GWX: Wolfpack/Elco question

[Woof1701]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before. At least I couldn't find anything useful on the topic. As far as I remember, GWX uses wolfpacks with AI uboats that can't shoot torpedoes and are mainly there to distract the enemy, right?

The Elcos and all other AI torpedo boats also lack the ability to fire torpedoes.

So my question is: "Why weren't the virtual torpedoes included in GWX?"
In my opinion it would be pretty nice to have some Elcos that are more dangerous than firing a machine gun at you, and also to have uboats (maybe even british S-class subs) that actually engage the enemy. Of couse with the AI uboats we would have to greatly limit the supply of torpedoes otherwise they'd shoot away all the targets :D

[GoldenRivet]

The first time i played SH3 one one of my first missions i was recharging my batteries on the surface in relatively calm seas but heavy rain - one of my watch crew spotted an elco charging me at about 800 meters or so. i ordered a crash dive and thought that i was done for because one torpedo from those little boats will put any U-boat on the bottom, but i learned quickly after a few similar encounters over the first months of gameplay that those little buggers cannot fire torpedos. The lack of AI torpedos in the default rendition of SH3 is a huge mistake. Several U-boats were torpedoed by either elcos or british subs and the fear of being torpedoed in some areas were surely an operational consideration that commanders had to take.

I have heard rumor that someone is working on a mod to make them fire torpedoes in GWX but that it is a lot of work.

I think it can be done... after all, late ware elcos in GWX will use hedgehogs against you with surprising accuracy.

Perhaps someone who knows about the AI torpedo mod will speak up on here???

[Madox58]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Stuff/ww41.jpg

[Woof1701]

I don't really care whether they shoot real rendered 3-D torpedoes like my boat does, or whether they shoot virtual torpedoes like in Sergbutos Mod. In subs and uboats you'd only be able to see the torpedo launches when in external cam underwater and very near the to the sub. The Elco's and DD's torpedo launchers are a different thing of course. But nevertheless the running torpedoes are more or less invisible anyway. At least the electric ones. And even though it'd be nice eye candy I prefer not to stick around and watch the enemy shoot at me :yep:

[sergbuto]

The Elcos and all other AI torpedo boats also lack the ability to fire torpedoes.

So my question is: "Why weren't the virtual torpedoes included in GWX?"
Why do you need them included in GWX? You can always download the corresponding mod from my site. According to Rubini, it works with GWX. In case, you decide to use it, do not install guns.dat, .sim, .zon and shells.dat, .sim, .zon files from download (unfortunately, I did not have time to update the download), instead take the files from my Library pack 2.0.

[sergbuto]

I think it can be done... after all, late ware elcos in GWX will use hedgehogs against you with surprising accuracy.
Elcos in GWX use hedgehogs? That is new to me. I have not seen that in the GWX manual. In this case, I wonder if any part of my PT-boats mod was used in this respect? I have no doubt that some members of the GWX team are perfectly capable of doing it, my question concerns the very files I worked on.

While I am at it, I have not seen any mentioning the dolphin mod in the acknowledgement section of the GWX manual (except for the texture). From the screenshots I saw, I got an impression that my work on the dolphin mod is included, at least partly, but I can't be sure since I do not have the files. Is that correct?

[GoldenRivet]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Stuff/ww41.jpg
message received and understood herr kaleun

[Kpt. Lehmann]

While I am it, I have not seen any mentioning the dolphin mod in the acknowledgement section of the GWX manual (except for the texture). From the screenshots I saw, I got an impression that my work on the dolphin mod is included, at least partly, but I can't be sure since I do not have the files. Is that correct?

It is my understanding that credit for the correction of the UV-Mapping, animation, sound assignment, and the new fix allowing the dolphin to follow waypoints belongs to Ref.

IIRC the dolphin texture base was TikiGod's.

I will look into it. Wouldn't want to miss crediting you if it is warranted.

[sergbuto]

Dolphin animation was already in stock SH3. That is the only thing which was.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Addenda:

IIRC the only change to the Elcos was to add more guns (no hedgehogs, etc.), We have credited Sergbuto with the Vosper MTB.

