View Full Version : English subs ?
KING111
05-10-07, 06:10 AM
I thought you all might find this site interesting
And I am wandering why no one as made or asked
For English subs after all you could start the war in Europe
And then go to the pacific as many English subs did in WW2
http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/britsubs2.html
British subs you mean. (hehehehe) Yes 1 vote from me. :rock:
DeerHunter UK
05-10-07, 07:06 AM
Some of us have already voiced our displeasure about the lack of Royal Navy subs in SH4 both publicly and privately. The Royal Navy made a vital contribution to the war in the Pacific albeit from 1943 onwards (before 1943 only 3 subs operated in the theatre) losing 3 subs in the process. Ideally for a mod to work we'd need the T & S class subs, the Trincomlee port in Sri Lanka made and possibly the supply ships HMS Maidstone and HMS Adamant. Of course if we had the 2 main classes of Royal Navy subs it would mean that the Dutch would also have subs ingame as they were leased S & T class subs. It's a lot of work though to create all this though.
Oddly enough, we kind of already have subs used by the Royal Navy ingame. The US Navy leased Britain 5 S class subs (S-1, S-21, S-22, S-24 & S-29), so maybe a "what if" mod can be made around the existing subs ingame?
Interesting Admiral Christie's diary quote in Australia (1944), about British submarines. From "Silent Victory" :
" (H.M.S.) Clyde, the dirtiest submarine that ever made a dive, now in port after several false starts. I hope this isn't a sample of what we are to experience with the Limeys"..."Clyde now must remove battery for repair. Looks as if she'd have to be generally refitted and then blasted out of port. H.M.S. Porpoise in today. She too arrives unready for her job"..."The submarines of the Royal Navy arriving here are in the most horrible condition. Looks as thought we'll have to rebuilt (them) before they are able to do any work in enemy areas-if they have that in mind."
Man, I would happily pay for a RN subs add-on with a Med and Atlantic campaign - it'll save me from having to try make one myself.
Me too. The Dutch subs as well.
That would be a cool paid add on. Add the RN, Dutch, and a couple IJN subs (maybe a Type B1, and a K6?). The campaign layers (even if they need a major overhaul, IMO) have traffic for all sides extant. You could drop in any country's subs, and set off.
With a patch to sort out the issues SH4 has and it already wowing people on the eye-candy front. A 'mission disk' or more correctly, an expansion would seem to be a no-brainer decision, and one can only hope that UBISOFT decision-makers realise this too.
All the parameters for radar, homing and targeting systems would seem to be readily available from SH3 and SH4, which should mean that apart from a few interface screens, some 3D modelling and a bit of voice acting, UBISOFT could bang something like that out in fairly short order. Japanese subs, British subs, Italian subs - it could be a real cash cow for them!
Cross your fingers people!
I'd be into Royal Navy subs too. From 1944 the British 8th Flotilla operated out of Fremantle under US command, so if we could get the submarine models it would be a simple matter to add these subs to the game. Unfortunately British subs (especially the T-class boats) have a distinctive look so we can't just borrow a US sub, although I guess if we were forced to we could use something as a British S-class boat.
KING111
05-10-07, 11:09 PM
If you look at flight sims upisoft have made
Addon after addon for IL-2 STURMOVIK
So why not for SH3 and SH4:-?:-?:-?:-?
perisher
05-11-07, 01:01 AM
Interesting Admiral Christie's diary quote in Australia (1944), about British submarines. From "Silent Victory" :
" (H.M.S.) Clyde, the dirtiest submarine that ever made a dive, now in port after several false starts. I hope this isn't a sample of what we are to experience with the Limeys"..."Clyde now must remove battery for repair. Looks as if she'd have to be generally refitted and then blasted out of port. H.M.S. Porpoise in today. She too arrives unready for her job"..."The submarines of the Royal Navy arriving here are in the most horrible condition. Looks as thought we'll have to rebuilt (them) before they are able to do any work in enemy areas-if they have that in mind."
It would be interesting to see the Royal Navy's opinion of Admiral Christie.
Yes British subs would be good, although I would prefer to see them in the Med.
Viceman
05-11-07, 01:57 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_M_class_submarine :rotfl:
If you look at flight sims upisoft have made
Addon after addon for IL-2 STURMOVIK
So why not for SH3 and SH4:-?:-?:-?:-?
Well, Oleg Maddox seems obsessed with plane models - that's why IL-2 gets updates. I wish he was as interested in the AI or damage models because those areas are atrocious across the board with the IL-2 series: the AI escape routines have never worked, the damage models are hideously porked, with aircraft that act like they're made of some kind of highly combustible paper, and things like gunfire spray and airframe vibration aren't modelled at all, making gunfire way too effective. Then there's the AA, which is more deadly than a modern laser guided missile. To cap it all off, IL-2 is all hard-coded, so modders like me can't even fix the shabby state of affairs that exists in these games.
In short, I'd rather have SH3 and SH4 with a few patches that address real problems, than a game like IL-2 where numerous patches install planes I never cared about and which solve none of the sim's real problems at all.
Lol, CCIP and I have already talked about this sort of thing in passing. RN boats will be available eventually with a new campaign. I'm positive of that. whether it is a paid and official add-on or a mod I don't know...I've already mucked around with supply drop missions to Malta and so on (using US boats of course,) and harbour recon in the bay of Naples has, I have to say, an even stronger pull on me than doing the same thing in the Phillipines.
SH4 is far more versatile for doing the RN boats in than SH3 was. All we need is lots of German and Italian ships - to start with - plus, oh, everything else.:rotfl:
Anyone wanna make the models? I'll do the campaign! :up::D
KING111
05-11-07, 06:24 AM
Maybe someone could mod
HMS GRAPH for SH3
Its was U570 that was used from 1941 to
1944 by the British after its capture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Graph_%28P715%29
Have to agree with Beery on the IL-2 comments regarding real issues that need fixing with it (and are set up so they can't be by most users). It just goes to show that a game with some poor implementation can still be a huge success.
This means that a lack of user mods apart from a dearth of reskins, has probably not been the reason for the success of the IL-2 series. Mission disks and updated scenarios, including the most recent 'what if?' style, add on have contributed to that in some ways, although I think that their main contribution has been to keep IL-2 in the public eye. It's somewhat ironic in that the recent 'what-if?' mission disk sold well, when you consider the similar scenario which was the basis for Enigma Rising Tide turned a lot of virtual bubbleheads off, then again, ERT did mess up horribly with the online promises.
But the real difference is that a flight sim is probably better geared towards multiplayer than a sub sim. The IL-2 flight model is very good on the whole, and it's this which makes it such a good online experience; you really can defeat a worse online pilot when you are flying an inferior aircaft as long as you use better tactics (I've had people accuse me of hacking because I beat them in this manner, which is somewhat ironic for a game where much of it is impregnably hard-coded). Just as well, since the campaign and interface are largely lacklustre affairs, not helped by some very questionable AI, which makes the AI in SH look like a paragon of ultra-realism in comparison.
The SH series benefits from the fact that it is more mod-capable, but it's also probably the thing that makes the need for official add-ons less pressing in order to preserve its longevity. Nevertheless, I do suspect that official expansions would prove to be a moneyspinner, as long as they are well crafted. One would hope that rather a different scenario from the packaged SH3 add-ons we have seen which often cheekily plagiarise the free mods available will transpire.
I'm personally betting that we'll see driveable Japanese subs in an expansion.
Well, Oleg Maddox seems obsessed with plane models - that's why IL-2 gets updates. I wish he was as interested in the AI or damage models because those areas are atrocious across the board with the IL-2 series: the AI escape routines have never worked, the damage models are hideously porked, with aircraft that act like they're made of some kind of highly combustible paper, and things like gunfire spray and airframe vibration aren't modelled at all, making gunfire way too effective. Then there's the AA, which is more deadly than a modern laser guided missile. To cap it all off, IL-2 is all hard-coded, so modders like me can't even fix the shabby state of affairs that exists in these games.
In short, I'd rather have SH3 and SH4 with a few patches that address real problems, than a game like IL-2 where numerous patches install planes I never cared about and which solve none of the sim's real problems at all.
Shabby in your opinion, the DM is one of the best out there, problem is some AI-only planes, and some of the others have not been updated I don't know what planes you've been flying but some are tough, as they should be and others are easier to knock down. Guess what, like in real life..and ya there are some glitches...even mod packages have glitches and mistakes.
Guns DO have dispersion, and with the latest patch there IS gun shake modelled ... very well I might add (what version do you have).
As for the AA we already talked about it once that to have a realistic number of guns would bring even the latest dual cores to a halt. Anyway if you do a google search for "BA Dart" he made some videos that show how to beat AA..it really isn't that uber...they can't track vertically AND horizontally as well as just one axis.
AI? Well given that AI in SH3 and 4 are so wonderful...:roll: really it is better than it used to be, it is worlds apart from the original and really is there any better? We all get used to AI if we play a lot...and of course it's not a issue if you play online ( the reason it's locked for mods). BTW some of the better static campaigns out there make up for the AI by clever mission design...and there are enough community ones out there not to get bored.
As for planes YOU never cared about, well this was the first sim that brought Eastern Front VVS planes into the sim...and that lets you play from Burma and Manchuria to Murmansk and Normandy with the corresponding plane sets. The fantasy planes everyone gripes about are a minority among the plane set. Ki-27s, Tempests, Wildcats, Yaks, Pe-2s, Me-262s and B-25s are not fantasy.
One last post from me on this issue, because I don't mean to take the thread off track.
To Joea,
My problem is mostly with the AI planes, not the player's. Every time I go out on patrol my AI buddies get their arses handed to them and I'm left with half my squadron missing. I can't train my squadron to be good because they don't last long enough for me to start remembering their names. Although the average WW2 German pilot's lifespan was measured in years I'm looking at a survival rate for my buddies which is measured in days - and mine isn't much better because all gun efficiency and bullet/shell damage data in the game are overmodelled by a factor of at least ten and there is no way for me to adjust it to suit my requirements.
If the bullet and damage models were not overpowered my average lifespan as a pilot should be similar to those of real pilots. It is not. I've yet to survive the entire war even with the tweaks that are available via IL-2 Manager.
Look, we can argue back and forth about whether IL-2 is a good sim or not, but the fact is, my opinion is backed up by research, whereas the IL-2 apologists' arguments are backed up by pure love of the game. One argument is rational, the other is emotional.
A simulation should simulate. IL-2 does not. It is an arcade game masquerading as a combat simulator. Some people may love the game, but that doesn't mean it's a good simulation.
DeerHunter UK
05-11-07, 09:00 AM
Egan, I like the whole Med idea but 1 of the big problems would be modelling the interiors of the S & T Class. As far as I'm aware there are no S or T class subs left anywhere. The only solution I can see is to use 1 of the interiors already ingame, I think the US S class would be best.
Egan, I like the whole Med idea but 1 of the big problems would be modelling the interiors of the S & T Class. As far as I'm aware there are no S or T class subs left anywhere. The only solution I can see is to use 1 of the interiors already ingame, I think the US S class would be best.
Yeah, Interiors are likely to be a problem. In fact, I think that creating brand new playables will be breaking new ground altogether as I am not sure it has been done before.
But if new subs are going to be built then I think new interiors are possible as well. I'm sure there is material out there to allow at least a passible representation of the insides - We could always watch 'We dive at dawn' A few hundred times and pick up whateer we can. :D
Personally I would be willing to trade some of the detail of the interior just for the opportunity to play something like this.
The whole idea of a RN mod is problematic not because of anything being impossible to do but rather the amount of work involved. It would have to be very model based because even allowing for ships taken straight from Sh3 and converted there are so many other things that need to be in there. I would very much like some level of AI subs in there too.
In actual fact we are talking about a total conversion here rather than a mod.
Anyways, it's a long way off in the future - if ever - but it's something that I would love to try once all my current modding projects are finished.
One last post from me on this issue, because I don't mean to take the thread off track.
To Joea,
My problem is mostly with the AI planes, not the player's. Every time I go out on patrol my AI buddies get their arses handed to them and I'm left with half my squadron missing. I can't train my squadron to be good because they don't last long enough for me to start remembering their names. Although the average WW2 German pilot's lifespan was measured in years I'm looking at a survival rate for my buddies which is measured in days - and mine isn't much better because all gun efficiency and bullet/shell damage data in the game are overmodelled by a factor of at least ten and there is no way for me to adjust it to suit my requirements.
If the bullet and damage models were not overpowered my average lifespan as a pilot should be similar to those of real pilots. It is not. I've yet to survive the entire war even with the tweaks that are available via IL-2 Manager.
Look, we can argue back and forth about whether IL-2 is a good sim or not, but the fact is, my opinion is backed up by research, whereas the IL-2 apologists' arguments are backed up by pure love of the game. One argument is rational, the other is emotional.
A simulation should simulate. IL-2 does not. It is an arcade game masquerading as a combat simulator. Some people may love the game, but that doesn't mean it's a good simulation.
Well if the player's planes are ok, that shows that it really is geared more for online play. Tell me what pilots flew the entire war??? Very few...even the German aces were probably in combat less than some virtual players. An arcade game it is not...unless you think CFS3 was a real sim. :know:
Tell me what SH3 or 4 AI is better how? All the tweaks have to do mostly with sensors and changing the crew ratings percentages...which you can do in IL2 as well.
What research are you talking about are you an aeronautical engineer? It's up to the players to create the proper environment. You have not provided any proof or testing that the weapons are overpowered to compare to your "so-called" research. Many users have tested things like gun dispersion to give feedback to the dev back in the day.
You want to see what real pilots think of the sim look here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/3881098535
(Real pilots BTW, especially TX-EcoDragon)
This will sound rude, but since you did not provide any detailed research and after your comments on other SH mods like GWX (and let me note I used RuB before GWX came out) your statements have zero credibility with me, thank goodness there is some choice in modding right now.
Sailor Steve
05-11-07, 10:39 AM
And I am wandering why no one as made or asked
For English subs
I agree with the idea, but would like to point out that people here have been asking for British (and Dutch) subs for at least a year.
And I am wandering why no one as made or asked
For English subs I agree with the idea, but would like to point out that people here have been asking for British (and Dutch) subs for at least a year.
Yeah. me mostly I think, Lol. :D
I remember CB.. made an S class model about a year ago complette with crewmen.
Well if the player's planes are ok, that shows that it really is geared more for online play.
That's like saying that the sim is fine because it's fine for online play. What about all those people who bought the sim who don't play online? I guess they're up a creek without a paddle, 'cos their game is porked and the devs made darned sure that modders can't do a thing about it.
AntEater
05-11-07, 12:02 PM
With a sh....load of 3d editing and such, I think RN subs would be possible.
However, I am not sure wether one could implement the fire control procedures of the RN.
They did not have an american style TDC and the ranging system was different as well.
I think external unreloadable tubes would even be possible game wise.
Problem is, the RN made more sense for SH3 or a potential atlantic conversion of SH4.
The pacific was a side show for RN submarines. Ok, they sank the Ashigara and a few other major vessels but large by large the US submarines had left them without work by the time the RN subs were there in force.
Actually, dutch submarines would be better.
The dutch build dutch submarines were quite similar to U-Boats technically. No suprise as dutch sub building was started by germans to circumvent the Versailles treaty.
When spares (and german torpedoes) ran out, the dutch used british subs.
If I do try to start a mod, I doubt very much whether I would do any PTO operations at all. I would prefer to focus on the Med and Europe. There are a couple of reason why I think Sh4 is better for this than the first one and it is mainly to do with the way the campaign is set up. The fact that the Sh3 campaign was grid based and SH4 is objective based is the big difference. I've already knocked up brief Med Missions just using what is available in the stock game and it's perfect for the sort of patrols one could realisticaly expect. Plenty of deck gun action too! :up:
Aside from that, there is half a world map full of ports that is virtually unused and there are many possibilities.
For TDC, well. I haven't given any thought to it but I would probably keep it there regardless of whether it is realistic or not. But that is a discussion for the future. I seem to remember someone saying that external tubes ought to be possible.
AntEater
05-11-07, 12:52 PM
Every weapon, regardless of gun or torpedo tube, has an "ammo bunker" entry in the .eqp file.
So if you leave that blank, you basically have a non reloadable torpedo tube :)
Every time one of those italian convoys passed me in the med in SH3 GWX, I wished I had a british sub instead of a VII;)
As I said, I have no idea about british subs other than basic technical data and the usual "greatest heroics" stuff.
I sofar have not found a serious operation british sub history, like some kind of british equivalent to "silent victory"
Information is certainly a lot patchier than for either the US or Germany. I think after the war several skippers released memoirs but I would imagine that they would all be well out of print now. The only first hand account I have right here is 'Crash Dive,' about HMS Safari. It's a great book that nicely illustrates the fact that the type of Sub warfare here seems to have been slightly different to the others. The Skipper of the Safari was a Gun specialist and he trained the crew to get from peri depth to first round loaded in twenty seconds...:o
Other than that, 'We come Unseen' by Jim Ring has a couple of chapters about WW2 subs although it is mostly about the cold war. There is more out there but these are the two I have read most recently.
Sailor Steve
05-11-07, 04:22 PM
Peter Padfield's War Beneath The Sea is not overly detailed, but does give a good accounting of British and Japanese submarine operations during the war; Britain's Norwegian and Malta operations especially. As for torpedo fire control, Padfield alleges that they had no TDC at all, and had to go by 'whiz wheel' and pencil and paper calculations alone.
Anyway, I highly recommend the book.
Come to think of it, I'm sure I bought a big book a cople of years ago about RN subs during the war. It was some sort of 'Military Classic' publication..I wonder where it went too? :hmm:
AntEater
05-12-07, 04:14 AM
Paper and Is-was sounds a bit obsolete, as that is WW1 "technology".
On the other hand, the brits tended to fire more torps at individual targets than the germans or even the americans, with notable exceptions of "aces" like Wanklyn of the Upholder. A spread of six was commonplace for most larger targets, and their boats where certainly build for firing a lot of torpedoes at once.
With early T-class boats you could fire a spread of 10!
I always noted that british subs tended to be "ambush" weapons of some sort, lurking at choke points and waiting for targets to pass by. Some boats did agressive hunting, but normally they were more or less static.
Well if the player's planes are ok, that shows that it really is geared more for online play.
That's like saying that the sim is fine because it's fine for online play. What about all those people who bought the sim who don't play online? I guess they're up a creek without a paddle, 'cos their game is porked and the devs made darned sure that modders can't do a thing about it.
Sigh, as usual people pick out what they want, you never read the link I posted or you would not keep saying the game is porked. Have you ever flown a plane? They guys on that thread have be sure.
I happily play offline because modders have fixed what was broken for offline play. The main thing is the built in dynamic campaign generator is very poor, and needs tweaking. Or replacing, with this:
http://www.lowengrin.com./news.php
It is a superior dynamic campaign generator, and this guy made one for CFS2 that was loads better than that built in generator. you can tweak all the factors, and is a wonderful peice of software. You can also make single missions for stand alone or as part of a static campaign with this:
http://www.uberdemon.com/main.html
Static campaigns, well written ones, can be very nice the first time played through, there are so many written that you will not lack for variety, just time. :rotfl:
Still waiting for the research ...
Last word from me...SH3 and 4 out of the box were far more arcade than Il-2, which is scalable.
DeerHunter UK
05-12-07, 05:44 AM
Can you 2 please take your argument about IL-2 to private messaging or go visit UBI's IL-2 forums where you can discuss it length. Personally I love IL-2 and have been in a squad for over 4 and a half years but strangely enough have no urge to discuss the game on a subsim site or especially in a thread about English subs! :down:
Can you 2 please take your argument about IL-2 to private messaging or go visit UBI's IL-2 forums where you can discuss it length. Personally I love IL-2 and have been in a squad for over 4 and a half years but strangely enough have no urge to discuss the game on a subsim site or especially in a thread about English subs! :down:
Sorry mate, I'll STFU now ...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/HMS_Venturer_%28P68%29_%28IWM_FL_004031%29.jpg
HMS Venturer
What classes would you all like to see...
X-craft would be cool too...:oops:
AntEater
05-12-07, 06:42 AM
For Pacific there would be:
T Class
River Class
not sure about S Class being used in the PTO
U/V class definitely didnt have the range for the Pacific.
DeerHunter UK
05-12-07, 07:03 AM
No worries Joea, I like the picture BTW. ;)
If my sources are correct, the V class were a modified U class but were designated V as the Royal Navy were running out of names beginning with U. :know:
There were S class subs in the PTO but didn't arrive in the theatre until early '44. HMS Stonehenge was sunk in March '44 somewhere near Sumatra. HMS Strongbow was depth charged in shallow water and somehow managed to survive, she eventually had to return to Britain for repairs. The other S class subs that I'm aware of in the theatre were, Spiteful, Sea Rover, Surf, Storm, Sturdy, Stoic, Sirdar and Statesman who fired the last torpedo fired from a British sub in WW2.
The only other class of British sub I know of in in the PTO was HMS Porpoise, a minelayer and 1 of the 3 subs lost during the conflict.
I'm beginning to wonder whether we shouldn't ask one of the mods to move this to the modding forum.
AntEater
05-12-07, 09:11 AM
It is purely hypothetical, nobody has yet started work. For that matter, no one has yet done any new 3d object for SH4....
The mod forum is more technical. If someone started serious work on brit subs, mod forum would be the place.
But for Brit subs, we would need:
- Exterior models for subs
- interior models of control room and conning tower. Some british subs (U-Class) did not have a seperate conning tower and were entirely conned from the control room, but I suppose the larger ones had one.
- British sailors with beards and proper uniforms. Or we could take just the ugliest SH4 guys and pass them off as brits :rotfl:(ducks and runs away) but they would still need new uniforms.#
- A brand new voice pack with both southern fairies and northern bastids. And some scotts and whatever other strange people populate that island.
- I wonder wether SH4 actually would support the addition of a new playable nation with new awards, ranks, bases etc or wether one would have to replace the Americans with the British.
ElAurens
05-12-07, 09:24 AM
I'll make one post here about IL2, as I have played the sim from December 2001.
You cannot judge the IL2 series from a totally offline perspective. AI being AI, the only way to judge anything is by playing against another human being. The AI have simplified flight models, and always fly and shoot at the maximum performance level. they are computer controlled after all.
The FMs for the most part are quite good vs. real life aircraft, with some exceptions of course, but you must remember that flight dynamics, if fully and accurately modeled would not be able to run on a PC, so compromises are necessary. The real pilots in my "squad", the BlitzPigs (we prefer to call it a movement, :lol:), have their issues with the aircraft dynamics for sure, but to a man they all say that it is by far the best thing going in terms of capturing flight on the PC. And these are not just guys pottering around in Cessna 172s. We have a former RAF Jaguar pilot, a commercial pilot, and a vintage aircraft aerobatics instructor in our ranks. I will take their word over the armchair experts on the UBI-Zoo forums, or here, any day of the week.
I would also venture to say that the AI in SH4 are every bit as bad as the AI in the IL2 series. And they are easier to defeat because ships are so slow, and hence even more predictable. But I will give credit where it is due, the SH4 offline experience is better than IL2's, by far. But difficult it is not. Only more time consuming.
And both SH4 and IL2, in the form of it's Pacific theater add on/expansion "Pacific Fighters" both suffer from a common problem. To wit:
European developers that do not have even a basic knowledge of the Pacific War, it's combatants, the tactics and equipment used, and it's importance.
Hence the lack of proper Aircraft/Ships/Maps in IL2's Pacific Fighters, and the poorly depicted mission types, submarine performance/range parameters, and amazingly, aircraft utilization in SH4. (take a look at the fighters on the deck of a US carrier in 1944, and you will see Brewster Buffalos. Yeah, these guys know their stuff all right...
:damn:
perisher
05-12-07, 09:46 AM
But for Brit subs, we would need:
- Exterior models for subs
- interior models of control room and conning tower. Some british subs (U-Class) did not have a seperate conning tower and were entirely conned from the control room, but I suppose the larger ones had one.
- British sailors with beards and proper uniforms. Or we could take just the ugliest SH4 guys and pass them off as brits :rotfl:(ducks and runs away) but they would still need new uniforms.#
- A brand new voice pack with both southern fairies and northern bastids. And some scotts and whatever other strange people populate that island.
- I wonder wether SH4 actually would support the addition of a new playable nation with new awards, ranks, bases etc or wether one would have to replace the Americans with the British.
All British subs of this era were conned from the control room, the conning tower was just a vertical tube with a hatch at each end. (The A Class had the captain's cabin in the tower, but they were not ready for service before the war ended.)
Uniforms would not be much of a problem, as Brit submariners didn't bother too much about correct uniform and would dress for comfort., no air con remember. Crews would sometimes "go native". (This was probably the cause of Admiral Christie's remarks about RN subs and their crews).
Someone mentioned X-Craft. They would be nice but the weapons system would be a sod to mod
AntEater
05-12-07, 09:51 AM
I only have a cutaway of a U-Class (in Bagnascos book), and so I assumed the lack of a conning tower was due to the U class' small size.
One thing hard to model would have been the fact that tubes 9 and 10 would have been only able to fire at targets not inside a 15 deg "red and green" sector across the bows or with a proper spread angle. But the Ts sent to east asia most likely had their midship external tubes "turned around" at that time.
Do you know wether british subs had an automated fan shot mode as germans?
I suppose so, given the british doctrine of firing large spreads.
- I wonder wether SH4 actually would support the addition of a new playable nation with new awards, ranks, bases etc or wether one would have to replace the Americans with the British.
Like I said, a total conversion would be the most sensible way to do this. Even a mod on this scale could be easily designed to work with Jscone's mod enabler so there is no real problem with that. As for models, CB.. did a model of an S-class about a year or so ago complete with new crew uniforms so that much is possible to do. Sound packs could be drawn from plenty of old Brit movies and a few of us forum members for anything we can't yank from audio.
Technical systems would, of course, be the hardest to do right. If the interior of one of the smaller US Boats has to be used (even if it is only to start with,) then fair enough. The Control room in 'We Dive at Dawn' (a real S-class as far as I know - they filmed a lot of it up by HMS Forth at Holyloch during the war. Other submariners thought they were a genuine crew until the skipper turned out to be John Mills..) Is not that different from the smaller US boats already in the game.
Adding a new campaign, shipping etc is more than easy enough to do. I've already started on this in fact although it is nothing more than a few notes on Squadron bases,( Holy Loch, Portsmouth, Gibralter, Malta and Beirut to start with,) and probable patrol areas. The Med could shape up to be great fun as could some of the possible historical events.
To be honest I'd be less interested in worrying that it can all be done to 110% historical accuracy than simply getting it done - no one has done a RN sub game so far and, for me, that would outweigh whether eery little system is modelled. At least to start with anyway.
AntEater
05-12-07, 01:25 PM
eery little systems?
What did they do? Scare the italians?
:rotfl:
I think you're right, and also the position keeper and other typical US equipemnt could simply be "put in the backround" by a different GUI.
I'll make one post here about IL2, as I have played the sim from December 2001.
You cannot judge the IL2 series from a totally offline perspective.
I thought I just did, LOL.
Sorry, shutting up now.
perisher
05-16-07, 02:40 AM
Peter Padfield's War Beneath The Sea is not overly detailed, but does give a good accounting of British and Japanese submarine operations during the war; Britain's Norwegian and Malta operations especially. As for torpedo fire control, Padfield alleges that they had no TDC at all, and had to go by 'whiz wheel' and pencil and paper calculations alone.
Anyway, I highly recommend the book.
British subs did get a TDC sometime during the war, certainly by late 1941. Officially it was know as the Torpedo Director or Torpedo Control Calculator, but it was always called the "Fruit Machine" (See Unbroken by Alistair Mars). The main difference between the "Fruit Machine" and the TDC was that the "Fruit Machine" was not linked to the torpedo and all settings had to be passed by telephone and manually set. Despite this the Royal Navy achieved the highest "hits per torpedo fired" of all Allied Submarine Forces (see THE UNDERWATER WAR, 1939-45 by Richard Compton-Hall).
AntEater
05-16-07, 04:06 AM
No suprise as the british had torpedoes that actually exploded :D
And apart from the US, which allied actually fired torpedoes from subs?
- France? There were not much instances when french subs could fire torpedoes at the axis. Also the french had a problem with larger gyro angles, hence the trainable torpedo mounts
- USSR? according to their own history, almost every torpedo hit, of course, but actually their results were abmysal. The USSR also definitely lacked a TDC and other gadgets.
- Poland? Orzel was certainly heroic, but made only a few attacks.
Apart from that, the only other countries of the allies to use submarines in combat were Norway (norwegian manned british subs), Greece and the Netherlands.
I suppose Dutch subs were quite effective in the far east, but there were never many of them.
thefretmaster
05-16-07, 08:18 AM
they could also have the british x-craft trying to blow up the tirpitz
perisher
05-16-07, 08:39 AM
How would you mod side cargos?
How would you mod divers?
DeerHunter UK
05-16-07, 08:41 AM
No suprise as the british had torpedoes that actually exploded :D
The torpedoes were that good, they stayed in active service with the Royal Navy until the mid 80's. Of course it had nothing to do with the fact their replacements in the 1970s were awful to the say the least. ;)
AntEater
05-16-07, 09:12 AM
All the classic straight runners stayed in service till the 1970s.
Even the postwar german navy still used G7A torpedoes (given back to Germany by the RN) on their new U-Boats, as well as british Mk VIIs.
Apparently even the Mk.14 stayed in service that long!
Major Johnson
05-16-07, 06:32 PM
All this talk about new subs and expansion disks is giving me.......dare I say it....A MAJOR JOHNSON!! LOL!!! Yes I say! I'm for it, and I'll pay for it!
Someone mentioned S-boats. SH1 manual says that S-boats were left over from WW1 and in the beginning of the was some were based out of Manila. Were there different S-boats?? But I have to admit I enjoyed starting a campaign in SH1 and being assigned one of those old boats. Now that was a challange! 4 bow tubes and only 1 aft! Does SH4 have those old boats in it?? I bought the game but haven't gotten passed the <cough cough!> training missions with 1.1. Installed 1.2 but things got hectic at work, the dog hurt it's leg, I bought a new car etc. Just never had a chance to get back to it. But all this talk is getting my desils going!! :)
All this talk about new subs and expansion disks is giving me.......dare I say it....A MAJOR JOHNSON!! LOL!!! Yes I say! I'm for it, and I'll pay for it!
Someone mentioned S-boats. SH1 manual says that S-boats were left over from WW1 and in the beginning of the was some were based out of Manila. Were there different S-boats?? But I have to admit I enjoyed starting a campaign in SH1 and being assigned one of those old boats. Now that was a challange! 4 bow tubes and only 1 aft! Does SH4 have those old boats in it?? I bought the game but haven't gotten passed the <cough cough!> training missions with 1.1. Installed 1.2 but things got hectic at work, the dog hurt it's leg, I bought a new car etc. Just never had a chance to get back to it. But all this talk is getting my desils going!! :)
Hi!
The British developed an "S"-class submarine; the U.S. also developed its own "S"-class submarine different from the British "S"-class. The British also had several U.S. "S"-class submarines via Lend-Lease that the British called the "P"-class so they would not be confused with the Britain's own "S"-class.
Both of these submarine classes were developed after World War I, with each class going through several rounds of improvement before World War II began. Both "S"-classes were designed for short-range coastal defense operations: the U.S. version for operation off the U.S. east and west coasts, and the British version for operation in northwest Europe and the Mediterranean Sea.
Pablo
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