View Full Version : TDC vs Position Keeper discussion
If I can even call it TDC ops... more like PK ops.
That stupid Position Keeper :damn: is totally taking me out of this game.
Am I wrong, or is there absolutly no way to aim a torpedo in this game using the TBT or scope crosshair to point at spots on a target? If you're not aware, after setting AoB in this game the scope has no aiming purpose. :down:
It's like the scope and the PK are happily existing in their own seperate worlds. Someone please tell me there's some way to get my bearings into the TDC without the PK standing in my way.
Are you tellin me US sub captains couldn't use the scope to transmit 0 speed lookdown shootdown solutions to the TDC?
Don't bother to mention Neal's movie. I saw it, it just irritates me... we shouldn't have to play the game like this.
In SH3 I only needed one solution to sink an entire convoy, in this game you need a different solution for every targetted spot on the ship.
Now I guess I know why Dic O'Kane had his TDC operator holding the bearing constant while he held the scope steady and fired at different points on the ships as they passed the wire.
Right now, I think the only way I could even attempt to mimic Dic O'Kane would be to create an exact solution for just in front of the bow of the ship, allow the PK to track it to some point, set the TDC dial to 0 speed but don't transmit to the PK, let PK continue to track... Then when I'm ready to fire, fire 1, transmit 0 speed to PK, wait 2 seconds, fire2, wait 2 seconds fire3, and so forth. Setting speed to zero like that is the only way I can figure out how to tell my TDC guy to hold the bearing constant.
While I'm here, might as well ask... How do you make more than one tube ready to fire (open the tube doors) I only seem to be able to open em one-by-one?
Look at the mods section for a fix for the torpedo doors.
Ok, sorry but TDC worked like that in real life. The scope and TBT were used to read the initial bearing but not directly linked to the TDC. In fact the scope was not linked to the TDC in u-boats either so SH3 has it wrong.
mookiemookie
04-18-07, 07:17 AM
The PK targets the "locked on" portion of the ship. To aim for certain parts of it, use the degree offset dial. For instance, if the periscope locks on the center stack of the ship, and you want to put a shot right under the bridge, unlock your periscope, move it over to where you want your torpedo to hit and note the change in bearing from the original "locked on" position. The degree change is the offset you use.
As joea mentioned, this is the way the TDC worked in real life.
Look at the mods section for a fix for the torpedo doors.
Ok, sorry but TDC worked like that in real life. The scope and TBT were used to read the initial bearing but not directly linked to the TDC. In fact the scope was not linked to the TDC in u-boats either so SH3 has it wrong.
Joea do you have a reference for that?
Because on page 92 of "Type VII U-Boats" by Rober C Stern it has the following quote
"Both the attack periscope and the UZO were linked to the mechanical analog attack computer."
AVGWarhawk
04-18-07, 07:35 AM
The TDC works fine. I find more of a problem solver than anything. I can see where my calculations are off and I can then reset. My biggest obstacle is the speed calculations. I can determine this somewhat easily by watching the AOB dial. If it is change radically as compared to the vessel on the scope, the I know it is off. As far as convoys, once you speed is set and AOB, you just need to get the distance for the next ship you are going after. Update the TDC and your good to go. Not as slick as the German version, but it works.
Sounds like you have read up on the submarines, you probably noticed that they constantly popped up the scope getting bearings and speed. They did this all the way up to the point of firing. In reality, if you get the PK dead on, you can fire your torpedoes with scope down (many keep it up so as to see the torpedo at work).
You can also just point and shoot if you want. Leave the TDC off! Don't give up, it works!
Look at the mods section for a fix for the torpedo doors.
Ok, sorry but TDC worked like that in real life. The scope and TBT were used to read the initial bearing but not directly linked to the TDC. In fact the scope was not linked to the TDC in u-boats either so SH3 has it wrong.
Joea do you have a reference for that?
Because on page 92 of "Type VII U-Boats" by Rober C Stern it has the following quote
"Both the attack periscope and the UZO were linked to the mechanical analog attack computer."
Oops sorry I was confused. :oops: I was thinking of the fact the German TDC did not update with a PK but was preset for a solution.
Roger - No problemo.
Its OK to be confused - anyone not confused hasnt gone over enough data. :yep:
aaronblood,
There is a way around it, just don't use the PK part of the TDC. For Convoy attacks in SH3 and Sh4 I like to set up ahead of time and wait for the ship to pass my predetermined solution. It goes something like this.....
1) Line up perpendicular to the Convoy course
2) Pick a point from the perpendicular in which you want to fire from (20 deg off usually works for me....this usually results inthe torp making close to a 90 deg impact for most convoys, 30 deg worsk better for fast convoys)
3) Point your scope down this bearing
4) Enter the "expected AOB" for this bearing and the speed into the dial and send them to the TDC....do not lock in the PK....you won't be using it. You can send the distance but this is arbitrary and is only really useful for determining the speed.
5) Wait for the ship to pass into your scope and fire. You can fire at any part of the ship that enters the cross hairs and if your solution was acurate then it should hit close to that part of the ship. Also you can hit any part of any ship that passes through your cross hairs no matter what line in the convoy they are in (because the distance is irrelevant).
Inaccuracies in your solution do become more apparent the further the target is away from you. This works good so long as you don't move your scope or at least return it to the same heading before firing. Using this method you can typically fire off a couple of fish at 2-3 merchants in varying ranks/files that pass through your cross hairs and then start to dive deep to reload and get ahead of the convoy and set up for round 2.
Hope this helps
7Enigma
04-18-07, 08:37 AM
While I'm here, might as well ask... How do you make more than one tube ready to fire (open the tube doors) I only seem to be able to open em one-by-one?
Do you mean click once to open several tubes or be able to have more than one open at a time?
When I'm about to launch on several ships at once I click tube one, hit q, wait 2 seconds until I see the tube has been opened in the comments, then click tube two, hit q, wait, click tube three, hit q, etc. It takes all of 20 seconds to open up the majority of the tubes and then they can be "rapid" fired. I don't see a problem with this method. :hmm:
WernerSobe
04-18-07, 09:43 AM
If I can even call it TDC ops... more like PK ops.
That stupid Position Keeper :damn: is totally taking me out of this game.
Am I wrong, or is there absolutly no way to aim a torpedo in this game using the TBT or scope crosshair to point at spots on a target? If you're not aware, after setting AoB in this game the scope has no aiming purpose. :down:
You can aim at different parts of the target using the position keeper. Youre just used to sh3 where you have to aim with crosshair for different parts. US optics works little different and are actualy more accurate if used properly.
You have to use spread angle when youre aiming for special parts not the crosshair.
Its best explained with an example. Lets say you lock on a Heavy Cruiser and want to place a torpedo right under its main battery which is about first third of the ship. You must now count the horizontal periscope marks from the center to the point you want to hit. Each mark is 1° in low zoom and 0,25° in high zoom. So lets say its 6 marks in high zoom and the target goes from left to right. You must set spread angle 1,5° to the right.
Another option is just like SH3. You dont have to use the position keeper. Its just a nice tool to "predict" your firing solution and make it more accurate for longer period of time. If you want to get off a quickie just let the position keeper off. Set up a solution and aim with crosshair.
I really don't understand many of these TDC complaints. The TDC is maybe my favorite part of this game :hmm:
And I do find it a LOT more efficient than SHIII, too - couldn't hit a thing manually in that game at over 1km, but here I've already managed to score a few kills at 2000-2500 yards.
Or simply ignore the Position Keeper, and plug into the TDC a solution for when the target crosses f.e. 25º off your bow. Aim the scope there and when the desired part of the ship crosses the wire, fire the torpedo.
First off, thanks to all for the feedback, since I'm still searching for my "zone" with this targeting gizmo I'm glad for any and all feedback/suggestions.
AVGWarhawk first... I need to followup with you on a couple of your comments.