[down and out]

No H\Hogs on GWX Elcos

Could do with DC as a loadout though
Not all Elco's had Dc
Some late war ones in the USN even had rockets :o

[GoldenRivet]

yeah - i guess i was mistaken about the elcos using hedgehogs in GWX... but i know i have seen them use them before in SH3.

maybe it was RUB? or some other mod? surely it wasnt stock?

[sergbuto]

Could do with DC as a loadout though
Not all Elco's had Dc
Elcos used DCs to get rid of destroyes chaising them, not for hunting subs.

[mikaelanderlund]

The Elcos and all other AI torpedo boats also lack the ability to fire torpedoes.

So my question is: "Why weren't the virtual torpedoes included in GWX?"
Why do you need them included in GWX? You can always download the corresponding mod from my site. According to Rubini, it works with GWX. In case, you decide to use it, do not install guns.dat, .sim, .zon and shells.dat, .sim, .zon files from download (unfortunately, I did not have time to update the download), instead take the files from my Library pack 2.0.

Hi Sergbuto,

Do you mean that guns.dat, .sim, .zon and shells.dat, .sim, .zon in you Library pack is comparable with GWX files? If so that would be great:up: and I will be able to use your wolfpackmod in GWX.

Mikael

[sergbuto]

The idea of the Library pack is to make my mods independent on any setup. I have not tested this pack with GWX therefore I can only refer you to what Rubini and bigboywooly have told.

[Woof1701]

The Elcos and all other AI torpedo boats also lack the ability to fire torpedoes.

So my question is: "Why weren't the virtual torpedoes included in GWX?"
Why do you need them included in GWX? You can always download the corresponding mod from my site. According to Rubini, it works with GWX. In case, you decide to use it, do not install guns.dat, .sim, .zon and shells.dat, .sim, .zon files from download (unfortunately, I did not have time to update the download), instead take the files from my Library pack 2.0.

Thanks a lot. I guess that also means I'll have to rename the files, since in the Library Pack 2.0 they all have an "_SB" extention to them. Right?

[sergbuto]

The Elcos and all other AI torpedo boats also lack the ability to fire torpedoes.

So my question is: "Why weren't the virtual torpedoes included in GWX?"
Why do you need them included in GWX? You can always download the corresponding mod from my site. According to Rubini, it works with GWX. In case, you decide to use it, do not install guns.dat, .sim, .zon and shells.dat, .sim, .zon files from download (unfortunately, I did not have time to update the download), instead take the files from my Library pack 2.0.

Thanks a lot. I guess that also means I'll have to rename the files, since in the Library Pack 2.0 they all have an "_SB" extention to them. Right?
No, do not rename. Use them as they are. The files are not suppossed to overwrite anything (that was the whole idea). They just add extra weapons needed for my mods to function.

[Woof1701]

Ok. Now you've lost me. As far as I understood it the game needs a reference where to search for let's say "gun properties" and accesses the file where the data is stored. So the Wolfpack and Elco Mods would work with either gun.sim (.zon/.dat) and gun_SB.sim (.zon/.dat) files? Can't imagine how this'll work ... :doh: How does the game know whether to search in gun.sim or gun_SB.sim? Or did you simply include the wrong gun and shell files with you mods?

Another question: when I use the wolfpack mod, does that also affect the scripted wolfpacks in GWX?

[mikaelanderlund]

Ok. Now you've lost me. As far as I understood it the game needs a reference where to search for let's say "gun properties" and accesses the file where the data is stored. So the Wolfpack and Elco Mods would work with either gun.sim (.zon/.dat) and gun_SB.sim (.zon/.dat) files? Can't imagine how this'll work ... :doh: How does the game know whether to search in gun.sim or gun_SB.sim? Or did you simply include the wrong gun and shell files with you mods?

Another question: when I use the wolfpack mod, does that also affect the scripted wolfpacks in GWX?

