English subs ?

KING111 · 05-10-07, 06:10 AM

I thought you all might find this site interesting
And I am wandering why no one as made or asked
For English subs after all you could start the war in Europe
And then go to the pacific as many English subs did in WW2

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/britsubs2.html

joea · 05-10-07, 06:40 AM

British subs you mean. (hehehehe) Yes 1 vote from me.

DeerHunter UK · 05-10-07, 07:06 AM

Some of us have already voiced our displeasure about the lack of Royal Navy subs in SH4 both publicly and privately. The Royal Navy made a vital contribution to the war in the Pacific albeit from 1943 onwards (before 1943 only 3 subs operated in the theatre) losing 3 subs in the process. Ideally for a mod to work we'd need the T & S class subs, the Trincomlee port in Sri Lanka made and possibly the supply ships HMS Maidstone and HMS Adamant. Of course if we had the 2 main classes of Royal Navy subs it would mean that the Dutch would also have subs ingame as they were leased S & T class subs. It's a lot of work though to create all this though.
Oddly enough, we kind of already have subs used by the Royal Navy ingame. The US Navy leased Britain 5 S class subs (S-1, S-21, S-22, S-24 & S-29), so maybe a "what if" mod can be made around the existing subs ingame?

Krupp · 05-10-07, 08:33 AM

Interesting Admiral Christie's diary quote in Australia (1944), about British submarines. From "Silent Victory" :

" (H.M.S.) Clyde, the dirtiest submarine that ever made a dive, now in port after several false starts. I hope this isn't a sample of what we are to experience with the Limeys"..."Clyde now must remove battery for repair. Looks as if she'd have to be generally refitted and then blasted out of port. H.M.S. Porpoise in today. She too arrives unready for her job"..."The submarines of the Royal Navy arriving here are in the most horrible condition. Looks as thought we'll have to rebuilt (them) before they are able to do any work in enemy areas-if they have that in mind."

Egan · 05-10-07, 04:51 PM

Man, I would happily pay for a RN subs add-on with a Med and Atlantic campaign - it'll save me from having to try make one myself.

tater · 05-10-07, 05:05 PM

Me too. The Dutch subs as well.

That would be a cool paid add on. Add the RN, Dutch, and a couple IJN subs (maybe a Type B1, and a K6?). The campaign layers (even if they need a major overhaul, IMO) have traffic for all sides extant. You could drop in any country's subs, and set off.

perisher · 05-11-07, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krupp

Interesting Admiral Christie's diary quote in Australia (1944), about British submarines. From "Silent Victory" :

" (H.M.S.) Clyde, the dirtiest submarine that ever made a dive, now in port after several false starts. I hope this isn't a sample of what we are to experience with the Limeys"..."Clyde now must remove battery for repair. Looks as if she'd have to be generally refitted and then blasted out of port. H.M.S. Porpoise in today. She too arrives unready for her job"..."The submarines of the Royal Navy arriving here are in the most horrible condition. Looks as thought we'll have to rebuilt (them) before they are able to do any work in enemy areas-if they have that in mind."

It would be interesting to see the Royal Navy's opinion of Admiral Christie.

Yes British subs would be good, although I would prefer to see them in the Med.

Viceman · 05-11-07, 01:57 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_M_class_submarine :rotfl:

KING111 · 05-10-07, 11:09 PM

If you look at flight sims upisoft have made
Addon after addon for IL-2 STURMOVIK
So why not for SH3 and SH4

Beery · 05-11-07, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KING111

If you look at flight sims upisoft have made
Addon after addon for IL-2 STURMOVIK
So why not for SH3 and SH4

Well, Oleg Maddox seems obsessed with plane models - that's why IL-2 gets updates. I wish he was as interested in the AI or damage models because those areas are atrocious across the board with the IL-2 series: the AI escape routines have never worked, the damage models are hideously porked, with aircraft that act like they're made of some kind of highly combustible paper, and things like gunfire spray and airframe vibration aren't modelled at all, making gunfire way too effective. Then there's the AA, which is more deadly than a modern laser guided missile. To cap it all off, IL-2 is all hard-coded, so modders like me can't even fix the shabby state of affairs that exists in these games.

In short, I'd rather have SH3 and SH4 with a few patches that address real problems, than a game like IL-2 where numerous patches install planes I never cared about and which solve none of the sim's real problems at all.

Egan · 05-11-07, 05:45 AM

Lol, CCIP and I have already talked about this sort of thing in passing. RN boats will be available eventually with a new campaign. I'm positive of that. whether it is a paid and official add-on or a mod I don't know...I've already mucked around with supply drop missions to Malta and so on (using US boats of course,) and harbour recon in the bay of Naples has, I have to say, an even stronger pull on me than doing the same thing in the Phillipines.

SH4 is far more versatile for doing the RN boats in than SH3 was. All we need is lots of German and Italian ships - to start with - plus, oh, everything else.:rotfl:

Anyone wanna make the models? I'll do the campaign!

joea · 05-11-07, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beery

Well, Oleg Maddox seems obsessed with plane models - that's why IL-2 gets updates. I wish he was as interested in the AI or damage models because those areas are atrocious across the board with the IL-2 series: the AI escape routines have never worked, the damage models are hideously porked, with aircraft that act like they're made of some kind of highly combustible paper, and things like gunfire spray and airframe vibration aren't modelled at all, making gunfire way too effective. Then there's the AA, which is more deadly than a modern laser guided missile. To cap it all off, IL-2 is all hard-coded, so modders like me can't even fix the shabby state of affairs that exists in these games.

In short, I'd rather have SH3 and SH4 with a few patches that address real problems, than a game like IL-2 where numerous patches install planes I never cared about and which solve none of the sim's real problems at all.

Shabby in your opinion, the DM is one of the best out there, problem is some AI-only planes, and some of the others have not been updated I don't know what planes you've been flying but some are tough, as they should be and others are easier to knock down. Guess what, like in real life..and ya there are some glitches...even mod packages have glitches and mistakes.

Guns DO have dispersion, and with the latest patch there IS gun shake modelled ... very well I might add (what version do you have).

As for the AA we already talked about it once that to have a realistic number of guns would bring even the latest dual cores to a halt. Anyway if you do a google search for "BA Dart" he made some videos that show how to beat AA..it really isn't that uber...they can't track vertically AND horizontally as well as just one axis.

AI? Well given that AI in SH3 and 4 are so wonderful...

really it is better than it used to be, it is worlds apart from the original and really is there any better? We all get used to AI if we play a lot...and of course it's not a issue if you play online ( the reason it's locked for mods). BTW some of the better static campaigns out there make up for the AI by clever mission design...and there are enough community ones out there not to get bored.

As for planes YOU never cared about, well this was the first sim that brought Eastern Front VVS planes into the sim...and that lets you play from Burma and Manchuria to Murmansk and Normandy with the corresponding plane sets. The fantasy planes everyone gripes about are a minority among the plane set. Ki-27s, Tempests, Wildcats, Yaks, Pe-2s, Me-262s and B-25s are not fantasy.

Beery · 05-11-07, 08:40 AM

One last post from me on this issue, because I don't mean to take the thread off track.

To Joea,

My problem is mostly with the AI planes, not the player's. Every time I go out on patrol my AI buddies get their arses handed to them and I'm left with half my squadron missing. I can't train my squadron to be good because they don't last long enough for me to start remembering their names. Although the average WW2 German pilot's lifespan was measured in years I'm looking at a survival rate for my buddies which is measured in days - and mine isn't much better because all gun efficiency and bullet/shell damage data in the game are overmodelled by a factor of at least ten and there is no way for me to adjust it to suit my requirements.

If the bullet and damage models were not overpowered my average lifespan as a pilot should be similar to those of real pilots. It is not. I've yet to survive the entire war even with the tweaks that are available via IL-2 Manager.

Look, we can argue back and forth about whether IL-2 is a good sim or not, but the fact is, my opinion is backed up by research, whereas the IL-2 apologists' arguments are backed up by pure love of the game. One argument is rational, the other is emotional.

A simulation should simulate. IL-2 does not. It is an arcade game masquerading as a combat simulator. Some people may love the game, but that doesn't mean it's a good simulation.

DeerHunter UK · 05-11-07, 09:00 AM

Egan, I like the whole Med idea but 1 of the big problems would be modelling the interiors of the S & T Class. As far as I'm aware there are no S or T class subs left anywhere. The only solution I can see is to use 1 of the interiors already ingame, I think the US S class would be best.

joea · 05-11-07, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beery

One last post from me on this issue, because I don't mean to take the thread off track.

To Joea,

My problem is mostly with the AI planes, not the player's. Every time I go out on patrol my AI buddies get their arses handed to them and I'm left with half my squadron missing. I can't train my squadron to be good because they don't last long enough for me to start remembering their names. Although the average WW2 German pilot's lifespan was measured in years I'm looking at a survival rate for my buddies which is measured in days - and mine isn't much better because all gun efficiency and bullet/shell damage data in the game are overmodelled by a factor of at least ten and there is no way for me to adjust it to suit my requirements.

If the bullet and damage models were not overpowered my average lifespan as a pilot should be similar to those of real pilots. It is not. I've yet to survive the entire war even with the tweaks that are available via IL-2 Manager.

Look, we can argue back and forth about whether IL-2 is a good sim or not, but the fact is, my opinion is backed up by research, whereas the IL-2 apologists' arguments are backed up by pure love of the game. One argument is rational, the other is emotional.

A simulation should simulate. IL-2 does not. It is an arcade game masquerading as a combat simulator. Some people may love the game, but that doesn't mean it's a good simulation.

Well if the player's planes are ok, that shows that it really is geared more for online play. Tell me what pilots flew the entire war??? Very few...even the German aces were probably in combat less than some virtual players. An arcade game it is not...unless you think CFS3 was a real sim.

Tell me what SH3 or 4 AI is better how? All the tweaks have to do mostly with sensors and changing the crew ratings percentages...which you can do in IL2 as well.

What research are you talking about are you an aeronautical engineer? It's up to the players to create the proper environment. You have not provided any proof or testing that the weapons are overpowered to compare to your "so-called" research. Many users have tested things like gun dispersion to give feedback to the dev back in the day.

You want to see what real pilots think of the sim look here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...3/m/3881098535

(Real pilots BTW, especially TX-EcoDragon)

This will sound rude, but since you did not provide any detailed research and after your comments on other SH mods like GWX (and let me note I used RuB before GWX came out) your statements have zero credibility with me, thank goodness there is some choice in modding right now.

05-10-07, 06:10 AM	#1
KING111 Planesman Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 181 Downloads: 245 Uploads: 0	English subs ? I thought you all might find this site interesting And I am wandering why no one as made or asked For English subs after all you could start the war in Europe And then go to the pacific as many English subs did in WW2 http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/britsubs2.html Last edited by KING111; 05-11-07 at 06:39 AM.

05-10-07, 08:33 AM	#4
Krupp Weps Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 351 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Interesting Admiral Christie's diary quote in Australia (1944), about British submarines. From "Silent Victory" : " (H.M.S.) Clyde, the dirtiest submarine that ever made a dive, now in port after several false starts. I hope this isn't a sample of what we are to experience with the Limeys"..."Clyde now must remove battery for repair. Looks as if she'd have to be generally refitted and then blasted out of port. H.M.S. Porpoise in today. She too arrives unready for her job"..."The submarines of the Royal Navy arriving here are in the most horrible condition. Looks as thought we'll have to rebuilt (them) before they are able to do any work in enemy areas-if they have that in mind." __________________ "Gentlemen, we have no choice. Total engagement. Die with dignity."

05-11-07, 01:57 AM	#8
Viceman Swabbie Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_M_class_submarine :rotfl: __________________ http://www.vicegaming.net little content for your games

05-11-07, 08:40 AM	#13
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	One last post from me on this issue, because I don't mean to take the thread off track. To Joea, My problem is mostly with the AI planes, not the player's. Every time I go out on patrol my AI buddies get their arses handed to them and I'm left with half my squadron missing. I can't train my squadron to be good because they don't last long enough for me to start remembering their names. Although the average WW2 German pilot's lifespan was measured in years I'm looking at a survival rate for my buddies which is measured in days - and mine isn't much better because all gun efficiency and bullet/shell damage data in the game are overmodelled by a factor of at least ten and there is no way for me to adjust it to suit my requirements. If the bullet and damage models were not overpowered my average lifespan as a pilot should be similar to those of real pilots. It is not. I've yet to survive the entire war even with the tweaks that are available via IL-2 Manager. Look, we can argue back and forth about whether IL-2 is a good sim or not, but the fact is, my opinion is backed up by research, whereas the IL-2 apologists' arguments are backed up by pure love of the game. One argument is rational, the other is emotional. A simulation should simulate. IL-2 does not. It is an arcade game masquerading as a combat simulator. Some people may love the game, but that doesn't mean it's a good simulation. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen.

05-10-07, 06:40 AM	#2
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	British subs you mean. (hehehehe) Yes 1 vote from me.

05-10-07, 07:06 AM	#3
DeerHunter UK Machinist's Mate Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 124 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	Some of us have already voiced our displeasure about the lack of Royal Navy subs in SH4 both publicly and privately. The Royal Navy made a vital contribution to the war in the Pacific albeit from 1943 onwards (before 1943 only 3 subs operated in the theatre) losing 3 subs in the process. Ideally for a mod to work we'd need the T & S class subs, the Trincomlee port in Sri Lanka made and possibly the supply ships HMS Maidstone and HMS Adamant. Of course if we had the 2 main classes of Royal Navy subs it would mean that the Dutch would also have subs ingame as they were leased S & T class subs. It's a lot of work though to create all this though. Oddly enough, we kind of already have subs used by the Royal Navy ingame. The US Navy leased Britain 5 S class subs (S-1, S-21, S-22, S-24 & S-29), so maybe a "what if" mod can be made around the existing subs ingame?

05-10-07, 04:51 PM	#5
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Man, I would happily pay for a RN subs add-on with a Med and Atlantic campaign - it'll save me from having to try make one myself.

05-10-07, 05:05 PM	#6
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Me too. The Dutch subs as well. That would be a cool paid add on. Add the RN, Dutch, and a couple IJN subs (maybe a Type B1, and a K6?). The campaign layers (even if they need a major overhaul, IMO) have traffic for all sides extant. You could drop in any country's subs, and set off.

05-10-07, 11:09 PM	#9
KING111 Planesman Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 181 Downloads: 245 Uploads: 0	If you look at flight sims upisoft have made Addon after addon for IL-2 STURMOVIK So why not for SH3 and SH4

05-11-07, 05:45 AM	#11
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Lol, CCIP and I have already talked about this sort of thing in passing. RN boats will be available eventually with a new campaign. I'm positive of that. whether it is a paid and official add-on or a mod I don't know...I've already mucked around with supply drop missions to Malta and so on (using US boats of course,) and harbour recon in the bay of Naples has, I have to say, an even stronger pull on me than doing the same thing in the Phillipines. SH4 is far more versatile for doing the RN boats in than SH3 was. All we need is lots of German and Italian ships - to start with - plus, oh, everything else.:rotfl: Anyone wanna make the models? I'll do the campaign!

05-11-07, 09:00 AM	#14
DeerHunter UK Machinist's Mate Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 124 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	Egan, I like the whole Med idea but 1 of the big problems would be modelling the interiors of the S & T Class. As far as I'm aware there are no S or T class subs left anywhere. The only solution I can see is to use 1 of the interiors already ingame, I think the US S class would be best.