Class action suit against UBI

[Uber Gruber]

I was chatting to a lawer friend of mine last night over dinner and I brought up the subject of the Sub Sim petition (he knows i'm a sub nut :-)

Anyway, he suggested that if the petition didn't work we should submit a class action suit against UBI. He felt there was a strong enough case and that if those that signed the petition were willing to put their names on the suit then we'd have no problem succeeding in the action.

He was a bit vague on what the result might be but said we should at least all be able to get the SHIV purchase price back from UBI and maybe a bit more, plus they would have to foot the bill of the class action suit.

Anyway, he's gonna look into a bit more. He reckons we'd have no problem getting representation on a no win no fee basis as its a no brainer.

Would this be of interest to the Sub Sim community ? At least it gives us an option if the petition fails.....what do you all think ?

[Psycluded]

Best idea ever.

That is, if you want to never have another Silent Hunter again. Ever.

[harrymanback]

Seems to me to be fairly inevitable that some games company will face one of these at some point. The policy of releasing clearly unfinished games seems to be the absolute norm - the problems with SHIV mirror my experiences with Battlefield 2 and Medieval 2.

Good thing is that it would only take one lawsuit and the whole industry would sit up and take notice.

[Captain Nemo]

Best idea ever.

That is, if you want to never have another Silent Hunter again. Ever.

I have to agree with Psycluded on this. If legal action were taken against UBI, then I think you can kiss any future releases in the SH series goodbye.

Nemo

[TDK1044]

If you want to make sure that Ubisoft never make another sub sim again then go for it. I don't know the validity of a potential legal claim against Ubisoft, but I do know that they don't make much profit from the Silent Hunter series.

Before people start throwing out numbers based on 300,000 sales of Silent Hunter 3 at $49, please understand that $49 is the retail price that you pay and not the price that the stores pay ubisoft in order to sell the product.

My view is that this would be a foolish venture.

[MaxT.dk]

Exactly what I've said regarding the 1.3 patch... UBI targeted SH4 at the main public for a reason... And this lawsuit will be just for the good of this little group of 100%-realism-and-historically-correct SH4 skippers and noone else

Just how I see it

[fredbass]

Who governs and holds a publisher responsible for their work anyway?

I think that's the deeper issue. I don't think it would be fair to single out any one particular publisher if many others work the same way.

[Hitman]

He was a bit vague on what the result might be but said we should at least all be able to get the SHIV purchase price back from UBI and maybe a bit more, plus they would have to foot the bill of the class action suit.


Legally speaking and according to spanish laws (Which I know quite well and are more or less similar to other EU countries in consumer's matters), in case of receiving a faulty product you can choose between: 1) Demanding the creator of it to correct it, or 2) Getting your money back plus resulting damage costs (If any). Yet if the creator doesn't want to correct faults or can't do it (If that's your option) and noone can fix it except him, you only have right to a compensation and your money back.

I'm only certain about one thing: When it comes to suing in the courts, lawyers always win. They will get their money no matter if you win or lose.:roll: (Not that I mean you friend was trying to get customers! I just point out that for the rest of people involved, winning or losing is uncertain)

So at best suing will make a lawyer happy and get your money back. You will still not have a working SH4, and any remote chance of UBI fixing it or a future SH5 will dissapear.:88)

[rduffy34]

Sorry guys...I guess I'm just not as upset as some of you about this whole patch thing. I have more important things going on in my life without worrying about some court case for a game patch?:down: :down: :down: :down: :nope:

And yeah! We sue them? No more SH games....Is that truly worth a law suit over a goddamn patch that 9 times out of 10 they will probobly release anyway.

[theluckyone17]

Yeah, this has my vote of "bad idea." Ubi would suffer, the dev's would suffer (no more sub sims through Ubi), and we'd suffer. The lawyers would probably be the only ones that make out.

I don't know if this has been said yet (and I'm trying to keep this from flaming), but anybody who figures SH4 doesn't make the cut are more than free to help out on the Danger From The Deep project (dangerdeep.sourceforge.net). If SH4 is bad enough to frustrate you to the point of wanting to sue, take that frustration and redirect it to a good purpose.

[harrymanback]

I take the point publishers dont make a lot of money from these games, but thats hardly surprising given the average experience you get (joy and skull-cracking frustration in equal measure). I'm amazed PC games sell as much as they do given the hassle involved in playing them.

