[TEC] Crash Speed

[U-Bones]

I am moving this discussion out of the original thread - It is no longer about zones.cfg.
(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=110934)
This is the 1st test of crash Speed. See below for 2nd test.

New test of 367ft crash depth. Porpoise in Quick Mission Photo Recon

Pseudo log
17:50 352ft Silent Running - f9 compartment has some flashing of lights.
18:00 353ft 1.5kt
18:10 353
18:12 353 occasional Flashing lights in F2 compartment.
18:15 353 no damage
18:17 353 Rig Red
18:20 353 Battle Stations & Damage Crew
18:25 353 Secure from Silent .050720 HULL Damage
18:51 353 Graphical leak in F2 - probably started earlier was using TC
18:51 353 Periscope Depth .229138 HULL Damage
18:54 054 .229138 HULL Damage
18:55 Surfaced - Charging
19:00 Crash Dive
19:01 157 Ahead Std Order 368 feet
19:02 295 Ahead Slow
19:05 350 3kts
19:07 364 flashing lights an sporadic leaks in F2
19:08 367 Silent Running
19:10 368 1.5kt .289664 HULL Damage
19:15 368 1.5kt .289664
19:25 368 1.5 .289664 Major flashing
19:45 369 1.5 .482148 HULL Damage
19:46 369 Taking Damage, Pressure Hull, Batteries --- HULL Damage @ 1.000000 - ouch - was this because i exceeded .499992 and flash flooded ?
19:46 369 Blow Ballast, Surface, Ahead Full
19:47 3-> Laundry list of broken components. No scew turns.
19:48 325 Diesel fuel gone.
19:48 325 Swirl of Death

This felt right. No 3rd party damage in the equation, just hull stressing. Fudge factor in place - starts to degrade hull above crush - it is not a switch. A quick visit to crush and pop back up would probably not effect hull. Hanging out there is risky. It IS a snowball effect

Creep speeds can hold depth if you are undamaged and not leaking. Even works with weak hull. Sub interior gives sufficient clues when you are too deep. Ignore at your own risk.

One hour just above crush - hull at 77% - normal trim and operations. At 77%, can take another 30 minutes at crush. But that is IT. When it fails it fails. Zero flooding until hull fails, minor graphical leaks only.. nothing in saves except hull damage.

Hull failure was catostrophic. Flooding time was not a factor.

I am pretty eager to play these settings vs a few scattered DC's.

Settings used:

NSS_Porpoise.cfg
;===============
max depth set to 250m 820ft (allows suicide dive)

NSS_Porpoise.zon
;==========
Hull HP 425 ; stock is 320?
Crash Depth 112m 367ft - US Navy figures (250 test x 1.5 = crash)
Crash Speed .025 - I am thinking maybe slightly slower (2x) would be perfect.

Zones.cfg
;================
; New Sub Section
;================

[PeriscopeAttack]
Critic Flotation=0.499992 ;;; use lower to see if capped at 50% ?
FloodingTime=200000 ; .000005 a tad faster than slowest

[PeriscopeObservation]
Critic Flotation=0.333333
FloodingTime=1000000 ; .000001 is slowest possible leak
;================

Save files show settings from attack scope were used.

Bulkhead types were set to NULL instead of Wall, but did not seem to be a factor in this scenario. When your hull hits 1.000000 its over. It just lets you play a couple more minutes ;)

Problems I am noticing...
Everything. Gets. Damaged.
Batteries. Always. Die. Hard.
Pumps are self sufficient.
2nd Test:
Using same settings EXCEPT
Crash Speed now set to .0112
My current working formula is Crash Speed = Crash Depth/10000.

17:45 Surfaced. Ahead Std. Order 353ft
17:54 352 Ahead Slow
18:00 353 1.5kt 0.000000 HULL Damage
18:30 353 1.5kt 0.050673 HULL Damage
18:40 353 1.5kt 0.050673 HULL Damage
18:50 353 1.5kt 0.083175 HULL Damage
19:00 353 1.5kt 0.083175 HULL Damage
19:10 353 1.5kt 0.119435 HULL Damage
19:20 353 1.5kt 0.119435 HULL Damage
19:30 353 1.5kt 0.160132 HULL Damage
19:45 353 1.5kt 0.160132 HULL Damage
20:00 353 1.5kt 0.206295 HULL Damage
20:15 353 1.5kt 0.259369 HULL Damage
20:30 353 1.5kt 0.321517 HULL Damage
20:45 353 1.5kt 0.321517 HULL Damage
21:00 353 1.5kt 0.396465 HULL Damage
21:15 353 1.5kt 0.490481 HULL Damage
21:20 353 1.5kt 0.490481 HULL Damage
21:30 353 1.5kt 0.619062 HULL Damage
21:40 353 1.5kt 0.619062 HULL Damage
21:45 353 1.5kt 0.619062 HULL Damage
21:50 353 1.5kt 0.842818 HULL Damage
21:54 Taking Damage Sir
21:54 Batteries 25%
21:54 Batteries Discharged
21:54 Taking Damage Sir
21:54 353 1.5kt 1.000000 HULL Damage
21:55 Laundry List, Death Swirl.

Exactly 4 hours just above crush...

Question: Is pressure modeled, and if so how ?
a) Will it have same rate of damage below crush ?
b) Will it have same rate just above a deeper crush value ?

Suspicions: I think Crash Speed simply sets frequency at which depth is checked and damage is inflicted if too deep. Relative depth (to Crash) determines how much damage is inflicted. Hopefully, absolute depth is modeled also. Will test these questions next.

My opinion is that a hull failure after 4 hours at ~crush is pretty fair. Thoughts ?

[Redwine]

Suspicions: I think Crash Speed simply sets frequency at which depth is checked and damage is inflicted if too deep.

Then... a bigger value will means a slowly hull destroy ?

in example a value of 10 means the damage is checked avery 10 senods ?

And will be a slow sink than with a vlaue of 1 ?

Wonderful research !!! :up:

[U-Bones]

Suspicions: I think Crash Speed simply sets frequency at which depth is checked and damage is inflicted if too deep.
Then... a bigger value will means a slowly hull destroy ?

in example a value of 10 means the damage is checked avery 10 senods ?

And will be a slow sink than with a vlaue of 1 ?

Wonderful research !!! :up:
No, the default value is 2.0, which is very fast. I used 0.025, which sank me in about 1.5 hours, then 0.0112 which took 4 hours.

Smaller speed = less frequent damage check. I do not have any data on how it relates to minutes or seconds.

[Redwine]

Suspicions: I think Crash Speed simply sets frequency at which depth is checked and damage is inflicted if too deep.
Then... a bigger value will means a slowly hull destroy ?

in example a value of 10 means the damage is checked avery 10 senods ?

And will be a slow sink than with a vlaue of 1 ?

Wonderful research !!! :up:
No, the default value is 2.0, which is very fast. I used 0.025, which sank me in about 1.5 hours, then 0.0112 which took 4 hours.

Smaller speed = less frequent damage check. I do not have any data on how it relates to minutes or seconds.

Ok.... :up::up::up:

[U-Bones]

More tests - same settings.
Test Depth is 246 75m
Crash Depth is 367ft 112m
Crash Speed is .0112

241ft @ 1.5kt - no damage until I got DC'd and sunk at 5h 19m. lol
246ft Test Depth
252ft @ 1.5kt - no damage after 9 hours, dive to 400 ft, surface, zero damage.
277ft @ 1.5kt - 4% at 3h, Crash at 5h 57m
328ft @ 1.5kt - 14% at 2h, Crash at 4h 47m
353ft @ 1.5kt - 5% at 30min, 39%3h, Crash 4h
367ft Crash Depth
382ft @ 1.5kt - 6% at 30min, 61% 3h, Crash 3h 12m
408ft @ 1.5kt - 8% in 30min, 65% at 2.5h, Crash 2h 46m

Looks like pressure is factored, but relative to Test depth not Crash.

I will test a Balao next.
Comments ?

[U-Bones]

Gato tests (Balao was too annoying with 450 ft dials)

500 hp
.0135 Crash Speed
135m Crash Depth (443ft)
90m Implied Test Depth (295ft)
1.5kt Ahead 1/3

310ft - after 18 hours only .0011 damage
318ft - after 9 hours only .0012 damage
330ft - after 6 hours .10 damage, 9 hours .25, 11h 46m crush
401ft - after 3 hours .31 damage, 4h 34m crush

Damage is applied shortly after test depth instead of near crash depth.

My thinking is that damage should not be applied until you get nearer crash depth, and then it should be less gradual than the tests above, but not instant pop.

To accomplish that with the way things work will require "padding" crash depth - I will use about 1.45 * desired value - and increase crash speed. This will also result in a more "fuzzy" setting.

I am thinking for my next test of the Gato,
195m crash (639ft)
.195 crash speed
128m implied "test" depth (420ft) - ~130m start taking damage (~426ft)

Thoughts ?

[Redwine]

Many thanks, Very interesting... :up:

After pass the crush depth.... you still having the irreversible sinking ?

[U-Bones]

Many thanks, Very interesting... :up:

After pass the crush depth.... you still having the irreversible sinking ?

Not if you get back up before the hull is crushed ;)

Crash Speed has a lot to do with that.
Default is 2
I am currently using .01+++ - less than 1% of default
Next test will use .1+++ between 5%-10% of default

[Redwine]

Many thanks, Very interesting... :up:

After pass the crush depth.... you still having the irreversible sinking ?
Not if you get back up before the hull is crushed ;)

Crash Speed has a lot to do with that.
Default is 2
I am currently using .01+++ - less than 1% of default
Next test will use .1+++ between 5%-10% of default

You dont understand me...:up: if you pass the crush depth, but with a slow crashspeed you are able to rise your sub to shallow depths, the hull continues its damage and destroy proccess ?

That seems to happen with the curious "unreversible sink"....

[U-Bones]

Many thanks, Very interesting... :up:

After pass the crush depth.... you still having the irreversible sinking ?
Not if you get back up before the hull is crushed ;)

Crash Speed has a lot to do with that.
Default is 2
I am currently using .01+++ - less than 1% of default
Next test will use .1+++ between 5%-10% of default
You dont understand me...:up: if you pass the crush depth, but with a slow crashspeed you are able to rise your sub to shallow depths, the hull continues its damage and destroy proccess ?

That seems to happen with the curious "unreversible sink"....

I do not believe the irresistable sink is related to the hull. You can hold depth with creep speed until the second the hull collapses. I have not tested taking a damaged hull back up to safe levels for extended periods, but the short pop back up to surface I did in test one leads me to believe that going back above test with a 50% hull will stop the damage. I will take a stressed hull back up above test and check it for an extended period tonight.

It is my thought that the unreversable sink is related to bulkhead and compartment damage. Which reminds me, I need to set my bulkheads back to type=wall and repeat some of these tests for a sanity check.

[Redwine]

I do not believe the irresistable sink is related to the hull. You can hold depth with creep speed until the second the hull collapses. I have not tested taking a damaged hull back up to safe levels for extended periods, but the short pop back up to surface I did in test one leads me to believe that going back above test with a 50% hull will stop the damage. I will take a stressed hull back up above test and check it for an extended period tonight.

It is my thought that the unreversable sink is related to bulkhead and compartment damage. Which reminds me, I need to set my bulkheads back to type=wall and repeat some of these tests for a sanity check.

Good ! :up:

Nothing seems to works to avoid the unreversible sink... :hmm:

[U-Bones]

Many thanks, Very interesting... :up:

After pass the crush depth.... you still having the irreversible sinking ?
Not if you get back up before the hull is crushed ;)

Crash Speed has a lot to do with that.
Default is 2
I am currently using .01+++ - less than 1% of default
Next test will use .1+++ between 5%-10% of default
You dont understand me...:up: if you pass the crush depth, but with a slow crashspeed you are able to rise your sub to shallow depths, the hull continues its damage and destroy proccess ?

That seems to happen with the curious "unreversible sink"....
OK Redwine, I tested your question

Same Gato as before, same settings
Before : 401ft - after 3 hours .31 damage, 4h 34m crush
Now: 401ft = after 3.5 hours .373276 Damage.
Order PD recheck - same damage
Cruise at PD 6 hours. Damage is now .424262 - 5% more damage.
Order Surface, recharge.
Order PD. Cruise 6 hours. Damage stable
Cruise addition 4 hours. Damage stable.
Order Surface, recharge.
Order depth 149.
After 2 hours no additional damage
After 8 hours no additional damage.

So it seems that once you start damage, it will continue until you surface. Once you do so, the sub should be somewhat servicable. Please note that this is 100% just hull damage that NEVER shows up anywhere except the save game, and that you never have any trouble keeping depth with 1/3 Ahead. In game the only clue you have is blinking lights and occasional minor graphical leaks.

I am going to redo this test with my bulkheads set back to type=wall. I expect no major difference.

[U-Bones]

Repeated test with stock bulkheads. Test was almost dead on repeat, within 1%, except this time when I surfaced and reset the damage flags (?), I took light deck gun damage and hull was damaged from .418321 to .500452. I repeated the test from that point on with the same results as far as the hull damage goes - it was stabilized once I surfaced.

However, the deck gun damage just had to spread to both aa guns... that is a seperate and ugly feature that I sure hope is fixed in 1.2...

OK next I am going to test the padded crash depth with faster crash speed. I am aiming for damage that is more sudden and serious, and closer to crash depth than test. I find it silly taking damage barely over test depth.

[Jungman]

I do thank you for going through the trouble to make these good discoverys.

I had some damage with a graphical picture of a pipe water burst (but no sound??). I wonder about. I had damage that was fixed. So I went to surface and the water finally leak stopped. I guess it reset as you said.

I was able to back to periscope depth without no more hull continue to show crush damage (steam, extra light blink, electrical spark but no sound), unti I went 200 feet then I got the death spiral.

So that would explain it. If you have damage to pressure hull, even though it is fixed, you still get damage some until you surface to stop the further damage and it resets. Still learning your data results.:cool:

[U-Bones]

New Gato. 500HP.
I tried at desired crash x 1.45 (135 x 1.45 = 195m) for the padding
I set crash speed to .0426 which was about the depth i expected to take damage (more importantly a little over double my previous number).
I found I took no damage even at hours at 440ft, so I blew tanks.

I tried desired crash x 1.33 (135 x 1.33 = 180m) for the padding
I tried desired crash in feet/10000 as crash speed (.0442)

09:05 order 408 1/3
12:00 0% hull damage order 436ft
13:00 .022741
14:00 .090800
15:36 1.000000 Crash
----- reloaded 14:00
15:00 .247431
15:15 .359715
15:25 .565042
15:30 .565042
15:35 .565042 (immediate crash when resume)
----- reloaded 15:25 ordered surface std blow tanks
15:30 .612368 on surface std
15:30 ordered 100 1/3
18:30 .630399
20:00 .630399 Order PD
02:00 .630399

This seems maybe too gentle to me (edit:maybe not - just noticed 3.5h instead of 5.5h - tired and sloppy). Basically on the high side of the damage zone, it is taking 3.5 hours (not 5.5) to crush. Also the slower crash speed may be exploitable for quick trips to 600 and back... note the 10+ minutes without a damage pulse above. I do like that the damage starts around where it does though, the padding x1.33 is decent.

Thoughts ?

[Ducimus]

So it seems that once you start damage, it will continue until you surface.

Thats what ive experienced. You know , i was just thinking. In SH3 there was basically just one pressurehull. While there was compartments, the overall pressurehull seemed to act as one singular object. Or at least, so is my impression. BUt in SH4, its like.. we now have 4 or 5 different pressurehulls, and each one acts like it's the only pressurehull in the boat, as indicated by how EVERYTHING goes after any single one folds in. In otherwords, its not localized anymore. If the hull was localized, then only one compartment would be damaged, no?

it's late, im tired and rambeling. :roll:

[Redwine]

So it seems that once you start damage, it will continue until you surface. Once you do so, the sub should be somewhat servicable.

That was parto of my question, the damage seems to continues when submerged, i exoerienced the same, but i let the sub on surface later, i receive the message all damage reapired sir, or so similar, and sail a good time.... bulkhead repaired, and when submerged another time.... the ship starts to sink.

The intersting if this way can works is... if we can reduce the crash speed, to a balanced value, to give you time to reach the surface and repair the hulll.

The matter is, after a good time of surface sailing, if you can dive another time without sink.

This way can have a good and a bad point.

The good is, may be we have a chance to avoid the "unreversable sink", the bad is the sub become so resistent to the "crush pressure"

:up::up::up:

[U-Bones]

So it seems that once you start damage, it will continue until you surface. Once you do so, the sub should be somewhat servicable.

That was parto of my question, the damage seems to continues when submerged, i exoerienced the same, but i let the sub on surface later, i receive the message all damage reapired sir, or so similar, and sail a good time.... bulkhead repaired, and when submerged another time.... the ship starts to sink.

The intersting if this way can works is... if we can reduce the crash speed, to a balanced value, to give you time to reach the surface and repair the hulll.

The matter is, after a good time of surface sailing, if you can dive another time without sink.

This way can have a good and a bad point.

The good is, may be we have a chance to avoid the "unreversable sink", the bad is the sub become so resistent to the "crush pressure"

:up::up::up:
Hull damage acts entirely differently than battle damage. I am finding hull damage to be modeled fairly sanely, other than the bizarre need to completely surface. I guess you can think of it as a chance to inspect and patch

Compartment and equipment on the other hand, do all kinds of unexpected things, especially bulkheads. Bulkheads get referred to as "pressure hull damage" but they are simply components, supposedly interior walls, that act like they are exterior walls. They do not influence the hull HP as far as I can tell, but they do have a dramatic impact on displacement. They should isolate leaks to a single compartment, problem is when a compartment gets damaged, nearly -everything- in the compartment is toast - meaning no leak isolation. As far as I see, bulkheads are more of a problem than a cool addition. I hope this is one of the things they tweak in 1.2

[U-Bones]

So it seems that once you start damage, it will continue until you surface.
Thats what ive experienced. You know , i was just thinking. In SH3 there was basically just one pressurehull. While there was compartments, the overall pressurehull seemed to act as one singular object. Or at least, so is my impression. BUt in SH4, its like.. we now have 4 or 5 different pressurehulls, and each one acts like it's the only pressurehull in the boat, as indicated by how EVERYTHING goes after any single one folds in. In otherwords, its not localized anymore. If the hull was localized, then only one compartment would be damaged, no?

it's late, im tired and rambeling. :roll:
I think the hull is still a singular opject, and it can be tweaked to act reasonably.

The problem starts when they start taking internal components and assigning them hull duties, and making us all think there are multiple hulls. Yes I know IRL bulkheads provide structural integrity, but lack of it it should have simply inflicted damage to the singular hull, and not be capable of starting leaks - their role is to contain them once started.

Instead they make the boat seem like its falling apart and suddenly made of lead.

I have been DC'd or attacked by AC several times while testing and have played them out - I really do think the type=wall/null makes bulkheads act differently. I will be looking at compartment and equipment damage once I get the hull sorted out.

Everything at once damage is what make it not work for me.

[Ducimus]

Have you increased the Bullkhead hitpoints at all?

edit: it's that bloody chain reaction, domino effect. Seems to me thats the crux of the problem. I know im citing the obvious thats already been covered, im just thinking aloud is all, i havent gone back to look at this issue in awhile. Might be a moot point anyway, as the next patch notes said their tweaking sub damage model.

[U-Bones]

Have you increased the Bullkhead hitpoints at all?
No I am just isolating hull damage by pressure at this point, and I intend to stay away from increasing hit points. I will even leave hull HP at stock if they are sane after 1.2.

I intend to release a simple crash depth mod shortly after 1.2 is released, then start delving into non-hull damage - after their damage mods are in place.

1) Wet Compartments
2) Dry Compartments
3) Equipment by Type

I am hoping the recurring damage will be fixed in 1.2. I am hoping that the invisible damage that sinks you will be fixed in 1.2. If so, my priority will bes learning how to isolate damage and removing the "its ALL broke" syndrome within a compartment.

I think I know where armor class went, and if I am right, this will help in this persuit.

edit: yes on domino, yes on wait on patch ;)

[Redwine]

As far as I see, bulkheads are more of a problem than a cool addition. I hope this is one of the things they tweak in 1.2

Agree with you... :up:

[Ducimus]

It might be worth understanding this bit in the equipment.upc file, in particualr the bulkhead:


;DamageDescription1= Taken_DamageType, - MinDamage - MaxDamage - MinMaintenance - MaxMaintenance - chancefactor - Message - Spawned_damage_HP - Spawned_damage_AP - Spawned_Damage_Type - EfficiencyReduction - repair_skill - repairtime_in_hours

DamageDescription1= -------NULL,--------------0-----------,0.2,------------0,--------------1------------------,1,------Minor Leak--------,0,------------------0,--------------------NULL----------------,0,---------------------0.2,------------------0.2
DamageDescription2= -------NULL,--------------0.2,---------0.6,------------0,--------------1,------------------1,------Large hole,--------0,------------------0--------------------,NULL,--------------- 0,---------------------0.2,------------------0.5
DamageDescription3= -------NULL,--------------0.6,---------1,--------------0,--------------1,------------------1,------Wall breached,-----0,------------------0--------------------,NULL,----------------0,--------------------0.2,--------------------1

[U-Bones]

It might be worth understanding this bit in the equipment.upc file, in particualr the bulkhead:


;DamageDescription1= Taken_DamageType, - MinDamage - MaxDamage - MinMaintenance - MaxMaintenance - chancefactor - Message - Spawned_damage_HP - Spawned_damage_AP - Spawned_Damage_Type - EfficiencyReduction - repair_skill - repairtime_in_hours

DamageDescription1= -------NULL,--------------0-----------,0.2,------------0,--------------1------------------,1,------Minor Leak--------,0,------------------0,--------------------NULL----------------,0,---------------------0.2,------------------0.2
DamageDescription2= -------NULL,--------------0.2,---------0.6,------------0,--------------1,------------------1,------Large hole,--------0,------------------0--------------------,NULL,--------------- 0,---------------------0.2,------------------0.5
DamageDescription3= -------NULL,--------------0.6,---------1,--------------0,--------------1,------------------1,------Wall breached,-----0,------------------0--------------------,NULL,----------------0,--------------------0.2,--------------------1


Yes, but I think it is more about classification and disposition of damage already applied. I will be looking at understanding the application of damage at first, with the hope of controlling or preventing to a degree.

[Ducimus]

Yah. The most you can get out of that is to shorten the repair time. In theory, if the pressurehull equipment piece is a cuase of flooding then fixing that, you would think mimize the flooding.

I think im going to start looking at the zones.cfg more. Its worth noting that for testing damage, ive rigged torpedos to run circular every time. So its like getting smacked with a depth charge ever test run, but it sort of speeds up the process of the magical domino effect.

Ive also noticed (at least in the porpoise) that the flickering ilghts and such is more prominant in the conning tower. If you stay in the control room the whole time you might never notice the lights flickering. About the only indicator is the leaking water.

[U-Bones]

Yah. The most you can get out of that is to shorten the repair time. In theory, if the pressurehull equipment piece is a cuase of flooding then fixing that, you would think mimize the flooding.

I think im going to start looking at the zones.cfg more. Its worth noting that for testing damage, ive rigged torpedos to run circular every time. So its like getting smacked with a depth charge ever test run, but it sort of speeds up the process of the magical domino effect.

Ive also noticed (at least in the porpoise) that the flickering ilghts and such is more prominant in the conning tower. If you stay in the control room the whole time you might never notice the lights flickering. About the only indicator is the leaking water.
Floodingspeed = 0.000001 is the slowest possible setting and I have already figured out how to do that. It is a Compartment only setting. The hull itself is not causing flooding - it is the pseudo hull bulkheads IMO. The hull itself works perfectly until it fails catostrophically.

I hadn't noticed that about the Porpoise, but I will recheck - I really like that boat and it is my game favorite I think.

Edit: LOL, I was testing the door open keys, and fired a salvo. I noticed I had one running circular and manuevered into place. Engine room was a mess, big hole all the way through the boat graphically. All damage was repaired in short order, but the hull was still damaged at .24something. It never gets repaired (refit / new patrol ?).

I thought it was pretty funny that a hit like that was survivable - it should have been totaled.

[Ducimus]

One thing ive learned is once you get damaged like that, you cannot dive again, which i completely agree with. Last test run i reduced compartment hitpoints to 1, shot myself with a torpedo, got the boat to the surface, but the instant i tried to submerge again, she sank like a stone. You should have seen the dive angle, it was near vertical, quite halarious. Anyway Right now im just studying the effects after toying with different variables.

edit: I
Im thinking the domino effect is an arbitrary decision made by the game. And any percentage loss to any one of the bulkheads, seems like its being applied to the sub as a whole. Not just the one bulkhead.

Mechanically speaking its the same effect from Sh3, on its applied differenty. Sh3 applied the crushing damage to hull integrity (IE, Hitpoints), whereas Sh4 seems to be applying it to components and sub hitpoints as well? Im not sure but its looking at more then SH3 did, that is for certain. Anyway im not sure the domino effect can be stopped, only the time it takes for the laundry list to appear, to be slowed down.

[U-Bones]

Wow. I just went through for another round and had a peek at stock numbers for a reference.

As it turns out, the "desired" Crash Depth x 1.33 was almost dead on to what they used in 1.1 for padding.

Crash Depth/Speed Combos Ubi then mine

S18 122/2.0 120/.09
Por 150/2.0 149/.112
Sal 152/2.0 150/.112
Sar 152/2.0 150/.112
Tam 152/2.0 151/.112
Gat 190/2.0 180/.135
Bal 240/2.0 239/.18


Major difference is simply that my crash speed is radically slower. Note that this iteration is over twice as fast as my last test. I reset HP to stock on all subs.

I am going to play with this until 1.2, no more real testing - just for "feel".

[CaptainHaplo]

Ok guys - maybe I am being a bit boneheaded here - and if so chalk it up to my lack of experience in modding. I did some of my own stuff for sh3 - but for personal consumption only as I never got results I was happy with. However, with the fubar damage model I see - and what you guys are testing - I am going to make a couple of observations. By all means - correct me if I am wrong on anything!

Zones.cfg - pretty useless now for sub edits
Classname.UPC - where all the real internals are at now.

The damage issue of the deathspiral seems to be not an issue of "visible" flooding - which I will get to in a minute - but accumulated damage to an area results in unreported (but flotationally important damage). This is the cause of the things appearing 100% fixed - but your boat not being able to gain a neutral bouyant state. Now if this is the case - you have equipment damage that "fixed" become functional - but contributes to decreasing your ability to float.

Like I said - this may be boneheaded - but why not make all the equipment "weightless" for purposes of floatability? That way - accumulated damage wont affect the displacement of your boat. Not sure how to do that as I havent found any displacement or floatability variables for the subs equipment in either the zones.cfg or in any of the UPC files for the subs. Zones seems to be a mere holdover from sh3.

This is the only way I can see that could reasonably explain why a sub at 100% repair and no flooding can still sink like a rock.

Next item is bulkheads. IRL a bulkhead keeps flooding from spreading from one compartment to another. In SH4 - it seems its the bulkhead that LEAKS - instead of the hull! Since the bulkhead is internal to the hull - this has obvious flaws to start with. But consider this - remember how each SH3 "room" was its own entity with equipment? Maybe try looking at the bulkhead AS the room - instead of fixing the room your fixing the "bulkhead". Its not realistic - but if we can control bulkhead damage - everything might fall into place.

Hull damage itself only seems to have an effect of damage caused by depth - aka hull stress leading to crush. If we look at it that way - we have 2 damage models working here - one internal - and one external. They do overlap as external will apply damage internally - but (I suspect) internal only affects floatability - thus only having an INDIRECT effect on the external model.

My ability to mod - and my patience and attention to detail - are limited - so instead of spending hours on something that will just drive me bonkers - I figured I would throw out the thoughts and see what comes of it. I will be fiddling as I can with some numbers - but I have to apologize that I cant match the dedication of many of you.

Hopefully these thoughts help - or your corrections will at least help me understand what I am doing a bit more.

Thanks and good hunting
Captain Haplo

[U-Bones]

Ok guys - maybe I am being a bit boneheaded here - and if so chalk it up to my lack of experience in modding. I did some of my own stuff for sh3 - but for personal consumption only as I never got results I was happy with. However, with the fubar damage model I see - and what you guys are testing - I am going to make a couple of observations. By all means - correct me if I am wrong on anything!

Zones.cfg - pretty useless now for sub edits
Classname.UPC - where all the real internals are at now.

The damage issue of the deathspiral seems to be not an issue of "visible" flooding - which I will get to in a minute - but accumulated damage to an area results in unreported (but flotationally important damage). This is the cause of the things appearing 100% fixed - but your boat not being able to gain a neutral bouyant state. Now if this is the case - you have equipment damage that "fixed" become functional - but contributes to decreasing your ability to float.

Like I said - this may be boneheaded - but why not make all the equipment "weightless" for purposes of floatability? That way - accumulated damage wont affect the displacement of your boat. Not sure how to do that as I havent found any displacement or floatability variables for the subs equipment in either the zones.cfg or in any of the UPC files for the subs. Zones seems to be a mere holdover from sh3.

This is the only way I can see that could reasonably explain why a sub at 100% repair and no flooding can still sink like a rock.

Next item is bulkheads. IRL a bulkhead keeps flooding from spreading from one compartment to another. In SH4 - it seems its the bulkhead that LEAKS - instead of the hull! Since the bulkhead is internal to the hull - this has obvious flaws to start with. But consider this - remember how each SH3 "room" was its own entity with equipment? Maybe try looking at the bulkhead AS the room - instead of fixing the room your fixing the "bulkhead". Its not realistic - but if we can control bulkhead damage - everything might fall into place.

Hull damage itself only seems to have an effect of damage caused by depth - aka hull stress leading to crush. If we look at it that way - we have 2 damage models working here - one internal - and one external. They do overlap as external will apply damage internally - but (I suspect) internal only affects floatability - thus only having an INDIRECT effect on the external model.

My ability to mod - and my patience and attention to detail - are limited - so instead of spending hours on something that will just drive me bonkers - I figured I would throw out the thoughts and see what comes of it. I will be fiddling as I can with some numbers - but I have to apologize that I cant match the dedication of many of you.

Hopefully these thoughts help - or your corrections will at least help me understand what I am doing a bit more.

Thanks and good hunting
Captain Haplo

I think you are more right than wrong and you have good instincts. I just posted on this topic in another thread. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112680

I think much of what we used to twiddle with in zones.cfg is now internal to the NSS_*.zon file itself. However it is interesting to note that they introduced NEW compartments in the uboat section of zones.cfg in 1.2....

[U-Bones]

I have decided I am not going to do anything with this for various reasons. So anyone who has an itch, please scratch.

[Kataki]

I realise you arent going to be doing anything with this as far as mods go but...

Crash Speed= the speed at which your boat is seemingly damaged by just having damage while submereged, correct?

Atm I have a save game where I have been DC'ed and have lights flashing, and water spraying, but I have repaired all the damage I can. After about 5 or so minutes my boat just dies with out any farther warnings (until the death cam is already playing and then it reports every item on the ship as broke). If I were to increase the Crash speed would it stop this from happening, at least for a bit?

If so I'd appreciate it if you could help me change that value as I dont have a clue where its at.

[U-Bones]

I realise you arent going to be doing anything with this as far as mods go but...

Crash Speed= the speed at which your boat is seemingly damaged by just having damage while submereged, correct?

Atm I have a save game where I have been DC'ed and have lights flashing, and water spraying, but I have repaired all the damage I can. After about 5 or so minutes my boat just dies with out any farther warnings (until the death cam is already playing and then it reports every item on the ship as broke). If I were to increase the Crash speed would it stop this from happening, at least for a bit?

If so I'd appreciate it if you could help me change that value as I dont have a clue where its at.

The crash speed for your boat is set when you leave port. I'm sure it persists in the saves somewhere, but I'm sorry I have no idea which bits or which file.

[Redwine]

I realise you arent going to be doing anything with this as far as mods go but...

Crash Speed= the speed at which your boat is seemingly damaged by just having damage while submereged, correct?

Atm I have a save game where I have been DC'ed and have lights flashing, and water spraying, but I have repaired all the damage I can. After about 5 or so minutes my boat just dies with out any farther warnings (until the death cam is already playing and then it reports every item on the ship as broke). If I were to increase the Crash speed would it stop this from happening, at least for a bit?

If so I'd appreciate it if you could help me change that value as I dont have a clue where its at.
The crash speed for your boat is set when you leave port. I'm sure it persists in the saves somewhere, but I'm sorry I have no idea which bits or which file.
I am working on tweak that, i reach a good long way to die.

But the problem you described is still present. My crew reach to manage many quick sinks, many floods, many BulkHead repairs... but.

Some times with no visible item to repair or damage at screen, you are able to dive a new time, many times, and with no problems.

Another times, the sub start to sink with no advice.

I think so it works similar to SH III, even when you repair all, your hull is stressed, in SH II we had a XX % of hull integrity showd, but here not.

You have not advice of your hull is so stressed.

I thnik so, BulkHead red bar must to be in sight when it happens to advice you, but we have not it. :dead:

If you want my present job to try, just send me a PM. :up: