these DDs ain't stupid

[Capt. Shark Bait]

came across a huge euro liner and set an intercept course. after a bit a DD shows up so i goto periscope depth and continue on, keeping an eye on said DD. after a bit more i get more contacts, 4 DDs and a passenger ship. eventually i fire 2 on the liner and at that same moment one of the newer contacts cuts across my course so i let ine more go hoping to the that DD, but all missed. so, i go deep, 200' and run silent with one partially loaded tube. i got away then came about to let the last go free and it misses as well so i set a course to the SW via previously plotted waypoints. i'm 3k yrds from from the passenger ship so i got periscope depth the check on things. all 4 destroyers are still me:o. they followed me while i was at 200' along the course that was set:damn:. i go deep again to no avail. the thermal layer wasn't much help either. finished it up at 755':dead:

[SteamWake]

See Ive been saying all along. The DD's arent all that stupid.

I keep reading these posts about brain dead AI personally Ive run accross a couple of stupid ones. For instance sitting directly in front of me at 400 yards at a dead stop listening (key word being dead).

But for the most part they have been reactive, and aggressive.

I lost a carrer tonight while trying to slip through cape horn. Got spotted visually (may have been radar hard to tell) at night in shallow water.

I tried to settle down on the bottom and go silent. ping ping... uth oh... ash cans right on top of us.. big time trouble flooding and the damn scopes .. both of them damaged ! not to mention the pumps and flooding.

We HAD to surface and try to slug it out. Captain Frank Thompsin RIP....

[Ducimus]

AI detection stock is rather lack luster to understate it. What's really grabbing you by the nuts is the disparity in crew rating assigned to various AI. Crew ratings scale from 0 to 4. And if lessons learned from SH3 still hold true, Crew rating of 0, may as well be mentailly retarded. Crew rating of 4, is Bungo Petes evil twin brother.

[orangenee]

I had a run in with some DDs but managed to get away from them, it took a long time though they kept finding me again, then once they seemed to have given up, they ate some torpedo. The AI seems pretty tight to me.

[Tarl]

I mentioned this in a different thread. Enemy AI appears to vary from contact to contact. Not sure if the timeline has anything to do with it, but I started a campaign in Dec 1941 and was forced to retire in early 1943. Too bad because I just acquired a Balao class sub.


So.... restarted a new campaign in early 1944 and started with a Balao this time. (I mean comeon, I had already been promoted into one).

...the missions I've played this time around, very TUFF AI for the DDs. I've been sunk twice and damaged so bad (other times) where I couldn't continue the mission, repair or make it back to base (ie, rudder destroyed, dive planes destroyed...etc.)

So yes, earlier in the game I had some DDs that were easy to fool and get around, and I've had some really TUFF cookies that continue to persist and track you, DC u and actually sink u.

[-Pv-]

I've also seen strong indication the enemy AI improves with war period and that would be historically correct.

I've had a lot of trouble with armed cargo ships.
Finishing them off with cannon isn't always a safe thing. I now attack them from the far side after they've begin listing.

Some aircraft are sneaky. Will watch them fly by and circle around on radar, then come back at low level under the radar (getting a late visual) for a quick straif. My whole crew gets a very heart pounding workout when this happens.

The task force sub hunters use a very effective technique that's hard to counter, so I work to avoid them.

The distances, highly variable weather, shallow target areas around complex island chains is very satisfying to me. Knowing how effective the DDs and DCs can be, it's very satisfying when I evade near misses with the boat rocking to the DC dance.
Over-all, I find this game more challenging than SH3 though the convoy evasion logic needs some work. In the Silent Service game I knew I only had one good shot at the convoy before I would be pounded under for sometimes hours before I could give the long chase to contact for a second try. I've yet to experience that level in this game although the DD can keep me effectively pinned once they know where to look. I try to deny them that which adds to the planning and drama in the attack. Once I hear the steady pinging, I know the dance is about the start and I have to give the game my full attention.
-Pv-

[AVGWarhawk]

AI detection stock is rather lack luster to understate it. What's really grabbing you by the nuts is the disparity in crew rating assigned to various AI. Crew ratings scale from 0 to 4. And if lessons learned from SH3 still hold true, Crew rating of 0, may as well be mentailly retarded. Crew rating of 4, is Bungo Petes evil twin brother.

I'm voting on this post. It is a mixed bag with the DD, some are kick butt and others are deaf and blind. One nice thing is you do not know what you are going to get so running at them like a nut can be successful or you could be very dead. I find more lack luster than Deadeye Dick at the helm of the DD. There needs to more consistency with the Deadeye Dick to keep it interesting. Last night I decimated an entire convoy after blasting three DD with my deck cannon. Not what I call realistic. Also, the AI merchant need to act like the merchant should, zig-zag and full ahead. I see very little of this.