MaxT - I'm no hardcore sim-head and have never play a sub game before, so I guess i'm your 'main public'. I don't want 100% realism, I want enjoyment. I can say for the record that I wouldn't buy another SH game if it was in this state. For a start, the absence of any tutorial will put off most mainstream gamers (the game 'tutorials' are just mini missions, a tutorial actually teaches you how to do things).
The real problem thats killing my enjoyment is the problem of repeating missions - being asked to patrol of Honshu for the 4th running is starting to bore me. Such an easy bug to fix! Having read through this (excellent) forum I've tracked down Trigger Maru and hopefully that will fix it (once I've figured out how to install it).
Point is though that when the average PC game requires you to go to all this effort just to get a DECENT game experience, its never going to draw in enough people to make big money. Years of effort making teriffic games are spoilt by releasing them a couple of months early.

Oh and Fredbass - 'Who governs and holds a publisher responsible for their work anyway?'
Consumer Rights laws. Every country has them. They say that when you buy a product its supposed to be in 'good working order' or similar. Although thats open to interpretation, in my humble experience a lot of PC games arent, SHIV included

[Chock]

Yawn, I wondered how long we'd have to wait for the 'class action' thread.

Chock :D

[mookiemookie]

Sorry guys...I guess I'm just not as upset as some of you about this whole patch thing. I have more important things going on in my life without worrying about some court case for a game patch?:down: :down: :down: :down: :nope:

And yeah! We sue them? No more SH games....Is that truly worth a law suit over a goddamn patch that 9 times out of 10 they will probobly release anyway.
Agreed 100%. Some people need to get a life. It's a game, for gods sake. Nobody's life, health or safety is at stake. You people need to go outside more. :roll:

[bruschi sauro]

If you want to make sure that Ubisoft never make another sub sim again then go for it. I don't know the validity of a potential legal claim against Ubisoft, but I do know that they don't make much profit from the Silent Hunter series.

Before people start throwing out numbers based on 300,000 sales of Silent Hunter 3 at $49, please understand that $49 is the retail price that you pay and not the price that the stores pay ubisoft in order to sell the product.

My view is that this would be a foolish venture.
OK:ping: is right

[Bilge_Rat]

Best idea ever.

That is, if you want to never have another Silent Hunter again. Ever.

I agree completely, I am a lawyer in RL, if you want Ubisoft to NEVER, EVER make another Sub simulation again, or even drop out of the simulation market altogether, a class action suit is the best way to do it. :roll:

[UnSalted]

"Your honor, my clinets have been caused needless suffering and emotional distress by Ubisoft's failure to satisfy their needs for perfection in gaming. We demand our just recourse."

"What kinds of problems exist with the product, Counselor?"

"Your Honor, we feel that the games realism is a sham, the training provided by Ubisoft is lacking, and the game itself causes frustration."

"So let me get this straight.....people that sit at a PC for hours at a time pretending to be WWII submarine skippers are upset because of a lack of realism?"

"Exactly your Honor".

"OK....and they are upset because the radar doesn't work properly 24/7? And the torpedo tracking doesn't work on the little maps?"

"Yes your Honor, it's a terribly frustrating situation to be in."

"I see....people involved in a role playing game are frustrated. Have you filed a similar suit against Mother Nature by any chance?"

[Egan]

Best idea ever.

That is, if you want to never have another Silent Hunter again. Ever.

100% agreed.


Exactly what I've said regarding the 1.3 patch... UBI targeted SH4 at the main public for a reason... And this lawsuit will be just for the good of this little group of 100%-realism-and-historically-correct SH4 skippers and noone else

Just how I see it

I'm sorry, but this is total nonsense. In what possible way would a lawsuit against one of the 2 companies still manufacturing submarine simulations benefit someone like me who has been playing subsims for years and IS interested in historical realism and history? It seems to me far more likly to 'benefit' those that have more of a passing interest in the genre and wouldn't even notice if Ubi dumped their simulation projects.

[ryanwigginton]

stop fretting... there'll be another patch. :|\\

[Bane]

Something like this may be inevitable. Consumers will only take the 'release now, patch later' business practice for so long before they decide to do something about it. I would hope so anyway.

