Getting to grips with manual shooting

[ddiplock]

I've started practicing manual TDC.

I've been using the torpedo training mission for such purposes so i don't waste valuble torps during wartime.

I input everything as it should be after working it all out. Target range, speed, AOB, their current bearing in my scope optics....and I fire the torpedos. Problem is....the gyroangle setting is auto...which I can't seem to change, and its causing the torpedos to turn too wide, and go behind the target completly.

what can I do to fix this?

[Umfuld]

From one manual noob to another -

You can change gyro to manual in the TDC screen, there's a switch you click.


But, to say that you are putting the info in and then the gyro is making the shot turn too wide isn't right. The imput you are putting in is creating the gyro angle. So for that to be wrong your info must be off.

Right?

[Maraz]

Be sure you are in auto TDC mode (ie when the periscope rotates, also the gyro angle does so).

Try to shoot with low gyro angles (330 to 30 degrees) this makes your shooting much more precise (particularly in early war). This means you have to aim your submarine towards the target (though not precisely).

If still you have problems, there is something wrong in the parameters you put in (AOB, range, target speed). Get a mod that lets you see the TDC while in the periscope/UZO screen (eg poor sailor's "my favourite dials") and check that the wheels are at the values you are expecting.

Shoot at close range (1000m or less) because SH3 merchantships can accelerate and avoid your torpedoes!!

Good luck!
Maraz

[raduz]

I've started practicing manual TDC.

I've been using the torpedo training mission for such purposes so i don't waste valuble torps during wartime.

I input everything as it should be after working it all out. Target range, speed, AOB, their current bearing in my scope optics....and I fire the torpedos. Problem is....the gyroangle setting is auto...which I can't seem to change, and its causing the torpedos to turn too wide, and go behind the target completly.

what can I do to fix this?

you cant change the gyroangle. it is set automatically and depends on the data you put in TDC (speed, AoB, range). if your torpedoes go behind, then maybe you underestimate the speed of the target or you just forget to press "Q" to open the tubes before shot. it can also happen if you aim at very rear part of the target. just try to aim at the center part of the ship.

[Kumando]

I've started practicing manual TDC.

I've been using the torpedo training mission for such purposes so i don't waste valuble torps during wartime.

I input everything as it should be after working it all out. Target range, speed, AOB, their current bearing in my scope optics....and I fire the torpedos. Problem is....the gyroangle setting is auto...which I can't seem to change, and its causing the torpedos to turn too wide, and go behind the target completly.

what can I do to fix this?

Dont forget to click the tickbox to update the gyroangle, if you are not doing this you are not sending the updated data to the tdc.

[P_Funk]

The main reason you'll miss is because you have either miscalculated AoB or speed. Also if you don't open torpedo doors before you fire then the torpedoes will be delayed often long enough to miss astern. And there is a stock bug where the speed of steam torpedoes is set to slow when its at fast and you need to manually set torpedo speed everytime.

I suggest continuing practise with the torpedo mission until you don't miss very often.

[ddiplock]

I've started practicing manual TDC.

I've been using the torpedo training mission for such purposes so i don't waste valuble torps during wartime.

I input everything as it should be after working it all out. Target range, speed, AOB, their current bearing in my scope optics....and I fire the torpedos. Problem is....the gyroangle setting is auto...which I can't seem to change, and its causing the torpedos to turn too wide, and go behind the target completly.

what can I do to fix this?

Dont forget to click the tickbox to update the gyroangle, if you are not doing this you are not sending the updated data to the tdc.


Forgive my ignorance, lol, but when in the TDC screen, where I fiddle with the knobs and dials to put the data in....is there actually a tickbox somewhere on the TDC screen to hold the info you enter? is this what your saying?

[Kumando]

I've started practicing manual TDC.

I've been using the torpedo training mission for such purposes so i don't waste valuble torps during wartime.

I input everything as it should be after working it all out. Target range, speed, AOB, their current bearing in my scope optics....and I fire the torpedos. Problem is....the gyroangle setting is auto...which I can't seem to change, and its causing the torpedos to turn too wide, and go behind the target completly.

what can I do to fix this?
Dont forget to click the tickbox to update the gyroangle, if you are not doing this you are not sending the updated data to the tdc.

Forgive my ignorance, lol, but when in the TDC screen, where I fiddle with the knobs and dials to put the data in....is there actually a tickbox somewhere on the TDC screen to hold the info you enter? is this what your saying?

No, what i mean is the tickbox in the notepad in UZO/Periscope.

[ddiplock]

I've started practicing manual TDC.

I've been using the torpedo training mission for such purposes so i don't waste valuble torps during wartime.

I input everything as it should be after working it all out. Target range, speed, AOB, their current bearing in my scope optics....and I fire the torpedos. Problem is....the gyroangle setting is auto...which I can't seem to change, and its causing the torpedos to turn too wide, and go behind the target completly.

what can I do to fix this?
Dont forget to click the tickbox to update the gyroangle, if you are not doing this you are not sending the updated data to the tdc.

Forgive my ignorance, lol, but when in the TDC screen, where I fiddle with the knobs and dials to put the data in....is there actually a tickbox somewhere on the TDC screen to hold the info you enter? is this what your saying?

No, what i mean is the tickbox in the notepad in UZO/Periscope.

So....even if you input the data manually into the TDC, you still need to click the tickbox via the notepad to "confirm" it all?

[Maraz]

So....even if you input the data manually into the TDC, you still need to click the tickbox via the notepad to "confirm" it all?

No, you don't. You don't need using the notepad at all. If you have the TDC accessible from the Periscope/UZO station (as some mods allow), just hit CTRL-T. Otherwise, in the TDC station, there is a red button you must click to engage TDC.

Cheers
Maraz

[ddiplock]

So....even if you input the data manually into the TDC, you still need to click the tickbox via the notepad to "confirm" it all?

No, you don't. You don't need using the notepad at all. If you have the TDC accessible from the Periscope/UZO station (as some mods allow), just hit CTRL-T. Otherwise, in the TDC station, there is a red button you must click to engage TDC.

Cheers
Maraz

I'm not sure i follow the "red button" comment, the only button i can see that engages the TDC is the "manual input/auto input" button. but its not red. lol

[ronbrewer]

Hey ddiplock,
I bet you and Maraz are talking about the same button on the TDC. To be sure, though, click it a few times and see if an indicator light on the TDC near it keeps switching between green and red. If so then you got the right button.
Thanks, Ron.

[ddiplock]

When all info is put into the TDC with manual input...how is it updates then as the potential for AOB changes etc??

[ronbrewer]

The movement of the periscope is what keeps the AOB updated, provided what was originally entered into the TDC manually is accurate. For example, if the target has a true course of 90 degrees and you are heading 180 degrees, the target's AOB will be 90 degrees port when it crosses your bow (zero bearing on the periscope). If you enter those numbers into the TDC (periscope dial at zero, AOB at 90 degrees port) and then click the manual/auto TDC button to make the light go red, as you move the periscope the AOB setting will follow. The numbers below are examples as to how the periscope dial and AOB dial are locked together when auto TDC is enabled.

Bearing 0 - AOB 90
Bearing 350 - AOB 100
Bearing 340 - AOB 110

Thanks,
Ron

[ddiplock]

The movement of the periscope is what keeps the AOB updated, provided what was originally entered into the TDC manually is accurate. For example, if the target has a true course of 90 degrees and you are heading 180 degrees, the target's AOB will be 90 degrees port when it crosses your bow (zero bearing on the periscope). If you enter those numbers into the TDC (periscope dial at zero, AOB at 90 degrees port) and then click the manual/auto TDC button to make the light go red, as you move the periscope the AOB setting will follow. The numbers below are examples as to how the periscope dial and AOB dial are locked together when auto TDC is enabled.

Bearing 0 - AOB 90
Bearing 350 - AOB 100
Bearing 340 - AOB 110

Thanks,
Ron

Would I be correct in saying then, based on what you've said, that after you've put your info in....you then switch the TDC to auto so it "takes" over the changes in calculations??

[ronbrewer]

That's right. The manual entry is to give the TDC a reference point, or starting point. Changing it to auto right after that allows you to move the periscope and have it auto update the firing solution. As long as the sub or target do not change course you should be good to go.

Thanks,
Ron

[ddiplock]

That's right. The manual entry is to give the TDC a reference point, or starting point. Changing it to auto right after that allows you to move the periscope and have it auto update the firing solution. As long as the sub or target do not change course you should be good to go.

