[TEC]"Hidden" damage and loss of buoyancy.

[akdavis]

A number of players have reported apparent hidden damage after being attacked and subsequent loss of buoyancy with no reports or hull damage or signs of flooding in the DC screen. I had this happen as well with an S-class that had reported damage to the decoy launcher and deck gun, but would begin a tailslide as soon as I submerged. The loss of buoyancy to the back half was to the point that I could maintain the sub nearly standing on its tail using the engines. When originally attacked, the sub had taken a string of bombs across the stern shortly after diving.

Is it possible that damage and flooding of the trim and ballast tanks is modelled, but is not being reported in any way by the sim? The behavior above is fairly consistent with what you might expect. The loss of buoyancy is immediate, but not progressive. The sub seems to lose a certain percentage of its buoyancy, but this does not progress over time.

However, the loss of bouyancy is progressive with depth, leading an increasing down angle the further you dive. However, no additional damage is taken as the sub goes deeper and the same behavior can be observed with repeated dives. This is also consistent with some trim/ballast tanks being flooded. As depth increases, more and more air would be pumped into the intact tanks to compensate for compression, but this would no longer be distributed over the length of the hull.

I'm not familiar with all the files that govern damage, but are the trim/ballast tanks outside the pressure hull modelled as a distinct component?

[Mechman]

I can pretty much say for sure that the visual holes don't cause it, as I got hit by my own torpedo, tearing open the hull aft of the ballast tanks, and once the damage and flooding were fixed had no problems keeping my depth.

[akdavis]

No, I mean truly hidden damage. Nothing is reported, nothing is seen in the DC screen, and no damage is visible on the 3D model, yet your sub behaves as if a good number of its trim/ballast tanks are permanently flooded.

[Jungman]

Is that the same as was discussed in the Crash Depth Thread? I had damage rather minor, it is fixed up. But even though it shows no damage anywhere, it still sinks. The only indication if it gets bad is interior sub has water leaks graphics with no sounds or flickering lights.

If I look at the savegame .upc file, it show my hull point damage at 0.437740. I understand at once that number hits above 0.50000 you go into an unstoppable sink death spiral if you dive. At just under that number I sank very heavy, only able to get back to surface by blowing ballast. I was permantely heavy. Plus if I went down too far, say around 100 feet, it was over, the compromised hull has a lower crush depth where damge starts again to the pressure hull.

Any damage to the equipment inside the sub even though repaired to 100%, seems to act like a heavy weight on the submarine. Still testing for patch 1.2 though -so not conclusive, but seems to act like you observe.

[U-Bones]

Is that the same as was discussed in the Crash Depth Thread? I had damage rather minor, it is fixed up. But even though it shows no damage anywhere, it still sinks. The only indication if it gets bad is interior sub has water leaks graphics with no sounds or flickering lights.

If I look at the savegame .upc file, it show my hull point damage at 0.437740. I understand at once that number hits above 0.50000 you go into an unstoppable sink death spiral if you dive. At just under that number I sank very heavy, only able to get back to surface by blowing ballast. I was permantely heavy. Plus if I went down too far, say around 100 feet, it was over, the compromised hull has a lower crush depth where damge starts again to the pressure hull.

Any damage to the equipment inside the sub even though repaired to 100%, seems to act like a heavy weight on the submarine. Still testing for patch 1.2 though -so not conclusive, but seems to act like you observe.
My observation on damaged hulls is that there is NO inclination to sink at all until the hull implodes. A mere 1.5 kts can easily keep a damaged hull at requested depth. The key here though is that the damage I looked at is simply hull damage inflicted by pressure.

Every time I have heard of heavy boat, clear board syndrome it has been related to damage inflicted by the enemy, apparently repaired. This also shows up in save files as simply a pecentage of hull damage, but unlike the pressure caused damage, surfacing does not reset anything, and the boat is heavy. I have experienced this on both ends.

So I am in agreement that there probably is something damaged in an attack that is not exposed to the damage board or save file that is causing this behavior. There are a LOT of undocumented spheres and boxes in the NSS_*.zon files...

[akdavis]

Well, I will state straight up that I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that it is damage to buoyancy systems outside the pressure hull, although everything considered, I think it more likely that the damage system is just fundamentally bugged/broken. Nonetheless, it is a theory that explains the observed behavior worth exploring.

[CaptainHaplo]

Its a plausible theory - but the issue of "trim" tank damage - if implemented as your suggesting - means they really didnt think it through. IRL - trim tanks are small compared to your MBT's - they'r useful for SMALL adjusments. If one was damaged/holed - a diving officer would simply compensate as much as possible with the appropriate fore or aft MBT - letting it be vented for a slightly shorter time.