Right now I see the AI tuned for the casual gamer looking to blast everything and having a great time at it. No problem there, desired effect achieved. Luckly for guys looking to simulate closely what it was like we have guys like Ducimus who tweek the AI and make them harder to handle. I have not installed the harder AI as yet, waiting on next patch for that. All in all at this point, the AI DD are not that bad, IMHO.

[Capt. Shark Bait]

the deaf and blind you mention happened to me as well. sank 3 freighters with my deck gun and had a destroyer maybe not much more than 1500yrds off just moving about, "searching":-? not sure which i preferr:hmm:

[ryanwigginton]

Three times now I've ran into convoys with destroyer escorts usually on the surface in rough seas. And its a turkey shoot. The destroyers just seem to mince around not knowing what to do. One even sailed straight past me a hundred metres away dropping depth charges when I'm blatantly on the surface laughing at his feeble attempts. This is a perfect example of the bad AI. I think for some reason the crews manning the deck gun when infact they shouldn't be permitted. Historically, could the destroyers fire in rough seas? -I don't know (did they have automated guns) But anyway I fire until I run out of ammo then dissapear without a scratch and I have 100% realism set. Sort it out! For this reason I put the game to one-side YET AGAIN until the next patch... can't wait to play, but not worth it until these faults are fixed -would be like watching a pirate DVD. Or sneaking a peak at your christmas prezzies... You just spoil it for yourself. :roll:

[SteamWake]

There may be somthing to the later in the war argument as I tend to play campaigns started more or less in the middle of the war.

I have seen very few "brain dead" DD's.

[marky]

hmm

id have to disagree

ive been in the middle of convoys with my scope up and having the conning tower broaching and they STILL didnt attack

i sank 6 ships out of a convoy in the East China Sea, without a single ashcan being tossed

and therer were at least 4 Jap DDs in the area

[Cap'n Crabs]

I'm not sure what to think. I am leaning toward the DD's having better gear later in the war.

It's april '43, I approach this convoy and attack when they are in a good group.
The DD's start pinging away. They find me and are closing towards me. I crash dive, then go to silent running. I drop down to 250 ft, a little below the thermal, but not good enough, they start dropping cans. All my evasion tactics fail, they keep finding me. Eventually they killed me.

I reloaded the mission several times to test it. I found it is apparently my own fault.
Even though I was below the thermal and running silent, it would not do.
I was using the speed helm at default, running it's slowest setting, however, that is still too much noise. I dropped down to 320 ft... still finding me.

What I needed to do is switch the speed helm to the "incremental" view, where I could set a slower turn.
When I hear them ramp up speed to make a run on me, I would go flank, then do a hard port or starboard shut down and coast.

I found they would lose me if I went no faster than 1.5 maybe 2 kts.
I was able to very slowly creep away and they would just pound the water from where they detected me.

I'm sure some guys probably discussed doing this in other posts and I missed it. But that's the only way I could escape them, and in '43 is when I noticed them being tougher.
Don't know about surface shootouts, as I try to avoid that if I can. ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

I just got a nasty DD. Darn thing was still blasting me and his deck was a good 45 degrees over:o

[Cap'n Crabs]

That'll teach ya to play on the surface. :lol:

[SteamWake]

It seems to be a position thing.

If your outside the convoy looking in your in risky buisness.

If your in the middle of the fleet the DD's go brain dead and dont know what to do.

I'm gonna guess and say it has to do with the "noise" from all those screws churining and they cant pick you out from the background noise.

But thats just a guess.

[Julius Caesar]

it seems that dd are much better when you are submerged.
when you are surfaced-they are brain dead. :doh:

[FAdmiral]

it seems that dd are much better when you are submerged.
when you are surfaced-they are brain dead. :doh:

I take it then you have NEVER been rammed by "Bungo Pete"
I HAVE and he is no slouch whether you are submerged or surfaced....

JIM

[Calbeck]

From an historical point of view, running into the occasional "retard AI" is right and proper. The Japanese Navy developed a tradition early on for optics, including night fighting, but had a distinct tendency to pooh-pooh radar and sonar as "gadgets". If they couldn't lay eyes on it, they didn't trust the data, by and large (notice the US had the same attitude, pre-Pearl).

As a result, the positions of radarman/sonarman were often punitive. They were boring, repetitive, math-crunching jobs "unsuited for a true warrior". It was a job on the level of mess hall cook to the Japanese and nothing to take pride in doing.

As a result of that attitude, training and retention of sonar/radar crews was particularly lackluster throughout the war. Even though Japan actually produced exceptional arrays toward the end of the conflict, they never maintained a universally reliable cadre to actually operate the things.

So that time you run into the "stupid" DD that's just sitting there 500 yards away while you pop a fish at it? The sonar guy's prolly listening to Radio Honolulu.:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Capt. Shark Bait]

after sending a contact report, i was ordered to inflict heavy losses on the escorts. took out one, then the other 2 had to try and runi my day. at one point i had the external cam up, yeah i know it's sorta like cheating:stare: , and it sounded like one DD had shut down it's engines to listen for where i might be. next thing i know it's turning to bear down on me and promptly started a run:ping: . needless to say i went to flank speed and quickly changed course. anyway, hearing what sounded like an engine shutdown, is the AI that smart? i did manage to get one more out of 3, tho, and it wasn't easy:rock:

[jerryt]

It seems to be a position thing.

If your outside the convoy looking in your in risky buisness.

If your in the middle of the fleet the DD's go brain dead and dont know what to do.

I'm gonna guess and say it has to do with the "noise" from all those screws churining and they cant pick you out from the background noise.

But thats just a guess.

I noticed the same thing. I hit one the other night and stayed in amongst to freighters, and the DD's kept circling around but weren't dropping to close to me.

[jerryt]

after sending a contact report, i was ordered to inflict heavy losses on the escorts. took out one, then the other 2 had to try and runi my day. at one point i had the external cam up, yeah i know it's sorta like cheating:stare: , and it sounded like one DD had shut down it's engines to listen for where i might be. next thing i know it's turning to bear down on me and promptly started a run:ping: . needless to say i went to flank speed and quickly changed course. anyway, hearing what sounded like an engine shutdown, is the AI that smart? i did manage to get one more out of 3, tho, and it wasn't easy:rock:

They must have spotted your camera. :o :rotfl:

[tater]

I made a mission to test ramming when the ship classes are switched from what they were, to Type=1 (corvette).

I had calm sea, on a clear morning. I ran on the surface towards a minesweeper set to be a "corvette" with AI set to elite. He started firing at me at extreme range. He hit me pretty quickly. I never got close enough to see if he'd ram me.

Next try.

I cross his path at 90 degress submerged and stop. When he gets close, I set the depth to 30 (Porpoise Class). I'm decks awash in front of him. He stops maybe 50-100 yards from me and sits there. I shoot some AA at him, and only then does he slowly move forward and ram me.

He took no damage, but either did I. Plugged him a few times with HE and Boom.

I waited a few hours (in TC) for the subchaser, also set to be a corvette, came. He managed to avoid ramming me, so I rammed him and he blew up. (also set to elite).

[kakemann]

And if lessons learned from SH3 still hold true, Crew rating of 0, may as well be mentailly retarded. Crew rating of 4, is Bungo Petes evil twin brother.
:hmm:

The crew rating is definately related to the AI's "brains". In my mod i've raised all crew status on all of the enemy convoys, task forces etc. because I wanted them to be more deadly just as you did on your mod, Ducimus.
Most of the time they would really be more challenging, and especially when spotted running on the surface you would clearly see a difference with higher crew rating. They will start pounding your sub almost instantly.
However a few times it doesn't matter. The AI will just behave strange, but more seldom though

[Ducimus]

it seems that dd are much better when you are submerged.
when you are surfaced-they are brain dead. :doh:

I take it then you have NEVER been rammed by "Bungo Pete"
I HAVE and he is no slouch whether you are submerged or surfaced....

JIM

:) I have truly created a monster with that mod.

[kakemann]

:lol: Who is this "Bungo Pete"? :hmm:

:rock:

[FAdmiral]

MAN, I had thought by now everyone had seen that movie....
"Run Silent, Run Deep" 1958 starring Clark Gable & Burt Lancaster

JIM

[kakemann]

:oops:

Didn't see that movie! Any good? ;)

[Ducimus]

:lol: Who is this "Bungo Pete"? :hmm:

:rock:

Load the mod, head to the Bung Suido area, and find out. :smug:

[kakemann]

:rotfl:

I see it now in your mod's readme! Great! :yep:

[Beery]

...it sounded like one DD had shut down it's engines to listen for where i might be. next thing i know it's turning to bear down on me and promptly started a run:ping: . needless to say i went to flank speed and quickly changed course. anyway, hearing what sounded like an engine shutdown, is the AI that smart?

The AI destroyers in both SH3 and SH4 do indeed shut down their engines so they can listen. If there's more than one destroyer one will shut down and listen and he'll tell the others where to look.

[Capt. Shark Bait]

...it sounded like one DD had shut down it's engines to listen for where i might be. next thing i know it's turning to bear down on me and promptly started a run:ping: . needless to say i went to flank speed and quickly changed course. anyway, hearing what sounded like an engine shutdown, is the AI that smart?

The AI destroyers in both SH3 and SH4 do indeed shut down their engines so they can listen. If there's more than one destroyer one will shut down and listen and he'll tell the others where to look.

that's what i thought, tho -it's engine sound stopped the further away i got from it, so i couldn't be sure

[Old Dog]

:oops:

Didn't see that movie! Any good? ;)
Edward L. Beach wrote the book (same title) that the movie was based on.
He wrote some other books on subs too.

Old Dog