Thanks,
Ron

thought so. tried it on two ships in the torp training mission. torps for the small tanker were dead on target after siwtching to auto after i put the manual info in.

torpedos for the medium cargo went ahead of the ship and both of them missed, must have been off with my calcs somewhere i'm guessing :( lol.

i'll get the hang of manual shooting soon enough :)....but it would be too complicated doing it without the ships being shown on the maps :) I play on 90% realism anyway...that'll do for me

[Laffertytig]

im havin real probs hitin targets usin manual settings as all my shots are all goin aft.

im doin the naval academy torpedo mission and goin for the ship due NE which is movin S at 7 knots so ive got the speed sussed. heres what im doin

set tdc to manual, lock periscope to target and set course to 90

once on course i use the protractor method to get AOB which i imput using notepad, i also set target speed

set all torps to fast set tdc to auto open doors and fire.

so what am i doin wrong?

[ddiplock]

I think i'm getting a bit better at manual shooting......but if i have one little gripe I wish the dials on the TDC on the map were easier to read their numbers.

I was just trying to input the AOB for a target and couldn't tell if the number was a 60 or a 50 :S most annoying . lol

[ronbrewer]

Originally Posted by Laffertytig
im havin real probs hitin targets usin manual settings as all my shots are all goin aft.

im doin the naval academy torpedo mission and goin for the ship due NE which is movin S at 7 knots so ive got the speed sussed. heres what im doin

set tdc to manual, lock periscope to target and set course to 90

once on course i use the protractor method to get AOB which i imput using notepad, i also set target speed

set all torps to fast set tdc to auto open doors and fire.

so what am i doin wrong?


I'm not sure of your issue but it may be related to having the target locked on the periscope while in auto TDC and entering items from the notebook. I haven't used the notebook since 2005 but I think it is used while the TDC is in auto mode (I could be wrong).

However, since you have the target's true course it comes down to how you position your sub. Also, when I input data on manual TDC in the conning tower I keep the periscope at zero bearing to cut down on confusion. I always look at my solutions from the aspect of what it would be if the target were directly in front of me. After that when you set the TDC back to auto it will update the settings when you point the scope back onto the target.

Here's an approach to the situation you mentioned:

Since the target's course is 180 and your sub is on course 90, if the target's bearing to you is NE (45 degrees) then that is an AOB of 135 starboard (90 + 45). Since you are on a perpendicular course to the target you just take the amount of degrees the periscope has turned from zero bearing and add it to the target's AOB 90. Below are examples of AOB numbers when on perpendicular course (to help clarify what is going on):

Target bearing = 350
AOB = 80 (you add a negative 10 in this case)

Target bearing = 0
AOB = 90

Target bearing = 10
AOB = 100

Target bearing = 20
AOB = 110

Target bearing = 30
AOB = 120

Target bearing = 40
AOB = 130

Target bearing = 45
AOB = 135

In a situation like the one you are in where the target is already well past your zero bearing you can turn the sub towards it to cut down on the torpedo's gyro angle. For example, if you changed your sub's course from 90 to 110 you then have the following:

Target bearing = 350
AOB = 100

Target bearing = 0
AOB = 110

Target bearing = 10
AOB = 120

Target bearing = 20
AOB = 130

Target bearing = 25
AOB = 135

That would cut 20 degrees out of how much the torpedo would have to turn when it leaves the sub (improving the accuracy of its run).

Basically, once you know the target's true course there are games you can play with the positioning of the sub since the math involved with the AOB is straightforward.

Hope this helps,
Ron

[ronbrewer]

Originally Posted by ddiplock
I think i'm getting a bit better at manual shooting......but if i have one little gripe I wish the dials on the TDC on the map were easier to read their numbers.

I was just trying to input the AOB for a target and couldn't tell if the number was a 60 or a 50 :S most annoying . lol


Hey ddiplock,

I'm with you on that. Been there, done that. :)

What I have done to get accurate settings (and acutally see what I'm doing) is to mainly use the TDC in the conning tower. You have big dials there and it adds to the immersion for me to work out the solution in the 3D rendering within the game. One downside, however, is the conning tower really rows with the waves when in rough seas or when fast on the surface. I sometimes have to right click the weapons officer icon to take over his position and work the solution from the control room since that part of the sub isn't affected as much. The dials are smaller but there's less chance of getting seasick (I know I should have already grown my sea legs after all the patrols I've done over the last couple of years :) )

Thanks,
Ron

[Kataki]

I've started practicing manual TDC.

I've been using the torpedo training mission for such purposes so i don't waste valuble torps during wartime.

I input everything as it should be after working it all out. Target range, speed, AOB, their current bearing in my scope optics....and I fire the torpedos. Problem is....the gyroangle setting is auto...which I can't seem to change, and its causing the torpedos to turn too wide, and go behind the target completly.

what can I do to fix this?
Dont forget to click the tickbox to update the gyroangle, if you are not doing this you are not sending the updated data to the tdc.

Can't tell you how many torpedoes I have wasted because I haven't clicked the check mark after inputing the data :(

I have SH-4s manual TDC down (lol 200k in one patrol using manual TDC) but SH-3 has definetly thrown me off. Heh two patrols with a total of 0/5 so Im definetly doing something wrong.

[Hitman]

Since you are on a perpendicular course to the target you just take the amount of degrees the periscope has turned from zero bearing and add it to the target's AOB 90

You don't need to be perpendicular to the target's course, it's enough that you don't change your own course or the target doesn't. Here is the matematical reason, which might help a lot understanding how it all works:

For firing solution purposes, a triangle is drawn. One of the corners (A) is your sub, the other corner is the target (B), the third corner is where your course and the target's course cross (C).

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/513/tdcfcilgj3.jpg

Now, in naval terminology (US first then german) the three angles on those corners are:

A) Bearing / Peilung
B) Angle off the Bow / Lage
C) Track / Vorhalt

As you see, when you move your scope to follow the target you are essentially changing the size of angle A. But because in every triangle the sum of all angles is always 180º, and because the course of sub and target has not changed and thus angle C (Track angle) remains constant, you know for sure that the AOB must have changed exactly the amount your bearing angle has changed. Thus the TDC can do it automatically, but if you change course (Or the target does) you are in fact screwing the solution you had previously determined.

Hope that clarifies a bit this all:up:

[Laffertytig]

yeah thanks for the hitman. ive just scored a 30000 ton patrol, my best ever for manual shooting so im chuffed. its so much more satifying using manaul targeting

[ddiplock]

I hold the opinion that because of the wacky speed readings I have gotten for a Battleship witht the notepad, the chances of working out the speed manually chances are are much better.

Question about speed checking: Why is the time 3 minutes 15 seconds used for working out speed and not any other times?

cheers :)

[Hitman]

Why is the time 3 minutes 15 seconds used for working out speed and not any other times?


Because the distance in metres covered in that time can be directly converted to knots just dividing by 100, f.e. 5000 metres = aprox 5 knots

So if you can measure with the map ruler the distance the enemy covered in 3.15 minutes, you have an easy conversion available:yep:

[ronbrewer]

The 3:15 rule is popular due to the knowledge that a target going 1 knot would cover 100 meters in 3 minutes and 15 seconds. If it covers 200 meters in that same amount of time then it is going 2 knots. 250 meters would mean 2.5 knots, etc. The reality downside is that some procedures using this rule have you draw lines from your sub on the map taking advantage of the modern GPS system included in the game. Also, the 3:15 rule is more accurate when you sub is stationary (hummingbird effect).

An excellent alternative that was provided by Puster Bill is the following:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112765

and with this procedure you use slide rules that do not hold you to the 3:15 rule but will allow you to make two observations with any time span (though you shouldn't wait too long between the observations if you have your sub moving around 1 to 2 knots to maintain depth).

Thanks,
Ron

[ddiplock]

Just had my FIRST proper MANUAL torpedo victory against a 13900 ton Large Merchant. What a feeling one gets when they sink a ship inputting all the info manually!!!!! :rock: Sweet seeing all 4 torpedos slam home one after the other into the hull. :arrgh!:

The merchie was crawling along at a meagre 5 knots in the heavy seas. The perfect target for any IXB Uboat. My first real patrol in an IXB too, here's hoping i get some good tonnage under my belt in one :P

NOTE: Here's the emblem i have on my Uboat just now: http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200502/new-050209-mirror-maco/240x320.gif

Pretty sweet eh? ;)

[TarJak]

Well done M8. good to see another manual computation disciple.:up:

[Canovaro]

:up:

Every shot will have something personal now ;)