AA gun severely in need of a nerfing!

[7Enigma]

So I've finally moved into the later years of the war and have a new sub with the ability to have 2 AA guns on it. My aft gun is the traditional 20mm, but my fore gun is now a 40mm powerhouse. This sucker shoots 4 round "clips", and takes about 2 seconds to reload. Doesn't seem very effective at AA duty due to the slow firing rate (my crew seems much more adept with the 20mm machine-gun like fire), but it is INCREDIBLY effective against merchant shipping. Too effective IMO.

My first foray into using this weapon against a ship was on my latest patrol where i had exhausted my deck gun ammo and torps. I was frustrated that a 10k ton merchant ship would have to be passed up on after expending 2 torps and a handful of deck gun ammo. I pulled up along side and started firing with my 20mm. As expected nothing really happened. After 2 clips of HE rounds I got ready to sulk away.

Then I remembered this sub had 2 AA guns. I hit F7 again to go to my fore 40mm AA gun and 1 second and 2 shots later it was destroyed. I didn't think anything of it since this ship must have been swiss cheese after all the damage I inflicted on it and this 40mm shot was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

So further along I passed 2 sampans. Normally I hit these with 4-5 deck gun rounds and they're done, or unload with my 20mm AA gun if I can get close enough quickly. This time I pulled out the 40mm AA and again in about 2 seconds and 4 rounds they were destroyed. Now I was getting concerned...

I was still heading back to Midway for a refitment and happened to pass an unescorted convoy of 2 medium merchants. With the previous odd results I wanted to do a test. I ran at flank speed towards the rear ship in the convoy. I got to about 700m and opened fire. After 8 shots (2 clips and probably under 10 seconds), the merchant started to catch on fire. Another 2 clips and it was heavily on fire, and before the 5th clip (maybe 20 seconds tops) it was destroyed. Please note I was still far enough away that I wasn't targeting anything specifically, just aiming for the ship.

I turned west to start my attack from the rear of the other merchant. No guns from this angle allowed me to get within 400m without taking fire. I counted my rounds as I aimed midway into the rear of the boat. 15 rounds and the ship was destroyed.

So I don't know the actual makeup of these 40mm rounds, but would assume they are vastly smaller (and with MUCH less kinetic energy) then the deck gun ammo. Basically this 40mm AA gun is the equivalent of a deck gun on steriods. Seems to have very similar power to the deck gun but fires at 20-30times the rate.

My next test will be charging directly into a GUARDED convoy and see if the same thing happens against enemy DD's. If it does, I might have to limit my use of this uber-weapon to only AA duty and if I run into the ship-that-will-not-sink when I'm out of munitions.

Anyone else experience this? (1.2 patch, currently no ammo or gun mods being used)

[Kayback]

So I don't know the actual makeup of these 40mm rounds, but would assume they are vastly smaller (and with MUCH less kinetic energy) then the deck gun ammo. Basically this 40mm AA gun is the equivalent of a deck gun on steriods. Seems to have very similar power to the deck gun but fires at 20-30times the rate.

Anyone else experience this? (1.2 patch, currently no ammo or gun mods being used)

I've just mentioned the exact same thing in another topic. While IRL the 40mm Bofor gun is a fantastic weapon, IMHO it's a little too effective against steel shipping in the game.

I seems to me that the gun does the same damage as the deck gun, only as you said in rapid fire.

IRL it fires a 2lb (+/- 1kg) HE round at 2800fps, with a ceiling of around 8000'. Not bad, but against a destroyer? The 1.9lbs AP round would be slightly better, but only just. It's penetration is at 0 yards-2.7", 2,000 yards-1.2", 4,000 yards-0.60", 6000 yards-0.45". Os to punch 3" of steel armour you'd have to basically have your gun barrel touching the enemy ships

Still seems slightly powerful in the game.

KBK

[Subnuts]

IRL it fires a 2lb (+/- 1kg) HE round at 2800fps, with a ceiling of around 8000'. Not bad, but against a destroyer? The 1.9lbs AP round would be slightly better, but only just. It's penetration is at 0 yards-2.7", 2,000 yards-1.2", 4,000 yards-0.60", 6000 yards-0.45". Os to punch 3" of steel armour you'd have to basically have your gun barrel touching the enemy ships


I'm not sure where you're getting "3 inches of steel armour" from. In terms of armor plating, the average WWII era destroyer didn't wear much 'cept for a smile. On a Fletcher-class destroyer, for example, the high tensile steel plates at the waterline midships were only about 7/10ths of an inch thick. Below the waterline, they were only about 1/2 inch thick. Not a whole lot of stopping power.

[Kayback]

I'm not sure where you're getting "3 inches of steel armour" from.

It came out wrong. I was trying to save typing time and in doing so, mis stated myself.

I was trying to talk both about the heavier ships, which the 40mm chews up just as bad, as well as the gun turrets some of the bigger vessels, and the destroyers themselves do have.

Against these heavier ships, and the heavy, sloped armour of the gun housings, the 40mm Bofor wouldn't touch them, even if you shot at point blank range.



KBK

[7Enigma]

And I'm talking about huge 10,000 ton merchants going down in 10-20 RANDOM shots, not even aiming at the waterline or the engine room (where a possible explosion could cause the sinking). The damage modeling just seems extremely out of whack for this particular weapon.

[Galanti]

I've cut all damage by a third in my shells.zon for all sub-based guns (I left all surface ship guns as is - they should be able to kick our teeth in!), but I haven't had the chance to test the Bofors. I'll try at the earliest possible moment and let you know if it makes a difference.

[U-Bones]

Wow, 40mm ftw !

Actually my playstyle nerfs AA pretty drastically. I never even man AA guns unless I am unable to dive. This does sound over the top though.

[7Enigma]

Wow, 40mm ftw !

Actually my playstyle nerfs AA pretty drastically. I never even man AA guns unless I am unable to dive. This does sound over the top though.

That's exactly why I JUST found out about the 40mm. Deck gun I always take control of myself since I can range a ship within 2-3 shots, and then immediately get to the below waterline shots. AA guns I always leave to my trusty crew as I'm busy trying to navigate/dive out of the way! I took a couple pot shots and sunk the ship!

[7Enigma]

I've cut all damage by a third in my shells.zon for all sub-based guns (I left all surface ship guns as is - they should be able to kick our teeth in!), but I haven't had the chance to test the Bofors. I'll try at the earliest possible moment and let you know if it makes a difference.

I think this is sound for the deck gun shells, but for the 40mm AA gun it would need to be like 80% reduction IMO. But then they would be worthless as a true AA weapon since the massive damage comes at a huge price (ROF).

Now that I think about it, I want the "OH $HIT!" button next to battlestations that targets the closest contact with ALL munitions (minus torps of course). I want my deck gunners, AA guns, and any small arms fire from the watch crew to fire on the closest ship. That would sure make a great screenshot!

Reminds me of the good old days of MechWarrior where they had a salvo shot of all the lasers at once. It could make you overheat in a single shot or 2, but if it was well-placed, could cripple the enemy in a hurry...

[akdavis]

Bear in mind that by the time 40mm Bofors were installed on subs, they were used almost exclusively against shipping, so that is not an inappropiate employment in game. That said, all guns on the subs are too effective.

[7Enigma]

Bear in mind that by the time 40mm Bofors were installed on subs, they were used almost exclusively against shipping, so that is not an inappropiate employment in game. That said, all guns on the subs are too effective.

Hmm, that's very interesting to know. I had thought I was inappropriately using the rounds against shipping, but it seems they served a dual purpose.

They just need to be seriously tweaked unless they were in fact that effective in combat. :rotfl:

[VonBlade]

Reminds me of the good old days of MechWarrior where they had a salvo shot of all the lasers at once. It could make you overheat in a single shot or 2, but if it was well-placed, could cripple the enemy in a hurry...

*off-topic rambling*
Ahhh. But if you filled it up with heatsinks and had a few Gauss in amongst the mega stuff, you could almost fire-at-will.

Mechwarrior. Fabulous game. Chromehounds is almost as good for a modern version.
VB

[GSpector]

My biggest complaint about the AA Gun is that it is unusable on the Gato.

Every time I use it and rotate, I end up looking at subsiding. Is there a fix for this blocked view. I thought this was addressed in the latest patch.

[CaptainHaplo]

OK - I am going to disagree that ALL the guns on the subs need a power dropdown... The 4" gun definitely is NOT overpowered at stock settings. In fact, if anything - its weak. I suspect the 3 and 5 inch may be as well...

Here is the reasoning - as mentioned above escorts have literally no armor - and neither do merchants. And your going to tell me a 4" explosive charge - hitting a thin shell of steel isnt going to puncture it? AP especially - would punch through the hull OR plate of a DD's turret. There are a number of battle reports from the era where Light Cruisers would be hit by 5" guns and take major damage. Yet it takes 10 or 12 hits at the waterline to have much effect on a DD? Not realistic.

However, I accept that there have to be some gameplay sacrifices, and I think the gun power is set like it is because when we use it - we are a lot more accurate than gun crews of the era were. Once I get the range - every shot hits where I want - and no gun crew of the era could do that.

Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo

[7Enigma]

OK - I am going to disagree that ALL the guns on the subs need a power dropdown... The 4" gun definitely is NOT overpowered at stock settings. In fact, if anything - its weak. I suspect the 3 and 5 inch may be as well...

Here is the reasoning - as mentioned above escorts have literally no armor - and neither do merchants. And your going to tell me a 4" explosive charge - hitting a thin shell of steel isnt going to puncture it? AP especially - would punch through the hull OR plate of a DD's turret. There are a number of battle reports from the era where Light Cruisers would be hit by 5" guns and take major damage. Yet it takes 10 or 12 hits at the waterline to have much effect on a DD? Not realistic.

However, I accept that there have to be some gameplay sacrifices, and I think the gun power is set like it is because when we use it - we are a lot more accurate than gun crews of the era were. Once I get the range - every shot hits where I want - and no gun crew of the era could do that.

Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo

I agree. In my original post I only mentioned the 40mm gun as being overpowered, I like how the deck guns operate in terms of firepower and reload rate. Here's an update to my other post:

Last night I wanted to see just how bad the situation really is if you aggressively use the 40mm on a convoy.

I spotted a 6-strong convoy of 3 DD's and 3 large merchants close together. The weather was atrocious and it was slightly after dusk (still slight visibility). I was able to run flank at the surface and made a direct path at the DD at the head of the pack. I kept the sub aimed directly at him so I had as small a cross-section as possible and he never fired on me? :huh: I got to about 1000 yards and opened fire. Now its really difficult to guage this 40mm gun since it has a much quicker drop off then the deck gun (this doesn't make sense unless its traveling MUCH slower and therefore should do MUCH less damage).

Anyways I open fire on the DD and after about 16 rounds was able to make contact. Took 3 clips (12 rounds) and it was blazing. This took about 10 seconds, and shortly after I got the confirmation explosion that it was destroyed. I proceeded to then 1 by 1 at flank speed drive directly towards the convoy and like Rambo, sunk each ship in turn with little return fire (none ever hit me).

This was after refitting at Midway, and I'm on my way to another group of Islands (on my 5th set of orders in this patrol). I have something like 35 ships sunk so far and some rediculous tonnage above 160k.

So yeah....:hmm:

[akdavis]

OK - I am going to disagree that ALL the guns on the subs need a power dropdown... The 4" gun definitely is NOT overpowered at stock settings. In fact, if anything - its weak. I suspect the 3 and 5 inch may be as well...

Here is the reasoning - as mentioned above escorts have literally no armor - and neither do merchants. And your going to tell me a 4" explosive charge - hitting a thin shell of steel isnt going to puncture it? AP especially - would punch through the hull OR plate of a DD's turret. There are a number of battle reports from the era where Light Cruisers would be hit by 5" guns and take major damage. Yet it takes 10 or 12 hits at the waterline to have much effect on a DD? Not realistic.

However, I accept that there have to be some gameplay sacrifices, and I think the gun power is set like it is because when we use it - we are a lot more accurate than gun crews of the era were. Once I get the range - every shot hits where I want - and no gun crew of the era could do that.

Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo

Penetrating the hull is not the only factor. In comparison to the target, the explosives delivered are rather small. Kinda like tossing grenades at an office building and expecting it to topple.

Initially, deck guns were considered by many to be an extraneous and dangerous piece of hardware for submarines at the beginning of the war. Principally, the reasoning was that a submarine is basically a poor platform for a deck gun. Owing to the fact that the vast majority of the sub fleet's war patrols within 500 miles of Japanese bases were conducted submerged, the value of the deck gun was severely questioned. Additionally, it was reasoned that a submarine in a head to head gun battle with an enemy in possession of equal (or greater) firepower was at serious risk. Any enemy hits on the submarine which could impede or prevent her ability to submerge was justification enough to avoid a surface gun action. That's not to say that submariners didn't take advantage of some welcomed target practice when the opportunity arose. US Submarines that were scouting the Japanese Empire waters frequently came upon sampans, which were often suspected of being naval lookouts or anti-submarine pickets. By April of 1942, submarine skippers decided to start thinning out the sampan fleet and a periscope contact often resulted in the order of "Battle Surface". The results of a piboat going up against a lightly armed, floating bundle of wood one would think could be easily determined, however sinking these pesky little vessels was not a simple as first thought. Theodore Roscoe, in his book US SUBMARINE OPERATIONS IN WW II, states: "They could be riddled with .30 and .50 caliber machine gun bullets and holed several times by 3 or 5 inch shells and remain afloat like a box of Swiss cheese". More often than not, a submarine's deck gun was of greater value for overall morale than it was for combat effectiveness. A submerged boat that was damaged by an enemy surface vessel could, as a last ditch effort to survive, surface and engage in a gun battle, although with the odds generally stacked heavily against it. The deck gun was the ultimate weapon of last resort and it has been suggested that the 3, 4 or 5 inch guns (used for both anti-aircraft and surface actions and typically located abaft of the the conning tower), was therefore justified.