The TDC works fine. I find more of a problem solver than anything. I can see where my calculations are off and I can then reset. My biggest obstacle is the speed calculations. I can determine this somewhat easily by watching the AOB dial. If it is change radically as compared to the vessel on the scope, the I know it is off. As far as convoys, once you speed is set and AOB, you just need to get the distance for the next ship you are going after. Update the TDC and your good to go. Not as slick as the German version, but it works.
When you say you can "see where your calculations are off", is that because you're checking the solution on the attack map vs. a map update plot? ...or are you sayin, you just tell from the attack map solution whether or not it looks right.
As for your comments on convoy solutions, if I understand the thing correctly, you need more than distance, you'd need a new AoB as well... If you had a lead target and just changed the distance for another in tandem, your solution will pass well ahead of the second target, unless you update AoB. Again, the scope does not functioning as an aiming device.
Sounds like you have read up on the submarines, you probably noticed that they constantly popped up the scope getting bearings and speed. They did this all the way up to the point of firing. In reality, if you get the PK dead on, you can fire your torpedoes with scope down (many keep it up so as to see the torpedo at work).
You can also just point and shoot if you want. Leave the TDC off! Don't give up, it works!
Yes, I've read many books on fleetboats and uboats, history, tactics and so forth...
By leave the TDC off, do you mean never send a value to the PK? ...or are you sayin as long as I toggle off the red light on the PK it defaults back to point and shoot? cuz I don't think it does, I've tried it. I've fired fish with the PK disengaged and scope on a zero bearing and watched three or more fish all take 90° turns toward a supposedly disengaged PK solution.
Yeah, they popped up, took extremely brief peeks and kept on the attack submerged. I actually thought I'd really like that and attempted an interesting tactic to exploit such features. I came up immediately astern of a target, matched it's speed, got the distance, bearing 0°, AoB was a no brainer 180°, then I submerged with the PK tracking. I was planning a submerged end around, and I briefly popped the scope up to check the target vs. PK. Was working GREAT until I got about 20° ahead of the target, at which time the PK just disengaged... :damn:
I'm gonna keep searching for how best to exploit the thing. I'll stick with it, just right now I'm fightin against it more than anything.
AVGWarhawk
04-18-07, 08:12 PM
First off, thanks to all for the feedback, since I'm still searching for my "zone" with this targeting gizmo I'm glad for any and all feedback/suggestions.
AVGWarhawk first... I need to followup with you on a couple of your comments.
The TDC works fine. I find more of a problem solver than anything. I can see where my calculations are off and I can then reset. My biggest obstacle is the speed calculations. I can determine this somewhat easily by watching the AOB dial. If it is change radically as compared to the vessel on the scope, the I know it is off. As far as convoys, once you speed is set and AOB, you just need to get the distance for the next ship you are going after. Update the TDC and your good to go. Not as slick as the German version, but it works.
When you say you can "see where your calculations are off", is that because you're checking the solution on the attack map vs. a map update plot? ...or are you sayin, you just tell from the attack map solution whether or not it looks right.
As for your comments on convoy solutions, if I understand the thing correctly, you need more than distance, you'd need a new AoB as well... If you had a lead target and just changed the distance for another in tandem, your solution will pass well ahead of the second target, unless you update AoB. Again, the scope does not functioning as an aiming device.
Sounds like you have read up on the submarines, you probably noticed that they constantly popped up the scope getting bearings and speed. They did this all the way up to the point of firing. In reality, if you get the PK dead on, you can fire your torpedoes with scope down (many keep it up so as to see the torpedo at work).
You can also just point and shoot if you want. Leave the TDC off! Don't give up, it works!
Yes, I've read many books on fleetboats and uboats, history, tactics and so forth...
By leave the TDC off, do you mean never send a value to the PK? ...or are you sayin as long as I toggle off the red light on the PK it defaults back to point and shoot? cuz I don't think it does, I've tried it. I've fired fish with the PK disengaged and scope on a zero bearing and watched three or more fish all take 90° turns toward a supposedly disengaged PK solution.
Yeah, they popped up, took extremely brief peeks and kept on the attack submerged. I actually thought I'd really like that and attempted an interesting tactic to exploit such features. I came up immediately astern of a target, matched it's speed, got the distance, bearing 0°, AoB was a no brainer 180°, then I submerged with the PK tracking. I was planning a submerged end around, and I briefly popped the scope up to check the target vs. PK. Was working GREAT until I got about 20° ahead of the target, at which time the PK just disengaged... :damn:
I'm gonna keep searching for how best to exploit the thing. I'll stick with it, just right now I'm fightin against it more than anything.
Question one: I do not use the attack map at all. Reason, if find it useless and it still shows in 100m and I'm running Imperial. After I set up initial PK and have it rolling. I watch my AOB dial. If this is changing radically to what I see in the scope then I know my speed is off. I make my adjustments. Either lower or increase the speed setting. In short, if I set 90 degrees on the dial and I look a minute later, my target in the scope is still at 90 degrees but my dial is showing say 110 degrees, my speed is to fast on the PK. I slow it down two kts on the PK and set it again. Wait for a minute and recheck. If my dial has not changed radically to what I see in the scope, my speed calculation is pretty good. I used the PK tonight on targets coming across my bow from both port and starboard. It worked perfectly. Also, fast torpedoes are now fast. The PK has to stay to what you see in your scope/TBT. If not, you have a bad solution. It is just what it is a position keeper. If any of your inputs are incorrect then the keeper will look nothing like you see in the scope/TBT. The hardest calculation is speed and probably the top in the list of things to screw up your solution.
Question two: For point and shoot, you need to feed the AOB and the speed. I have only used this twice and do not recall if I turned the PK on or not. I do recall that it does work. I will have to play with it and you likewise.
Keep at it, it does work and you have to train your brain to input what your eye is seeing to the PK. Do your best to make it match what you see. Also, the closer to the target the clearer the solution is seen and easier to obtain. Get to within 1500 yards or closer. It is just a dumb merchant after all. Once you see the TDC do it's thing by your inputs, it is an awesome feeling.
Also, I'm not Deadeye Dick either. I get plenty of misses and the usual dud. I'm just glad they fixed the TDC for targets coming in on your port and fast torpedoes now work. Don't give up the ship Skipper! Took me hours of play to figure this bugger out:yep:
Don't give up the ship Skipper! Took me hours of play to figure this bugger out:yep:
Yeah... I'm at a bit of a disadvantage there... I haven't been able to play the game at all until 1.2 was released, so I'm really just starting to cut my teeth now.
I'm switching to manual tragetting now that the TDC is reasonably fixed. With all the CTDs, etc, it didn't make sense to waste limited time with solutions only on 1 side of the ship, etc.
I'm pulling the trigger on a new machine in a few days when the new intel chips come out, then I can dial up the eyecandy and perhaps end my BSOD nightmares by starting with a clean slate.
Another option is just like SH3. You dont have to use the position keeper. Its just a nice tool to "predict" your firing solution and make it more accurate for longer period of time. If you want to get off a quickie just let the position keeper off. Set up a solution and aim with crosshair.
Well you can setup a quick solution and hold the scope steady and wait for the target to pass... But if you think you're doing anything by moving the aiming wire on the scope, you're kidding yourself. If I could do that, I'd point the scope at 90° abeam to the target path, set the solution as 90° and then swing the scope to my target and let the TDC calc the AoB automatically.
While I'm here, might as well ask... How do you make more than one tube ready to fire (open the tube doors) I only seem to be able to open em one-by-one?
Do you mean click once to open several tubes or be able to have more than one open at a time?
When I'm about to launch on several ships at once I click tube one, hit q, wait 2 seconds until I see the tube has been opened in the comments, then click tube two, hit q, wait, click tube three, hit q, etc. It takes all of 20 seconds to open up the majority of the tubes and then they can be "rapid" fired. I don't see a problem with this method. :hmm:
I'll test that... what I seemed to notice was if I went to external view and hit Q for a tube it would open... if I then selected a different tube, went to external and hit Q, the open door would close and then the new door opens? Maybe I wasn't waiting long enough? They've been working like toggle buttons for me.
aaronblood,
There is a way around it, just don't use the PK part of the TDC. For Convoy attacks in SH3 and Sh4 I like to set up ahead of time and wait for the ship to pass my predetermined solution. It goes something like this.....
1) Line up perpendicular to the Convoy course
2) Pick a point from the perpendicular in which you want to fire from (20 deg off usually works for me....this usually results inthe torp making close to a 90 deg impact for most convoys, 30 deg worsk better for fast convoys)
3) Point your scope down this bearing
4) Enter the "expected AOB" for this bearing and the speed into the dial and send them to the TDC....do not lock in the PK....you won't be using it. You can send the distance but this is arbitrary and is only really useful for determining the speed.
5) Wait for the ship to pass into your scope and fire. You can fire at any part of the ship that enters the cross hairs and if your solution was acurate then it should hit close to that part of the ship. Also you can hit any part of any ship that passes through your cross hairs no matter what line in the convoy they are in (because the distance is irrelevant).
Inaccuracies in your solution do become more apparent the further the target is away from you. This works good so long as you don't move your scope or at least return it to the same heading before firing. Using this method you can typically fire off a couple of fish at 2-3 merchants in varying ranks/files that pass through your cross hairs and then start to dive deep to reload and get ahead of the convoy and set up for round 2.
Hope this helps
Yeah, I think that's where I'm headed at the moment...
Although, I think AVGWarhawk hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that it takes time to get accustomed to relating the PK dials with the scope observations. I can see that when the observations and PK are marching in step, that it would be very rewarding, as warhawk mentioned.
I think perhaps when I get to that point I'm gonna be setting that PK to track the bow and then use O'Kane's trick of holding the bearing constant (by transmitting 0 speed after first torpedo) and then aim my spread by letting the ship drift across the stationary wire. :hmm:
Radtgaeb
04-18-07, 09:05 PM
For some reason, my biggest issue has been in the area of sending the correct range estimate to the TDC/TK. For some reason, my stadimeter readings have left me really short.
And yes, it's patched, and yes, I do make sure I have marked the correct ship in the ID book.
Onkel Neal
04-18-07, 10:06 PM
Whenever your target changes course, turn off the PK, check you have the white "off" light, then switch it back on and set up a new firing solution. I'm finding the TDC to be very accurate. Like CCIP, I have set up on stationary ships 3500 yards away and the torp goes straight to them.
For some reason, my biggest issue has been in the area of sending the correct range estimate to the TDC/TK. For some reason, my stadimeter readings have left me really short.
And yes, it's patched, and yes, I do make sure I have marked the correct ship in the ID book.
Thats because many of the stock mast heights are not correct -IE: The TDC is working off incorrect data from the ship ID book in game, so it plots a range solution consistant with its Known Mast height which if its incorrect provides an incorrect range.
Its an analog computer - Garbage in garbage out. :yep:
See Krupp's Mod that fixes this problem.
I'm finding the TDC to be very accurate. Like CCIP, I have set up on stationary ships 3500 yards away and the torp goes straight to them.
Range error wont have any effect on stationary targets - only when there moving.
Change the Mogami to a Iowa in the torpedo tutorial and see what you get.
CableRouter
04-18-07, 10:25 PM
The PK targets the "locked on" portion of the ship. To aim for certain parts of it, use the degree offset dial. For instance, if the periscope locks on the center stack of the ship, and you want to put a shot right under the bridge, unlock your periscope, move it over to where you want your torpedo to hit and note the change in bearing from the original "locked on" position. The degree change is the offset you use.
As joea mentioned, this is the way the TDC worked in real life. There is a simpler method. Do everything normally, lock on, enter AoB and speed, then enter range. Then just before you fire, unlock the scope with the L key, aim the scope at the part of the ship you want to target, then hit the transmit data button. The TDC will update the solution for the new bearing. It's a lot easier than going to the torpedo data screen and trying to input an offset manually and it shouldn't take more than a 2-3 extra seconds.
There is a simpler method. Do everything normally, lock on, enter AoB and speed, then enter range. Then just before you fire, unlock the scope with the L key, aim the scope at the part of the ship you want to target, then hit the transmit data button. The TDC will update the solution for the new bearing. It's a lot easier than going to the torpedo data screen and trying to input an offset manually and it shouldn't take more than a 2-3 extra seconds.
Two pages until someone finally brings it up. I've written about that in the past already several times, but nobody seems to read or understand it. Thank you, CableRouter.
Well, in the end, had the devs included a simple MARK button for bearing transmission like there was iRL, there would be
-more realism
-less confusion
-easier operation
The MARK button was such in integral part of the TDC that I do not understand why they didn't incooperate it and instead used "indirect" bearing transmission.
Read any book. "This is a firing observation! Stand by forward! Range 1200 yards. Bearing - MARK! Fire One!..Fire Two!...Fire Three!" "Three torpedoes fired electrically."
nattydread
04-19-07, 02:17 AM
From what I understand the poster is right. We are missing some advance functionality in the TDC and/or Periscope that would allow us to keep the TDC calculating range, speed and AoB, but allowing us to move the bearing freely.
There should be a seperate means of "marking" a new bearing without corrupting the other data. As far as I can tell, the only way to do that in game indirectly is by unlocking the target and moving the "pip" where you want it and re-sending speed data. This would only work if sending speed data is enough to input a new bearing into the TDC like range and possibly AoB does.
Either way, we need a new function called "bearing mark"...I cant believe the Devs missed that. Had the read the memoirs of some of the greates skippers ever, they'd had picked that functionality up...its a key feature!
7Enigma
04-19-07, 06:14 AM
While I'm here, might as well ask... How do you make more than one tube ready to fire (open the tube doors) I only seem to be able to open em one-by-one?
Do you mean click once to open several tubes or be able to have more than one open at a time?
When I'm about to launch on several ships at once I click tube one, hit q, wait 2 seconds until I see the tube has been opened in the comments, then click tube two, hit q, wait, click tube three, hit q, etc. It takes all of 20 seconds to open up the majority of the tubes and then they can be "rapid" fired. I don't see a problem with this method. :hmm:
I'll test that... what I seemed to notice was if I went to external view and hit Q for a tube it would open... if I then selected a different tube, went to external and hit Q, the open door would close and then the new door opens? Maybe I wasn't waiting long enough? They've been working like toggle buttons for me.
Have you actually fired the torpedoes or just looked at the external view? I've never looked to see if more than one door is open, but when I open them one at a time manually and then fire several in rapid succession they do not take near as long to fire as if I never pressed Q on each one. That to me means they are open prior to firing. It's possible the graphics just aren't showing it properly?
Yeah, I think that's where I'm headed at the moment...
Although, I think AVGWarhawk hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that it takes time to get accustomed to relating the PK dials with the scope observations. I can see that when the observations and PK are marching in step, that it would be very rewarding, as warhawk mentioned.
I think perhaps when I get to that point I'm gonna be setting that PK to track the bow and then use O'Kane's trick of holding the bearing constant (by transmitting 0 speed after first torpedo) and then aim my spread by letting the ship drift across the stationary wire. :hmm:
Ok just to be sure, you do understand the periscopes and tbt were not directly linked to the TDC in real life...you really seemed stuck in wanting to use it as a point and shoot aiming device like they were in the u-boats but were not.
Anyway that is a good procedure right there. Imagine having to play a WWI sub though...or the earliest subs or torpedo boats...for the latter the whole boat was point and fire. :lol:
Imagine having to play a WWI sub though...or the earliest subs or torpedo boats...for the latter the whole boat was point and fire. :lol:
Yeah... right now I'm just trying to deal with playing a WWII sub sim that has no ability to easily transmit or mark a new bearing.
I think nattydread and heartc are making the same observations that I have... We need a "Mark" button.
AVGWarhawk
04-19-07, 07:55 AM
For some reason, my biggest issue has been in the area of sending the correct range estimate to the TDC/TK. For some reason, my stadimeter readings have left me really short.
And yes, it's patched, and yes, I do make sure I have marked the correct ship in the ID book.
Thats because many of the stock mast heights are not correct -IE: The TDC is working off incorrect data from the ship ID book in game, so it plots a range solution consistant with its Known Mast height which if its incorrect provides an incorrect range.
Its an analog computer - Garbage in garbage out. :yep:
See Krupp's Mod that fixes this problem.
I'm finding the TDC to be very accurate. Like CCIP, I have set up on stationary ships 3500 yards away and the torp goes straight to them.
Range error wont have any effect on stationary targets - only when there moving.
Change the Mogami to a Iowa in the torpedo tutorial and see what you get.
Another thread discussion concerns the resolution you play in. I play the set standard, 1024x768. My stadi is always within 30 yards or closer. The discussion is higher resolution may not account for changes in the stadi readings. I know my stadi is reading fine because if my sonarman has the target you can ask for a ping for range. The sonarman and I are usually with in 30 yards or less of each other. With that out of the way, I concentrate on speed. Once set, vessel is as good as dead:yep:
I do not know if gameplay resolution affects the stadi but I'm thinking it is.
AVGWarhawk
04-19-07, 08:20 AM
From what I understand the poster is right. We are missing some advance functionality in the TDC and/or Periscope that would allow us to keep the TDC calculating range, speed and AoB, but allowing us to move the bearing freely.
There should be a seperate means of "marking" a new bearing without corrupting the other data. As far as I can tell, the only way to do that in game indirectly is by unlocking the target and moving the "pip" where you want it and re-sending speed data. This would only work if sending speed data is enough to input a new bearing into the TDC like range and possibly AoB does.
Either way, we need a new function called "bearing mark"...I cant believe the Devs missed that. Had the read the memoirs of some of the greates skippers ever, they'd had picked that functionality up...its a key feature!
You lost me here on this. As far as I can tell, you do not need to keep the target locked. You can put the crosshairs anywhere you want and set up a solution. The locking function is just a helper for the player because you are required to do all the TDC inputs as well, open doors, set up torpedoes, etc. In RL the Skipper is hollering out the bearing, speed etc while the TDC operator is putting in the values. The guys in forward torpedo room are doing the rest. There was no lock on the scope/TBT. Anyway, if you are in a convoy situation or a few vessels to hammer, generally the ships are all heading in the same direction and same speed. So the TDC is already set up for this. Your get your range on the first vessel you would like to sink, send out two torps, swing the scope on to the next vessel, get range and enter it, send out two more torps. Sit back and what for the party. For the most part and the USS Cod readings will tell you, selection of certain ships within the convoy was obtainable. Generally going after the biggest fish...carrier, fat tanker, DD. All torpedoes sent after the one target, if course is changed in the interium, something is still going to get hit because there is nothing but a huge wall of hulls in the way of your oncoming torpedoes.
At any rate, there is only one TDC so you can not set up multiple ships on a firing solution all at once. All you really need is good AOB and speed. Send out torps on the first target, get range on the next target, fire. Attempt to bring your stern tubes to bear.
At any rate, I'm lost as to the "Mark Bearing". As far as I can tell, the Skipper called this out along with speed and AOB. The skipper was the connection to the TDC, not the scope. So if you are saying we should be able to unlock and still set up the TDC to any part of the vessel or leading the vessel, then I understand what you are getting at. It might be possible in the game. I will have to check next time I play.
AVGWarhawk
04-19-07, 08:26 AM
From CCIP
Yep, closer is better!
Although at below 1km, I generally don't need TDC - I trained in SHIII to do those hip shots by just leading a ship with my scope firing on my scope bearing. In SHIV, I just do it by zeroing out speed and AoB, maxing out the range, and then turning my scope to whatever bearing and clicking the 'send range to TDC' button, which sets me up to fire on that bearing.
Works quite well, too.
Here is the answer on manual TDC, point and shoot. Note CCIP said he can point the scope anywhere, hit the send range button (Bearing Mark) and firing.:yep:
@AVG Warhawk: Forget about all this scope "lock" stuff, has nothing to do with it.
Point is, IRL the skipper hit the Mark Button to transmit the bearing the scope/TBT (Target BEARING Transmitter) was looking at *in this moment* to the TDC / PK. Or the bearing was read out by the XO and "Marked" by the TDC operator. As it is in SHIV, the bearing will only be transmitted when you transmit any other data like speed, AOB or range (some say it will only be transmitted with range, though I'm not sure about that) - there is no seperate Mark Button for it. At first glance it might seem it is the way it is for comfort ("one less button to hit"), though it is in fact annoying when you want to aim at specific parts of the target via the crosshairs, or when you want to send the latest bearing to the TDC just before firing, which was SOP iRL. Because even if your fire solution might be not so good, when you update the bearing just before you fire, the "time" until your solution error will matter again starts anew, since the error increases with time.
Here is the answer on manual TDC, point and shoot. Note CCIP said he can point the scope anywhere, hit the send range button (Bearing Mark) and firing.:yep:
Yep, this is the workaround to the missing Mark button, but it can be annoying since it takes a while which kinda makes it hard to mark this or that specific part of the target. It should only be one click, w/o any worry about "taking range" (again).
XanderF
04-19-07, 11:20 AM
Here is the answer on manual TDC, point and shoot. Note CCIP said he can point the scope anywhere, hit the send range button (Bearing Mark) and firing.:yep:
Yep, this is the workaround to the missing Mark button, but it can be annoying since it takes a while which kinda makes it hard to mark this or that specific part of the target. It should only be one click, w/o any worry about "taking range" (again).
But when the skipper is calling out "Mark", the range and AoB information is already entered.
As far as I can tell, there is no difference between the skipper IRL calling out "mark", and us simply sliding out the TDC 'thingy' in the upper right and re-transmitting information. Granted, it ALSO re-transmits the set range, AoB, and speed...which, I guess, is 'unrealistic', but...what does it matter? We didn't change those values, so...??? It shouldn't effect anything in the solution but the new bearing?
AVGWarhawk
04-19-07, 11:27 AM
@AVG Warhawk: Forget about all this scope "lock" stuff, has nothing to do with it.
Point is, IRL the skipper hit the Mark Button to transmit the bearing the scope/TBT (Target BEARING Transmitter) was looking at *in this moment* to the TDC / PK. Or the bearing was read out by the XO and "Marked" by the TDC operator. As it is in SHIV, the bearing will only be transmitted when you transmit any other data like speed, AOB or range (some say it will only be transmitted with range, though I'm not sure about that) - there is no seperate Mark Button for it. At first glance it might seem it is the way it is for comfort ("one less button to hit"), though it is in fact annoying when you want to aim at specific parts of the target via the crosshairs, or when you want to send the latest bearing to the TDC just before firing, which was SOP iRL. Because even if your fire solution might be not so good, when you update the bearing just before you fire, the "time" until your solution error will matter again starts anew, since the error increases with time.
Ok, got it. This is were I'm still lost. All the bearings/AOB/speed was called out by the Skipper. Inputs done by the TDC operator. German boats had a connection from the UZO/scope to the TDC if I'm not mistaken. So it is to my understanding that we can not holler out bearing etc. while in game but we have the simulated TDC while in the scope/TBT. So since we can not holler out to the TDC operator, we play Skipper and TDC operator all at the same time. My confusion is, were does this extra button come in? As far a I can tell you can put the crosshairs were you want, click the update button on the range/AOB/speed set up and this acts like you are hollering out your bearing to the TDC operator.
