[REL] Recog Manual-Trading Speed for Length

[Brigs]

Since starting to use aspect ratio for targeting (thanks again Hitman), I've found that I don't really care what an enemy ship's maximum speed is.....I only care how fast it's going when we actually cross paths. And, while setting up a firing solution, I'll be determining the current speed for myself anyway.

What is important to me, however, is the ship's length. So, I traded off ship maximum speed for ship length on the in-game recognition manual pages.

Here's an example:
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5578/recogmanuallengthgl5.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=recogmanuallengthgl5.jpg)


It would have been better to be able to 'add' the length to the existing info pages instead of 'replacing' the speed. But, this comes in very handy for me.

My biggest concern was screwing up the speed in the sea/ship/config files, but after a few patrols with this new info available, all appears to be well.

Seems like the sim gets the actual speed info from the sim files, and doesn't really care what values are in the config files. I'm new to this, so maybe one of the 'old salts' can verify that for me ?

If anyone else is interested in this, you can get it here:
http://files.filefront.com/RecogManualShipLengthrar/;7462526;/fileinfo.html


Brigs

[don1reed]

I believe you should upload it to one of the "Down Loading" sources, Brigs. I for one, noted the absence of LOA in the game's recon man.

[Brigs]

Good idea Don. Never thought about it.....guess I figured it would just magically appear on people's hard drives if they wanted it. The 'new guy' syndrome. :doh:

Thanks

[don1reed]

Excellent. BTW, welcome aboard, great to make your acquaintence.:up:

[Bilge_Rat]

Good Idea Brigs, I also use Hitman's AOB method and having to look up the ship's length on the paper recognition manual is a pain. I will give your mod a try.

[CaptainHunter]

I'll give it a go myself.

Thanks

[CaptainHunter]

Installed it with JSGME but couldn't get it to work:cry:

[Jungman]

:yep: Great idea! Nice way to figure the AOB using length.

You may have to install manually, not JSGME.

Did anyone figure out what the true spacing of the periscope is?? Degree per spacing.

I thought people concluded that the ingame distance are really in meters instead of yards throwing off the range calculation by the ratio of yard to meter ~ 1.09

Does one have to worry about this? I guess the ratio is the import part, but if the range is off, it could affect the calculation.

[Bilge_Rat]

I believe the range is meters since all my calculations are off about 10% when I use Imperial, however as long as you don't shoot over about 1,000 yds, you can still get close to 100% hit ratio.

I use Hitman's guide to determine AOB and the 3 minute rule to determine the estimated speed. I then refine the actual speed using the PK to get a final solution.

My hit ratio has gone from about 1 in 3 to 90+ % in manual TDC.

However I noticed all my initial speed estimates using the three minute rule were about 10-20% too high, so I think the range is off on the NAV map also.

[Brigs]

CaptainHunter,

Hmmm, only thing I can think of is this.....there are two 'RecogManualShipLength'
directories (folders) in the download. The first folder contains the readme file and also another folder called 'RecogManualShipLength'. The second folder is the one that needs to be copied into your SH4/mod folder. Hope that helps. If not, let me know.


Hi Jungman,

Thanks. Yeah, I like that the scope markings are actually functional now by using the length to figure AOB.

I thought people concluded that the ingame distance are really in meters instead of yards throwing off the range calculation by the ratio of yard to meter ~ 1.09

The ships length info in the files are also in meters, but I converted them so the recognition manual now shows the ship length in feet.


Thanks Bilge_Rat. Yep, I like the paper manual because that's what they used on the boats.....on the other hand, having to fumble around for the flashlight every time we go to battle stations kind of takes me 'out of the moment'.....a two sided coin.


Thanks Don,
The pleasure is all mine. I like it here.....it's all smelly and cramped, just like my sub. :D

[CaptainHunter]

Brigs,

I extracted it to my MOD folder and it showed up in JSGME so I enabled it but still not working, I'm am running a lot of other mods tho.