If they did it the way your thinking - and I am not saying your wrong - then they made the trim tank important enough to sink you regardless of what the MBT state is. Unless - is this thing modelling MAIN BALLAST TANK Damage????

That would explain alot - since "HULL" damage is what we think of when we consider interior flooding or crush depth. But - as I noted in the Crash Speed thread - I think we should be looking at each "room" bulkhead as the "room" itself - as the bulkhead damage is what causes leaks - not true HULL damage.

We MAY be on to something here - but then if so - and I am not savvy enough to know - how is the "hull" damage location saved?

You got me thinking your right - suppose they are looking at hull damage not only lessening your overall crush depth, but also bouyancy. If so - then the .5 figure would be an indicater that your sub has a safety bouyancy factor (which in rl they do). Hull damage would decrease that - so once you get hull damage at 50% - then your doomed to sink no matter what - barring a blowing of all tanks. Very minor damage may have no effect on your ability to remain neutrally bouyant - but damage accumulated would reflect cracks/leaks in the trim and/or MBT tanks until they get to the .5 mark - where your get a death spiral....

If so - we may have been looking at a really unexplained "feature" that has been drastically misunderstood. However - I would still want to mod it to lessen its effects. Has anyone run across any variables that could be a bouyancy factor - if so - increasing this may allow the death spiral to be changed.

Thoughts?
Good Hunting
Captain Haplo.

[CaptainHaplo]

Another thing - granted I could have edited to add it - but anyway. There has to be a bouyancy/flotabilty variable somewhere - because when a room floods it has an effect. If we can find where these variables are - they should be the key to changing the model as we want.

I cant find anything in the UPC file that jumps out at me - but they changed the sim files for each sub - could it be in there? Also - some changes to zones.cfg may hold a hint. My thought is its in the sim files somewhere.

Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo

[akdavis]

Yes, I meant to say damage to both trim AND ballast tanks. Edited above for clarity. Also, I need to reemphasize that (at least in my case), NO hull damage was reported. I had assumed that the "hull damaged" reports referred to the pressure hull. It would be very interesting to hear if anyone has experienced uncontrolled sinking on an even keel with no hull damaged reports or bulkhead damage/flooding in the DC screen. That would suggest that both fore and aft bouyancy was compromised at the same time. So far I've only experienced and seen reported loss of buoyancy aft, suggesting that rear ballast/trim tanks were destroyed.

The behavior I have observed and seen reported would seem to suggest there is a simple division into fore and aft trim/ballast tanks, if that is the actual cause. No one has reported rolling to the port or starboard, so I wouldn't think damage to either side is tracked separately.

[Jungman]

My observation on damaged hulls is that there is NO inclination to sink at all until the hull implodes. A mere 1.5 kts can easily keep a damaged hull at requested depth. The key here though is that the damage I looked at is simply hull damage inflicted by pressure.

Every time I have heard of heavy boat, clear board syndrome it has been related to damage inflicted by the enemy, apparently repaired. This also shows up in save files as simply a pecentage of hull damage, but unlike the pressure caused damage, surfacing does not reset anything, and the boat is heavy. I have experienced this on both ends.


OK. The damage I took was pure Attack damage. You are looking at Pressure Depth damage only. Thanks for clearing that up for me. It does indeed (attack damage) causes my sub to be heavy even though everthing is fixed, permanently. As you said.

Another thing - granted I could have edited to add it - but anyway. There has to be a bouyancy/flotabilty variable somewhere - because when a room floods it has an effect. If we can find where these variables are - they should be the key to changing the model as we want.

I cant find anything in the UPC file that jumps out at me - but they changed the sim files for each sub - could it be in there? Also - some changes to zones.cfg may hold a hint. My thought is its in the sim files somewhere.


I thought someone stated it seems to be as of patch 1.1 related to the Attack and Observation periscope comparment floatability stuff Zone.cfg?? Now I think they added back in more stuff in patch 1.2. Good question.

[Kataki]

In my case I was struck by a Depth charge in the rear and some how survived. I was kind of disapointed at the game when I recieved no dmg reports initially, but after managing to evade the DDs I had to blow ballast when I found myself rapidly sinking to 400 + feet. Amazingly I survied and managed to hit flank speed and speed away before the DDs watch noticed me.

Heres the Depth charge hit >
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/308/dcik7.jpg

Heres what happened when I was testing my ability to dive again. Notice my props arent moving when my electrics should be kicking in. This may be due to dmg to my electrics or maybe the engines cut after a certain degree change>
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3946/pdnj2.jpg

After that test I fell to over 200 feet before managing to become neutral and then ascend.

Going to make the return journey interesting to say the least..


BTW I am still playing on 1.1 due to having lots of mods and not using the mod install tool.. and being lazy

[gdavison]

I have this as well .. I took some attack damage which was "repaired" .. However The AA gun is still shown as damaged - however no amount of work seems to fix it and its still functional ..

As soon as I go to Periscope Depth, I have no Electric engines and I go into a tail slide into the depths .. If I am lucky an emergency surface can get me back up ..

Looking in the ActiveUserPlayerUnits.upc in the last save folder ... I see the sub has overall damage

[UserPlayerUnit 1]
Damage=0.295552

and also numerous examples of Damage being zero and there being remaining repair time .. which does not seem correct ??? Or does it ???

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 1.WeaponSlot 3.Weapon]
ID=DecoyLaunchTube
Damage=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000--88--70 23:57:33

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2]
ID=PorpoiseEnginesRoom
Damage=0.000000
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000-00-00 00:12:15


[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 1.Equipment]
ID=Bulkhead
Damage=0.000000
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000--88--70 23:59:41

[SirHendrik]

For those, who are capable of the german language, this problem is currently addressed here http://forums-de.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9001092274/m/3581002255/p/1

Current state:
The sub has two types of damage:
Static Damage and Dynmaic Damage. Dynamic Damage is displayed within the game and can be repaired. Static damage doesn't show up. You have a stataic damage for the whole sub as mentioned a few posts above - and you have a static damage for every part of your sub, including persons.
This damage show up as DamageHitpointsConsumed in the savegame.

Currently we are writing on a "external" tool, to display the static damage of a sub from a savegame.

[CaptainHaplo]

SirHendrik - bloody brilliant mate- thanks for giving us a headsup! :up:

OK - I think maybe I have a clue here. Granted - it depends on what your aiming a mod to do - but since we have 2 different damage models here - one hull and one internal - I think I see how to change things. This is all conjecture though I will be trying it when I finish writing if time allows. Since in the UPC file of each sub there is a list of the compartments with a HP value for each - usually 200 - but not a HP value for each piece of equipment - it looks like damage in a compartment is applied on a curve or sliding scale. The bulkhead getting the brunt (simulating hull damage causing leaks) with the rest being applied semirandomly to the rest of the "equipment" in the room. If that is the case - then if you want to reduce the "static" or external and unrepairable damage without changing how the internal model works - you would just adjust the Hp for the entire sub. Since this would - apparently - only affect the crush depth and pressure damage coefficients - they could be tweaked to still give realisitic results.
On the flip side - if you wanted to modify the dynamic or internal damage - you would change the COMPARTMENT HP value without changing the overall sub strength.

Basically - it boils down to 2 models and a different set of variables controlling each. Hopefully changing whichever set involved will allow the results one wants.

In SH3 a compartment destroyed was equal to a destroyed sub. With the dual damage model - you can in theory lose 2 compartments ON THE surface and still have a chance at survival - but if you loose ONE submerged you are also losing 1/3 of your total hull/ bouyancy strength - putting you REALLY close to going down no matter what - since at a loss of 50% you death spiral. And since you can "repair" the room - but not the associated hull damage - we see why "healthy" subs still have severe angles and control problems. In reality - this could also explain the "BUG" some people saw early when they would get damaged - fix things - and then dive without an ability to recover - if the damage sustained and then repaired was over half the hp value of the sub.

In the end = this is going to take some work balancing the internal compartment HP values, the "whole sub" values, the pressure/damage variables, as well as the damage amounts for all the weapons in the game to get things where you may want it. Unless someone can find, or one of the devs can point us to, a variable that affects how damage carries over from external to internal. Right now - it looks to have a 1:1 ratio or higher (internal damage equal to or higher than what is applied externally). That would be a godsend if we could play with it. But I doubt thats something we could get to.

On a side note - it was earlier posted that someone thought they knew where the "Armor" variable that is actually used went (as the ones in zones seems not to be used any longer) - anyone want to share????

Note - in case you havent noticed - I ramble when I brainstorm

Good Hunting
Captain Haplo

[CaptainHaplo]

I have this as well .. I took some attack damage which was "repaired" .. However The AA gun is still shown as damaged - however no amount of work seems to fix it and its still functional ..