I don't think sergbutos mod affect the scripted wolfpacks in GWX. The wolfpacks in GWX are based on typ VIIC/41 and sergbutos wolfpacs mod is based on VIIA.

Mikael

[sergbuto]

So the Wolfpack and Elco Mods would work with either gun.sim (.zon/.dat) and gun_SB.sim (.zon/.dat) files? Can't imagine how this'll work ... :doh: How does the game know whether to search in gun.sim or gun_SB.sim?
The mods will require guns.dat(.sim/.zon) you have currently in your SH3 installation and guns_SB.dat(.sim/.zon), which are to be installed with my Library pack. The game looks/searches throughout entire data\Library folder in the SH3 installation.

Another question: when I use the wolfpack mod, does that also affect the scripted wolfpacks in GWX?
No. You need to script-in the sub from my wolfpack mod to have it in campaign. It is not difficult. You will find an advice on how to do it in easy way in this thread
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94400

More info on the ways to arrange wolfpack can be also found here
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=85169&highlight=wolfpack

There should be more advices by Col7777 on this topic, but it is necessary search for them.

[Woof1701]

Great. Thanks for the information!

[Woof1701]

Now that I think about it: what would happen if I simply rename the files from you Wolfpack Mod and place them into the NSS_Uboat7c41 folder in GWX? That would eliminate the GWX wolfpack boats and spawn yours, wouldn't it?

[sergbuto]

Clever. If done correctly, should work. Let me see, if I remember correctly, you better keep the CFG file in the NSS_Uboat7c41 folder but replace others with new files. And do not rename the Turm file going to the data\Objects folder.

Alternatively, you can replace VIIc41 in the campaign files with VIIA.

One thing I've remembered though. The VIIA sub in the wolfpack mod was done before Pack3D was available and it uses the same digital IDs for the 3D mesh as VIIB. It means that if you drive VIIB and upon loading a mission AI VIIA is loaded first, you will loose the Flakwalker's cable fix (I do not remember if he did it for VIIB, though). This can be avoided by cloning the VIIA sub and corresponding Turm (conning tower) with Pack3D.

One more thing. The VIIA sub in my Wolfpack mod was designed to fire "virtual torpedoes" from relatively realistic distance to the target. The Long Gunnery mod in GWX will likely change that and the sub will probably start firing from large distances. The Long gunnery mod should not affect the PT-boats with "virtual torpedoes" though.

[Woof1701]

Clever. If done correctly, should work. Let me see, if I remember correctly, you better keep the CFG file in the NSS_Uboat7c41 folder but replace others with new files. And do not rename the Turm file going to the data\Objects folder.

Good to mention that. Thanks. I probably wouldn't have thought about it and renamed them as well. :damn:



Alternatively, you can replace VIIc41 in the campaign files with VIIA.


Manually? Or can I simply use the replace function of a text editior?
Anyway it's too much work and not JSGME compatible without replacing the whole campaign files. As soon as GWX brings out a patch I can start from scratch. I guess I keep my hands off the campaign files before I mess something up.


One thing I've remembered though. The VIIA sub in the wolfpack mod was done before Pack3D was available and it uses the same digital IDs for the 3D mesh as VIIB. It means that if you drive VIIB and upon loading a mission AI VIIA is loaded first, you will loose the Flakwalker's cable fix (I do not remember if he did it for VIIB, though). This can be avoided by cloning the VIIA sub and corresponding Turm (conning tower) with Pack3D.

Well that's not so important to me. Thanks for mentioning. I hadn't even noticed that there was something wrong with the cable before it was fixed. :rotfl:


One more thing. The VIIA sub in my Wolfpack mod was designed to fire "virtual torpedoes" from relatively realistic distance to the target. The Long Gunnery mod in GWX will likely change that and the sub will probably start firing from large distances. The Long gunnery mod should not affect the PT-boats with "virtual torpedoes" though.

Hmm. We'll see how this'll play out. Currently I'm in early 1941 and haven't run into any wolfpacks. Must have a peek at the campaign files to see where the wolfpacks are scripted in :)

There's one other thing that came to mind: the GWX wolfpacks run on the surface, your's run at periscope depth. Will your wolfpack uboats also run on the surface when I simply substitute them? Would work as well, but having them run at periscope depth and seeing them being depth charged is more realistic.

[mikaelanderlund]

Hi Woof1701,

I think the best way is to replace VIIc41 in the campaign RND files with VIIA (back up your RND file before you start to edit;) ).

just replace VIIc41 of each convoy (I think there are 10-12 convoys containing wolfpacks) and getting the group unit number right:yep: .

Segbuto, do you think this change will work? The parameters in GWX VIIc41 is not exactly the same but I don't know if that is important. Do you know?


[RndGroup xx.RndUnit yy]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=2
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=100
CrewRating=4

Mikael

[sergbuto]

Alternatively, you can replace VIIc41 in the campaign files with VIIA.


Manually? Or can I simply use the replace function of a text editior?
Anyway it's too much work and not JSGME compatible without replacing the whole campaign files. As soon as GWX brings out a patch I can start from scratch. I guess I keep my hands off the campaign files before I mess something up.
If I was introducing VIIA into GWX, I would definitely went for replacing
the subs in campaign because it is very easy and would take a few secs.
Would just open a campaign file in the text editor and use the Replace function to replace

Class=SSTypeVIIc/41 (at least that's the name I gave to the surfaced AI-boat, do not know it was kept in GWX)

with

Class=SSTypeVIIA

and save. That's it


There's one other thing that came to mind: the GWX wolfpacks run on the surface, your's run at periscope depth. Will your wolfpack uboats also run on the surface when I simply substitute them?
No, U-boats from my wolfpack mod will run submerged.

[Woof1701]

Alternatively, you can replace VIIc41 in the campaign files with VIIA.


Manually? Or can I simply use the replace function of a text editior?
Anyway it's too much work and not JSGME compatible without replacing the whole campaign files. As soon as GWX brings out a patch I can start from scratch. I guess I keep my hands off the campaign files before I mess something up.
If I was introducing VIIA into GWX, I would definitely went for replacing
the subs in campaign because it is very easy and would take a few secs.
Would just open a campaign file in the text editor and use the Replace function to replace

Class=SSTypeVIIc/41 (at least that's the name I gave to the surfaced AI-boat, do not know it was kept in GWX)

with

Class=SSTypeVIIA

and save. That's it

Ok I'll look into it. Thanks a lot.
Didn't know they just used the surfaced AI boats for the wolfpacks. Makes sense though.


There's one other thing that came to mind: the GWX wolfpacks run on the surface, your's run at periscope depth. Will your wolfpack uboats also run on the surface when I simply substitute them?
No, U-boats from my wolfpack mod will run submerged.

Very good. Thanks.

[sergbuto]

Segbuto, do you think this change will work? The parameters in GWX VIIc41 is not exactly the same but I don't know if that is important. Do you know?
The only significant difference between them is max speed.

There won't be any difference for slow convoys. For fast convoys, it depends on what unit number in the convoy they have, i.e. whether they are scripted-in in the front, mid or end of convoy.

For front, mid-convoy when 3D-rendered the subs will not be able to keep-up with the convoy speed, other ships will have to avoid collision (collision avoidance routine works for subs at the periscope depth too). This will produce disorder in the convoy, simulating the effect of attacking U-boat inside the convoy, not to mention the actual firing by the U-boat as soon as a ship is in front of the U-boat.

If U-boats are scripted-in at the end of the fast convoy, they will be gradually left behind after 3D-rendering but I am sure they will have time to fire and probably think some ships. They will definitly attract escorts in any way.

[mikaelanderlund]

Thanks sergbuto!