Thanks

[U-Bones]

The reason folks are having a hard time with this is it is not properly set up for JSGME

It has this path in the rar file
RecogManualShipLength\RecogManualShipLength\Data\f iles and such
It needs to have
RecogManualShipLength\Data\files and such

Also Brigs, reading your readme.txt, you state
"If you have the JP Ship Dimension mod installed (thanks Krupp), JSGME will give you conflict messages....it's ok to install over top of that mod. "

Unless you used his MOD as your starting point this is not true. You will overwrite his ship.cfg files that contain "draft, widht and lenght dimensions. Plus some displacements and speeds" with your cfg files that have presumably only length fixes. So basically, unless you used his mod as a basis for further correcting length, your mod completely wipes his cfg files out, and further probably make them no longer match the sim file corrections he made, and that are still in effect.

If someone wants to use your idea, but base it on Krupps's data, all they need is your menu.txt tweaks. Pretty sweet and simple. If you and he have major differences and cant agree on lengths, so be it, but maybe you two should hash out the data since you are both interested and motivated. Between you, there is good data, plus an optional menu.txt that allows players choice of two styles of RecManuals.

As it stands though, the mods are not compatible. You should repackage, update the readme to reflect this, and correct the path issue for JSGME.

Now if you did in fact use his data, pardon me and brilliant job, except you should explicitly credit the use.

And welcome, this is a really good idea, and you did put a lot of work into it. Hats off.

[Hitman]

The really nice thing of the Aspect Ratio method is that it works equally weel with yards or metres, feet or decimetres....:up: So I would suggest that you modify the manual to actually replace the mast height (Unless it breaks the stadimeter) with the aspect ratio. So you can have the aspect ratio directly for AOB, and the length for the speed measurement. If that fails, could the AR be added behind the lentgh in the same line? F.e. in the Mogami example, you would read something like this:

Length = 656 ft (AR 5.77)

[Bilge_Rat]

That's a good suggestion by Hitman, having the AOR on screen would simplify matters, I hate having to pause the game to do MATH calculations...:damn: .


On the whole imperial/meters feature/bug, I still have problems figuring it out the correct answer, if the game reads yards as meters and all distances are off about 10%, the PK should also give us a speed which is off since it is based on the wrong distance (elementary TMA 101), so wrong distance/speed, when shooting at a target 100-150 yds long which is 1,000+ yds away should result in a large percentage of misses.

As noted above however, I am now getting 90-100% hit ratio at 1,000 yds when the correct range/AOB/speed are fed into the PK, so something does not add up.

The manual states that the measurements on the NAV map have a "fudge" factor built in to simulate RL 1940's conditions, I am wondering if this might not be the answer.

[Brigs]

Hi U-Bones,

Your points are well taken.

Krupp's JP Ship Dimension Mod data was, in fact, used as the 'base' data for this. I did have it installed while making the changes, so there's no problem with overwriting those config files.

I did put a thanks in the readme file but, after reading it again, you're right.....it could have been more explicit. The readme has been updated.....please check it out to make sure the wording does the proper job of giving credits.

I wasn't sure where to put the readme (hence two folders). But, if everyone is used to seeing only one folder which includes both the mod and the readme, then that's no problem. The download file has been updated, and now contains a single 'mod' folder (which includes the readme).

If I missed anything else, let me know. Appreciate your input.....keep me straight until I get my sea legs here. :)



Hi Hitman,

Excellent idea. I'll play around a little bit with the files and see if I can do that.

I also wondered if the sinus scale in your tutorial could somehow be added to the tools on the Nav map ? I don't know anything about graphics stuff, so don't know if it's even possible.

[U-Bones]

Hi U-Bones,
Krupp's JP Ship Dimension Mod data was, in fact, used as the 'base' data for this. I did have it installed while making the changes, so there's no problem with overwriting those config files.


Beautiful ! It was not clear to me in the original readme that his data was being used. Thanks for the clarification, and for the JSGME repackage.

Here is a point to consider however... if your mod is used standalone, then the *.sim files he modified to match the cfg files are missing...