I know I personally like to have the products I buy work correctly out of the box. If, for example, your new video card didn't work 100% out of the box you'd take it back without question. Just because we're now talking about a piece of software doesn't make any difference imho. It should still work 100% at the time of purchase and we shouldn't have to wait X months after purchase before it does.

[DiveMonkey]

Don't kid yourself you think a lawyer couldn't make a case!
If some women could sue MC D's over being dumb enough to dump hot coffee on herself...well, we all know how that turned out!

The question is "should UBI be sued"
I guess if you want another SH bad enough than no they shouldn't, but if you think the next SH will be half baked, features missing or don't work, than yea! they should be sued. That assumes there are any plans for another SH in the first place.

One thing all can agree on, SHIV should never have been released in the condition it was in! Some of it was so obviously bugged...one wonders if it wasn't intentional! :damn:

[akdavis]

I've heard this so many times before...:roll:

[ryanwigginton]

Come on guys! This is a game we're talking about. It cost £35 max. That's the price of a meal for two at a restaurant. So lets say the food's not what I expected. Do you think I'd sue the restaurant?! No, I'd just choose not to eat there again. Simple. And I heard someone say that they spoke to someone at Ubi and that NO-ONE at Ubi reads these forums... really? Well, lets just say I'd be extremely surprised if that were true.

I think Ubi will realise the error of there ways if they release a SH5 or any similar game/simulation. Sales will be very low on initial release, unless... they allocate more time to there projects and allow the developers to complete.

[harrymanback]

Divemonkey and Bane - well said. I can't figure out why people think that games are somehow different to every other consumer product and its perfectly fine that they shouldn't work out of the box. I'm pretty sure on the back of the packet it doesn't say

*CAUTION- Will require some poor Modders to spend weeks of their own unpaid time to make work. Will also require everyone else to spend several hours reading forums/tracking down mods/installing unofficial 3rd party software.*

Yep. I just checked. Its doesn't say that anywhere.

Obviously none of us will bother lauching a lawsuit. I'll just not buy a Ubisoft game again. Then Ubisoft will say "we have to release it in an unfinished state in because we don't sell enough copies of it". Stupid. You've got a great game - just finish it, put a shiny tutorial on the front end, and WHAMMY, you've got a profitable hit. Of course it will remain niche in its current release state.

[kverdon]

As others have said, a class action lawsuit would most likely ensure that Ubisoft Never did a subsim again. It would also be a lose-lose for us any further patches would be tied up while the suit was being argued. IF the class won the suit, and this could take a year or so...the most likely settlement would be a refund of your money of which 80% would go to the legal fees. So....... if you want to expend a lot of effor to ensure that SHIV is never patched and Ubi never does another subsim, so that you can get your $10 check from Ubi, go for it.

This is not to say that other action against Ubi should be contemplated. If the 1.3 patch does not happen and you are rather disastified with the delivered product, I would first contact Ubisoft and demand a refund. If they refuse I would contact the Better Buisness Bureau in Ubisot USA's hometown of San Francisco and file a complaint there.

Kevin

[AVGWarhawk]

I'll tell you who will win in the end here.....the lawyers.:shifty:

Patch will come, we are at the point were some fixes affect other areas of the game and now these need to be looked at also. It will take some time but in the end I believe we will have a fixed game.

[SteamWake]

Your petty threats will gain no leverage.

Im sorry it is so petty. If you really want your money back go back to the store you bought it from ! Most retailers can be convinced to take the product back with a good enough reason. If you feel your reasons are valid enough in order to sue on behalf of thousands of people they should be valid enough for a retailer to re-imburse you. If your retailer is one of those "oh gee you opened the box we cant take this back" sorts. Dont do buisness with them.

Whats that ? Oh youve been "using" it for months. Well then I guess your stuck with it.

[DiveMonkey]

I'm not arguing for or against, But if UBI don't release another patch...why would anyone want SHV?

I think 1.3 is coming. I also think it should never have been necessary! least not to the extent it's needed just to fix features that should have worked out of the box.

It would also be nice to hear from UBI about 1.3!
Just a "it's coming along and will have it too you soon" would go a long way.

[TDK1044]

Not only would a class action lawsuit pretty much guarantee that Ubisoft never produces a sub sim again, it would also be a shot accross the bow of any other company considering it.

We know that the profit margin on a PC sub sim game is low, and if the only company producing those games just stopped producing them because of possible litigation, does anyone really believe that another company will then seek to develop a brand new sub sim from scratch, requiring a significant investment and a 24 month development schedule?

Please end this nonsense.

[Silence]

IMHO lawsuits are always a bad idea. Just wait like the rest of us and we will have new patches soon. Does anyone have any patience? Seems a sub skipper should be able to wait at least a little while.
james

[pythos]

I work in the aviation field and have seen the effects of lawers and their damnable lawsuits. Little tiny plastic knobs for a non-flight related cabinet costing 100 dollars!!! Why because some lawers long ago sued Cessna aircraft company for some ridiculous amount of money because a similar part failed to work, and did not latch the cabinet.

This is also a result of the overregulation of aviation parts. Now mind you I am not for the free for all, stick on any part you want, that is prevelant on automobiles. But I do think for Non- flight related items in an aircraft there should be no need for regulation, or certification, and any lawer that comes in asking for huge sums of money, should be booted out of the court room.

Right....that being said.

If there were to be a class action lawsuit against ubi, we would never get an improvement to what we have, and possibly the comunity could lose all support for the SH series, possibly even including the closing of this site due to violations of intelectual property copyrights. Remember we are modding what the folks at ubi wrote.

This lawer is just one example of what is ruining our world more than helping it. He is the reason health insurance is unbelievable, and why insurance costs are as crazy as they are. I'm all for suing those that have greiviously harmed someone, or there is a clear case of incompetance, but to sue because a game does not work like you wished, I think is pushing it.:down:

[clayp]

Everyone is right,UBI will will just tell you to stuff it and quit making sub simes etc...:nope:

[swifty]

Worst idea in the world. First what are the damages? UBI would only be liable for the $50 each person spent. And I doubt a jury will award money for pain and suffering for a video game. If you are that displeased with the game call UBI and have them refund your money return the game. Second say good by to any future SH X or Sub Sim for that reason. The Sim market is small market and when profits drop developers will apply their resources to more profitable shooters and adventure games.

I agree a product should be finished when it is released. But if it comes down to have a buggy SH 4 that can be modded in to something amazing vs no game at all I'll take the buggy one.

[harrymanback]

This lawer is just one example of what is ruining our world more than helping it. He is the reason health insurance is unbelievable

Now come on, be fair. The reason your health insurance is unbelievable is because the American electorate keep on electing greedy imbecilies to the White House.

[Sailor Steve]

This lawer is just one example of what is ruining our world more than helping it. He is the reason health insurance is unbelievable

Now come on, be fair. The reason your health insurance is unbelievable is because the American electorate keep on electing greedy imbecilies to the White House.
That comment shows a complete lack of understanding of how the law works. Laws are made by congresses, not presidents; and while the current president has a lot of flaws, health insurance rates have nothing to do with him at all.

[SteamWake]

I was wondering how long it would take.

[Sailor Steve]

Sorry, but I had to respond to that. Well, not had to, actually; it was a deep internal need.:rotfl:

[harrymanback]

Its Friday afternoon and I'm bored so I'll pursue this further.

Wasn't one of Bush's original election pledges to sort out Medicare? Isn't he the most powerful political figure in America (excluding Cheney obviously)? How can your lack of a welfare state have nothing to do with him?

[mookiemookie]

Its Friday afternoon and I'm bored so I'll pursue this further.

Wasn't one of Bush's original election pledges to sort out Medicare? Isn't he the most powerful political figure in America (excluding Cheney obviously)? How can your lack of a welfare state have nothing to do with him?

"Hey! You got your General Topics forum in my Silent Hunter 4 forum!"

"No, you got your Silent Hunter 4 forum in my General Topics forum!"

:rotfl:

[Uber Gruber]

Thanks for all your replies, they make interesting reading.

The general concensus then is that a class action suit would not be a good idea because it would not actually fix the game and may cause UBI to stop making sub sims altogether.

I'd have to say I pretty much agree, though it does leave a bad taste to have to accept a shoddy product in the hope that there will be more. Still, c'est la vie as they say in Stockholm.

Just one more thing though, I was quite suprised by some of the blunt replies by more seasoned skippers in this community. It might be better for the community if you used a more engaging language....just a thought.

Anyway, interesting debate all the same....happy Friday:yep:

[WernerSobe]

that wont work.