I will go for replacing SSTypeVIIc/41 with SSTypeVIIA:up: . Like this

[RndGroup 58.RndUnit 44]
Class=SSTypeVIIC/41
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390801
Loadout=Crew on Deck
No=1
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=100
CrewRating=2

to

[RndGroup 58.RndUnit 44]
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390801
Loadout=Crew on Deck
No=1
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=100
CrewRating=2


Do you think this simple change will work or do I need to change some parameters like Loadout=Crew on Deck to Loadout=Basic and Side=0 to Side=2?

many thanks for your help!
Mikael

[sergbuto]

I did not know, they used the Loadout thing. If I remember correctly, the game uses the generic loadout even if it does not find the specified one. Therefore, it should still work. But to make sure, I would comment out/delete the Loadout line.

Side=0 is neutral, if I remember correctly. Yes, I would use the German side, Side=2.

EDIT: On second thought, using Side=2 would probably lead to the situation when the fight would be already over by the time the player gets to the convoy because the convoy is 3D-rendered quite a few tens of kilometers from the player position, but with the Side=0 definition the AI sub won't attack or will it?

[mikaelanderlund]

I'm quite sure the will attack with side= set to 0 but I have to admit, I'm a bit confused:hmm: .

Mikael

[bigboywooly]

They will attack when set to side=0

There are lots of original units scripted that start the war
They show as side=0 still as the war goes on but they do fight as that info is taken from the defside dates

The ones you swop in the RND will still be surfaced as there is no way to set the height for the sub in the RND layer

You can always script a few groups of the VIIA submerged across the main shipping lanes in the SCR though as you can set the subs height in that layer

[mikaelanderlund]

Thanks for you info bigboywooly!

I think sergbuto's VIIA is at periscope height when set to 0 so it should work:hmm: . What do you think?

Mikael

[sergbuto]

I think sergbuto's VIIA is at periscope height when set to 0 so it should work:hmm: .
Yes, that's correct. There is actually a note in the Wolfpack mod Readme pointing out that Height in the .MIS file should be set to zero.

[Woof1701]

Hi there. Yesterday evening I tried my substitution theory, but it didn't work. Tried to start a career and the went to the museum and both time got a CTD. Will now try to script them into the RND layer.

[mikaelanderlund]

Hi Woof1701,

I think there are 20 convoys which have wolfpacks and it is very easy to edit and would take a few minutes. Are you going to delete the Loadout line? Please, let me know the result:up: .

Mikael

[Woof1701]

Will do. I think I'll first try and will not delete the loadout line and see what happens. Have to look up where the convoys with wolfpacks are first and then try to find one in a career. In my humble opinion. 20 convoys for 5 1/2 years of war is not very much even though the last convoy battle with a wolfpack was in March 1943.

[mikaelanderlund]

Will do. I think I'll first try and will not delete the loadout line and see what happens. Have to look up where the convoys with wolfpacks are first and then try to find one in a career. In my humble opinion. 20 convoys for 5 1/2 years of war is not very much even though the last convoy battle with a wolfpack was in March 1943.

I think you misunderstand me:hmm: . There are 20 convoy types (HX, SC ...) not only 20 convoys for 5 1/2 years.

Mikael

[Woof1701]

Ah ok. So I should have run across one by now :)

[sergbuto]

Hi there. Yesterday evening I tried my substitution theory, but it didn't work. Tried to start a career and the went to the museum and both time got a CTD. Will now try to script them into the RND layer.
As I said before, you substitution theory should work if everything has been done correctly. I guess I was wrong about about keeping the original CFG in the VIIc41 folder because I completely forgot about the Loadout thing (I used it myself to make the U-flak boats out of VIIc41). Naturally, the EQP file of VIIA does not have any loadout which the original CFG file refers to. I guess you need to copy and rename VIIA's CFG file as well and change the ClassName=SSTypeVIIA in the [UNIT] section to ClassName=SSTypeVIIC/41

[Woof1701]

Thanks! I'll try again then.

[Woof1701]

Tried again but wouldn't work :cry:

[mikaelanderlund]

Woof1701,

have you tried to edit the .rnd file yet?

Mikael

[Woof1701]

Woof1701,

have you tried to edit the .rnd file yet?

Mikael

Nope that was next on my list. My girlfriend will be away from Wednesday for several days. Hope I got the time then :)