[Hitman]

I also wondered if the sinus scale in your tutorial could somehow be added to the tools on the Nav map ? I don't know anything about graphics stuff, so don't know if it's even possible.

I *think* it *could" eventually be added to the attack map in the same way the nomograph was added to the normal map in mods like RFB:hmm: Since the sinus scale is a read-only device and you do not need to plot lines across, it could well fit there. Another alternative would be to modify the cover of the manual, or if the size allows it, add it in the lower part of the default background page so it is visible in all targets (The rec. manual uses only one archive as background, that is also the one darkened in some mods).

[Fingle Bill]

Seems like the sim gets the actual speed info from the sim files, and doesn't really care what values are in the config files.
Hi Brigs

Great mod:up:

Just noticed one oddity in the museum after applying your mod. Looks like the speed of the ships in the museum is taken from the config files, causing some of the larger ships to plough into the sea due to their new super speeds.:rotfl: The new length is being taken as the speed of the ship. Submersible fleet carriers ftw :rock:Definitely livens up the museum.

Fingle

[Brigs]

Welcome aboard, Fingle Bill.

Good catch. Looks more like boat races than a museum now. :)

I'm glad you found that. It's been bugging me why the speed values would be in the config files, but not apparently used anywhere. At least now we know. I never go to the museum, so never would have seen that.

Let me ask you.....assuming the museum ships can't be slowed down, and given the choice between having either ship's length info in the logbook or a correctly functioning museum, which would you prefer ?

For now, I'll just make a note about that in the readme so people at least know what to expect.

Thanks

[Fingle Bill]

Welcome aboard, Fingle Bill.

Thank you Brigs. Im a long time lurker on these forums since SHII, thought it was about time to become a captain:arrgh!:



Let me ask you.....assuming the museum ships can't be slowed down, and given the choice between having either ship's length info in the logbook or a correctly functioning museum, which would you prefer ?
To be honest, i cant remember why i was in the museum in the first place, but would definitely prefer the Recog manual tweaks over the museum. Adding Hitman's AOB sinus scale into the manual would just be the icing on the cake.

[FLank_Sinatra]

If I use this will it tell me the ship length in meters? by using the ship length / by time to cross the scope x 2 I get the speed in knots ex:

135meter length/53 seconds = 2.5 Meters per second x 2 = 5 knots.


How can I do this with feet instead of meters if it doesn't work?

[NefariousKoel]

If I use this will it tell me the ship length in meters? by using the ship length / by time to cross the scope x 2 I get the speed in knots ex:

135meter length/53 seconds = 2.5 Meters per second x 2 = 5 knots.


How can I do this with feet instead of meters if it doesn't work?
If you're using the Imperial system with Feet... here's what I use:

Divide as per usual... length in Feet/time.

Then multiply by 0.6 - that will give you approximate knots. As always either be heading right at them or not moving for best results.

[don1reed]

Flank, the measurements you're using are "rough" guesstimates.

the real formulae are these:

Metric:

Meter / secs. x 1.96 (not 2) = speed in knots.
1852 m = 1 nm
3600 sec = 1 hr., then, 1852/3600 = .51, then 1/.51 = 1.96
Imperial:

Yards / secs. x 1.78 = speed in knots.
2026 yds. = 1 nm
3600 sec = 1 hr, therefore 2026/3600 = .56, then 1/.56 = 1.78

in both cases, 1.96 or 1.78 are usually used because its time-honored thought that multiplication is easier than division.

[Brigs]

If I use this will it tell me the ship length in meters?

No, the logbook will show ship length in feet.

If using the scope to estimate speed, I do exactly what NefariousKoel said.
As don1reed pointed out, though, the key word here is 'estimate'. The calculated estimates aren't exact. They are, however, plenty good enough to get the job done.



So I would suggest that you modify the manual to actually replace the mast height (Unless it breaks the stadimeter) with the aspect ratio. So you can have the aspect ratio directly for AOB, and the length for the speed measurement.
If that fails, could the AR be added behind the lentgh in the same line?