But we are custemers and if you want to show ubi that throwing out an unfinished and untested game to the market is not good just stop buying their products. For myself ive learned my lesson. SH3 was badly bugged from the beginning and some parts are still broken. SH4 is even worse and i doubt it will ever be fixed.

So for my part i wont buy another ubisoft product at least for the first 6 months after release. Even if it is SH5 i will wait next time, first i will see how much its broken. Remember our money is our weapon.

Even if it means that ubi will stop making sub sims. Ive played the game for the first week and since then im still waiting ubi to fix it. Ive paid money for one week of frustration i dont want another sub sim like that realy.

[JSF]

Lawsuit.....Pitiful idea...at best.

I sincerely believe that members of UBI frequent this forum to gain a better understanding of whats right and whats no right about thier product. And, I would not be surprised if the very mentioning of litigation by some towards UBI isn't enough for them to cease any improvements they maybe considering or in the middle of completing.

SIDE NOTE: When I purchased this game the people at EB informed me that they (EB) where weighing thier options on whether to continue selling PC based games in the future since the majority of the gamming community is switching to console games for entertaiment. (nternet purchases not with standing)

Now having mentioned this, IMO class action lawsuites against the few companies still producing PC based games might help thier decision process in a way that would negatively impact PC gammers.

[Snowman999]

Not only would a class action lawsuit pretty much guarantee that Ubisoft never produces a sub sim again, it would also be a shot accross the bow of any other company considering it.


Ubisoft was sued for $5 million over use of Starforce in SH3 and other games in a class-action format. Didn't stop SH4 production decisions.

This running about in fear for SH5 is ridiculous. After the SH4 debacle it's very unlikely, but even so the business decision is just that. Anything said here either way isn't more than a fart in a whirlwind.

Google on "class action lawsuit PC games". You'll get thousands of hits. There have been many, MANY class action suits over the years and they continue today.

[U-Bones]

This lawer is just one example of what is ruining our world more than helping it. He is the reason health insurance is unbelievable
Now come on, be fair. The reason your health insurance is unbelievable is because the American electorate keep on electing greedy imbecilies to the White House.
Um, no it's the greedy imbeciles (mostly ex-lawyers) in the House and Senate that pass laws that regulate the crap out of anyone that can't get offshore or go international... and the idiots that keep sending them back.

[Uber Gruber]

I think this article makes very interesting reading on the subject...it was written in 1998 and, well, here we are!

http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/08/19feature2.html

[OlegM]

Mods should lock and delete this nonsense thread like NOW!! :nope:

Even if no new patch ever gets done for SH4 it would still be among the best 3 games released this year (so far at least)

You guys are nuts. :huh:

[DiveMonkey]

Its Friday afternoon and I'm bored so I'll pursue this further.

Wasn't one of Bush's original election pledges to sort out Medicare? Isn't he the most powerful political figure in America (excluding Cheney obviously)? How can your lack of a welfare state have nothing to do with him?

The President of the United States can set the agenda.
It has to be approved by BOTH houses of representatives.

Like the way both houses had to approve going to Iraq!
That's not to say he doesnt have discretionary funds and powers in case of emergency, but any long term commitment has to be approved!

[Uber Gruber]

@OlegM (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=210226)

Oleg, its a discussion forum, we're having a discussion....don't be so silly man, lighten up...its Friday....we always have discussions on Friday....and afternoon tea on tuesdays, with scones :p

[Navigator857]

"Your honor, my clinets have been caused needless suffering and emotional distress by Ubisoft's failure to satisfy their needs for perfection in gaming. We demand our just recourse."

"What kinds of problems exist with the product, Counselor?"

"Your Honor, we feel that the games realism is a sham, the training provided by Ubisoft is lacking, and the game itself causes frustration."

"So let me get this straight.....people that sit at a PC for hours at a time pretending to be WWII submarine skippers are upset because of a lack of realism?"

"Exactly your Honor".

"OK....and they are upset because the radar doesn't work properly 24/7? And the torpedo tracking doesn't work on the little maps?"

"Yes your Honor, it's a terribly frustrating situation to be in."

"I see....people involved in a role playing game are frustrated. Have you filed a similar suit against Mother Nature by any chance?"

Hahahaha, now THAT is awesome. About the only thing in this thread that makes any sense, what-so-ever. Kudos. I would write more but I'm actually going outside at the moment.

[TDK1044]

Closing thread.