As soon as I go to Periscope Depth, I have no Electric engines and I go into a tail slide into the depths .. If I am lucky an emergency surface can get me back up ..

Looking in the ActiveUserPlayerUnits.upc in the last save folder ... I see the sub has overall damage

[UserPlayerUnit 1]
Damage=0.295552

and also numerous examples of Damage being zero and there being remaining repair time .. which does not seem correct ??? Or does it ???

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 1.WeaponSlot 3.Weapon]
ID=DecoyLaunchTube
Damage=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000--88--70 23:57:33

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2]
ID=PorpoiseEnginesRoom
Damage=0.000000
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000-00-00 00:12:15


[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 1.Equipment]
ID=Bulkhead
Damage=0.000000
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000--88--70 23:59:41

Mate - there are some bugs still in the damage handling - try changing the damage to 1.0 - or set the repair time to read all 0's - and see if your engines kick up and if your gun still shows damaged. If so - then we will have a workaround at least until this issue gets resolved.
Of course - make a backup of the original and try each fix seperately. If you would - let us know the results as well!
Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo

[U-Bones]

On a side note - it was earlier posted that someone thought they knew where the "Armor" variable that is actually used went (as the ones in zones seems not to be used any longer) - anyone want to share????
I mentioned this when I was looking at Crash depth and crash speed and how they interacted with hull damage. I promptly proved myself mistaken after making that comment. I thought Armor had been split up among these UPC fields
CrewExposure=0.3
EquipmentsExposure=0.1
WeaponsExposure=0.1
Playing around with these did not produce the behavior I expected and I gave up on that angle. At the end of the day , I have no interest in making the sub tougher anyway - I just want damage control to work sanely without having to buff the sub.

[gdavison]

Mate - there are some bugs still in the damage handling - try changing the damage to 1.0 - or set the repair time to read all 0's - and see if your engines kick up and if your gun still shows damaged. If so - then we will have a workaround at least until this issue gets resolved.
Of course - make a backup of the original and try each fix seperately. If you would - let us know the results as well!
Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo
edited the ActiveUserPlayerUnits.upc

Set all the sections so that
Damage=0.0000
And
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
And
RemainingRepairTime=0000-00-00 00:00:00
And
CriticalFlotation=1.000000
And
FloodingLevel=0.000000
And
FloodingTime=0000-00-00 00:00:00
And
FloodingSpeed=0.000000

And as we come out of black screen please wait I get we are taking damage . the guys in teh control room are still repairing stuff and if I go to periscope depth I tail slide into the depths again .. so there must be something in another file

I am running patch 1.1 .. so am going to upgrade to 1.2 and then delete profile and see what 1.2 gives

[U-Bones]

Mate - there are some bugs still in the damage handling - try changing the damage to 1.0 - or set the repair time to read all 0's - and see if your engines kick up and if your gun still shows damaged. If so - then we will have a workaround at least until this issue gets resolved.
Of course - make a backup of the original and try each fix seperately. If you would - let us know the results as well!
Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo
edited the ActiveUserPlayerUnits.upc

Set all the sections so that
Damage=0.0000
And
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
And
RemainingRepairTime=0000-00-00 00:00:00
And
CriticalFlotation=1.000000
And
FloodingLevel=0.000000
And
FloodingTime=0000-00-00 00:00:00
And
FloodingSpeed=0.000000

And as we come out of black screen please wait I get we are taking damage . the guys in teh control room are still repairing stuff and if I go to periscope depth I tail slide into the depths again .. so there must be something in another file

I am running patch 1.1 .. so am going to upgrade to 1.2 and then delete profile and see what 1.2 gives
CriticalFloatation is drived from Critic Floation in zones.cfg and is intended to be a fraction. Equipment that does not experience flooding has a range of values in zones.cfg, but in truth they are meaningless for everthing except the periscopes. In SH3 it was the percentage of compartment damage that would trigger flooding... dunno what is it now, flooding occurs on both sides of this number - but it appears only with compartments in the save file - not equipment.

Edit the Critic Floataion of both of your two periscopes in zones.cfg to a weird easy to spot value - .321123 for example. After that EVERY new boat save file will use that value for the criticalfloatation on EVERY compartment.

The default value for this is .300000, not 1.0
Again, no idea what this does anymore, but just for your testing info.

zones.cfg added sub compartments in 1.2. It is interesting that most of the apparent changes seem to be ignored as far as save files go, floatability is not trackable to the upc save file, and may be used, but the flooding speed changes are totally ignored. This is still set for every compartment from the periscopes values.