Didn't have a lot of time last week, but I did check this out. Yep, replacing the mast height definitely breaks the stadimeter.

I'm certain the AR can get added, just not in the same way that I replaced the speed. Right now I'm taking some time to study these files and figure out how all this stuff fits together. Definitely want to add the A/R, plus had a couple more ideas about things for the logbook. Hopefully, there will be some progress soon. :)

[U-Bones]

So I would suggest that you modify the manual to actually replace the mast height (Unless it breaks the stadimeter) with the aspect ratio. So you can have the aspect ratio directly for AOB, and the length for the speed measurement.
If that fails, could the AR be added behind the lentgh in the same line?
Didn't have a lot of time last week, but I did check this out. Yep, replacing the mast height definitely breaks the stadimeter.

I'm certain the AR can get added, just not in the same way that I replaced the speed. Right now I'm taking some time to study these files and figure out how all this stuff fits together. Definitely want to add the A/R, plus had a couple more ideas about things for the logbook. Hopefully, there will be some progress soon. :)
If you replace the mast height in both the cfg and the sim files, nothing is broken. I tried to point this out earlier. This mod should only be used on top of Krupp's JP Ship Dimension Mod.

Here is a point to consider however... if your mod is used standalone, then the *.sim files he modified to match the cfg files are missing...

cfg and sim files need to agree on data they have in common.

[Julius Caesar]

Warning.
If you do trade speed with length, you DO change ships speed (try this - change it to 500, open mission editor and you will see that you can set speed of that ship up to 500 kts! (speed max=500 kts). Now, that could be the problem if game has scripted (go to max speed) instead of (go to speed=32)...

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/goldfinger35/untitled-2.jpg


I have tried to add length and aspect ratio to rec. manual with 1024_768.ini file.. no luck. I can't add new Item ID...

Insted, I have found temp solution :cool:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/goldfinger35/SH4Img24-5-2007_0.jpg

[Hitman]

Good idea placing it behind the name of the ship. Does it actually show later in your list of sinkings also? That's why I fear:hmm:

[Julius Caesar]

yes, but I don't mind :|\\
imo It's better than having to look at printed data...
P.S. It would be best to add it to rec. manual as extra data (in 1024_768.ini file).
Anyone know how to link new "Item ID" for length with data in shipname.cfg?
I have done everything else that is needed in 1024_768.ini and menu.txt files...

[MudMarine]

Skippers,
I know we are looking for exact range but is it realistic? I made a copy of Submarine Torpedo Manual, Dated May 1950.

From Page 31 of Manual, section 5-7
(h) The following points should be kept in mind in height determinations:

(1) Masthead heights may be purposely altered by enemy to cause inaccuracies in periscope range.

(2) Tops of the mast may be camouflaged in such manner as to be invisible under average visibility conditions at any except short range.

(3) Funnel height is normally sufficient to insure thats smoke which is blown in direction of the bridge by a tail wind will pass well over the bridge.

(4) Coal burners require taller funnels to insure adequate draft.

(5) Funnels of modern vessels having forced draft do not require as tall a funnel as older vessels without forced draft.

(6) Diesel propelled ships require no draft. Funnels are normally short, are not required, and generally have such dimenstions as to provide a good appearance on the ship.

Regardless of the methods employed by individual Approach Officer, skill in estimating masthead heights, and the ability of to obtain accurate ranges can be acquired and maintained onlyby constant practice. Even when radar ranges are available during an approach the Approach Officer should also obtain telemeter ranges as a means of improving and maintaining his skill.


From reading this I find that those sub skippers in WWII had a problem with range determination also. It was only with the advent of good radar and the telemeter that accurate ranges could be determined in 1950. So fine tuning things that accuracy for this simulation realy making it 100% reallistic.

[Brigs]

Well, here's what I've got so far.


http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/919/logtest1us7.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=logtest1us7.jpg)


Reworked stuff to keep as much good info in the logbook as possible, while not screwing up any data anywhere else. The zeros obviously need to be replaced with valid numbers, and that's my sticky point right now.....haven't yet figured out how to move the additional data from the files to the screen.

