[WIP] SHIP CONVERSIONS about 20 SH3 merchants to SH4

[jmjohnson36]

Within a few days, AG124's merchants will be transposed over....These are the newer files to ones I released a week ago...

HMS Illustrious is one AC coming....tonnes of merchants...(no pun intended)

hope you like the pack coming up soon:up:

[AG124]

I just realized that I forgot to change the ID Images - the old SHIII ones won't work in the new SHIV manual as the template is different. I didn't really have time anyway. Are you going to change those over to the new style?

BTW - I set the Illustrious to use US a/c, since there were no UK ones in the game. If you or someone else adds some, I suggest you edit the .cfg file to use those instead.:yep:

[Boris]

very nice... this is the kind of news I like to hear :up:

Makes me glad SH4 was built on the SH3 engine. This means theres going to be a never before seen variety of merchant shipping.
If iambecomelife releases his merchants... and they get added to SH4, the numbers will be insane.

Just curious, I haven't had the time to try out any of the ship conversions yet. How do they compare to the original SH4 ships in damage modelling, and do they have the men on decks etc?

[jmjohnson36]

hmmm let me see what I can do....but so far looks like they are working...just renaming some areas...and checking though things...:hmm:

I just realized that I forgot to change the ID Images - the old SHIII ones won't work in the new SHIV manual as the template is different. I didn't really have time anyway. Are you going to change those over to the new style?

BTW - I set the Illustrious to use US a/c, since there were no UK ones in the game. If you or someone else adds some, I suggest you edit the .cfg file to use those instead.:yep:

[XanderF]

Just a friendly reminder, though, that you CANNOT REDISTRIBUTE source files (images, 3d models, etc) from Sh3.

This mod could still work, of course, but you must create it in such a way that it copies the files it needs from a user-provided location of their Sh3 install.

And, naturally, any 'user created' ships that were added to Sh3 are perfectly fine to add to Sh4, presuming original author's permission, of course.

[AG124]

I assume that is a message from either Ubisoft, the dev team or both.

Point taken - jmjohnson36, I think you should stop work on this immediately. If this is forbidden, then I'm backing out of the project myself and suggest you do the same. My ships do not qualify as entirely user-created, as they are kitbashed from Ubisoft models - for whatever it will be worth in terms of communkty norms, I am withdrawing permission for them to be converted due to copyright concerns. They only way I will now give permission is if Ubisoft EXPLICTLY states that they don't care if we transfer SHIII ships and derivatives to SHIV. Or at least if they don't care about kitbashes - which would make sense to me as long as they remained within a Ubisoft game, since you they don't actually come with a new copy of SHIII and would be remaining within the framework of Ubisoft intellectual property (doubt they would see it that way though).

Once again - jmjohnson36, I recommend that you follow me and halt the project - not just my kitbashes, but any other work derived from SHIII models as well. You could continue to work on an installer which will take the models and skins from a SHIII install, but that will not work for the kitbashes and lighted ships so you should remove those from the mod and delete any work which you have uploaded to the forum.

[XanderF]

I'm just pointing out copyright law. Even recently, the developer of STALKER may be in trouble for using a handful of texture maps from Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/46449).

You just need to be careful when working with other people's work, and those files are definitely "other people's work". When you paid $50 for Sh3, you weren't buying the single, compiled "game experience" as a whole object that you can dismantle at will. Rather, the compilation of textures, 3d models, sound files, executable code, etc. All of that is copyrighted material owned by someone else - material that took time, money, and resources to make. The game's EULA gives you limited permission to use these in the context of playing the game. You can't just take something that has to be paid for and redistribute it for free in violation of the EULA. That's called piracy.

As I said, it's just a friendly reminder. The developers may well NOT care - but they may also sue you for hundreds of thousands of dollars. No way to tell without asking them first - so you should probably do that.

And, certainly, if someone DOES have a copy of Sh3, then they have those resource files...so it's pretty easy to make an install that copies it around to import the ships into Sh4.

[shad43]

I wondered how long it would take for this issue to arise :o

[Boris]

Someone just had to bring it up didn't they. :roll:

If you look at any game EULA you will find that most will forbid modification and/or retain ownership of anything that is modified. But they tolerate it anyway, and must think it's of some sort of a benefit, or they would have put a stop to it ages ago.

Now I don't think that using any already modified ships would get anyone into trouble, as they are ships that are not available in the commercial product of SH3.

Even taking a few of the original ships might not be looked badly upon, if it's percieved that it wouldn't effect SH3... and it would only benefit SH4. Though I wouldn't recommend this on the side of caution, at least until we know it's frowned upon for sure.

The very worst thing that could happen is that someone tells you to stop. The only reason you'd get sued is if you tried to make a profit... that goes for any modding.

Edit: Xander makes a good point though, if anyone wanted to convert the stock SH3 ships as well, it might be possible to make an installer that verifies that you own SH3.

[XanderF]

The difference would be in 'fair use' of a product, which could include modifications within the product to use it differently than intended. It does generally violate the EULA, but most countries have 'fair use' conditions generous enough to allow that. This permits things like modding game configs, importing new models, re-using textures within the same game to add ships, etc - very much all of what GWX brought us for Sh3 is covered by 'fair use'.

The problem comes in redistributing copyrighted material. That's the issue, and simply crafting the Sh4-ship-import tool to pull the files directly from Sh3 rather than distributing the "protected" intellectual property within the mod file itself gets around this perfectly.

It's more work, surely...but it's also the only legal way to do it. (And hey, if it sells more copies of Sh3 so people can get these ships added to their Sh4 install...well, increased retail demand for subsims benefits everyone, no?)

[Prof]

This issue came up about 8 years ago in the racing sim modding community. Someone made a converter to convert tracks between a number of games made by Papyrus (*sigh*...those were the days!). Even though he was selling the converter as a commercial product, I think Papyrus accepted it because the user had to have the original game installed to be able to convert the tracks to other games.

Things started to get ugly when people posted the converted tracks to the Internet...effectively they were posting copyrighted material from the older games. I don't remember there being any legal challenges (though I might be wrong) but the most popular sites in the community took a very dim view of the posting of the tracks and considered them illegal 'warez'.

It's definitely something for Subsim.com to think about...if you post material from SH3 in a form modified for SH4 then technically you're providing copyrighted material to people who don't have a right to use it. Of course, if you could provide a true converter to take ships from an SH3 installation and convert then to SH4, you'd be OK. Probably ;)

[AG124]

@ XanderF - I'm a law student actually, ironically enough, although I haven't done intellectual property law yet (and probably won't both, as I won't be going into that area of law). However, I do understand the relevnt concepts - I just proceeded on the assumption that if Ubisoft objected to this use of their files, they would ask us to stop. Technically, all of the modding that has been done here is illegal anyway (according to the SHIII and SHIV EULAs) but Ubisoft seems to have implied consent to the rest of that (for example, stating that they would make SHIV more moddable).

Before anyone proceeds any further converting either stock, kitbashed, cloned, or lighted models from SHIII to SHIV, someone should find out Ubisoft's position on the matter, although I assume it will be a resounding 'no' and I guess I would understand their answer (although kitbashed ships remaining within the sphere of Ubisoft games would not cost them any profits, it might set a dangerous precedent).

And of course, I think it goes without saying that converting new materials from SHIV back to SHIII is off-limits - taking new game options and bringing them to an older title which has already had most of its sales run could definitely hurt sales of the new product.

EDIT - An installer that would take ships directly from a SHIII installation would work all right for stock ships, but not for kitbashes, clones, or lighted ships. Brand new custom models should not be affected by this issue at all though, unless Ubisoft moved to ban all modding of their files (which I highly doubt they would do).

[jmjohnson36]

As stated in the realease of Silent Hunter 4...the game is intended for modding by the community.

And AG124, as a law professional...Im sure you understand this issue well, but the intent for any game is to be used as directed of the issuing manufacture in this case UBISOFT...with in that intent if the game is modded for profit then that is a breach of the EULA agreement.

Simply, if the game is modded for the intented use...with out profit then that is legal.

:D :D :D

[XanderF]

Ummm...not quite that simple, no.

And surely, if nothing else, you must see the chasm between distributing an installer that can copy files from one directory to another and make some changes to config files, vs posting for free download copyrighted images and 3d models that you'd have to pay $20/$30/$50/whatever for to otherwise get.

[clayton]

I assume that is a message from either Ubisoft, the dev team or both.

Point taken - jmjohnson36, I think you should stop work on this immediately. If this is forbidden, then I'm backing out of the project myself and suggest you do the same. My ships do not qualify as entirely user-created, as they are kitbashed from Ubisoft models - for whatever it will be worth in terms of communkty norms, I am withdrawing permission for them to be converted due to copyright concerns. They only way I will now give permission is if Ubisoft EXPLICTLY states that they don't care if we transfer SHIII ships and derivatives to SHIV. Or at least if they don't care about kitbashes - which would make sense to me as long as they remained within a Ubisoft game, since you they don't actually come with a new copy of SHIII and would be remaining within the framework of Ubisoft intellectual property (doubt they would see it that way though).

Once again - jmjohnson36, I recommend that you follow me and halt the project - not just my kitbashes, but any other work derived from SHIII models as well. You could continue to work on an installer which will take the models and skins from a SHIII install, but that will not work for the kitbashes and lighted ships so you should remove those from the mod and delete any work which you have uploaded to the forum.

:up:

[AG124]

@ XanderF - You are correct; even if Ubisoft has implied that they don't mind modding of this game taking place, they may not allow something of this caliber. I don't know if there would be an issue about posting the models on the internet though - this has been going on in SHIII for several years now without any complaints (and the dev team at least are aware of it - I know that for a fact:know:). They could order us to cease and desist in that regard, but they haven't and I would be surprised if they did at this point.

However, I think they may have an issue with us transferring one content from one game to another, even if they own both games and the game lending the files to the other is old and has run its course. They definitely have the legal right to, as they have the legal right to halt all modding immediately. There is a possibility that they wouldn't though, as there is pretty much no possibility of losing profits from SHIII that way, the files are remaining within Ubisoft games, and the modding would enhance their new product (the sales of which are capable of being affected but in a more positive way). Bringing SHIII up to SHIV standards with SHIV materials would definitely rouse their ire though - I think there should be no more discussion on that subject. However, I would like to know if Ubisoft cares about SHIII to SHIV conversions - they definitely have the right to care and stop it, but maybe an official word would clarify whether they will enforce that right or let us proceed.:hmm:

@ jmjohnston36 - all they have done is imply that they don't mind us modding the game; they have never given explicit permission for uploading materials derived from their own materials and certainly not to offer models to people who may or may not have the game for which one would normally have to pay to get them. If I were you, I'd hold off on the conversions, at least for a little while.

[jmjohnson36]

OK I spoke with a friend of mine who has dealt with this type of stuff before...as I suspected Modding is fine...as long as you do not take profit...and all models belonging to the parent model are sole property of the company who makes the game.

I will contact UBISOFT directly and as them what the actual agreement is.

[jmjohnson36]

7. Will modding be possible with Wolves of the Pacific? What kinds of mods are there?


All simulations should be modable, and ours certainly is. The game allows modding on multiple levels, including the following:

Historical data such as changing the aircraft assigned to airbases, the weapon loadouts of ships, and when weapons become available.
Single missions or patrols can be created and shared with other players or downloaded from the Internet.
Campaign data – adding shipping lanes or historical battles that players can witness, and special objectives that may be assigned to the player.
Unit textures can be added easily and set to change as the war progresses. One can also have a separate version of the ship, with different textures and weapons loadouts operating in the Atlantic, for example – or have the four stacker destroyers painted "British" when flying the White Ensign.
Changing the structure of the submarine, the way crewmembers act inside the submarine, is much easier now.LOOKS LIKE THIS ANSWERS ALOT...I think were all just getting nervous over nothing...if anything they would have said something already with SH3...am I right?:hmm:

contact them directly if you want:
Business office
625 Third Street
San Francisco - CA 94107
Tel: +1 (415) 547 4000
Fax: +1 (415) 547 4001Red Storm Studio
3200 Gateway Centre Boulevard
Suite 100
Morrisville - NC 27560
Tel: +1 (919) 460 1776
Fax: +1 (919) 460 1502

[jmjohnson36]

Beg to differ....files were included with SH4 that were from Sh3...no in reality...you DID purchase those rights...




Just a friendly reminder, though, that you CANNOT REDISTRIBUTE source files (images, 3d models, etc) from Sh3.

This mod could still work, of course, but you must create it in such a way that it copies the files it needs from a user-provided location of their Sh3 install.

And, naturally, any 'user created' ships that were added to Sh3 are perfectly fine to add to Sh4, presuming original author's permission, of course.

[jmjohnson36]

even if you are correct..then this site should close ALL modding...its absurd.

XANDERF do you work for UBISOFT???

Beg to differ....files were included with SH4 that were from Sh3...no in reality...you DID purchase those rights...
Just a friendly reminder, though, that you CANNOT REDISTRIBUTE source files (images, 3d models, etc) from Sh3.

This mod could still work, of course, but you must create it in such a way that it copies the files it needs from a user-provided location of their Sh3 install.

And, naturally, any 'user created' ships that were added to Sh3 are perfectly fine to add to Sh4, presuming original author's permission, of course.

[XanderF]

Beg to differ....files were included with SH4 that were from Sh3...no in reality...you DID purchase those rights...


LOL - try that one in court. "Oh, well, when I bought this $50 game, they gave us a couple of the files from Sh3, so obviously it's perfectly okay to distribute for free all of these files we had to pay for!"

See the problem? Even if ALL the files from Sh3 where in Sh4 - ALL of them - you still can't post them on websites for free download from users that don't have the game.

Posts above agree with the general gist of this thread - MODDING is certainly perfectly fine. I never expected it was in doubt.

Freely distributing copyrighted material, though, is NOT okay.

Very different things.

[JScones]

7. Will modding be possible with Wolves of the Pacific? What kinds of mods are there?


All simulations should be modable, and ours certainly is. The game allows modding on multiple levels, including the following:

Historical data such as changing the aircraft assigned to airbases, the weapon loadouts of ships, and when weapons become available.
Single missions or patrols can be created and shared with other players or downloaded from the Internet.
Campaign data – adding shipping lanes or historical battles that players can witness, and special objectives that may be assigned to the player.
Unit textures can be added easily and set to change as the war progresses. One can also have a separate version of the ship, with different textures and weapons loadouts operating in the Atlantic, for example – or have the four stacker destroyers painted "British" when flying the White Ensign.
Changing the structure of the submarine, the way crewmembers act inside the submarine, is much easier now.LOOKS LIKE THIS ANSWERS ALOT...I think were all just getting nervous over nothing...if anything they would have said something already with SH3...am I right?:hmm:
Ummm, you are looking at this the wrong way around. There is no question that SH4 can be modded. And no-one here seems to be contesting that.

The real question here is whether SH3 MODELS CAN BE EXPORTED AND IMPORTED INTO SH4 (and by SH3 models, does it make a difference if the model is original SH3, kitbashed, or someone's original creation).

THAT is the question one needs to ask. Your above question merely asks what all SH4 modders already know. ;) Indeed, the same topic has been done to death in the SH3 forums...

[Boris]

Indeed,

The only real question is whether stock models should be allowed conversion.

I would stop worrying about the models derived from stock, as they're different ships now anyway. Like pieces of dough kneaded and reformed. Besides, why miss the opportunity to get so many new ships in one hit?
I don't even understand the point of discussing this issue. To who's advantage is it to have pseudo-legal arguments about stuff we want in the game? Things only become a problem once they are made one, and xander has done a great job of setting fire to an issue that didn't need to be inflamed. No point in dousing an issue in petrol and lighting it. (no offence meant xander)

The bad idea about asking ubisoft, is that they're now probably obliged to say no out of principle, when they would have turned a blind eye before. Nice one :(

[CaptainCox]

This is becoming a splitting hair thread...who you think will bring who to court? This is so typical of American reasoning...Maybe you guys should put up waring signs for breathing...it can kill you you know and who are you gonna suit then...

Every game gets modded...ported and mixed and what have you. I am 100% sure the the devs just love the stuff coming out from us guys. I do understand the reasoning of using "models" form a game I did not buy in a game I did buy...but do you really think that UBI or the Dev's care...really?, or is this just about screaming "Wolf"

[Boris]

This is becoming a splitting hair thread...who you think will bring who to court? This is so typical of American reasoning...Maybe you guys should put up waring signs for breathing...it can kill you you know and who are you gonna suit then...

Every game gets modded...ported and mixed and what have you. I am 100% sure the the devs just love the stuff coming out from us guys. I do understand the reasoning of using "models" form a game I did not buy in a game I did buy...but do you really think that UBI or the Dev's care...really?, or is this just about screaming "Wolf"

Thanks :up:

If we let this get out of control, then they will be forced to ban something that might have been allowed otherwise.

[Madox58]

I propose,
for our next trick,
We all run into the woods and poke a sleeping Bear with a stick. :hmm:
:rotfl:

[JScones]

Indeed,

The only real question is whether stock models should be allowed conversion.

I would stop worrying about the models derived from stock, as they're different ships now anyway.
Hehe, I would stop worrying about the whole thing, full stop. Just do it until told otherwise. ;)

Privateer put it nicely.

[AG124]

Alright then, I guess it might be alright to go ahead until Ubisoft says no, which probably won't happen.:yep: Talks about conversions have been going on for awhile now without Ubisoft saying anything (and the dev team does read these forums sometimes).

The bad idea about asking ubisoft, is that they're now probably obliged to say no out of principle, when they would have turned a blind eye before.

You are absolutely correct about this possibility. I imagine it is also the reason for the restrictive EULA and seemingly contradictory statements about permitting modding. In that case, they probably want to preserve their control and decision-making status in regards to their intellectual property while allowing activities which promote their products at the same time. It is a similar principle which is probably at work in this issue - ignoring our conversions allows them to retain the final word while allowing customers to carry out an activity which is either beneficial or harmless to their game (although technically illegal).

[jmjohnson36]

Im going to continue to change over my conversions from Sh3...from what the info I got from UBISOFT...kinda stated they really dont care...Mods happen...as long as its not for profit.

Sh3 ships need to be change...they must be modded to work in SH4...so...it is a mod...even if they are copies of SH3 models.

SO AG124 go or no go?

if so I will release the ships tonight...

[XanderF]

Advice? Stick to distributing the 3d models, config files, whatever that you actually modified. Any textures or anything unmodified from the original Sh3 source, do NOT distribute. If you need them, just have the installer copy them over from the Sh3 folder on the user's system.

That's the best way to stay out of trouble.

[Madox58]

I swear to God!!
I'm gonna start whacking Bears!

[jmjohnson36]

Before we make a comment about copy right infringments...you should have the answers, please not assume...
Did anyone contact UBISOFT?
hmmm

I did today, spoke with licensing people....as I suspected, as long as you do not make profit, and as long as there is a modifacation to the original file it is ok...also ALL mods no matter who makes them are UBISOFTS anyways.

Gabriel is checking on this for me...but from what I got...this is a silly question. SH4 is as SH3 meant to modded...and SH4 was intended to be apart of Sh3...

now we brought the attention of UBISOFT right here over nothing....

[jmjohnson36]

Have the correct info mate...do not ASSUME you are correct.

Advice? Stick to distributing the 3d models, config files, whatever that you actually modified. Any textures or anything unmodified from the original Sh3 source, do NOT distribute. If you need them, just have the installer copy them over from the Sh3 folder on the user's system.

That's the best way to stay out of trouble.

[Madox58]

What's this "WE' crap?
Got a French frog in yer pocket or what?

Never mind, I'm driveing nails in my Bear Hunting stick!!

[AG124]

@ jmjohnson36 - I guess you could proceed with the release for now unless you wanted to wait for word from Ubisoft. It is not a matter of whether I want the models converted though, but whether Ubisoft minds or not. BTW - All of the ships have really been modified anyway, since hex editing and .cfg changes were required to make them compatible with SHIV. If Ubisoft want this stopped, then all they have to do is ask politely. I guess so, anyway. I don't know really know what else to say right now.

:up: Anyway, go for it and re-release the package. If Ubisoft hasn't crushed our modding by now, they probably won't mind this. But I would really avoid converting SHIV materials to SHIII, (not that this is at issue here).

[Hartmann]

This happened before with Silent hunter 2 and Destroyer command. :yep:

The two games used the game engine and the models were fully compatible, this make possible the Pacific campaign mod for silent hunter 2.

If the dev team don´t want it they could make the files incompatibles , also there are A LOT of sh3 files in sh4, cfg files , gauges,textures...

[jmjohnson36]

:up: Well I will release it tonight...with my frog in my pocket...LOL

The main point I do this:

1.Great ships for a great game...and I think everyone should have fun...

OK were off...and if it helps...I take full responsiblity...what can they do to me ...Ive been married 3 times :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

OH let me fix the Sil files first so they work....forgot about that.

This happened before with Silent hunter 2 and Destroyer command. :yep:

The two games used the game engine and the models were fully compatible, this make possible the Pacific campaign mod for silent hunter 2.

If the dev team don´t want it they could make the files incompatibles , also there are A LOT of sh3 files in sh4, cfg files , gauges,textures...

[jmjohnson36]

LOL Im on your side....and so is my frog:smug:

What's this "WE' crap?
Got a French frog in yer pocket or what?

Never mind, I'm driveing nails in my Bear Hunting stick!!

[Madox58]

:up:
And give WE my regards!
:rotfl:

[jmjohnson36]

well this is all WE players...thats whats all about...modding and having fun....
so...here the ships come...:arrgh!:


:up:
And give WE my regards!
:rotfl: