFT before we even know what they are fixing and tweeking. But the 'gentle' reminder of the 1.3 petition thread lets the company know how we feel without causing ill-will.

Fortunately, on Neal's 1.3 patch petition thread, virtually everyone has responded in a polite way. Merely stating the case with maybe a useful comment or two and signing their name.

I think it's fair to say that simulator software tends to be aimed at the more mature gaming fan than perhaps FPS-type games are (I like those too BTW), but you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise with some of the threads that have appeared on this forum recently.

[Herr Kapitan]

Nonsense, UbiSoft have a duty of care to it's paying customers to patch this game and do it properly as well.

If they leave this game unfinished then there is no excuse for them. So many people preface their desire for a 1.3 patch with the word please, well let me tell you now the only please should be coming from UbiSoft... along the lines of please forgive us for taking your custom for granted and for making you pay full price for something that was half finished. And what's more they knew it was half finished as well.

Can I just say to you Ubisoft you have really shot yourself in the foot this time, in future people will not be interested in your half finished offerings and will demand finished games before buying from you, and long may it continue that way as well.

[Wave Skipper]

The bottom line is that I marked SH4 game packages with my finger nail at two stores a month ago and those games are still there growing older by the day with no takers. I was lusting for this game when it came out - but due to my work I did not have time to go buy it and load it - so I waited a few weeks. Then it became obvious that SH4 made SH3 look like a near perfect game. I had been sickened by the SH3 fixes done by Ubi - it only really became a game after much modding. I was going to be damned if I was going to go through another period of crap like that. SO I decided to WAIT for SH4 patch 1.4. But as time passed the lists of troubles kept piling up - I follow many sites and made a master list of all I could find. This game was a bit less than 50% completed when shipped. I can't think of another game of this class and cost that was so totally screwed up. I don't blame the DEVS - I blame the company and the suits who run the mess. I've worked enough in orginizations to know where the blame should go!

I do grow tired of all the EXCUSE makers whom I assume are talking heads for Ubi. I realized beofre patch 1.2 came out that I would be lucky to see patch 1.4. I do think you will see patch 1.3 and it may fix a great deal of your problems. I think that Ubi realizes that this next patch will be about it, and they know it has to be a very good one! They need an instant change in how the public views them and I think they will make sure patch SH4 1.3 is better than that patch 1.3 was for SH3. But it will still fall short and if sales don't pick up, Ubi will just forget patch 1.4.

Are modders coming to the rescue this time? I know some who have just walked away. I am afraid SH4 may turn out to be SH2(version 4) as regards flaws. Likely Ubi will get out of sub games which might be good for everyone. This would open a slot up in the market and perhaps in some years another company could step in to fill it better. But personally I am ready to forgive Ubi EVERYTHING if it will continue to help in making SH4 a true functional game. I just doubt it will. Obviously SH4 has very bad managment. Perhaps Ubi could sell it's code to another better run outfit?

In any event I continue with SH3.

[John Channing]

Ubisoft Sales for 4th fiscal quarter 06-07.


"Sales for the fourth quarter of 2006-07 came to €197 million, up 37.4%, or 41.7% at constant exchange rates, compared with the €144 million recorded for the same period of 2005-06.

Full-year sales for fiscal 2006-07 totaled €680 million, versus €547 million for fiscal 2005-06, representing an increase of 24.4%, or 27.2% at constant exchange rates.

Fourth-quarter sales beat the €152 million minimum target Ubisoft projected in its third-quarter sales figures announcement by €45 million. "

JCC

[mookiemookie]

Nonsense, UbiSoft have a duty of care to it's paying customers to patch this game and do it properly as well.

If they leave this game unfinished then there is no excuse for them. So many people preface their desire for a 1.3 patch with the word please, well let me tell you now the only please should be coming from UbiSoft... along the lines of please forgive us for taking your custom for granted and for making you pay full price for something that was half finished. And what's more they knew it was half finished as well.

Can I just say to you Ubisoft you have really shot yourself in the foot this time, in future people will not be interested in your half finished offerings and will demand finished games before buying from you, and long may it continue that way as well.

You catch more flies with honey than you do vinegar.

[Hitman]

voice your displeasure to Ubisoft - but remember that what you post here reflects on not just you - but on us all

So true!!:up: :up: :up:


Right now I just wish one thing: No matter if a 1.3 patch is out (I obviously prefer it to happen), I want this all to end now, with a definitive decission. Really, I prefer the game not to stay at 1.2 level, but ultimately what I look forward is to all ranting ending and the modders silently but firmly getting into the game and correcting/improving anything in need of it. Modders can work marvels, and trust me as a veteran of naval games and modding: SH4 1.2 can be kicked through modding to a level even better and historically more accurate than SH3. The peculiarities of the Pacific warfare fit way better into the current engine limitations than the Atlantic battle, and I know what I'm talking about!.

[CaptainHaplo]

Herr Kapitan and Wave Skipper,

Your both entitled to your view - what I am stating here is NOT that your wrong - NOT that Ubisoft doesnt "owe" us another patch - I am simply letting it be known that this forum is bigger than SH4, its issues and Ubisoft. You can gripe and complain all day long - but doing it HERE - reflects badly on us as a community - when you have the OPPORTUNITY to complain to Ubisoft directly.

I am not telling anyone that they should not be unhappy about Ubisoft's lack of info on a patch, if one occurs. I am not saying we dont have a right to be ticked if it doesnt happen.

I am however reminding everyone that HERE is called subsim.com - NOT Ubisoft.com - and complaints, threats and everything else are not only ineffective - but your telling the wrong people.

Here in the south of the US - we have a saying. Its called "Your preaching to the choir." We ALL want a patch - and there are threads for you to voice your desire for one. But do so with some maturity, and if you want to threaten lawsuits, boycotts, or laying a fat steaming smelly present on some executives desk, do it elsewhere. Subsim.com isnt the place for it. I dont think that is to much to ask. I am asking - moderators close threads. Take your pick gents.

[TheSatyr]

Where is the OFFICIAL word from Ubi or a Dev? All we have is the word of a guy that runs an SH4 site who may or may not have a grudge against Ubi or SH4. I never take the word of a third party on anything.

Until we get OFFICIAL word from an actual representative from UBI or from the Dev team,then I honestly think you all are overeacting big time.

[terrapin]

Where is the OFFICIAL word from Ubi or a Dev? All we have is the word of a guy that runs an SH4 site who may or may not have a grudge against Ubi or SH4. I never take the word of a third party on anything.

Until we get OFFICIAL word from an actual representative from UBI or from the Dev team,then I honestly think you all are overeacting big time.


you're pretty misinformed.:down:.

[U-927]

Ive seen this before, and then nothng happens.
You have to remember your not dealing with just people, your dealing with a multi million $$ company.
It's no skin off their noses to throw a bone once in awhile.
I don't know how things work where your at, but here debate is how things get done and ideas are formed.
I see this as another attempt to appease people in order to keep them quiet.
I don't like adversarial contriversy, but I like healthy debate and idea spawning, and if this community is going to become better and grow then you have to allow people to voice their opinions, no matter what you may think of it.
It's sort of like a grab bag at a grocery store, you pick up and keep what you like and discard the rest.
I have learned more in the past week here than I have the whole time I have been associated with this community, and all thru open discussion before it was quashed .
The people are what make a community, become a strong community then people will want to deal with you because you have the juice and man power to get things done.
If you worry about stepping on toes and hurting some executives feelings, then all your going to get is a bone thrown to ya once in awhile.
I want the same things you folks want, but all I see right now is the same thing I have seen since I joined way back when, the same road with the same bumps and ruts in it.



Charlie

[-Pv-]

I agree with Haplo and Satyr.

Way too much speculation and over-reacting and not enough hard information.
All the yelling about lawsuits and not buying any more UBSoft started months ago.
-Pv-

[U-927]

I've heard the same fodder for yrs, it just gets wrapped into a never ending loop and becomes retroactive with each new game.

[CaptainHaplo]

U-927 - I remember this same type of thing with SH3. Your right - it will always happen. The fact is - not everyone is going to be happy no matter if Ubi made patches every 2 months for the next couple of years.... somebody would be screaming for heads to roll, legal papers to be filed, tigers to be tamed, alligators to be wrestled, revolutions to be started and coup's to be quashed all at the same time.

The key here is that alot of people are screaming alot of what-if scenarios. We dont have an answer from Ubi - yet. When we get it - then we will go from there. But threats against companies - especially when Neal is trying to lead the way on communicating our desires logically - hurts the cause - and the community.

Ubisoft isnt the only company that checks this community. When they look here and consider making a game we all would want - do you want them to see a load of posts threatening the firstborn of ever Ubisoft employee if we dont get patches like we want? Cuz when they see that type of thing, they figure they are better off sinking resources into the next FPS or whatever. If they see a community trying to effectively communicate their desires - and if they see another company not responding as we want - guess what - they are going to smile and say "niche market chaching!" and give serious thought to something we are gonna like. With the level of respect subsim has earned - they look at what things we have said we wanted in our games - and try to cater to us.

Which do you want? I am not saying there shouldnt be discussion - what I am saying is any discussion is moot until there is word from Ubi. And then - discussion isnt threatening legal action. Hope this clarifies what I meant.

[Jmack]

reactions on UBI forums are allot worse than here ...

[U-927]

Well, lets get all the rederick out of our systems and come up with some fresh new Ideas .
I see a perpetual loop here and it hasn't changed sinch the late 90's, it is the same verbage, same ideas, same ,same, same.
We need to break out of this and get some new stuff happening.
And call me Charlie, the number is my commission number.

Charlie

[Jmack]

online petition on an external petition site sounded a bad idea so it seems ...

[mookiemookie]

online petition on an external petition site sounded a bad idea so it seems ...

Internet petitions usually are. They don't carry any real weight as it's easy for a small group of users to inflate the number of signers to the petition.

[U-927]

I can tell you from experiance that no one takes anyhting that happens online serious, it cost the City of Sparks a few Million dollars cause they didn't believe someones story about an online incident.

[Jmack]

a petition would be a form of ubi see that what allot of people feel about this subject nothing more ...

[DJSatane]

As much as I agree with this thread, do you really think UBI cares what's on this forum? They made their money and I doubt they care what we say on this forum. If they did care, the game wouldnt be released in such a poor state.

[Stew U-582]

I just had a look at the ubi.com forums in the hope of locating more mods.
I have never seen so much rubish in my life.
Looked like a bunch of spoiled kiddies screaming and demanding for this and that.

I totly agree with this post

pls dont let subsim degrade to this level

if more poeple devoted thier time to being creative instead of destructive
we would all be better off.

I take my hat off to the great work ive seen here
Keep it up guys.

[terrapin]

As much as I agree with this thread, do you really think UBI cares what's on this forum? They made their money and I doubt they care what we say on this forum. If they did care, the game wouldnt be released in such a poor state.

They should care. Subsim.com is a STRONG lobby for naval gamers.

[DS]

Sure there are a few things that I would like to see fixed in SH4, but I think the people that really bad mouthing it are way over the top.

I would love to see 1.3 come out and fix a few things, but frankly, I'm playing 1.2 with mods and LOVING IT.

With mods, my radar detects incoming planes and ships, and I can plot intercepts and make estimates on ship speeds for firing solutions with it. When it is fixed, guess what, I will still be detecting planes and ships and using the information generated, just as I already am now.

So my stop watch doesn't work like it did in SH3. To my knowlege, no sub skipper had a stopwatch that calculated a ship's speed. It only calculated elapsed time. The rest is math. You want realism? Do the math. There are handy guides in this forum that will show you how. I run manual targeting, and I get hits at a realistic rate. Frankly, I think the magic stop watch should go under the category of "CHEAT".

People say that the damage control is "damaged" because it only shows dynamic damage, not static damage. OK, I agree, but let's also remember that in real life, if your boat on war patrol took damage that knocked engines out and opened holes in your pressure hull, your war patrol was OVER! You returned to base, if you could. And you sure did not complain about how you can't understand why your boat is sinking uncontrolllably after your just ordered a dive to 300 feet with a jury rigged patch on a 5" gun hole in your pressure hull. I mean really, you take a hole in the pressure hull, your boat's diving days are finished until there is a complete overhaul in drydock. Fixing this kind of damage at sea is unrealistic. So the work around to this code is - if you take significant damage at sea, avoid diving and return to base immediately, just like in real life.

This sim is not perfect. I support the quest for 1.3. But for those that bring tons of negative energy into this community with complaining and even threats to the people that make the games we enjoy, and even go so far as to suggest anyone who disagrees with their complaining is a corporate "talking head" in disguise (please :roll: ) I have to say I disagree completely with your approach, and no I have nothing to do with any of the companies involved.

I do not look upon myself as a "consumer" when it comes to sub sims. I look upon myself as a member of a hobby community that is there to help others enjoy this hobby, and help developers and modders alike deliver what we want in a sub sim. Nothing will please everyone, and nothing will ever be perfect. That said, SH4 is a great sim in a very small gaming genre, I am having loads of fun EVERY DAY with this sim, and I hope that this will not be the last work from the devs in the Silent Hunter franchise.

[DS]

I just had a thought. If all the "EXCUSE makers" are "talking heads for Ubi", couldn't the folks stirring up discontent and hurting sales be talking heads for Ubi's competitors?:hmm:

Sorry, but that open ended attack on the integrity of any subsim community member who disagrees with the negative camp (it's not the first example I have seen here) does not sit well with me at all. :nope:

[Takeda Shingen]

online petition on an external petition site sounded a bad idea so it seems ...

Internet petitions usually are. They don't carry any real weight as it's easy for a small group of users to inflate the number of signers to the petition.

They have worked in the past. Fix My 688(i) anyone?

[U-927]

We've heard all this in the past, screw being suspicious about who is a shill, who is this or that, question is, what fresh ideas are we going to bring to the table?
If these Corprate executives do visit here from time to time they aren't going to say anything about it, but if you have some new fresh Ideas, they just might put them in the back of their mellons until they are ready to come up with a new project.
You never know, but as long as they see the same crap being spewed out time and again, they won't even give us a second glance.
It's good to make some nose, it get's their attention, question is when you get their attention how do you keep it ?


Charlie
PS:
I don't work for anyone, Im retired

[CaptainHaplo]

Charlie - an excellent question. I can answer it by saying you KEEP gaming companies interested by having a community that is clear and concise in what it wants, mature enough to discuss matters without threats when decisions are not even made yet, and willing to remember both the GOOD AND the BAD that any particular software company may dish out.

Ubisoft does not get a free pass just because they make sub games. The Subsim community was instrumental in getting them to drop starforce for example. We let it be known - make SH4 with it - and we won't purchase it. However - that concern was raised WHEN we learned that SH4 was being made - which we learned because of MODDERS! In case folks have forgotten - modders were making a pacific war port of SH3 - and were told to stop by Ubi because they were planning SH4 and had not told anyone! That is how we learned about SH4!!!

Another example was the last SH3 patch. For a while it looked like we wouldnt get it. There were 23 "changes and fixes" in 1.4 - no - none were extremely major - the AI issues were handled before 1.4 - but there were things important enough to address. The main "fix" in 1.4 was the ability to change the storm settings for manning the deck fun in SH3 - at least in my view. That was a bug the community had screamed about for a long time - anything over 7m/s and we couldnt shoot - but by neptune every merchant with an air rifle on board could - not to mention everything else!

The fact is - we have worked to get changes made in the past - and have seen that reasonable requests - backed by the voice of the community - has gotten results. That doesnt guarantee one now - but as I write this Neal's thread has over 1100 signers..... Ubisoft has gotten alot of email as of late regarding this as well. They have their customers letting them know they need to fix this, as well as the devs going in to the "suits" and showing them - this doesnt work like its supposed to - we need to fix this.

1100 signers - in the space of a few days. And for every one of us who signed - Ubi knows there are 5 to 10 others who are not pleased but may simply not know about subsim - but do know they didnt get a product that works. Think 10k+ sales matters to executives - it does...

[CTU_Clay]

Let me stick my 2-cents in here as a consumer without knowledge of revising games with mod this, mod that etc. Just give me a patch with a self-installing program.

I am 66 years old and retired. I have a few computer based video games that I enjoy. One being NASCAR 2003 Season & SH3. (no mods installed in SH3 because I do not know how to install them correctly)
But for me to buy a computer video game (SH4) and then tell me I have to install “this mod, that mod and this one too, to make it work right” takes me out of the game. I am not computer savvy enough to install mods and make them work. I just bearly know how to turn the darn machine on.

I have placed my copy of SH4 on my closet shelf. It does not work. Price $62.00 including shipping for something that does not work and I can-not return

RC Reynolds SR

[U-927]

Hap I agree
But Im still seeing the same grips as in the past, I wish I knew more about PC code I might be able to have a better input for this, but as it is , I just enjoy good debate , and sometimes I have a synaptic misfire which errupts into an idea or sorts.
And as for my fellow retireee, the SH4 game patches are self installing, the Mods however are more tricky if you do not know how to navigate to folders, the best thing you can do is to become familar with the folders of the game, and just go into them and explore them so you know where everything is located.
As far as installing mods, the mods just enhance the game play by making better night visability for example.
once you learn how to insert stuff into the folders you will be on your way, just remember before inserting anything in the form of a mod, just back up the original file somewhere else on your PC just incase the mod isn't compatable or does'nt work correctly for you .
When SH2 first came out I could barely start my PC with out the owners manuel, now I can build the danged things.
Thanks Hap , and good luck fellow Ol timer.

Charlie

[popeye]

I agree with the original poster 100%. one of the art directors there at UBI is also my best freind. i dont think he worked on SH4, but i do understand those guys. i would rather have a quirky game from them, than nothing at all. when i look around my PC, about half the games i play come from them.

if i want to send communist swine to hell, its IL2.

if i want to shoot nazi's in the face, its Earned in Blood.

if i want to blow jap aircraft carriers to little bits....it's SH4.

carry on.

[btaft]

I have to agree with the original poster 100%

The boycotts, lawsuit threats are essentially empty threats at best, born out of frustration. We have a right to be frustrated and we should identify the bugs and make this information available.....afterall this essentially becomes the "punch list" from which to work from. But complaining over and over again doesn't help either.

I have a saying in my line of work...."Don't bring me problems......Bring me solutions". The perfect illustration of this in action is in the forum one down from this one......SH4 Modders Workshop. There is a group of people that have identified many of the problems but have taken it one step forward and have started, and in many instances been successful in rectifying them or at least being able to identify them as hardcoded and requiring direct UBI intervention. From these efforts eventually come collaborative works of art like GWX or Real Boat. These tireless efforts have not only histroically squashed the minor bugs but have alsotaken things a step further to enhance the initial product with detail that no publisher would ever dream of putting into a commercial product.

Deatiled Sims and strategy games are niche markets that are typically not overally profitable and are thus highly dependent upon community support (i.e. mods) to make then be what the dedicated user would llike them to be. Even the Microsoft Flight series has been dependent upon thrid party intervention (i.e. essentially "commercial modders") to provide highly detailed airports and airplanes. These Niche markets are likely to become even more of a niche market where they are produced only by "mom+pop" shops like many of the titles at battlefront or matrix games or are produced by as a declassified afterthought to a simulation made for training the military (any sonalyst product, steel beasts, etc) or by the community itself (live for speed racing sim, netkart, etc)


I guess the moral of the story is that by choosing to enjoy niche products like these we also need to be ready to be self sufficient in developing the product to our expectations after the developer has given it their best. Give the developer a list of bugs (particularly ones we can't fix), hope they fix what they can and then work diligently to fix the remainder (or at least help the modders as beta testers) and then enjoy it even more as the modders take things one step further.

Just some thoughts from a yankee living in the south

[Uber Gruber]

I am 66 years old and retired. I have a few computer based video games that I enjoy. One being NASCAR 2003 Season & SH3. (no mods installed in SH3 because I do not know how to install them correctly)
But for me to buy a computer video game (SH4) and then tell me I have to install “this mod, that mod and this one too, to make it work right” takes me out of the game. I am not computer savvy enough to install mods and make them work. I just bearly know how to turn the darn machine on.

This gets my vote for the most common sense post yet!

Well said mate, well said.

[jhelix70]

Folks, these discussions are pointless, and reflect badly on the forum.

While I agree the discussions of boycotts/suits etc. may well be pointless, a question comes to mind.

What reflects worse on the forum? These discussions or a lack of free speech?

Just something philisophical to ponder.

[mookiemookie]

Folks, these discussions are pointless, and reflect badly on the forum.
While I agree the discussions of boycotts/suits etc. may well be pointless, a question comes to mind.

What reflects worse on the forum? These discussions or a lack of free speech?

Just something philisophical to ponder.
On a private forum, there is no free speech. You play by the rules set by the person who provides the forum, or you don't play at all.

Neal has a special relationship with the gaming industry and threats of boycotts and lawsuits on his forums jeopardize that relationship. I completely understand and agree with his reasoning for not wanting that discussion here. If people want to talk about those topics, there's the Ubisoft forums.

[bruschi sauro]

Let me stick my 2-cents in here as a consumer without knowledge of revising games with mod this, mod that etc. Just give me a patch with a self-installing program.

I am 66 years old and retired. I have a few computer based video games that I enjoy. One being NASCAR 2003 Season & SH3. (no mods installed in SH3 because I do not know how to install them correctly)
But for me to buy a computer video game (SH4) and then tell me I have to install “this mod, that mod and this one too, to make it work right” takes me out of the game. I am not computer savvy enough to install mods and make them work. I just bearly know how to turn the darn machine on.

I have placed my copy of SH4 on my closet shelf. It does not work. Price $62.00 including shipping for something that does not work and I can-not return

RC Reynolds SRYOU ARE RIGHT, I VOTE FOR YOU.:yep:

[U-927]

Im not seeing any new Ideas here, were hoeing the same road over and over again.
Your not going to solve this issue by bitching about it, were gonna have to put our heads together and form a rock pile.



Charlie.

PS:
My retired buddy needs to have faith, it will comearound.