View Full Version : IMPOSSABLE to escape DD's
Hi, I'm actually starting to hate this game, I don't know how anyone can put up with the uber DD's ( jan 41), convoy, silent running, once I have fired my torpedo's I move away going deep but after 3 attempts I have to give up!!:nope: It doesn't matter what escape route I take the Destroyers always find me and hound me, what ever move I make they match imediately, within 15 minutes - uboat is destroyed!! Most frustrating!!:-?
Is there a fix for this?
I just recently learned that running slow isn't actually silent. You have to keep the RPMs under 100. (I go to the conning tower to check)
And I think the latest GWX patch 1.03 actually changed the slowest speed on the dial to not go over 100 RPMs to address this issue.
Edit: But looking at your download page you probably already have 1.03. So I don't know what to tell ya.
Henri II
04-17-07, 02:11 AM
That's strange, because I have exectly the opposite experience. I think I have by now about 20 patrols with GWX, all in 39-42, and I've been only sunk sunk by an escort once. That was by a cruiser, with artillery. The escorts seem to be rather inefficient, they either can't get a good lock on my position or can't aim right, because I really can't remember when the last time was I've been damaged by a DC. Sometimes I think I might be missing some difficulty setting, or something.
Having said this, I'm not sure what advice I can give you except for the standard "deep and silent". Usually I go to about 80 m and silent running (z/y-button). Run in a straight line and don't turn to much, except when you hear them dropping the DCs directly on you. In this case a short burst at flank speed and a course change by about 30-40 degrees should be enough to evade. Hard turns slow you down to much, so I try to avoid them. If they still can locate you, go deeper. DCs need a longer time to reach you if you are very deep, so you have more time to evade, on the other hand if your hull is damaged at 280 m, you might die very fast.
danlisa
04-17-07, 02:23 AM
Hi Reece, is this your own Mod Mix or are you using a supermod?
Henri II
04-17-07, 02:28 AM
If you feel like they deffinetely have a lock on you, go to flank speed, wait until you actually reach flank speed, switch to silent running and immidiately innitiate a course/depth change, that might throw them off for a while.
One more thing you might try is not to dive at all. My stantard tactic is to attack at night on the surface. Shoot the torpedoes at 1500-2000 m, turn around immidiately, shoot the rear tubes and run away on the surface. At night the escorts cannot see very far, usually I'm out of sight before they start their light show. Depending on the type of your boat and the sea state you can even outrun some of the slower escorts on the surface.
Usually I go to about 80 m and silent running (z/y-button). Run in a straight line and don't turn to much, except when you hear them dropping the DCs directly on you. In this case a short burst at flank speed and a course change by about 30-40 degrees should be enough to evade.
I do exactly the same, starts with 1 DD but soon you are trying to contend with 3 DD/escorts, Depth of the floor was 100mts so I couldn't go very deep, what sucks is the fact that they match my every move & drop with pinpoint accuracy!
I actually fired at only 1 target from 1.5km away then got out as fast as I could (at silent running a snail could pass)! You can watch the hydraphone red line as they all close in on me, matching my every cource change!:nope::down:
Edit: @ Henry, I try that but can't shak'em! @ Danlisa, all sensors/cfg files etc are GWX 1.03 with Rubini's "Alert Crew Mod".
danlisa
04-17-07, 02:43 AM
....all sensors/cfg files etc are GWX 1.03 with Rubini's "Alert Crew Mod".
If you have imported the sensors/cfg files from GWX 1.03 into 'your mix' then it's entirlely possible that you have inadvertantly made them Mega Uber DD's.
Now, I really don't know much about the sensor files etc but I do know that it was the most tested & tweaked item in GWX as soooooo many things affected it. Have you still got the original versions that you overwrote? If you have, swap them out and test, if things return to normal then you have found the reason. That's all I can offer as my knowledge is limited in this area, hopefully someone with more knowledge will help.:up:
Thanks Dan, it is strange, though frustrating, as to what files affect what, seems that if I get good sensors they do as well, even though the AI has separate files to the player!:-? Hasn't been this bad with Uber aircraft & Uber DD's for a long time, saying that though I'm usually playing, due to constant modding & restarting campaigns, stuck between 1939 & 1940!:oops: Since SH4 release the mods have slowed down & I'm actually getting further in the game, wonder if Rubini could elaborate on all the files associated with player & AI sensors as well as accuracy of there bombs/DC's, I can then check that I have all the proper (matching) files.:yep:
Quick comment...100M is not deep at all you take a risk with every attack in shallow water. My understanding is that is how most u-boats escaped early on. Second, not all DDs early in the war were as hopeless as we think (want?) u-boats, even with ace skippers (Prien) were sunk early in the war. :up:
Ducimus
04-17-07, 03:14 AM
You dont get under early war sonar until around 200 meters as i recall. Executing a submerged attack in 100 meters of water is a bit risky to say the least. In shallow waters, even the dumbest of AI can be a royal pain.
Wonder if they changed that for SH4, since the best US subs could only go to around 100m (150feet), correct me if I'm wrong!:yep:
Hopefully someone can list all the associated files to do with sensons, so I can check, though they should be allright, I suppose Ducimus I should have picked on a target at the end of the convoy, or not at all in shallow (less that 100m) water!:D
Wonder if they changed that for SH4, since the best US subs could only go to around 100m (150feet), correct me if I'm wrong!:yep:
OK! :D
150 feet is around 50 metres.
Maraz
I have exactly the same problem there as you Reece - and not only with DD's. I upgraded to GWX (with the latest patch) over the weekend just to see what all the hype was all about and slowly but surely come to regret it.
Playing in '42 I have played a few missions so far, all in the BE, BD, AL, and AE sectors of the board. I use a clean game, no other mods than the ones out of the box and no tweaks, btw. Right after leaving St Nazaire I have to duck and dive out of the way of all sorts of Allied planes and bombers that head right for me. Crash diving and staying under till there is hardly any air left doesn't work, because the planes are still there when coming back up (and the best bit is, the planes don't seem to be concerned about fuel at all - I was attacked by a swarm of fighters and hunters in BD, 16oo clicks from land and they still circled overhead for over an hour till I resurfaced) even though I had moved away from my original position by a couple nm.
When attacking a convoy of any size I aim to either hit it from behind (sending contact for other boots to follow and then taking aim at the rear defender and at least one merchant) or from the centre (coming from the front, full stop & dropping depth, let convoy pass over and then start attack) - yet the moment the periscope comes up that is it - unless it is dark and stormy seas I have a DD on my within a few minutes and they drop DC's with an accuracy unheard of. One time I was lucky enough to hide on the floor right next to a T3 that I sank just before and they still found me - how the heck is that possible?
Since installing GWX I haven't brought a single U-boot home - I have most boxes in realism ticked (just as I had before) and I am not even over ambigious in the tasks I take on, but compared to before the enemy not only has total air supremacy but also 100% sea control (both a little bit ahead of historical data).
Well its possible that by going from vanilla SH3 to GWX you might have encountered limitations in the conventional wisdom which you've used in playing the game up until now. I know that I've had to adapt to GWX.
For one, just dropping below the convoy and waiting for them to pass overhead won't work. Early war asdics could reach down as far as 200 meters if I recall correctly. Later war ones were much better. This means that simply submerging ahead of a convoy won't work later on. Also, Radar is becoming a major threat in the time that you're playing. This means that you can be detected at closer range, including your peri.
You should also review your evasion techniques. For one we used to think that ahead slow was enough. But now we know that you need to have your rpms at or below 100 in addition to running silent. Also you need to point your tail at the nearest DD and to only turn in 10 to 30 degree angles when detected and to burst ahead at Flank when he drops charges and to drop back to 1 or 2 knots once you've built up speed. And you need to go DEEP. The deeper the better. If you can sit on the ocean floor near a sunken ship then you're probably in shallow waters and thats always dangerous.
You should read through the GWX manual carefully. There are some excellent evasion techniques and advice at the very back of it in Appendix C.
I strongly recomend reading this thread (all of it :D )
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377
@Reece, where you in 0 knts. of wind speed?, if the sea is too calm avoid approaching a convoy at more than 1 knot of speed, and time your entry precisely or you'll be detected, I'm playing my 19th patrol (late 42) in my career and I've been able to avoid detection in most cases by planning a carefull approach and even more carefully the retreat :lol: , also don't get greedy, one attack at a time,choose the best target shoot your torpedoes, then dive to at least 70 mts, all at 2 knots max., unless detected (detected, not pinged), and move away to a safe distance and then plan another attack.
Ref
cyclop_si
04-17-07, 07:06 AM
... unless detected (detected, not pinged),...
Ref
How do you know when you are detected?
Is that when SO says "Enemy os pinging us"?
Henri II
04-17-07, 07:16 AM
When you are detected (by ASDIC) the frequency and volume of the pings usually increase compared to when they are just randomly pinging around while looking for you.
Kpt. Lehmann
04-17-07, 07:19 AM
... unless detected (detected, not pinged),...
Ref
How do you know when you are detected?
Is that when SO says "Enemy os pinging us"?
We have removed the "We are being pinged" and "we have been detected" warnings. In real life, you would not typically know these things.
Read the posts that ref linked to above. It will help you. Stock SH3 caused everyone to form really bad habits IMHO. Since GWX alters the proficiency of enemy ASW operations... there is usually a "shock" phase you go through.
Adapt and overcome! :arrgh!: You can do it.
Run slow, silent, and deep. Stay away from shallow water, and choose your fight wisely. The ASW elements in GWX are by no means impossible to avoid... but they will happily punch your ticket if you act like a cowboy.
Hi Ref, yes the sea was calm & was early morning, snuck in to around 1.5k ahead of convoy for a 90 degree shot, silent running, when scout DD is around 1k off I stop the boat & lower periscope even though I have only the tip showing I'm very cautious.:yep:
I watch the sonar & once the scout is passed I raise the scope just out to get bearings on my target that I have previously chosen & calculated data on, if I need to I may slowly creep closer till I'm in close enough, then I continue lowering & raising scope till it's time to fire, in this case I was about 1.5k, speed set to 8.5 knots & adjusted TDC to fire at bearing 20degrees, once launched I lowered periscope, set depth to 80meters & course to an almost U-Turn!:) by the time I was heading out on the new course (at this stage still not detected) "Kaboom" both torpedo's hit!
and move away to a safe distance
I get about 200meters out and about 40meters down when they all close in for the kill!!:stare:
Kinda spoils things a bit!!:doh:
Or just do what they did in "Down Periscope". Start singing as loud as you can and hope they'll think you are just bunch of drunken fishermen. ;)
Hi Dowly, I see they let you off on good behavior!:lol: Though the food is bad it's the best way to diet & when you get out .... McDonalds here I come!!!:yep:
Yes, when I was in the brig I was getting Subsim forum Withdrawls ... in a big way, just goes to show "you don't know what you've got till it's gone!".
I also see your waiting impatiently for SH4 1.2 patch!:D
Cheers Mate!:up:
How do you know when you are detected? when your U-boot symbool (stealth meter?) turns from green to orange or red (that is even before they ping you)
P_Funk - I appreciate your advice (and I by no means shy away from a challene at all, that's why I have a high reality rating on), but the point I was making was more that they know where I am no matter what I am doing... I can sit on the sea floor right next to a wreck and they find me (nothing going, silent rigging on), even 100 mtr below the surface in a violent storm - sorry, but even today's hunters have a hard time matching that feast... It is one thing of being outfoxed in a fair fight, but quite another if the opponent uses a set of rules not available in r/l...
Don't get me started on the r/l scenarios - in the timeline I am playing U-boots were hunting in packs - not one U-boot against five or six DD's... My grandfather was a U-boot Kommander and I remember quite a bit of what he told me about it and what I read in his manuals and other books he kept - this is where my fascination comes from in the first place... I don't meant to pee anybody off (especially not those that spend all those countless hours making the mod, respect to you guys), but you might want to have a read of Otto Kretschmers Biography - he went right into the centre of the convoy and took it from there (re-enactment of that is impossible with the settings in GWX as it is, I am sorry to say, and that is defeating the object of the game imho)...
Indy676
04-17-07, 10:27 AM
Hy Kaleuns
I cant sea your point. I have no problems with the DDs.
@Reece: You toled about a 8.5 kn speed. Do you mean you went to flank speed for the turn. If you are, you dont have to wonder why you have been detected. For myself, I hafe no problems with the DDs. Ive been hunted realy hard only ones in 40m of water, but escaped damaged. During an attack I go barly deeper than 120m. Tey drop some DC and loose contact to me. Its my 13th patrol and Ihave never been destroyed yet. But I get dammaged nearly every patrol.
Geetings
he went right into the centre of the convoy and took it from there (re-enactment of that is impossible with the settings in GWX as it isAfter playing GWX unpatched for a month, I was alive and well in my only campaign. Damaged twice.
First patrol with 1.03 and I just hit a convoy from within the convoy. Even managed to fire Fore and Aft torps without turning I was so in the think of it.
Two Black Swans and at least one DD never got a wiff of me. Although, the weather was so bad, I don't see how they could have.
ichneumon
04-17-07, 12:35 PM
You might also try turning the u-boat detectability indicator on for a while just to help you get used to the more capable AI.
Kaleun Cook
04-17-07, 01:16 PM
when your U-boot symbool (stealth meter?) turns from green to orange or red (that is even before they ping you)
Doesn't that only indicate the chance of being detected?
The pinging question:
I'm just reading Das Boot and have read some other stuff lately. In all of these books the authors say that the "ping" sound is created when the asdic signal actually hits the steel skin of the boat. Can anyone confirm that?
Keelbuster
04-17-07, 01:57 PM
GWX DD AI aren't so bad. I'm on my second GWX career now. In the first I completed the war (23 patrols) DiD. I was damaged a bunch of times, but never severely, by DCs. The closest I got to getting nailed was in the shallows near Grand Banks (40m). I couldn't help myself but attack a convoy there, and was detected in calm water by 3 escorts. It was a ping fest. Slowly but surely, flanking and changing course ~25 degrees each time they did a DC run, I worked my way to deeper water. And by the time they finally lost me I still had decoys left. Remember to listen to them over the hydrophone - get a sense if the attack run is dangerous (i.e. they will run overtop of you), and if so, make the appropriate turn and go flank for a bit. Stay as deep as you can, drop decoys, etc.
By the time I read your post, I was ready to make a post saying that the GWX ai were too easy. I'm begging for a good depth-charging right now.
Remember to listen to them over the hydrophone - get a sense if the attack run is dangerous (i.e. they will run overtop of you), and if so, make the appropriate turn and go flank for a bit. Stay as deep as you can, drop decoys, etc.
:yep:
I do all that - with the exception of decoys - the early type 7's don't carry any... slowly but surely I am starting to wonder if you play the same game as me - we are talking GWX out of the box, no tweaks or mods (none at all, just the 1.03 patch), right? If so, do me a favour and start a career in '40 or '41 and test your theory...
Keelbuster
04-17-07, 04:04 PM
Remember to listen to them over the hydrophone - get a sense if the attack run is dangerous (i.e. they will run overtop of you), and if so, make the appropriate turn and go flank for a bit. Stay as deep as you can, drop decoys, etc. :yep:
I do all that - with the exception of decoys - the early type 7's don't carry any... slowly but surely I am starting to wonder if you play the same game as me - we are talking GWX out of the box, no tweaks or mods (none at all, just the 1.03 patch), right? If so, do me a favour and start a career in '40 or '41 and test your theory...
Yea - 1.03 'out of the box', 95% realism (i give myself stabilized view so that i can take stad readings), NO external cam. '40, or '41...no challenge at all; just free tonnage and time to upgrade the crew. Oct. 42 right now, 29th flotilla. As far as I see it, the only danger comes from planes and hedgehogs. Depth charges just never seem to come close - you can almost always deek them with a flank burst: change of course, and/or depth. And this is only in clear weather - in anything but clear weather, you're invincible. In even a mildly rough sea state, you'd have to be really unlucky to get a) detected, b) detected for long enough for them to drop a DC on you. Even in clear weather, the only time I get caught by DCs is when the escort gets lucky or clairvoyant, and happens to drop them in the area I'm about to flank into. I've had this happen once - his data was wrong and he dropped them off to the right. Unfortunately I got twitchy and thought i was in trouble, so I flanked _into_ the trouble. :) It sucked, and I was crushed instantly.
The only way I can see getting caught by DCs is if you sit still and hope they don't find you. An active evasion style will save you (almost) every time.
Just got blasted again... :nope:
this time I used external camera and the DD followed my sub move by move, even though the stealth meter showed green with no ping (silent running, 1 knot, 120 mtr)
it also knew exactly when and how to place the dc's --- so for me that is it. I take the whole lot off and start fresh
thanks for the support though...
Keelbuster
04-17-07, 09:01 PM
First thing - turn off the external camera: "Use the Force, Luke":) But seriously, I wouldn't be runnign at 1kts. I find that a lot of people on these forums advise going at 1kt in evasion. I think this is wrong. Oh yea - and get rid of the stealth meter. You'll be slave to it. Instead, think about getting distance. That's what I'm always saying on these threads - distance. Get far from them. To do so you need speed. 1kts will never get you out of their radius. Flank for as long as you can - do it longer than it feels comfortable - RUN! Then, instead of going totally silent, go ahead 1/3rd. This will take you from 7kts back to 5kts for a while - the momentum from flank will hold you at 5kts for a bit, but fairly silent - remember ahead 1/3rd is almost silent. In anything but calm sea, ahead 1/3rd IS SILENT. And forget what your stealth meter says - probably glitchy. Anyway, only go to ahead slow when you're at the end of a long run. If they're pinging you, there's no reason to go 1kts - if they're pinging you, they can see you anyway! Only go down to 2kts silent when you've made a good solid run out of their radius. Escorts do a circle search. They'll try to run over you, then circle around. When you do your flank run, try to cut across the center of their next circle - that way when they start using asdic, they'll have to make a full 360 degree revolution before they pick you up (if your escape route is tangential to their circle, they will pick you up in like 270 or so). Every meter of distance from that escort counts. Finally, put them to your stern - when you've made like 600m distance from the escort, turn your stern to them (or better, to where they're _About_ to be). This will narrow your asdic profile. I find that unless it's calm water, you're basically invisible to asdic if you're stern is facing the searcher.
Finally. PERISCOPE DEPTH RULES. In everything but calm sea, the waves and the shallow angle will hide you from ASDIC. Some of my most successful evasion is done at PD or shallow (like 25-40m). Going deep takes a long time, and it blinds you. Also, if you're at 220m and a fish bumps into the boat, it's enough to cause a pressure crush. At shallow depth you can sustain quite a bit of damage. And, you can get further away faster, by keeping an even depth. Go down in increments. Every depth charge run that is actually a threat (i.e. overtop of you), go down 20 or 30 m. Drop decoys at the depth you were at, but are about to not be at.
I could go on. One fo the most important things is being somewhere other than where they're going to search. That's another chapter though.
Most of this is contained in The U-Boat Commander's Handbook. Order it immediately. It's the ultimate read for the crapper. You'll be pinching it to get back to the computer and try the tactics. And they work!
Good luck Kaleun. If there are too many escorts after you, sink a few!
Now that's what I call varying opinions!, one thing I discovered is that if you are useing SH3 Commander, the AI_Sensors.dat file is replaced with one that is supposed to be close to how the AI sensors should be for the particular year you are playing, I removed them from the random date folders (rolled back first) as this would be detrimental to Rubinis mod.:yep:
I think that the main problem is the depth I was at, since I couldn't go lower than 85 meters I'd say this was possably the main problem, but as Spytrx said:
slowly but surely I am starting to wonder if you play the same game as me Does make me wonder sometimes! certainly seemed easier with stock!:-?
certainly seemed easier with stock!:-?
It is easier with stock. But I was never challenged in stock.
Kaleun Cook
04-18-07, 01:25 AM
Again: There must be something totally different in your installation. Yesterday I escaped after an attack on a convoy in 88 meters deep water. The escorts were about one kilometer away. AK to 80 meters, then silent running. Only one of four escorts went after me, dropping its dc near only once.
I seldom have real trouble with DD/DDE's either...In later years it is somewhat common to get home with a little hull damage but probably 75 percent is due to damage done by aircraft.
My method is to get ahead of the convoy and inside the escort screen at periscope depth, go silent, come to a dead stop or a 1knot speed (depending on what mod is in use for depth keeping) let the convoy roll over me, raise the scope just high enough to select targets, launch all torps, lower scope, and *head into the convoy and a little ahead (so they don't pass over you too quickly) and go real deep. While in the midst of the convoy the escorts cannot get a good fix on you, they also have to avoid running into members of the convoy. This buys you time and gives you a chance to watch the escorts behavior and plan your escape accordingly. If by chance an escort comes after me while I am in the open...such as if I choose the wrong path out of the convoy, I use decoys *before they get a good fix on me* change course slightly increase speed (hoping the decoy makes enough racket to cover the small increase)....I go even deeper (if possible). If they do pinpoint me I use the standard, silent running go to flank when the DC's start popping, change course, drop decoys, etc. So far I have lived almost 2 and a half careers with this method with out being sunk by an escort (1 and a half without being sunk period...knock on wood). The previous 5 careers were cut short by aircraft or escorts before getting out of '44....actually the end of 43 was hardest to get past for me.
Another piece of advice is to upgrade or get all defensive add-ons you can *as soon as they are available* (anti-sonar and radar coatings, schnorkel, radar warning sensors(the most important!), decoys, sonar and lastly radar (radar being the least important).
danlisa
04-18-07, 02:56 AM
Just a couple of things to consider:
If you get a DD that just won't let you go in early war, who's to say he's not a ace or vet DD.;) Not all RL DD's in the war were n00bs and they certainly did not all suddenly say "hell it's 1942 we better start getting good".:lol:
Also, I see people saying they can't loose an attacker @ 100-150m, well, go deeper. Any of the U-Boats in GWX can go deeper than 200m (except maybe the Type 2) when undamaged.
The only other situation is when you find yourself in relatively shallow water i.e less than 100m. If you want to conduct an attack in this depth then you must consider that it will be hard to escape, as per RL. Conducting an attack like this must mean you adapt your approach & evasion routine. Here are my rules for convoy attacks, Less than 100m depth - Fire from distance (1500 - 2000m+) - Then turn tail and run. Greater than 100m depth - Plan your entry point past the escorts & get stuck into that juicy convoy.:arrgh!:
The 'stealth meter' will & does give an inaccurate indication of what is happening, try not to use but if you want to use it, then just remember it will not always give you the true story.
Lastly, just because the attacker is pinging, does not mean he's found you, only that he's searching. Keep calm. Make minor course adjustments while trying to keep your aspect to attacker at a minimium, if you are deep enough when the cans do start to fall, you have enough time to hit flank, change course & then return to silent running @1-2kts before the cans even reach your depth. When the attacking DD is in an attack run, he is deaf.;)
I will not argue that GWX is a huge departure from stock in this aspect but once you get used to it or find a tactic that works, this new gameplay is the most rewarding part of GWX. My advice, take a change of underwear with you, I have lost count of the times where I have been actually shaking with adrenaline & fear, seriously.:rotfl:
Keep at it guys, it will be worth it the end.
Happy Hunting.:arrgh!:
I recently had an experience with a corvette which followed me until it was 30Km lagging behind it's convoy catching it up after I lost it on the surface in the dark. I very often find there is one of the escorts, often the one at the rear of a convoy. Which has what seems to be a more sensitive hydrophone crew and will draw the rest back to your possition after loosing them.
You get it all wrong - I don't have problems with the attacks or even escaping. I have a problem as to how the escorts and hunters suddenly are able to find me.
Last night for example I thought my luck had changed - a very large convoy South of Iceland with a nice opening in the escort screen just from the direction where I was coming from (I mean it was too good to be true right from the start). It was just getting dark, the sea was heavy so I had a peak with the periscope (barely had the lens above waterline) at my prey - a nice juicy Troop Ship 2.5oo away. Bfore I could even start do any calculation I hear sonar inform me that a warship approaches - can't have found me - I have no engines going and leave hardly any signature on the sea so I ready my fishes, shoot three of them off in quick succession and then fold in my scope and just sink to the floor (which was just 67 mtr at this particular spot).
The first DD didn't even ping me before dropping DS right above me! - Now how the hell did he know where I was??? They made minced meat out of me before I had a chance to blow the hatches... It really seems that not only the sensors have been made hyper sensitive, but the environment has been changed as well, but to favour the Allies rather than to make it more realistic - where have all the layers gone?
Now reading through some war journals of both Allied and Axis sailors the Allies weren't that good at finding the U-boots at the beginning of the war, particularly in bad weather and at night. I also noticed that there is a lot of warships trafficing about - far more than was available and/or in the areas in question of the time. So my conclusion is simply that this Mod is deliberately designed to make the game harder to play (to keep some people more interested) rather than more realistic (my opinion, not a scientific fact or anything). Don't get me wrong, I like a challenge, but one with a learning curve attached (even a short one) - they teach you to swim in the pool, not by dropping you in the middle of the Atlantic ocean...
I'm starting to think that attacking a convoy in depths shallower than 100m is committing suicide!:lol: One approach I will try in shallow waters, is once escorts have passed to be around 2k away, fire torps, crash dive to the max depth, then run silent (2knots) & change course by around 90degrees keeping stern to the enemy, might work!:yep:
danlisa
04-18-07, 05:34 AM
I'm starting to think that attacking a convoy in depths shallower than 100m is committing suicide!:lol: One approach I will try in shallow waters, is once escorts have passed to be around 2k away, fire torps, crash dive to the max depth, then run silent (2knots) & change course by around 90degrees keeping stern to the enemy, might work!:yep:
Goto the top of the class!:know:
There is no need to crash dive, if your target is more than 2000m away then you have plenty of time to change course and depth with out sounding the 'come get me' bell.:lol:
Funny you say that Dan because as soon as the torpedo's hit their target the DD's seem to know exactly where I am & head streight for me, mind you they probably know from where the target was hit as to roughly where I fired from, generally I can get fairly deep (40m) before the torpedoes even reach their target but at 2 knots I don't get far, just by the way I run at 78% realism no stealth meter for sure!:yep: Next time I will take some snapshots as I go just incase they are Uber!:up:
Edit: Another thing I might try is going streight ahead under the convoy, the other boats noise might help camouflage mine, especially since they go to roughly where I was, doing a virtual u-turn does slow me down quite a bit!!
danlisa
04-18-07, 06:17 AM
Try this as an experiment. Try to aim/hit a target that is in the farthest column away from you. 99% of the time you will see all the escorts start to head over to the far side and start searching there, leaving you free to decimate the nearest column.;)
The above should really help you.
As far as the DD's coming straight for you, you are right, they know the general direction that the torp came from. Also (bit of a cheat) when a DD has detected you he will start zig zaging as soon as he in 1500m from you, use this as an indicator.
Try this as an experiment. Try to aim/hit a target that is in the farthest column away from you. 99% of the time you will see all the escorts start to head over to the far side and start searching there, leaving you free to decimate the nearest column.
I usually avoid this as the torpedoes often hit another, why is it always a poxy small merchant, by mistake!:lol:
Also (bit of a cheat) when a DD has detected you he will start zig zaging as soon as he in 1500m from you, use this as an indicator.
I'll make a mental note on a piece of paper!:yep:
PS. I checked out the reports for SH4 patch 1.2 but looks like there are just as many bugs as before, guess I wont be dusting it off yet, especially since I will need a new video card!;)
Keelbuster
04-18-07, 09:41 AM
The first DD didn't even ping me before dropping DS right above me! - Now how the hell did he know where I was???
Spotted your periscope? Last night I was guiding an attack by hydrophone in heavy fog. I had to get REAL close so I was inching towards the center of the targets' course (small merchant + escort), keeping him at 90 degrees. I've got the periscope all the way up, and the seas are high - i'm squinting to catch a glimpse of the escort's hull, just to situate me so that I can make adjustments for my shot on the merchant soon to follow. He looms out of the mist, and sure enough, at about 300m, he goes ahead flank and does a DC run - suddenly, without zig-zagging. He plasters the place I just was, passing maybe 100m behind me. It's a little unrealistic, but I'm assuming he spotted my periscope. Conversely, there have been too many occasions to count where I've had escorts drive right beside me, basically over me, while I'm sitting silent with engines off, and the have NOT detected me.
Yeah, DDs always seem to know where you fire from. Was that way in Stock SHIII, and still that way with GWX with any patch right from the beginning. But maybe that can't be changed with a mod.
I've always countered by changing depth and direction. Don't use Full Speed or Crash Dive as that just lets them know where you are faster. Use Slow as soon as you fire and change your course. If they still know where you are drop to Silent Running and 1kt while you dive deeper, and get between them if there are 1 or 2 after you. Once in the middle of the 2 DDs go to full stop and wait it out. You should be safe until they give up. The 1 or 2 DDs will circle and drop where they "think" you were. And I hope you don't have any clear weather and calm seas...... they are not helpfull either.
I'm in between 2 DDs in this screenshot at fullstop and 150m. They haven't a clue where I am. You can just makeout the sub icon to the left of the DC blowing up on the right.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/GT182/Trouble.jpg
Or change your course and nail the DD's coming at you with T-1s, or the Acousticale torps if they're available. Then run like hell before the outer DDs come running in. I use T-IIIs only for my attack on merchants or the big fat juicy warships.
It's worked for me up to mid 1940..... if they can't hear you they can't find you. I haven't gotten past mid 1940 with GWX so I can't tell if it will still work. Hopefully you can dive deep enough for the thermal layers to help hide you. It might not work for everyone either but it's worth a shot. Remember, you have to change your tactics with GWX. It's not as easy as Stock was, your tactics have to change too. And shallow water is not your friend. Just like The Channel... don't go there. ;)
About DDs knowing where you shot from, yeah, that's something I've always noticed. But two convoys - 5 in close approaches so far in 1.03 and each time I've slipped away without any hint of detection.
Also, something I saw long ago. Not sure if it was stock SHIII, or maybe the first release of GW, but it blew my mind.
I hit a merch in a convoy. Good weather, fairly long shot (I'm getting bolder now, but back in the day I shot everything from a distance - it can be done effectively, darn it). And I swear the escort steamed over to the ship I hit as if it was inspecting the damage to see where the torp came from.
Anyone else ever see something like that?
I agree that they do know pretty much where the torp came from. The worst example I can think of was when I fired a LUT and missed, it turned back around and hit the opposite side of the ship (away from me)...but to my surprise the escort and merch searchlights were pointed my way and I had to go evasive right away...was hoping they would head the opposite direction and I could get off a reload or two :(
To me the must frustrating escort cheat is that they always seem to know exactly what depth I am at when dropping DC's....no matter how radical my changes. Aircraft on the other hand do not exhibit this behavior and always seem to set their charges pretty shallow.
Manually working the hydrophone is a huge help for me. Your sonar man will generally tell you which bearing is closest but that is about it. By using the hydrophone yourself you can hear the charges hit the water and what bearing they were dropped helping you to isolate which DD dropped them. Using this information will tell you exactly when you can break silence and speed up, perform an evasive turn, which way to turn, and when to dive deep to get under them. Generally ill start at 150 meters and work my way deeper ascending and descending as necessary to keep them guessing as to my actual depth.
CaptainAsh
04-19-07, 08:59 AM
From my experience in 41-42, if you aren t able to dive at at least 160m and if the escort succeed once in having an accurate ping possition, you re dead. Once they know exactly were you are, if you can t go to more than 140m you re just a sitting duck :). If they don t succeed in locking their ping on you, between 80 and 100m is good enough...
sandbag69
04-19-07, 02:55 PM
From my experience in 41-42, if you aren t able to dive at at least 160m and if the escort succeed once in having an accurate ping possition, you re dead. Once they know exactly were you are, if you can t go to more than 140m you re just a sitting duck :). If they don t succeed in locking their ping on you, between 80 and 100m is good enough...
Yeah liek that was realistic in 41 -42 :down:
GWX has been uber'd up to much.
I finally figured out why by doing some of my own research into the sonar capabilities of the Allied Forces during WW2
For a start, the area covered was a cone heading away from the ship - the method used in GWX is that of a sphere... Basically what this means is that the DD's which have their sonars at the front quater of the ship with their tight turning circle will never loose a boot once it is in their range (and the range is far greater than historical data shows to be capable of, even under ideal test conditions) since the sphere of detection starts off at a right angle to the ship and extends from there. R/l however was flawed with blindspots and little nags like the limited angle (between 25-60 degrees) off the sonar which then extended, giving the U-boots a fair crack at hiding right underneath or at the side of the DD looking for them (if they so wished and the ship trawled that slow). Other factors like speed and noise of the ship and sea condition as well as the sea floor were also important factors in this matter - all of which have been left out (as well as the vanilla version, but GWX is said to have improved on that) - basically it is lazy mans maths to blame: The method used is far easier to implement and calculate then the real model
Kpt. Lehmann
04-19-07, 05:27 PM
I finally figured out why by doing some of my own research into the sonar capabilities of the Allied Forces during WW2
For a start, the area covered was a cone heading away from the ship - the method used in GWX is that of a sphere... Basically what this means is that the DD's which have their sonars at the front quater of the ship with their tight turning circle will never loose a boot once it is in their range (and the range is far greater than historical data shows to be capable of, even under ideal test conditions) since the sphere of detection starts off at a right angle to the ship and extends from there. R/l however was flawed with blindspots and little nags like the limited angle (between 25-60 degrees) off the sonar which then extended, giving the U-boots a fair crack at hiding right underneath or at the side of the DD looking for them (if they so wished and the ship trawled that slow). Other factors like speed and noise of the ship and sea condition as well as the sea floor were also important factors in this matter - all of which have been left out (as well as the vanilla version, but GWX is said to have improved on that) - basically it is lazy mans maths to blame: The method used is far easier to implement and calculate then the real model
Sandbag and Spytrx, you are both flatly incorrect. Read the entries on this link closely: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377
The speed of the enemy hunter and of the hunted was indeed modelled and tested extensively over months. Furthermore, limitations of SH3 sensor capability prevent one from simply adding in real-life historical data... and expecting that a logical outcome be produced in simulation.
Reasonable blind spots and sea state are also modelled.
Reading the above article will increase your understanding of what you feel to be "uber."
From stock SH3 to GWX... yes as a player you must adapt to harsher surroundings and always remember that most of the U-boatmen who went to sea, did not return. Indeed many crews were sunk on their first patrol.
Something that we can never remove from the player as an advantage... is the ability to gain experience as a result of simulated destruction. In real life they did not have that advantage... it was permanent. You do have that advantage... and will need to adapt to a more realistic environment to be successful in GWX.
Spytrx, your analogy that the enemy AI adjustments were simply "lazy man's math" is entirely incorrect and uninformed. You weren't a part of the months of work that went into getting rid of enemies that were dumber than dirt.
If you want arcade style play... I suggest you uninstall GWX. As a develoment team, our hunt is about the attempt to produce a better realistic environment and simulated behavior as best as is possible... be it code, graphics, or sound.
sandbag69
04-19-07, 08:12 PM
always remember that most of the U-boatmen who went to sea, did not return. Indeed many crews were sunk on their first patrol.
.
You are thinking of the whole of WW2. up to April 1943 the U-Boat losses were not that great. In fact they were pretty low. After April 1943 they were slaughtered.
There is definately something wrong with the AI in GWX.
What you say is correct Kap, but you should have options for those who don't want full 100% of your Ideals or realism, it is after all a game to enjoy and 100% realism or harder is not everyones "cup of tea", would be nice to see on next version, if there is one, some options to suit all players.:yep: This would keep everyone happy & you wouldn't have to keep defending your ideals for the game play.:up: No offence meant.
sandbag69
04-19-07, 08:20 PM
I finally figured out why by doing some of my own research into the sonar capabilities of the Allied Forces during WW2
For a start, the area covered was a cone heading away from the ship - the method used in GWX is that of a sphere... Basically what this means is that the DD's which have their sonars at the front quater of the ship with their tight turning circle will never loose a boot once it is in their range (and the range is far greater than historical data shows to be capable of, even under ideal test conditions) since the sphere of detection starts off at a right angle to the ship and extends from there. R/l however was flawed with blindspots and little nags like the limited angle (between 25-60 degrees) off the sonar which then extended, giving the U-boots a fair crack at hiding right underneath or at the side of the DD looking for them (if they so wished and the ship trawled that slow). Other factors like speed and noise of the ship and sea condition as well as the sea floor were also important factors in this matter - all of which have been left out (as well as the vanilla version, but GWX is said to have improved on that) - basically it is lazy mans maths to blame: The method used is far easier to implement and calculate then the real model
Sandbag and Spytrx, you are both flatly incorrect. Read the entries on this link closely: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377
The speed of the enemy hunter and of the hunted was indeed modelled and tested extensively over months. Furthermore, limitations of SH3 sensor capability prevent one from simply adding in real-life historical data... and expecting that a logical outcome be produced in simulation.
Reasonable blind spots and sea state are also modelled.
Reading the above article will increase your understanding of what you feel to be "uber."
From stock SH3 to GWX... yes as a player you must adapt to harsher surroundings and always remember that most of the U-boatmen who went to sea, did not return. Indeed many crews were sunk on their first patrol.
Something that we can never remove from the player as an advantage... is the ability to gain experience as a result of simulated destruction. In real life they did not have that advantage... it was permanent. You do have that advantage... and will need to adapt to a more realistic environment to be successful in GWX.
Spytrx, your analogy that the enemy AI adjustments were simply "lazy man's math" is entirely incorrect and uninformed. You weren't a part of the months of work that went into getting rid of enemies that were dumber than dirt.
If you want arcade style play... I suggest you uninstall GWX. As a develoment team, our hunt is about the attempt to produce a better realistic environment and simulated behavior as best as is possible... be it code, graphics, or sound.
I will keep perceivering with my mission in GWX.
Dont understand why my watchmen can't see a convoy taht I can clearly see through the bins.
Has the range that the Watchcrew see been reduced?
Dont understand why my watchmen can't see a convoy taht I can clearly see through the bins.
Has the range that the Watchcrew see been reduced?I just loaded up the 'GWX Stay Alert crew fix v1c'. Can't say how well it works yet but it's meant to address this issue.
I'd link it but not sure where I got it from. (I just d/l it today. Heh. Short term memory. I remember what that was like.)
Well for a test I tried with a "65meters under keel", waited for a good target to the rear, waiting at periscope depth, all silent, scope down checking hydraphones for most to pass, then raised scope, setup final solution (speed & course calculated before the escort was even close), open tube 1, fired, open tube 2, fired!:yep: Set depth to 67 meters and 2 knots still silent, this time I headed off at 25 degrees to Port! Both Torpedo's hit & 1 destroyer (last in group), headed for where I launched the torpedos, this time he didn't even get near to me & I got away without detection!:up:
Whew, good Rush!!:D
Kaleun Cook
04-20-07, 03:54 AM
I'm only in 1941 so I can't say anything about the later war AI. I'm playing since a few weeks so I guess I'm still rather a noob, playing with 80 % realism (can't aim manually).
I've experienced it the other way around. I played one patrol in vanilla sh3 and tried to attack a convoy. I had no chance to get near to it - the escorts spotted me far off each time allthough it was deep night. In GWX it worked better for me.
Lately it happened two times, that I set an interception course and then left the PC to do something else. By the time I got back, I had accidently sailed in front of the convoy - still the escorts didn't see me. Hung up at the peri and infiltrated the columns successfully both times.
When it came to withdrawal it worked out for me what's said here over and over again: deep and slow - 180 meters or deeper and silent running, the course set through the convoy to make it harder for the escorts to follow the boat. One can escape in shallow water the way reece did but it's of course more likely to be spotted. And even if the escorts run out of DC they might follow you for several miles waiting for you to surface and calling in each destroyer on the way. Actually I never got away once caught in shallow water. :shifty:
Spytrx, your analogy that the enemy AI adjustments were simply "lazy man's math" is entirely incorrect and uninformed. You weren't a part of the months of work that went into getting rid of enemies that were dumber than dirt.
The "lazy man's math" is a quote taken from the Ubi chief designer about the sensor model used in SH3 and applied here as that, a quote - if you start off with the wrong set of values and formulas given by the game and partly hardcoded into it you will not be able to change much. Furthermore the cone model is far more complex to claculate and model and requires a very good understanding of physics, particularly since half the data is still classified and needs to be worked out by the programmer themselves...
You can take offense in criticism all you like (and it seems to me you do even though there is none intended) - 1939/40 were not the years that DD's were so effective to kill every U-boot they encountered (which was my point right from the onset (just on the by since I am asked to read something clearly over and over) and even later when the DD's became more sophisticated and the crews were better trained/prepared the wolfes changed their tactics and hunted in packs.
I have taken off GWX days ago so simply because there are other Mods out there that go for the realism flavour without hitting you with a sledgehammer the first time you get into the game and if I wanted to play arcade games, I would, thank you. There is nothing wrong with GWX if you like that sort of thing - just don't advertise it for beginners as something better than the vanilla!
down and out
04-20-07, 05:10 AM
always remember that most of the U-boatmen who went to sea, did not return. Indeed many crews were sunk on their first patrol.
.
You are thinking of the whole of WW2. up to April 1943 the U-Boat losses were not that great. In fact they were pretty low. After April 1943 they were slaughtered.
There is definately something wrong with the AI in GWX.
9 sunk in 3 months of 1939 out of 57 total boats
23 U-boats lost in 1940 (643 men died and 331 men survived those losses)
34 U-boats lost in 1941 (887 men died and 645 men survived those losses)
The number of boats built during that time
1939 (18)
1940 (50)
1941 (199)
84 U-boats lost in 1942 (3221 men died and 818 men survived those losses)
235 U-boats lost in 1943 (10053 men died and 1842 men survived those losses)
215 U-boats lost in 1944 (7976 men died and 2349 men survived those losses)
124 U-boats lost in 1945 (3963 men died and 396 men survived those losses)
Number of boats built during that time
1942 (237)
1943 (284)
1944 (229)
1945 (91)
Aside from the fact the allies got better at hunting uboats technical advances such as radar in 42 made it easier as well plus more uboats at sea will also lead to more sinkings
Green crews late war didnt help either
I think that SH3 in general and GWX in particular mirror RL
The skippers with patience and understanding are succesful and return from patrols
We are lucky in that we can reload and learn from our mistakes
Sadly for 30,000 that wasnt the case
Kpt. Lehmann
04-20-07, 05:16 AM
@Spytrx
Everybody's an expert... and everybody is a critic, LOL.
Do what you will. The "sledge-hammer" is what we advertised. (As if we all got paid to build it.)
If you'd read the manual... you would find that we have explained it in great detail... and there is an ENTIRE APPENDIX (C-1) titled "SURVIVING ASW WARFARE IN GWX"
That ought to tell you something.
That being said, there's been way too much "its too soft" or "its too hard." That tells me that we've got it just about right.
Adapt and overcome.
RTFM.
@down and out... Thank you.
Really folks, we can twiddle and adjust continuously, and it will always be wrong for somebody.
If I may add this...... "You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time." This holds ture for SHIII. Just use what mods "you" think best.
The GWX Team did what they did as a "Group" , not as individuals. If one person had the willpower and time to type over a million lines of code and did it "his" way, then we might be asking for the how's and whys. Many believe GWX is "as close as it can be" considering how SHIII was made. Remember the flaws in it and how long it's taken to get where it is now. As the good Kpt, says, adapt.... and READ THE MANUAL. ;) Remember too, this is all free. All it cost you was the time to install and play it. ;)
The added tweeks by modders are welcome to many.... even me. And I for one thank each and every one of them for the hard work they've put into their mods. We should all be greatful that work still continues on SHIII no matter what form it takes. One day if we're not careful it could end, and then there'd be something many would really bitch about. :yep: ;) If one isn't happy with SHIII and any Expansion or mod, then it's time to try SH4 and have a royal fit. :rotfl: It's not even close to being fixed from what I've read and heard, Some lessons are never learned.
Redwine
04-20-07, 07:03 AM
Hi, I'm actually starting to hate this game, I don't know how anyone can put up with the uber DD's ( jan 41), convoy, silent running, once I have fired my torpedo's I move away going deep but after 3 attempts I have to give up!!:nope: It doesn't matter what escape route I take the Destroyers always find me and hound me, what ever move I make they match imediately, within 15 minutes - uboat is destroyed!! Most frustrating!!:-?
Is there a fix for this?
It is strange Reece you dont remember the long DD and DE AI research done some time ago, i posted my silent runing tweaks many times.
Let me to upload a pack of files for you.
Kaleun Cook
04-20-07, 07:23 AM
May the GWX-Devs please calm down. You've done a great job, you know that, and noone did really attack the mod in this thread. It's just that the language used in some posts should have been a bit more kindly, regarding the hours and hours of work you put into this free superpatch.
Think of the UBI-Devs looking through forums like this one. If they posted angry replies to every offend they find their renown would sink to the ground of the atlantic.
Sailors, don't start a mudslinging here. I think the originally thread was rather ment to ask for tactical help than to offend the GWX-Team.
Peace n harmony etc. (damn, no hugging smiley available :rotfl:)
Redwine
04-20-07, 07:25 AM
Hi Reece !!! :rotfl:You are in the credits for this mod !!! :up::up::up:
How do you forgeted it !
http://hosted.filefront.com/Redwine/1940352
Download the :
DDs_Detection_13C_Stage.zip (http://files.filefront.com/DDs_Detection_13C_Stagezip/;7291111;;/fileinfo.html)
Do not forget to accomplish the step 4 from the readme file.
and :
Zones.zip (http://files.filefront.com/Zoneszip/;7291179;;/fileinfo.html)
You can use the sub part of zones only if you want to maintain your present ships and aircraft zones. Sure you know how to replace the sub zone section only, just erase your present, and copy and paste the new lines. I cant remember who made this subzones, but was at very early SH III times.
Planes zone parts was reduced in armor to ensure a protection when you sail at port in shallow waters.
This will be enought sure.
Plus ....
You can download the :
Depth_Charges_FX_Stage_4.zip (http://files.filefront.com/Depth_Charges_FX_Stage_4zip/;7291149;;/fileinfo.html)
for spectacular graphic effect too.
:up::up::up::up:
Haven't forgotten Red, it's just that most of the GWX files are quite different, even the sensor files, both the AI_Sensors * Sensors.dat contain more data, also the cfg files, you can't use the minitweaker without the new Sensors_dat.txt file. We got things going just right Red, then GWX comes along, which is very good, but changed a lot of things, as it happens I am useing your files now, except the Sensors.dat, this one is vastly different as I mentioned.:yep:
Rubini has improved the visual range for Aircraft & ships, and improved the hydraphones vastly, so at the moment I have Rubini's good sensors with your mod for AI_Sensors (even this was changed in SH3 Commander) & not so Uber depthcharges! many thanks for this, I think, for 8k version, I have it just about right!:up:
Anyway how have you been? taking a break from SH3 for a while!:D I have SH4 but have shelved it for now till some of the bugs have been removed, good to hear from you! Cheers.
Redwine
04-20-07, 09:37 AM
Haven't forgotten Red, it's just that most of the GWX files are quite different, even the sensor files, both the AI_Sensors * Sensors.dat contain more data, also the cfg files, you can't use the minitweaker without the new Sensors_dat.txt file.
Sorry... wasnt in know about that, i am user of "War Ace Campaign Mod".
May be you can adapt/copy my settings into that new file ???
We got things going just right Red, then GWX comes along, which is very good, but changed a lot of things, as it happens I am useing your files now, except the Sensors.dat, this one is vastly different as I mentioned.:yep:
This mod do not changes Sensors.dat file, any way i have it tweaked too.
Rubini has improved the visual range for Aircraft & ships, and improved the hydraphones vastly, so at the moment I have Rubini's good sensors with your mod for AI_Sensors (even this was changed in SH3 Commander) & not so Uber depthcharges! many thanks for this, I think, for 8k version, I have it just about right!:up:
Stock lethal radius are so unreal, they are incredible big...
Anyway how have you been? taking a break from SH3 for a while!:D I have SH4 but have shelved it for now till some of the bugs have been removed, good to hear from you! Cheers.
Yes a little break !! :rotfl: ... here, but with a lot of job... there ! :rotfl:
It seems the first days of SH III !!!! :up:
But SH IV has not so bugs as SH III when it was released. ;)
And have lot improvements requested by the people.
I have my SH III well personalized to my taste, the only job i need to do is to introduce the new changes of War Ace Campaign Mod neww versions, without change or ruin my personalized tweaked files.
So i go to SH IV, because it is better to stay day at day reading and participating of the tweak discussions... if not, if you arrive moths later, you will understand anything.... not sure if will be a good supermod for it, any way, if it will be, sure you will not like lot of things of the supermod... then is better to read day at day, and make the job day at day... at first days. :up::up::up:
Jimbuna
04-20-07, 12:58 PM
@Spytrx
Everybody's an expert... and everybody is a critic, LOL.
Do what you will. The "sledge-hammer" is what we advertised. (As if we all got paid to build it.)
If you'd read the manual... you would find that we have explained it in great detail... and there is an ENTIRE APPENDIX (C-1) titled "SURVIVING ASW WARFARE IN GWX"
That ought to tell you something.
That being said, there's been way too much "its too soft" or "its too hard." That tells me that we've got it just about right.
Adapt and overcome.
RTFM.
@down and out... Thank you.
Really folks, we can twiddle and adjust continuously, and it will always be wrong for somebody.
We could also charge for GWX v1.04 or whatever....then everyone would really have something to moan about :hmm:
In the meantime:
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/4035/rtfmcy8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Redwine
04-20-07, 05:34 PM
We got things going just right Red, then GWX comes along, which is very good, but changed a lot of things, as it happens I am useing your files now, except the Sensors.dat, this one is vastly different as I mentioned.:yep:
This mod do not changes Sensors.dat file, any way i have it tweaked too.
The file changed by my mod is Sensors.sim, not Sensors.dat.... :up:
The changes there are for the Bolds..... only that. :up:
GoldenRivet
04-20-07, 07:54 PM
@Spytrx
Everybody's an expert... and everybody is a critic, LOL.
Do what you will. The "sledge-hammer" is what we advertised. (As if we all got paid to build it.)
If you'd read the manual... you would find that we have explained it in great detail... and there is an ENTIRE APPENDIX (C-1) titled "SURVIVING ASW WARFARE IN GWX"
That ought to tell you something.
That being said, there's been way too much "its too soft" or "its too hard." That tells me that we've got it just about right.
Adapt and overcome.
RTFM.
@down and out... Thank you.
Really folks, we can twiddle and adjust continuously, and it will always be wrong for somebody.
Amen!
I have taken my boat to 220 meters to avoid escorts.
I am on my 22nd patrol with GWX from 1939 to late 1942 now and have not been sunk once. I have been attacked by aircraft, DDs and DEs i have taken a severe ass kicking from some of them... but EVERY time so far i have managed an escape.
Even in stock sh3 my strategy was to go as deep as i dare go and set the speed to one or two knots and rig for silent running, and if i had them - deploy a decoy or two on the way down at the shallower depths.
I stay deep, i stay at one or two knots, and i stay at silent running for as much as a day if thats what it takes, but every time i have escaped so far. By the skin of my teeth once or twice (some may recall my post of sinking to over 290 meters only to save the boat at the last second).
I think the level of historical realism that GWX offers for escort difficulty is quite accurate.
if you choose not to read your GWX manual - great - but at least understand this
Active sonar (pinging) is a bitch and you only have a couple of ways of evading it be quiet all you want to it wont help against active sonar.
passive sonar wont really PINPOINT your position but it will give the escorts a great place to start looking because they can hear every little fart that squeeks out on your boat.
to beat active sonar 1. GO DEEP 2. POINT EITHER THE NOSE OR TAIL OF YOUR SUB DIRECTLY AT THE ESCORT IF YOU CAN
To beat passive sonar 1 GO DEEP 2. RIG FOR SILENT RUNNING 3. SET SPEED TO LESS THAN 2 KNOTS
the enemy cannot use both sonar methods at once BUT one DE can use passive while another uses active sonar to hunt you down.
It is supposed to be hard to survive especially from 1943 on... a lot of u-boatsmen on the sea floor can attest to that fact.
i dont know how much easier it can get to avoid getting killed besides to say... opt for descretion over valor, stay quiet and stay deep, never attack in water less than about 200 meters deep unless it is a hit and run against a lone merchant, dont tangle with airplanes... a U-boat, not even a U-Flak - is not an AA platform.
good luck, read your manual, command smartly
and
SINK THEM ALL!!! :up:
j_o_nn_y
04-21-07, 07:34 AM
Well I don't think that GWX is that historically correct because im reading iron coffins for the 3rd time now and the author only says that the destroyers and their tactics became instantly good around march 25th 1943. From the start GWX even in 1939 the destroyers can locate you with surprising accuracy and so force you to go silent which is really slow going and can be boring at times. I am usually pretty successful at this game, but it still infuriates me that it is constantly hard from the outset. I have read other books from uboat captains and servicemen and they all say it was easy to avoid destroyers and employ surface tactics. Is there some kind of way to make the difficulty less so until 1943?.
Kpt. Lehmann
04-21-07, 07:41 AM
Well I don't think that GWX is that historically correct because im reading iron coffins for the 3rd time now and the author only says that the destroyers and their tactics became instantly good around march 25th 1943. From the start GWX even in 1939 the destroyers can locate you with surprising accuracy and so force you to go silent which is really slow going and can be boring at times. I am usually pretty successful at this game, but it still infuriates me that it is constantly hard from the outset. I have read other books from uboat captains and servicemen and they all say it was easy to avoid destroyers and employ surface tactics. Is there some kind of way to make the difficulty less so until 1943?.
Iron coffins is a great read, but considered by some, including myself... to be a questionable source for U-boat loss related research. For that we look to Clay Blair and U-boat.net.
Based on months of research, modding, testing, and adjusting, we feel we have a logical progression of sensor / lethality.
Kaleun Cook
04-21-07, 07:42 AM
Some posts here seem to claim that the brits were superdumb till 42/43 and then suddenly became superefficent. The GWX manual describes the different asdic-developments through the war - but they could always hear a submerged uboat when it ran too fast.
Kpt. Lehmann
04-21-07, 07:46 AM
U-boat losses versus U-boat availability:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=506121&postcount=60
Kaleun Cook
04-21-07, 07:50 AM
Of course the number of sunken boats rises, Kaleun. What I ment was that some people here seem to find it impossible to get sunk in the early years which of course wasn't the case.
poor sailor
04-21-07, 09:17 AM
I don't see any problem with GWX, escaping destroyers and the AI in game. The German's are loss the war and we all know that. In the sea they had a great losses, and just starting of this game is enough to know that It's not possible to change the war, or the German be victorious at the end. The core of this game is "how to survive" and meet the end of war (And of course take a hit as much as possible to allied forces). Lot of times I have a questions by my friends "Have I reach the end of this game" (Game over)? And always I said "No, this game is not a Call of Duty, this is a real time simulation and this game is for years playing". Lot of them could not understand my will to always loss and being beaten. But that is my passion with U-boats war and that's a fact. Sorry if I hijack thread but I must to say something like that. The GWX team made a great job here and we have a realistic and historically accurate mod, when everything be different then now, in that case I will not use that mod. Lot of time is needed for good practice and understanding which tactics is best...Hard, yes but this game deserve that. There is a lot of easy game around and the choice is big. My choice is Silent Hunter III with GWX. And I will fight to the end!:up:
Andrew-kie
04-17-13, 04:17 PM
Well they are capable to sink and detect you, have been lucky one time that after hitting me hard both dd's did run out of depth charges followed me for a while and gave up at some moment. Have some tips how to escape them? And what if 1 of my electric engines is destroyed and i have hull dammage? Cant go as deep as i want to then so any advice?
Jimbuna
04-17-13, 04:35 PM
Well they are capable to sink and detect you, have been lucky one time that after hitting me hard both dd's did run out of depth charges followed me for a while and gave up at some moment. Have some tips how to escape them? And what if 1 of my electric engines is destroyed and i have hull dammage? Cant go as deep as i want to then so any advice?
You are replying to a post that is six years old....might I suggest you look at more recent posts.
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