View Full Version : Mod idea - Gyroangle/Targeting Independent of Periscope
Phoenix3000
05-01-07, 09:34 AM
Hi all,
I read recently, on the SH4 forum I believe, that German U-boats periscope's were not linked to the actual firing solution - much like the American targeting system implemented in SH4.
If this is indeed true (can anyone confirm this), is a Mod available, or could it be designed that would make the periscope purely for observation use.
So, when targeting etc. it would not be possible to use the periscope to hit a particular part of the ship just by looking at it (on full manual of course), rather it would be down purely to the accuracy of the data obtained on course ship distance, speed, AOB etc.
In this way the gyroangle would not be so precise by using the periscope, but if your map calculations are correct you should get a hit - but perhaps not as precise. Surely that is more realistic?
If it's incorrect, and the periscope DID provide such a system then my mistake.:cool:
Just a thought....
Cheers all !
Px3000
If this is indeed true (can anyone confirm this), is a Mod available, or could it be designed that would make the periscope purely for observation use.
No, AFAIK it isn't true neither for the german UZO/Scope, nor for the US TBT/Scope:down: . However, some captains prefered the practice of setting a solution for a certain bearing and then wait until the target reaches that bearing (F.e. O'Kane), disabling meanwhile the continuous bearing update by the optics. Probably this was done due to 1) the delay the TDC had until the new solution was calculated (Only some seconds, but sometimes that's enough to miss or hit where you did not want to), 2) Be able to take quick bearings to more than one target, shifting rapidly between them (Would make the TDC mad if forced to update so fast).
No, AFAIK it isn't true neither for the german UZO/Scope, nor for the US TBT/Scope:down: .
Ummm I am confused, German boat's optics were linked to the TDC to feed bearing automatically but US boat's were not!!!
I wish people would stop mixing the two up!! :damn:
Sorry Joea, but they'll never get it right. Hell, the Romanian devs didn't even get the German TDC right. They used the AMERICAN AoB method rather than the German target course method.
Lets face it, the Americans will always win the war, even in retrospect.:rotfl::roll:
Sorry Joea, but they'll never get it right. Hell, the Romanian devs didn't even get the German TDC right. They used the AMERICAN AoB method rather than the German target course method.
Lets face it, the Americans will always win the war, even in retrospect.:rotfl::roll:
:rotfl: Well they did get the part right that the periscope and UZo are linked to the TDC in SHIII as it was in the KM, but is not so in SHIV and the USN. You're right the AoB thing is wrong in SHIII though. Was also wrong in SHII btw. :nope:
Sorry Joea, but they'll never get it right. Hell, the Romanian devs didn't even get the German TDC right. They used the AMERICAN AoB method rather than the German target course method.
Lets face it, the Americans will always win the war, even in retrospect.:rotfl::roll:
:rotfl: Well they did get the part right that the periscope and UZo are linked to the TDC in SHIII as it was in the KM, but is not so in SHIV and the USN. You're right the AoB thing is wrong in SHIII though. Was also wrong in SHII btw. :nope:
Realistically I'd want both. I mean AoB is more handy in some situations whereas Course is better in others.
But it also poses an interesting problem to those wanting to make a realistic U-boat campaign for SH4. Without an SDK, how does one alter the TDC properly?:hmm:
Ummm I am confused, German boat's optics were linked to the TDC to feed bearing automatically but US boat's were not!!!
I wish people would stop mixing the two up!! :damn:
Both could update the TDC input with optics or disable it. But the americans used to disable it after the first observation because they had the position keeper:smug: They only re-sent the bearing from the optics if the output of the PK was showing a wrong first estimate:know:
You're right the AoB thing is wrong in SHIII though. Was also wrong in SHII btw.
From what I remember from SH2, it did not use at all the AOB concept of SH3. Instead, in SH2 manual targeting you simply entered the enemy ship course (which is historically correct).
Both germans and americans used the AOB concept (Germans called it simply "Lage") as one of the three angles of the "shooting triangle". And both used it to make guesses of the target course. But none of them did input it into the TDC as shown in the games:down: The german TDC procedure had a step for the angle off the bow (The dial depicted in SH3) yet when the input was completed, the TDC computed using the resulting target course, not the always-changing-AOB. In the US TDC there was plain and simply no input for AOB:stare:.
Both TDCs allowed for changes in own ship course without any need of new inputs, while SH3 does not allow it, and SH4 allows it only once the position keeper is started. Anyway, the current SH3 way of doing things is not really really that bad. It isn't 100% historically accurate, but more or less works well once you have the target course determined. :ping: Only it is more intensive in terms of manuallly fiddling around with the TDC inputs in the F6 screen to ensure the correct final solution is prepared for the moment you want to shoot.
Canovaro
05-02-07, 09:34 AM
If this is indeed true (can anyone confirm this), is a Mod available, or could it be designed that would make the periscope purely for observation use.
However, some captains prefered the practice of setting a solution for a certain bearing and then wait until the target reaches that bearing (F.e. O'Kane), disabling meanwhile the continuous bearing update by the optics. Probably this was done due to 1) the delay the TDC had until the new solution was calculated (Only some seconds, but sometimes that's enough to miss or hit where you did not want to), 2) Be able to take quick bearings to more than one target, shifting rapidly between them (Would make the TDC mad if forced to update so fast).
I always do that, it took me months to discover that those are linked and now I'm so used to manual bearing that I keep doing it this way. :oops:
Ummm I am confused, German boat's optics were linked to the TDC to feed bearing automatically but US boat's were not!!!
I wish people would stop mixing the two up!! :damn:
Both could update the TDC input with optics or disable it. But the americans used to disable it after the first observation because they had the position keeper:smug: They only re-sent the bearing from the optics if the output of the PK was showing a wrong first estimate:know:
You're right the AoB thing is wrong in SHIII though. Was also wrong in SHII btw.
From what I remember from SH2, it did not use at all the AOB concept of SH3. Instead, in SH2 manual targeting you simply entered the enemy ship course (which is historically correct).
Both germans and americans used the AOB concept (Germans called it simply "Lage") as one of the three angles of the "shooting triangle". And both used it to make guesses of the target course. But none of them did input it into the TDC as shown in the games:down: The german TDC procedure had a step for the angle off the bow (The dial depicted in SH3) yet when the input was completed, the TDC computed using the resulting target course, not the always-changing-AOB. In the US TDC there was plain and simply no input for AOB:stare:.
Both TDCs allowed for changes in own ship course without any need of new inputs, while SH3 does not allow it, and SH4 allows it only once the position keeper is started. Anyway, the current SH3 way of doing things is not really really that bad. It isn't 100% historically accurate, but more or less works well once you have the target course determined. :ping: Only it is more intensive in terms of manuallly fiddling around with the TDC inputs in the F6 screen to ensure the correct final solution is prepared for the moment you want to shoot.
I think you're wrong Hitman, the US subs the captain would yell out "mark" and the WO would read the bearing (and range) and input it in as necessary.
Re: AoB in the US TDC, well here is a picture now I am really confused
Here are a couple of pages
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08198.htm
And from SHII
http://silenthunterii.com/torpedo.html#
My head hurts. :88)
I think you're wrong Hitman, the US subs the captain would yell out "mark" and the WO would read the bearing (and range) and input it in as necessary.
That's when manning it all manually for the reasons I said above. Once the first bearing is entered (Using the procedure you explained), the TBT would continuously tell the TDC where it is aiming to, unless unplugged. Remember that the name for the tool is Target Bearing TRANSMITTER. It sends directly to the TDC data, no need to do it through the WO except at the first marking.:yep:
Re: AoB in the US TDC, well here is a picture now I am really confused
As you can see in the diagram, there is no dial input for the AOB. You get it instead by comparing the own ship and enemy ship dials.
Ok more clear for me Hitman, so when the captain yelled "AoB 75 port" the WO (or whoever) would twist the dials to the right way.
Yes, note that you must collect (US TDC) a first row of data before being able to start the position keeper. While doing so, there is no problem in linking the TBT to the TDC. But once the position keeper starts, you only flash corrections to the TDC, otherwise you would mess the whole position keeper status. As far as I understand it, the TBT was unplugged from the TDC as soon as the position keeper started, so you can already concentrate in another target while leaving some time for the PK to check if the solution on the first target was good. If there was no position keeper working, the TBT was used as a point-and-shoot device, for situations so dire that setting up a solution in time was impossible (F.e. down the throat shots to destroyers). It also could work plugged to the TDC but not updating it completely, i.e. the TBT moved the dial of enemy ship bearing but did not update the TDC solution constantly but instead when the captain yelled "mark". That served for comparing computed solution with true bearing on the TDC (Thus the duplicated set of dials, one for observations and one for showing the current TDC output, though I think the "extra" dials could also be used for a second target solution on a second enemy, tracking two at a time)
The german TDC had no position keeper status, so the optics were more often connected to the TDC, in order to make continuous bearing updates of the target (The part the position keeper simulates), like SH3 shows.
In all the main difference, as you might have noticed already, was the position keeper. US captains fed the TDC and did ocasional corrections to what the PK was constantly updating, while german captains did those constant corrections by themselves by moving the optics following the target. Yet it was possible in both cases to choose a point-and-shoot style of firing. Note that otherwise a broken PK would leave a US submarine nearly harmless:up:
Excellent. Very good information there.:yep:
That position keeper sounds fantastic.:|\\
Hm as I see I am did not catch the manual targeting correctly, was just to much for me. I instead use automatic targeting to get speed and range for ship. Then watch it on TDC set a AOB of 90 tweak bearing a little to have some time and remember the distance from automatic feed from periscope (i put cursor in the aprox same distance as it was by auto and when Miss Shipy comes to the cursor with wanted part I throw that rock at her). Miracle is that this hits better then the automatic when the ship starts to make her panic dance :D I just wait till she is up to a turn a then send a fishy much closer to her with greater distance. It almost always hits her but with not very good angle and to far to back so I use magnetic trigger, but it manages to slow her a little. Not very good method but its just a first step to propper manual targeting for me my realism is at 45% no WO realistic ship sinking and CO2 Diesel and such. Later i will go to just manual targeting but now in GWX I am happy that I hit something from time to time :D
With this method I would be roped to a periscope by BdU in real life ;D
As I see the real life and good players use periscope bearing a lot to get the time to shoot. Were sixth sense estimatets used in war? I mean something like she should be here in 50seconds but i think she will be more 6 degrees to the port adjust solution leutenant. :)
It would be certainly nice to have 2 or more solutions at once, I dont use periscope much, only for update of ships position so this would be wonderfull for convoy attacks. Prepare two solutions, launch them, escape to the deeps.
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