AVGWarhawk
04-19-07, 11:32 AM
Here is the answer on manual TDC, point and shoot. Note CCIP said he can point the scope anywhere, hit the send range button (Bearing Mark) and firing.:yep:
Yep, this is the workaround to the missing Mark button, but it can be annoying since it takes a while which kinda makes it hard to mark this or that specific part of the target. It should only be one click, w/o any worry about "taking range" (again).
But when the skipper is calling out "Mark", the range and AoB information is already entered.
As far as I can tell, there is no difference between the skipper IRL calling out "mark", and us simply sliding out the TDC 'thingy' in the upper right and re-transmitting information. Granted, it ALSO re-transmits the set range, AoB, and speed...which, I guess, is 'unrealistic', but...what does it matter? We didn't change those values, so...??? It shouldn't effect anything in the solution but the new bearing?
Exaclty, we play both TDC operator and Skipper. If I move my scope/TBT anywhere around the ship, click on the TDC wheel in the upper right corner this would equate to saying "Mark Bearing". Torpedo should track this. SH3 was the the same. Put the crosshairs were you want, click update and solution was changed to that new input.
This is how it looks to me.
XanderF
04-19-07, 12:47 PM
Exaclty, we play both TDC operator and Skipper. If I move my scope/TBT anywhere around the ship, click on the TDC wheel in the upper right corner this would equate to saying "Mark Bearing". Torpedo should track this. SH3 was the the same. Put the crosshairs were you want, click update and solution was changed to that new input.
This is how it looks to me.
So...it's working fine, no? Don't 'lock' the target, and just press the 'update' button when your periscope is pointing at the bearing you want ('mark' that bearing), and...it should be working fine?
AVGWarhawk
04-19-07, 12:50 PM
Exaclty, we play both TDC operator and Skipper. If I move my scope/TBT anywhere around the ship, click on the TDC wheel in the upper right corner this would equate to saying "Mark Bearing". Torpedo should track this. SH3 was the the same. Put the crosshairs were you want, click update and solution was changed to that new input.
This is how it looks to me.
So...it's working fine, no? Don't 'lock' the target, and just press the 'update' button when your periscope is pointing at the bearing you want ('mark' that bearing), and...it should be working fine?
This is how I'm reading it from CCIP post. Only one way to find out for sure....fire up the game and see how she goes:up:. Now, I did this with my stern tubes once and I do not recall the sequence of button pushing etc. I suspect you can update anywhere you want with the scope/TBT just like SH3. I'm going to try tonight.
As far as I can tell, there is no difference between the skipper IRL calling out "mark", and us simply sliding out the TDC 'thingy' in the upper right and re-transmitting information. Granted, it ALSO re-transmits the set range, AoB, and speed...which, I guess, is 'unrealistic', but...what does it matter? We didn't change those values, so...??? It shouldn't effect anything in the solution but the new bearing?
The fact that you did not change those values IS the problem... Remember, those values that you didn't change were a correct solution for a time in the past, the PK has been tracking and adjusting those values for you over time. You don't want to resubmit any of those old values, all you want to do is update the bearing.
You lost me here on this. As far as I can tell, you do not need to keep the target locked. You can put the crosshairs anywhere you want and set up a solution. The locking function is just a helper for the player because you are required to do all the TDC inputs as well, open doors, set up torpedoes, etc. In RL the Skipper is hollering out the bearing, speed etc while the TDC operator is putting in the values..
IRL the skipper might also say, "hold the bearing constant". Granted... for that we can transmit zero speed.
Anyway, if you are in a convoy situation or a few vessels to hammer, generally the ships are all heading in the same direction and same speed. So the TDC is already set up for this. Your get your range on the first vessel you would like to sink, send out two torps, swing the scope on to the next vessel, get range and enter it, send out two more torps. Sit back and what for the party.
Lemme ask this question then... after you launch on first target. You spin the scope to trailing target, enter new range. When you enter the new range, I guess that must also update bearing? That's good, but does it also sharpen the AoB? No, but that actually would be very nice! I'd be very pleased if someone told me I was wrong on that one. Unfortunately, I suspect it will leave the AoB continuously opening... in which case if you had a target on say a 270 heading and then you swung to trailing target and updated range it would leave the AoB opening and your second solution would have the PK thinking the next guy was on maybe a 320 heading. I suspect you're still having some success with this because 1) targets are moving slow 2) you're at relatively close range so +/- 10° on the AoB isn't totally killin ya.
For the most part and the USS Cod readings will tell you, selection of certain ships within the convoy was obtainable. Generally going after the biggest fish...carrier, fat tanker, DD. All torpedoes sent after the one target, if course is changed in the interium, something is still going to get hit because there is nothing but a huge wall of hulls in the way of your oncoming torpedoes.
At any rate, there is only one TDC so you can not set up multiple ships on a firing solution all at once. All you really need is good AOB and speed. Send out torps on the first target, get range on the next target, fire. Attempt to bring your stern tubes to bear.
At any rate, I'm lost as to the "Mark Bearing". As far as I can tell, the Skipper called this out along with speed and AOB. The skipper was the connection to the TDC, not the scope. So if you are saying we should be able to unlock and still set up the TDC to any part of the vessel or leading the vessel, then I understand what you are getting at. It might be possible in the game. I will have to check next time I play.
I have a concept in my head of what I'd like a bearing transmitter to do. It could very well be that it's not realistic. I can't really tell from reading all the books what the TDC guys and/or PK was actually doing when the skipper said "Bearing, Mark". I don't have first hand knowledge of the apparatus nor do I know anyone who could say they do, so I'm not gonna pretend or profess that something worked a certain way when I just don't know.
That aside... what I would like a bearing transmitter to do is this. Let's assume I have a fairly good solution. My AoB is good, my speed is off but not too far off, maybe 1 knot. Over time, because I'm off by 1kt on the speed, the solution slips to the stern of the ship. If I fire my torpedos they I know they will miss astern, no doubt. I have to adjust my solution.
At this point, you would say "just update the distance to target". OK, good, distance is updated, bearing is adjusted, new bearing looks good, distance is right, AoB needed to open up a bit... it didn't. If the target was on a 270 heading and I followed the steps above, the PK would now be tracking as if the target was maybe 235... I have to now manually adjust the AoB as well.
It would be nice if you had a Mark button that would allow you to update the bearing and the PK says, "Oh, the ship isn't as close as I thought" and changed bearing but also opened the AoB such that the tracking PK solution is still on the 270 base course, and also adjusted distance accordingly. Basically, just a shift forward or back in the projected target path.
I accept the possibility that I may be asking for a feature here that didn't exist... I honestly don't know how the thing worked in reality. But do not think for a second that I don't fully understand the trig behind the torpedo solution, or more specifically, the "constant bearing" formula.
If someone knows for sure, that what I've described just wasn't a feature, I'm OK with that. But please, if you don't have first or second hand knowledge, or at least some decent resource to point to as a reference please don't post on the thread, "Nah it didn't work like that IRL".
Assuming for a moment that the mark button I've described was just not a feature... then I think I'm OK with the retransmit distance as a workaround for now. I do still wish that I could quickly change bearing without also effecting distance on the PK though. I'd even settle for half... gimme just a bearing update option (that doesn't effect or require me to re-enter distance) and I'll take care of the manual AoB tweaking.
Ya know now that I talk it thru a bit... maybe it does do some of this and I'm just missin it at the moment... need to go play for awhile and stop typing.
Ya know, a halfway decent manual explaining how the blasted gadgets in the game worked would probably go along way to shortening these threads.
XanderF
04-20-07, 12:35 AM
As far as I can tell, there is no difference between the skipper IRL calling out "mark", and us simply sliding out the TDC 'thingy' in the upper right and re-transmitting information. Granted, it ALSO re-transmits the set range, AoB, and speed...which, I guess, is 'unrealistic', but...what does it matter? We didn't change those values, so...??? It shouldn't effect anything in the solution but the new bearing?
The fact that you did not change those values IS the problem... Remember, those values that you didn't change were a correct solution for a time in the past, the PK has been tracking and adjusting those values for you over time. You don't want to resubmit any of those old values, all you want to do is update the bearing.
Hmm...I see. I guess it wouldn't be hard to pull out the PK panel (upper left) and use it to adjust the observation panel (upper right) to the 'correct' range and AoB before submitting the new bearing.
I think I see your point, though. You want to 'keep' the AoB, speed, and range currently entered into the PK, and just update the bearing.
:hmm: Good discussion here though! :up:
Whenever your target changes course, turn off the PK, check you have the white "off" light, then switch it back on and set up a new firing solution. I'm finding the TDC to be very accurate. Like CCIP, I have set up on stationary ships 3500 yards away and the torp goes straight to them.
Heheheh... somehow I missed this post.
Hello Neal, nice video.
Apparently that's my problem... I've been trying to hit the moving ships.
Technically, if I had to critique one thing in your video I'd say you shouldn't turn the PK on until you've transmitted all 3 data points. If the PK is set for speed zero, you're OK flippin it on as you suggest. If not it's degrading your firing solution by tracking the aiming point in the wrong direction until you transmit a proper AoB.
AVGWarhawk
04-20-07, 08:37 AM
Whenever your target changes course, turn off the PK, check you have the white "off" light, then switch it back on and set up a new firing solution. I'm finding the TDC to be very accurate. Like CCIP, I have set up on stationary ships 3500 yards away and the torp goes straight to them.
Heheheh... somehow I missed this post.
Hello Neal, nice video.
Apparently that's my problem... I've been trying to hit the moving ships.
Technically, if I had to critique one thing in your video I'd say you shouldn't turn the PK on until you've transmitted all 3 data points. If the PK is set for speed zero, you're OK flippin it on as you suggest. If not it's degrading your firing solution by tracking the aiming point in the wrong direction until you transmit a proper AoB.
Turning on the PK can go either way. I set up everything then turn it on. It starts the movements and keeps track. As you will notice, the primary calculation and solution are usually off. I adjust the perimeter that looks wrong and update again. This scenerio will happen all the way up to firing my torpedoes. When I'm in optimum firing postions the PK gets one last look and update if needed. The tin fish fly:yep:.
Last night was very satifying, I had two DD blowing by me at 14 kts. I was 1400 yards from the first and the PK was dead on his track. One torp set on fast and one torp set on slow. My fast torp went by the bow and the slow torp caught him under the first quarter of he bow. She went down. I quickly moved the scope to the next DD, got range, AOB and speed left alone, fired two at slow....both hit and what a glorious bloom of fire and ashes:yep:. I just wish my men would cheer:oops:
I have a concept in my head of what I'd like a bearing transmitter to do. It could very well be that it's not realistic. I can't really tell from reading all the books what the TDC guys and/or PK was actually doing when the skipper said "Bearing, Mark". I don't have first hand knowledge of the apparatus nor do I know anyone who could say they do, so I'm not gonna pretend or profess that something worked a certain way when I just don't know.
I am positive that there was a bearing transmit button at least for the TBT (Target Bearing Transmitter). TBT=US-UZO, for the U-Boat freaks who might be reading this, but with "The Button".
"Hours passed. Finally I could make out a faint place on the horizon where the haze was a little darker. "Conn - bridge. Enemy in sight. Stand by for a TBT bearing!"
I jammed my binoculars into the TBT, centered on the smudge, pressed the button. The skipper's rasping voice came back: "That's him. How many can you see?""
- Capt. Edward L. Beach, USN, +, describing en encounter with him as XO on the Trigger in his book "Submarine!"
When the skipper says "That's him.", he did cross check the bearing which was transmitted into the TDC by Beach pressing the Target Bearing Transmitter button with what he could see of the enemy on the radar, with which they were tracking him for some time already from beyond visual range.
That aside... what I would like a bearing transmitter to do is this. Let's assume I have a fairly good solution. My AoB is good, my speed is off but not too far off, maybe 1 knot. Over time, because I'm off by 1kt on the speed, the solution slips to the stern of the ship. If I fire my torpedos they I know they will miss astern, no doubt. I have to adjust my solution.
At this point, you would say "just update the distance to target". OK, good, distance is updated, bearing is adjusted, new bearing looks good, distance is right, AoB needed to open up a bit... it didn't. If the target was on a 270 heading and I followed the steps above, the PK would now be tracking as if the target was maybe 235... I have to now manually adjust the AoB as well.
It would be nice if you had a Mark button that would allow you to update the bearing and the PK says, "Oh, the ship isn't as close as I thought" and changed bearing but also opened the AoB such that the tracking PK solution is still on the 270 base course, and also adjusted distance accordingly. Basically, just a shift forward or back in the projected target path.
I accept the possibility that I may be asking for a feature here that didn't exist... I honestly don't know how the thing worked in reality. But do not think for a second that I don't fully understand the trig behind the torpedo solution, or more specifically, the "constant bearing" formula.
If someone knows for sure, that what I've described just wasn't a feature, I'm OK with that. But please, if you don't have first or second hand knowledge, or at least some decent resource to point to as a reference please don't post on the thread, "Nah it didn't work like that IRL".
Well, we can make things up as we go ;). I have never heard of anything like that. If you think it a possibility, it is you who has to produce reference to support it. What the TDC however did was that it displayed the computed bearing in real time according to the data you entered, so you could check your solution by comparing the computed bearing with the sighted bearing and adjust the solution if neccessary. It does that in SHIV, on the inner ring of the lower left hand dial, but only for targets coming in from starboard side. Don't know if this is fixed in patch 1.2.
Really, the TDC is not that complicated or a mystery to understand.
You simply entered FOUR data values independently, and could change any of those independently thereafter as often as you wished. The Position Keeper would simply project the line of the target's travel (meaning adjusting the four values based on your initial input once you get the PK running) over time and update the gyro angle accordingly to those four values you entered.
Those four values were:
Bearing.
Range.
AOB.
Speed.
End of story. I didn't have much time to play SHIV lately, so I'm still not sure if it's true, but some people say bearing will only be transmitted with range. If that is true, that would be not so good, since taking range requires some time and 3 clicks as opposed to hitting one button. If it is transmitted with AOB, this would be bull, too, since your AOB ENTER dial will not update once the PK is active, so if you would want to take bearing again via AOB transmission in the upper right dial, you would also re-transmit the old and outdated AOB.
So the best workaround for the missing "Mark" Button would be to transmit bearing via speed, since this is the value which will most probably stays constant during observations.
AVGWarhawk
04-20-07, 09:54 AM
CONFIDENTIALSLM 1 204. RANGE - MARK: A phrase which when used by the Approach Officer during a periscope observation directs the Periscope Assistant to read the stadimeter or telemeter range and informs the Fire Control Party of the time of the range. When spoken by the Radar Operator it indicates that the radar is on the target and the range repeaters are reading correctly. It is usually paralleled by a buzzer and a mark light in the latter case.
I believe this demonstrates that the TBT/scope were not connected to the TDC. It was all done via voice and visual readings.
The rest of this found below and a great read:
http://hnsa.org/doc/attack/
(http://hnsa.org/doc/attack/)
AVGWarhawk, you quoted what "RANGE - MARK" meant. We talk about "BEARING - MARK" though. Also, as I said above, I'm positive that at least the TBT was connected. Heck, maybe not to the TDC directly, maybe there was a readout next to it on the conn and Joe sailor entered it into the TDC, but this is not the point, the point is that bearing was TRANSMITTED INDIVIDUALLY. And in case of the TBT via a button (because the thing was on the bridge while the TDC was below). Check the quote I provided above.
With the periscope I think there was a readout on the gizzmo itself which could be read by a bystander when the CO/XO said BEARING - MARK. I could digg it up as well, but it would be pointless - since the point is that BEARING was a seperate and independent entry into the TDC, no matter how that entry was exactly done in the end.
I see it coming how I will have to take a DosBox avi vid out of SHI's TDC, since this was done 100% right. What hampered the usefullness somewhat was the graphical representation of the world, with ships being 2D and visibly changed their AOB only in 15-20 degree steps, so you had to refer to the bird's eye map view to judge the angles more often than not.
AVGWarhawk
04-20-07, 10:15 AM
AVGWarhawk, you quoted what "RANGE - MARK" meant. We talk about "BEARING - MARK" though. Also, as I said above, I'm positive that at least the TBT was connected. Heck, maybe not to the TDC directly, maybe there was a readout next to it on the conn and Joe sailor entered it into the TDC, but this is not the point, the point is that bearing was TRANSMITTED INDIVIDUALLY. And in case of the TBT via a button (because the thing was on the bridge while the TDC was below). Check the quote I provided above.
With the periscope I think there was a readout on the gizzmo itself which could be read by a bystander when the CO/XO said BEARING - MARK. I could digg it up as well, but it would be pointless - since the point is that BEARING was a seperate and independent entry into the TDC, no matter how that entry was exactly done in the end.
Read the link I have above this post. It lays out everything. Includes how the solution was obtained via voice and visual. No mention of a connection of the TBT/Scope to the TDC or PK. In fact, it shows that two men ran the TDC and PK. Please read it, it is very good.
AVGWarhawk
04-20-07, 10:20 AM
I see it coming how I will have to take a DosBox avi vid out of SHI's TDC, since this was done 100% right. What hampered the usefullness somewhat was the graphical representation of the world, with ships being 2D and visibly changed their AOB only in 15-20 degree steps, so you had to refer to the bird's eye map view to judge the angles more often than not.
I don't think using SH1 TDC is concrete evidence. Remember, some functions are added to help us(lock scope/TBT) because we are only one person. When I get the time I will dig some more and attempt to obtain concrete evidence. I do not doubt what you have seen/read but I have seen the contrary that these two instruments were only connected via voice and sight of person using them.
I will repeat my quote from above:
"Hours passed. Finally I could make out a faint place on the horizon where the haze was a little darker. "Conn - bridge. Enemy in sight. Stand by for a TBT bearing!"
I jammed my binoculars into the TBT, centered on the smudge, pressed the button. The skipper's rasping voice came back: "That's him. How many can you see?""
Beach didn't say a word about the bearing. He pressed the button. I don't think he makes this up. ;)
And this confirms it:
http://www.bowfin.org/website/bowfin/bowfin_systems/TBT/tbt.htm
Note the "On Bearing Contact Marker" in the picture.
Also check this:
http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/tdc.html
"The TDC was also linked to the boat's active sonar, integrating target range and bearing readings from that source. As radar became available, it was also linked to the TDC."
I would say it is pretty clear now.
AVGWarhawk
04-20-07, 10:34 AM
:up: Excellent finds! Confirmed as well. Now, what do you think we need in SH4 to have this work. What type of workaround because I do not think we will be seeing any patch for this.
Well, as I said, I hope that bearing is also transmitted by just "sending" speed again via the upper right hand dial, cause this would most closely simulate the mark button, given that target speed stayed the same.
"Sending" a range measurement to enter bearing definitely works, but it's a bit arkward since it takes excessive time for what should be a "one click" job. Someone suggested that range is in fact the only data that will also transmit bearing. I'm not sure about that and didn't test it recently.
AVGWarhawk
04-20-07, 11:32 AM
The set up is a bit cumbersome for sending data. But, once I have a good read with my PK and tracking looks dead on, that's pretty much it. Drop the scope and watch the PK for the actual firing of the torps. Whatever the case, I believe we are stuck making due with what we have.
Yep, it's not anything like a showstopper. In fact, sending bearing via speed transmission would be good enough, maybe they can incooperate that if it is not yet the case. Sending bearing via range transmission is ok, too, it just makes it a bit cumbersome when you want to aim at specific parts of the target with the crosshairs instead of tuning the spread settings, or simply wish to renew the bearing the moment before firing.
Snowman999
04-20-07, 12:41 PM
AVGWarhawk, you quoted what "RANGE - MARK" meant. We talk about "BEARING - MARK" though. Also, as I said above, I'm positive that at least the TBT was connected. Heck, maybe not to the TDC directly, maybe there was a readout next to it on the conn and Joe sailor entered it into the TDC, but this is not the point, the point is that bearing was TRANSMITTED INDIVIDUALLY. And in case of the TBT via a button (because the thing was on the bridge while the TDC was below). Check the quote I provided above.
With the periscope I think there was a readout on the gizzmo itself which could be read by a bystander when the CO/XO said BEARING - MARK. I could digg it up as well, but it would be pointless - since the point is that BEARING was a seperate and independent entry into the TDC, no matter how that entry was exactly done in the end.
There IS a definitive source online (no, not SH1!) for all these types of quesitons:
C. TARGET DESIGNATION SYSTEM 14C1. General. The target designation system is used for the purpose of transmitting and indicating the bearing of the target from the bridge or radar to the torpedo data computer (TDC) and the 2 plotting stations. It is a simple selsyn-operated system using manually operated bearing transmitters on the bridge and an automatic transmitter coupled to the train mechanism of the radar. The indicators at the plotting stations show the true as well as the relative bearing. A buzzer system with hand contactors at the transmitting stations and buzzers at the plotting stations, radar, and TDC is provided for indicating when the transmitter is on the bearing of the target. A set of rotary cutout switches is located at the TDC so that the operator may shift the bearing indicators to the transmitter that is to furnish the bearings. The circuit designation is GT. It is energized from the a.c. bus by a fused switch on the I.C. switchboard. Own course input for the indicators that show the true as well as the relative bearing is obtained from the gyrocompass repeater panel through a rotary switch. 14C2. Target bearing transmitter. This instrument consists of 2 permanently mounted peloruses on the bridge. One is located at each end of the bridge. Each pelorus has a pair of watertight and pressure-proof binoculars of the high light transmission type. An illuminating system is built into them to make the cross wires visible when the instrument is used at night. The pelorus can be rotated through 360 degrees in azimuth and is equipped with a scale so that the operator may read the bearing at which the instrument is set. A selsyn generator inside the pressure-proof case of the instrument transmits the bearing of the target when the pelorus is pointed at it. The hand contactor for the buzzer system is built into one of the training handles. 14C3. Target bearing indicators. These instruments, when energized and connected to a transmitter, indicate the bearing as transmitted by the target bearing transmitters. Their construction is similar to any other simple selsyn indicating device. The type installed at the plotting stations in the conning tower and in the
control room indicate the true as well as the relative bearing by means of a second dial which receives from the gyro system and indicates own course. The type used at the TDC shows the relative bearing only, but utilizes 2 dials, coarse and fine, so that increased accuracy is gained. An additional indicator showing both the true and the relative bearing is located at the radar to aid in coaching the operator of this latter instrument on the bearing of the target. This is a coarse reading instrument, its dial being graduated in 5-degree increments. Selector switches are provided at the TDC so that various indicators may be switched to the transmitter that is to furnish the bearing.
http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/elect/chap14.htm
There was a button on the TBT(s). I've seen it, on the bridge of USS Parche, sitting in the middle of SubBase Pearl, maintained exactly as she was when Red Ramage drove into history.
The problem with the game is the player has to fill multiple roles. In reality a highly trained officer, the TDC operator, input all these inputs and tracked the math of the solution against what the Approach Officer was seeing. Bearings don't lie; if the TDC wasn't tracking one of the other three inputs HAD to be wrong. The TDC operator was accountable for the data going in and reporting data coming out. It was up to him to decide if he wanted to input a radar bearing or a TBT bearing, or both. The readout at his station let him choose and always made it clear which he was reading.
Modern incarnations of the Type II scope--like the one I used in 1982--have a bearing transmit button on one handle. But the above source seems to indicate WWII scopes didn't have this. The scope assistant doing "the dance" read the bearing off the bearing ring in the overhead when the Old Man said "Mark". But he didn't announce it until the scope was headed down. When the Approach Officer talks EVERYBODY shuts up.
As for observations, a classic initial observation has three parts: "Bearing, Mark! Range, Mark! AOB is ____. Down scope." Always in that order, always in that terminology. Always. My battlestation was three feet from the scopes; I heard hundreds of these over the years. It's drilled, and drilled, and drilled into the FC party.
That said, those were initial looks. After the first AOB call there's no need to repeat it unless there's a zig or the AO realizes he made a bad call. After the first observation a track was established and subsequent observations often had only the first two data elements. Once the AO was satisfied the TDC solution was tracking he often only did bearings. The final look before launch was very often only a bearing mark, the TDC operator would announce "Solution tracking!", and the fish was on its way.
The SH series, by necessity in the state of the art, makes the player busier than a one-armed paper-hanger. It doesn't begin to reproduce the party enviro of real life where the AO had several smart people backing him up and helping find the solution.
AVGWarhawk
04-20-07, 12:45 PM
The SH series, by necessity in the state of the art, makes the player busier than a one-armed paper-hanger. It doesn't begin to reproduce the party enviro of real life where the AO had several smart people backing him up and helping find the solution.
Excellent and dead on:up:. So we do what we can and we have our little helpers because we are just one Skipper with a bunch of AI crew that do just about nothing:roll:. Still, I like the manual set up for TDC and automatic TDC just point and shoot is not fun.
Awesome info Snowman999, thanks for sharing. You really need to speak up more often.
On the stuff you quoted, in fact the part about the TBT is the same word for word as in the link with the TBT picture I provided, seems like they used your reference as a source there.
As to "Bearing, Mark! Range, Mark! AOB is ____. Down scope."
- I would think this is what we are basicly simulating when we send Range, AOB and speed via the upper right hand dial in scope / TBT view. Well, maybe except for speed, as this was indeed mostly plotted by the FC party from early on most of the time, and this would be simulated only if the stopwatch thingy would be working. Is it in 1.2? I didn't d/l the patch yet and have read no clear word on that point.
Snowman999
04-20-07, 01:48 PM
Awesome info Snowman999, thanks for sharing. You really need to speak up more often.
Aw, shucks. <g> There are lots of guys here with more experience than I had. Look in the "Who served in a sub" thread.
On the stuff you quoted, in fact the part about the TBT is the same word for word as in the link with the TBT picture I provided, seems like they used your reference as a source there.
That manual set is priceless. Every sub simmer should at least flip through it to understand just how complex these beasts were on a mechanical basis. I'm amazed at the solutions they achieved with electro-mechanicals that we would flip off with digital now. There were some real engineers at EB and BuShips in those days.
As to "Bearing, Mark! Range, Mark! AOB is ____. Down scope."
- I would think this is what we are basicly simulating when we send Range, AOB and speed via the upper right hand dial in scope / TBT view.
Essentially, yes. But the game doesn't really model how critical short scope exposures were. The AO needed to do the data collection AND get a tactical picture in 5-7 seconds on an initial, and 3-5 seconds on subsequent, looks.
Well, maybe except for speed, as this was indeed mostly plotted by the FC party from early on most of the time, and this would be simulated only if the stopwatch thingy would be working.
Speed is the one place the game is just wrong. Speed came from class ID limits, normal Japanese convoy behavior, and most often from sonar turn counts. Taking three observations and doing a mo-board is nice theory, but many targets would have come and gone while you were dogging it between looks. (Especially IJN targets; they didn't mosey along.)
Also, the observation itself is formal, short, and data-rich because those seconds of scope exposure were priceless and very dangerous. Once the scope was down the AO would converse with his party. He'd do the target ID then ("Looks like a medium coastal freighter, smoking badly, deep laden.") He'd describe the escort screen, as much as he could. He'd lean over the plot and help the plotter rough in the formation, and begin a zig tracking plan. Then he'd do the second onservation. If a zig had happened it got interesting quickly.
Ned Beach's books have some of the best choregraphy for this process I know of. He was a far beter writer than O'Kane. O'Kane was probably the best AO the USN ever produced, but his writing is robotic. Beach gives more flavor IMO.
Speed is the one place the game is just wrong. Speed came from class ID limits, normal Japanese convoy behavior, and most often from sonar turn counts. Taking three observations and doing a mo-board is nice theory, but many targets would have come and gone while you were dogging it between looks. (Especially IJN targets; they didn't mosey along.)
Yeah. Though I've read in Capt. Beach's book that once radar was available and a contact established, the plotting party would go to work and of course also gather speed in the process, that's what I meant with "from early on". He also often mentions turn counts, yes. In fact, that should be possible in SHIV, too - I remember a community member produced a table with different ship types, turncounts vs speed for SHIII. I never tried it myself but reportedly it worked.
Ned Beach's books have some of the best choregraphy for this process I know of. He was a far beter writer than O'Kane. O'Kane was probably the best AO the USN ever produced, but his writing is robotic. Beach gives more flavor IMO.
Beach's book "Submarine!" is in fact the only one I have on subs. :oops: I picked it up in a Second Hand English bookstore here in Munich. Yes, I know I need to get "Silent Victory", "Run Silent, Run Deep" and whatnot, too. :up:
Snowman999
04-20-07, 02:28 PM
Yeah. Though I've read in Capt. Beach's book that once radar was available and a contact established, the plotting party would go to work and of course also gather speed in the process,
Yes. I was talking about true visual approaches. Radar gave over-the-visual-horizon data and provided more time. Sonar wasn't useful at radar range initials. But early war approaches were a quick-draw roller-coaster ride.
In fact, that should be possible in SHIV, too - I remember a community member produced a table with different ship types, turncounts vs speed for SHIII. I never tried it myself but reportedly it worked.
Except stock SH4 doesn't allow sonar to work at PD. As has been beaten to death, this is flat wrong.
Beach's book "Submarine!" is in fact the only one I have on subs. :oops: I picked it up in a Second Hand English bookstore here in Munich. Yes, I know I need to get "Silent Victory", "Run Silent, Run Deep" and whatnot, too.
Your English is impressive and certainly good enough for Beach's novels. "Silent Vicotry" is like eating a side of beef--nutritious and tasty but a long pull. If you can only buy one submarine book get a paperback of "Run Silent, Run Deep". I read it when I was 8-YO and it's a big part of why I ended up in subs. DO NOT watch the movie as a substitute. A Beach himself said, "They filmed the title."
Except stock SH4 doesn't allow sonar to work at PD. As has been beaten to death, this is flat wrong.
Yep. :-? Isn't there a fix out for this though? I think it involves a simple change of variables within a sensor.cfg file or something. Hell, I need to spend more time on the game and less in the forums. ;)
Your English is impressive and certainly good enough for Beach's novels.
Thanks. Remember there are still some Europeans who just missed the big rush for the New World a few centuries ago and plan to rectify that. :up: And I know a few other non-native speakers with skills that lay way beyond mine.
"Silent Vicotry" is like eating a side of beef--nutritious and tasty but a long pull. If you can only buy one submarine book get a paperback of "Run Silent, Run Deep". I read it when I was 8-YO and it's a big part of why I ended up in subs. DO NOT watch the movie as a substitute. A Beach himself said, "They filmed the title."
Aye. :cool:
The rest of this found below and a great read:
http://hnsa.org/doc/attack/
Yeah... it's a good read, as is the rest of the SHIII community manual (which includes the link above) been there, read that... I think it was following a post of mine on another board that it may have appeared in the community manual (quite some time ago), but not sure, might've been there first.
Actually, it's been so looong since I've read it, might do me some good to look it over again.
Few weeks ago, I recall looking around for a decent printable version of it. Couldn't find one so let it go...
Maybe I'll try again.
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