I know data can be 'changed' in the sim files, but can data also be 'added' to the .sim files ? If so, can someone point me to something that might show 'how' it can be added ?

Thanks

[Julius Caesar]

Yeah, I was stuck there, too.
You have to add line in menu.txt and in shipname.cfg files...
But it still does not read the data from the .cfg file.
I guess it has to be linked using item id?

[Brigs]

But it still does not read the data from the .cfg file.
I guess it has to be linked using item id?

I believe the itemid is only used to track the positioning of items being displayed...it doesn't provide a link to variable data within other files. Just in case you haven't seen it, there's a very good tutorial about the basic workings of the menu.ini here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111832



Semper Fi Mud

I agree with you about not fine tuning things to the point where all measurements are precise (therefore, making it too easy). 'Realism' is always most important for me, also.

However, this little project doesn't have anything to do with range estimates. It's actually an attempt to try to add some useful realism to the in-game recognition manual, only so that people who might want to use it don't have to go out-of-game to get necessary target ship info.

[Brigs]

Mods,

Is it possible to edit the thread title to put a [WIP] at the beginning of the title ? I started this before noticing the system you guys came up with for tracking this stuff in the forum.

Of course, the obvious question may be " If this guy can't figure out how to edit a thread title, what the heck is he doing playin' around inside the game files ?! "

And, at this point, I happen to think that's a very good question.

[Hitman]

Of course, the obvious question may be " If this guy can't figure out how to edit a thread title, what the heck is he doing playin' around inside the game files ?! "


LOL don't worry, only moderators can edit the titles of the threads:lol: You are doing a hell of a job, keep it coming:up:

[Julius Caesar]

Brigs,
please inform us if you do manage to add data to rec. manual (length and aspect ratio); data that will be read from shipname.cfg files...

[Mav87th]

If you plan on using the tic-marks with a real Range-Calculator (like Kim Rønhof's Mark3B), then you need to either do changes to your Cameras.dat file or perhaps use my Cameras mod from this threat.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115525

[Bono_LV]

Where I can get Brigs's mod? Given link doesn't work.

[mr. whukid]

This is great! Thanks!

[Sailor Steve]

You know, when people revive a thread after almost six years they usually add something to it. The guy who started it hasn't even looked at Subsim in five years.

[mr. whukid]

You know, when people revive a thread after almost six years they usually add something to it. The guy who started it hasn't even looked at Subsim in five years.

My bad. I was going through the mods thread and thought I'd thank the creator of the mod. Thanks for implying I had something to do with the OP not being here for five years though. Clearly the mature choice

[CapnScurvy]

These old threads show the concern we had for figuring manual targeting, and wondering why we didn't get the results we expected.

Back in 2007 (depending on which patched version was out then, 1.1 or 1.2) the guys using the metric system were getting manual targeting stadimeter readings that were in yards not meters!? Little did anyone suspect this error was a contributing factor to those using the metric system to getting inaccurate firing solutions.

I see someone pointed out they should use Krupps Dimensions for ship mast height. The need for revising the measurements was really needed back in those days (and they still are today).....the measurements were terribly inaccurate! However, Krupp made his dimensions for the stock ships based on real life measurements. The only trouble with that was the measuring tools the game provided were just as inaccurate as the measurements.

The idea of listing lengths in the Recognition Manual so the scope could measure a ships angled length compared to its true length is an excellent one for figuring AoB. However, we didn't know the scope telemeter divisions were not accurately scaled to measure the particular Field of View the scope provides. Nor did anyone suspect the particular resolution/aspect angle a player used with his system, would be different compared to someone else when looking at the same target, at the same distance!?

Having accurate measurements are only as good as the accuracy of the yard stick you use with them.

I'll admit one thing, as long as you allow the target to get so close you can see the "whites off their eyes", an average player will never know how far off his firing solution really was....his result of getting a hit is all that counts. Gut shots do wonders for a shooters ego. :O: