View Full Version : Please don't make the AI too difficult
AntEater
04-09-07, 07:24 AM
Recent mods have made the AI actually too difficult to be historic.
I'm using RFB and Flavored to taste over another (FTT overwriting RFB, except for campaign) and the japanese are just too good in spotting me.
In 1942 I was accurately detected and depth charged at 350 feet while on silent running and under a thermal layer.
Merchants spot me at night at ranges around 5000 yards, making night attacks on single merchants impossible.
Convoy night attacks in 1944 are also impossible because all escorts seem to have radar and run me down before I can get a visual on the merchants.
This is not the Battle of the Atlantic, so while the original AI was abmysal, the mods seem to have overdone it a bit.
I suppose the right way of doing this is rather editing skill levels in the campaign layer, than turning up AI sensors to paranormal levels...;)
Otherwise, keep up the good work! :)
Most of those issues are probably (I'm just guesssing) added by FTT. Ducimus designed it to be flavoured to his taste but the good news is he descibes his changes in the readmes so you can disable the mod and either remove the files you disagree with from the mod directory or tone down changes and then re-enable it.
Actually I don't believe the visual efficiency has anything to do with the mods. It's in the default game and yes, it is a problem. I'm hoping for it to be fixed up eventually - NYGM managed to do that quite successfuly with SHIII.
DiveMonkey
04-09-07, 12:18 PM
I am a bit worried about this as well,
it's true the Japanese are sometimes to easy, sometimes down right stupid. But here's my problem.
Come across a convoy, most any convoy and you can be facing upward of 6 to 8 DD's!...In the Atlantic I was facing 3 or 4 sometimes 5 depending on where I was hunting.
What they lack in brains they make up for in numbers :o
The other problem I have is AI ability to go from a cold start...dead in the water!...to 30 knts in the blink of an eye!
JUST AS I FIRE MY TORPEDO! :damn:
Ducimus
04-09-07, 01:18 PM
Most of those issues are probably (I'm just guesssing) added by FTT. Ducimus designed it to be flavoured to his taste but the good news is he descibes his changes in the readmes so you can disable the mod and either remove the files you disagree with from the mod directory or tone down changes and then re-enable it.
I did design my mod to have harder AI, and im not even done with it yet :arrgh!: No, im not paying attention to historical accuracy on the level of difficulty of the AI, im just tweaking the game so it presents more of a challenge. Being able to evade unscathed all the time, to me makes the game boring and dull. If your familiar with the details on how to evade the AI, its really not hard at all. (see this thread if your not: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377 )
But overall, as the mods name implies, its a game "flavored to taste", and i try and keep up on my documention of the changes so you can change things more to your own liking.
edit: Evasion tips:
- Night surface attack. Be mindful of your silloute and speed. The more speed you have, the easier you are to spot. Ideally, give the AI only your bow and dont cruise faster then 8 kts. Plan your approach carefully, and do an end-round attack when out of their line of sight. (admittidy, i could probably tone down the AI's night vision a tad)
- In my last version i removed the hydrophone's thermal layer, and toned down the active sonars themal layer. So its not such a klingon cloaking device anymore. Active sonar you r shielded some, but hydrophones your not. State of the sea, is important to you. In calm seas its not just enough to go to 1/3rd and silent runing. Bring the boat down to 1kt and creep. (if its still too hard, rengage the klingon cloaking device in the sim.cfg :88) )
edit:
I just decided, that i guess next revision of my mod (to be posted in a day or two), ill tone down the AI's night vision, and hydrophone ablities a touch. Hopefully that will make everyone happy. ;)
Whilst we are on the subject of vision, does anyone know why the 'Visual uses crew efficiency' toggle in the sensors.cfg is set to false? Does this not meen that it doesn't matter what skill rating they are they will always see you?
I've changed mine to 'true' just for giggles and I do seem to be able to get closer into the convoy I'm stalking but I'm not sure whether changing that setting has any effect on whats going on.
Whilst we are on the subject of vision, does anyone know why the 'Visual uses crew efficiency' toggle in the sensors.cfg is set to false? Does this not meen that it doesn't matter what skill rating they are they will always see you?
I've changed mine to 'true' just for giggles and I do seem to be able to get closer into the convoy I'm stalking but I'm not sure whether changing that setting has any effect on whats going on.
Sensors.cfg controls your crew's sensors, not the enemy's! The enemy is all in sim.cfg.
Ducimus
04-09-07, 02:03 PM
I seriously need to work on that file too. Watch crew's ablitiy to spot planes, while im sure is accurate, feels a bit lacking when you combine the whole picture of all the variables at play. To be honest, that is a file i totaly forgot about, and only saw it used in context with a 16KM visual distance mod.
Definitely take a look at the crew. I'm (mostly) using your sensor model at the moment, and it's my suspicion that in certain situation, especially when you jack up the TC, the enemy spotting ability can exceed your crew's, and then it gets ugly.
Ducimus
04-09-07, 02:22 PM
I notice it primarly on planes. If you run with map updates on, and watch an incoming plane, you'll find yourself about halfway into the planes visual distance before the plane becomes visible to you. Its fairly consistant. In metric terms, at 1300ish TC, the plane isnt spotted tell around 4700 to 4800 meters.
with ships, ya i have ths same susption. Ive noticed when doing an endround attack on a clear/calm day, if im broadside to him, at 20 kts, it feels like hes detecting me outside his visual radius sometimes. Because he starts to zig zag, and id swear that i wasnt inside the visual arc yet.
I think Visual Range Factor is where you go in that case. Perhaps the sensors .sim file is worth reviewing as well.
Recent mods have made the AI actually too difficult to be historic.
I'm using RFB and Flavored to taste over another (FTT overwriting RFB, except for campaign) and the japanese are just too good in spotting me.
It's not RFB. The only changes I've made to the AI are ones that make them less effective. I'm sure that the standard game has far too effective AI even though some players have said it's too easy. Most casual players tend to want to be given a hard time on patrol #1 and if they don't get that they complain about stupid AI, but in real life it was really hard for the Japanese to sink a sub unless they got very lucky.
RFB is focused on getting realistic results for careers. If that means most players are going to find that boring, so be it. RFB will never exaggerate the historical experience just for the sake of giving players lots of explosions and tense escapes. There will be other mods for that sort of fantasy nonsense.
By the way, if you install any mod over RFB you're not using RFB anymore. It's only RFB if it's ONLY RFB. ;)
Ducimus
04-09-07, 05:54 PM
I'm sure that the standard game has far too effective AI even though some players have said it's too easy
Well, the standard AI makes a pretty screensaver, ill give it that much.
The default AI detection DOES need work Beery, not to make it harder but to make it a little more... alive, shall we say.
You're right, it IS very effective, but only in certain circumstances. For example there's the fact that the AI is not even set on 'competent' early in the war, when in fact Japanese ASW didn't exactly improve through the course of the war. This severely affects the early war escorts (which are anemic) and skews results for late war escorts (which may be disproportionately deadly). There needs to be a middle ground, one that doesn't make things too hard but does make the enemy at least, well, get a little angry when they find you. Not to say neccesarily effective.
Captain_Jack
04-09-07, 06:06 PM
Recent mods have made the AI actually too difficult to be historic.
I'm using RFB and Flavored to taste over another (FTT overwriting RFB, except for campaign) and the japanese are just too good in spotting me.
In 1942 I was accurately detected and depth charged at 350 feet while on silent running and under a thermal layer.
Merchants spot me at night at ranges around 5000 yards, making night attacks on single merchants impossible.
Convoy night attacks in 1944 are also impossible because all escorts seem to have radar and run me down before I can get a visual on the merchants.
This is not the Battle of the Atlantic, so while the original AI was abmysal, the mods seem to have overdone it a bit.
I suppose the right way of doing this is rather editing skill levels in the campaign layer, than turning up AI sensors to paranormal levels...;)
Otherwise, keep up the good work! :)
Many of us share your same concerns in fact I have made similar posts. You're right, this is not the Battle of the Atlantic. Some have tweaked the AI to make better use of "gameplay". But if you are looking for a more realistic experience the RFB Folks are putting together quite a fine masterpiece. Best not to mix the two Mods though I'm guessing.
Ducimus
04-09-07, 06:23 PM
late war escorts (which may be disproportionately deadly)
I have three words for that.
crew rating 4.
And their all over the place. I thought about taking them out, but decided not to just yet.
late war escorts (which may be disproportionately deadly)
I have three words for that.
crew rating 4.
And their all over the place. I thought about taking them out, but decided not to just yet.
Geez, Elite?
I think they should be taken out except for some wild exceptions (Bungo Pete?).
Even in SHIII, I believe modders eventually decided to reserve these for extreme cases, e.g. Walker's group - and there ain't no Johnny Walker in Pacific!
I think the mean for escorts in the game should actually be 2 or just over, and the sensors should be built around 'competent' or slightly above.
Ducimus
04-09-07, 06:40 PM
I think they should be taken out except for some wild exceptions (Bungo Pete?).
Mind reader!
In my mod i set 90% of the AI to crew rating 3 in the MIS files. A temporary measure whilst i gauge the AI and the game. Once i have everything else squared away, i intend to revist the campaign files in my own way later on.
late war escorts (which may be disproportionately deadly)
I have three words for that.
crew rating 4.
And their all over the place. I thought about taking them out, but decided not to just yet.
Geez, Elite?
I think they should be taken out except for some wild exceptions (Bungo Pete?).
Even in SHIII, I believe modders eventually decided to reserve these for extreme cases, e.g. Walker's group - and there ain't no Johnny Walker in Pacific!
I think the mean for escorts in the game should actually be 2 or just over, and the sensors should be built around 'competent' or slightly above.
Then it seems like the tried and tested solution might be the way to go again. Removing all the 4s will be easy as pie and will probably accomplish much of the 'middling' effect it seems we need.
For my own install, I actually did something like that today; in 41-42, I upped all 'dumb' escorts up a level (0 to 1, 1 to 2, even 2 to 3 in some cases), and later on - bumped down the 'uber' ones a level (4 to 3).
The skill variation should ideally be there for the purposes of adding a dynamic element, but unlike SHIII - not really to simulate some sort of 'improvements' in escort experience overtime, where AFAIK in the IJN on the whole there wasn't really much ASW improvement going on as such.
On my escort wishlist right now is a serious 'dumbing down' of their visual ability, a more sensitive but far less accurate hydrophone, and perhaps more conservative DCing practices.
Has anyone besides me thought that the huge DC barrages that the AI drops are way too much? Perhaps something to adjust, hmm?
Ducimus
04-09-07, 07:31 PM
>>On my escort wishlist right now is a serious 'dumbing down' of their visual ability
Not hard to do. I ramped it up tremendously over stock. Increase the speed and surface factor. Then look at the light and wave factors. One of these days i really need to make a post and explain all the variables as i understand them.
From stuff I've read, they liked to drop DCs, even just to try and keep a sub down with no even slight notion where their target was. It'd work, too, if the bloody convoys would keep moving instead of parking, lol.
I've been messing withthe random layers, myself, and I axed the large majority of the fleet DDs as convoy escorts (only gotta up to '43 so far in my messing around). When there is a fleet DD as an escort (usually a % to even have one), I set it to Veteran, with a few set to "elite" on some convoys (though a small % chance of them being there at all).
My attitude on Fleet DDs is that the crew should be excellent, since they largely were. Poor crew quality on escorts would be for NON-Fleet units, IMO. The nIJN was stingly with merchant convoy escorts, the notion toy'd see a bunch of them with a few merchants early in the war is just plain goofy.
>>On my escort wishlist right now is a serious 'dumbing down' of their visual ability
Not hard to do. I ramped it up tremendously over stock. Increase the speed and surface factor. Then look at the light and wave factors. One of these days i really need to make a post and explain all the variables as i understand them.
Yeah, that would be nice. It's something I've only ever really looked at in passing but my current in game situation has had me wanting to find some kind of decent 'middle ground' when it comes to visual spotting at least.
DiveMonkey
04-10-07, 09:06 AM
Not to interrupt again but I'm using "Improve AI attack ability mod"...sorry the author didn't sign his read-me and I cant recall his handle but it is a very good improvement as far as if they catch you scoping them out they will put holes in you :up:
improved ai attack and reducing the effects of thermal layer mite be a good balance.
Bilge_Rat
04-10-07, 10:09 AM
not to take anything away from the modders since you are doing great work, but players who are worried about a super AI should stick to the stock game until they have an idea of what they are looking for and what they want to change.
I am playing the game stock, except for Dize's campaign and a few graphic mods, until I get a good handle on how the AI and the game works. So far I have seen the AI range from clownishly incompetent to very efficient, but overall it seems to fall within acceptable historical parameters.
not to take anything away from the modders since you are doing great work, but players who are worried about a super AI should stick to the stock game until they have an idea of what they are looking for and what they want to change...
But there's a lot of stuff in the stock game that's unacceptable. The number and frequency of aircraft attacks, for example, are ridiculous. Players who value realism and who don't want overpowered AI should not stick with the unmodded game - I guarantee it will not give you what you want. RFB will give you a realistic experience - that's what it's designed to do. The stock game was designed to have many realistic features, but it was also designed to be profitable, so it has to compete with arcade shooters, therefore it's unlikely that it will suit the tastes of those of us who prefer full realism.
Ok a couple of observations, don't have the game yet but:
1) IJN did put a lower value on ASW so maybe early war tune down the skill but...
2) Fleet DDs had experienced crews, experienced in surface warfare with torpedoes and guns. Now, would they or would they not have ASW skilss as they were screening the IJN's most precious assets it carriers (and other capital ships)? They may not have had radar BUT they DID have great night fighting ability, selecting skilled lookouts and with good optical equipment. So visual spotting should be good.
3) Would patrol craft have been skilled or trained for night combat or not? Proably not and they would not have had the best kit early war, including high powered optics.
Bilge_Rat
04-10-07, 10:46 AM
Beery, I don't disagree with you and I certainly did not want to imply that the stock game is perfect, but the mods are still WIPs at this time. When the mods are more mature, like a NYGM or GWX, I will certainly be trying them out.
The IJN fleet units should all be highly skilled, even in the technicalities of ASW.
The lack of attention to ASW in general meant that:
1. They did not apply the skills they had in the fleet to protecting MERCHANT SHIPPING very much at all. ASW in defense of the fleet is one thing, sending a valuable offensive asset like a fleet DD to herd merchants around is another.
2. Attention to the science of ASW, and the creation of improved methods and doctrines was almost nonexistant. So they improved their capability only very slowly.
Regarding merchant shipping, there were civie merchants, merchants conscripted intot he IJ ARMY, and also into the IJ NAVY. The IJN would be more likely to escort NAVY merchants, even at the expense of a more important IJA convoy. The IJA had its own escorts, I think (armed merchants, subchasers, etc, but the skill would be low).
Note that many japanese merchant carried hydrophones later on, and the armed ones had some DCs, too. The general idea was to try and keep the subs down (so the merchies could escape) more than actually prosecuting targets properly.
tater
AntEater
04-10-07, 10:59 AM
Fleet DDs in all navies certainly trained ASW.
The japanese subs had the role of engaging enemy fleet units, and the IJN assumed the US boats having the same role.
Naturally, that means their fleet DDs had the role of protecting their own capital ships and most likely often exercised against their own I-boats before the war.
Regarding merchant hydrophones, I have read about an interesting german device, the torpedo approach warning.
That consisted of a simple hydrophone array, calibrated on the sound of a torpedo.
If a torpedo was in the water, it gave (rough) bearing and signal strengh. Maybe the IJN had something similar.
This device was installed in german subhunters and important merchants from 1943 on.
CaptainKobuk
04-10-07, 11:00 AM
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0451845/
That link is to the 2005 movie called "Yamato". I say it a couple days ago. Skipped through all the japanese personal drama just to get to and focus on the great battle scenes. The relevant point i want to make about "difficulty settings" in SH4, is the Japs at least on the Yamato had quite a few spotting scope stations all over the place. Powerful big binocular type spotting equipment. I'll bet that besides just having spotters at the top of the Battleship Yamato's very high commant tower, they had them all around the ship. No crew members were left to sit on their ass to do nothing. They were put on deck to spot rather than do recreation time. During dangerous patrols.
So i have no problems with the Japs spotting my sub on the surface. I give them an A+ skill rating on that. In Imperial Japan their sailors were very forcefully disciplined wherever it effected their ships survival.
I switched back to using FFtaste to get the greater challenge it said it had due to increasing Jap detection of submerged USA subs.
I was in a Sargo out of Manilla and up the coast a ways on my first career mission i ran into a very majectic Jap Military Fleet of 2 KONGO Battlewagons with 2 Heavy C's and 8 D's. It was night and i sneaked up underwater to within about 2500, with the front 4 tubes set to 25 feet to get at the KONGO 30+ deep underbelly. I guess my periscope was spotted by a DD that was nearby. Because suddenly the two Battleships and two Cruisers swung around as the 8 DD's surrounded me. I use the mod that increases crush depth. So i got to 375 feet in my Sargo and silently ran at 1/3.
I think it's fair what happened next. 8 DD's were able to pinpoint my location and i was sunk. Now i have the proper "fear" that is better called "challenge". Which creates a far greater satisfaction in terms of rewards when i sink a big brute like a KONGO that's surrounded by pesky DD's.
The only recommendation i'd give to MOD MAKERS is to tune out anything irrational like perhaps the Japs seeing us "before they can see us". Like before we are even in physical view to be seen.
And i think the Jap sonar ability does also could be slightly too good. But these DD's were in an elite fleet protecting two Kongo BB's. So i'll grant them that added skill.
The way to attack this Jap Task Force is to respect it's DD's. Staying out of their ping range is the only way i know of to avoid them entirely. Next time i get this perfect a chance to nail a BB i'll stay far enough out and take them from a distance of 3000 to 4000. Just enough to keep the torpedo setting on high i guess.
I'd say overall, the dificulty of Flavored to Taste could be toned down 10% to 20% and be just perfect. Giving our subs slightly more stealth when very deep would be where i'd make the adjustments. Or making the Japs less perfect with depth charges. Either way i guess.
Wherever we sense the computer is cheating reality is where i'd do the trimming.
In 'Silent Running' Jim Calvert writes of several attacks he made on board the Jack where the IJN had so little idea of where they were they dumped depth charges everywhere as soon as the first merchant was hit - and this was when they were making night time surface attacks in late '44. On several occasions they would even go off and attack phantom targets on the wrong side of the convoys.
With convoy escorts that were (Quite obviously,) equipped with radar it was a different story.
I've had escorts shooting out my Attack Peri on foggy nights from range. Radar? perhaps. Sonar? I doubt it. The ability of your average Convoy escort spotter to see everything on the darkest of nights just feels very wrong. Of course, the crew ratings play a part, and that needs to be changed as well.
So i got to 375 feet in my Sargo and silently ran at 1/3.
I think it's fair what happened next. 8 DD's were able to pinpoint my location and i was sunk.
If any real WW2 sub got down to 375 feet I reckon there's no way that a sub running silent could possibly be sunk by depth charges. It couldn't happen because even if they could hear you, which in itself is very doubtful (especially early in the war), and even if they set the DCs to the right depth, which was also very doubtful, they could not pinpoint your position to the degree required to get the DC close enough to have a chance of destroying the sub.
I don't know of any sub that was ever sunk by DCs under 100m (300ft). DCs were used very effectively on subs close to the surface, but I have strong doubts about their effectiveness at depth. The chances of getting a DC close enough to a sub that was manoeuvring at great depths was virtually nil. I just don't see how the game can possibly be realistic when it does this.
CaptainKobuk
04-10-07, 12:51 PM
The chances of getting a DC close enough to a sub that was manoeuvring at great depths was virtually nil. I just don't see how the game can possibly be realistic when it does this. Hi Beery. The game is possibly giving an "elite" Jap Destroyer crew a sort of "god-like" ability to know sub positions beyond human abilities. When i was sunk at 375 feet, i had a single Destroyer suddenly seperate from the pack of 8 that were around me and travel exactly to where i was from exactly behind my sub and drop DC's perfectly on it. The amount of skill required to do that would be dependent on 2007 technolgy i think. A modern SeaKing subhunter helicopter could do it. In December 1941, the technology was put together with vacuum tubes and loads of wires.
I'm not knocking anyone's Mod (never will do that crap) because this entire project is a fun project of discovery. But it might not be fun after awhile into a career to have super destroyers. Trial and testing will produce a perfect combination sooner or later. For each of our playing styles. I'd like to have elite destroyer crews but without the super detection ability of deep subs.
We should have that escape. So we can have room for strategy. Such as. Fire a volley from a range of 2000 on an enemy Task Force, ring their alarm bells, then sink down to close to 400 feet. An elite Destroyer should indeed force subs down and out of a firing position. While prime target zip away. That's really the best they can realistically achive in 1941. Maybe significantly more by 1945. Not sure. I'm still learning this era of naval history.
I'd like to have elite destroyer crews but without the super detection ability of deep subs...
We tried to get there for SH3 but it proved impossible. In the end we had to remove all but a few of the elites because, to cut a long story short, it was impossible to nerf them without making the rest of the AI completely useless.
Ducimus
04-10-07, 01:22 PM
Crew ratings i beleive define a minimum signal threshhold value that the AI will respond to.
In otherwords, in terms of hydrophones, your RPM's are what primarly dictate your noise level. Your noise level is a signal that has a X level of strength determined by how many RPMs your doing, and the state of the sea (IE surface wave).
Now how much signal strength is required to illicet a response varies on the Crew rating. Pulling numbers out of my ass, a crew rating of 0, might require a signal strength of like 90/100 to react, where as a crew rating of 4 might require a signal strength of 0.5/100 before it reacts. Err, if that makes any sense.
Bilge_Rat
04-10-07, 04:24 PM
one question I have is how thermal layers fit into all this?
Form what I have seen, thermal layers are set randomly at between 120 and 220 feet. That choice alone seems odd since thermal layers can appear at much deeper depth. I suspect the Devs were using Thermal layers to limit the AI from attacking deep diving subs.
It would be nice if thermal layers could appear randomly at between say 100 and 1,000 feet so a player would not know if there is one or not, although I dont know what effect that would have on the game.
one question I have is how thermal layers fit into all this?
Form what I have seen, thermal layers are set randomly at between 120 and 220 feet. That choice alone seems odd since thermal layers can appear at much deeper depth. I suspect the Devs were using Thermal layers to limit the AI from attacking deep diving subs...
Maybe. It certainly may give us additional options for toning down enemy abilities - much easier to boost the thermal layer effect, rather than tweak all the elite destroyers.
I don't know who is getting weak AI destroyers. Those things are killing me a lot - certainly a lot more than they killed subs in real life.
kakemann
04-27-07, 04:32 AM
When playing SH3 Grey Wolves Mod the game Silent Hunter 3 got a lot more exciting. You could spend hours of evasive manouvers just to get away from a single DD.
The intense and eager destroyers made the game a lot more fun to play - thats my opinion.
I've heard that the japanese destroyers were less effective. But because I played SH3 with Grey Wolves Mod for a long time, starting over again on SH4 with the original game settings got quite boring.
So thats why I made a small mod myself to put some more challenge to the game. And then a fellow subsimmer thought it would be nice to share this mod with others so more people wanting a bit of a challenge could use it. If it's not accurate I wouldn't care personally. I just wanted some challenge - like SH3 with GWX.
Talking about myself, I prefer challenge to the game. Thats why I made a mod.
But if there are a lot of subsimmers here who think the game is too challenging you can always try to make a mod and share it with other people here.
It seems like there are more than just one of you.
:sunny:
When playing SH3 Grey Wolves Mod the game Silent Hunter 3 got a lot more exciting. You could spend hours of evasive manouvers just to get away from a single DD.
But that's not realistic. This thread is about getting the game to be realistic, not challenging for the sake of a challenge. The problem with excessive challenge and excitement in a sub game is that these things defeat the whole point of the campaign game and they remove the realism from the sim.
kakemann
04-28-07, 07:39 AM
Uhhhm...
I've heard that the japanese destroyers were less effective.
But if there are a lot of subsimmers here who think the game is too challenging you can always try to make a mod and share it with other people here.
It seems like there are more than just one of you.
Of course! I know! Thats why I mentioned it in my post. If it is more historically accurate that the destroyers were less effective, then I guess someone who prefers less effective destroyer could be nice and make a mod for all of you who would like this.
Kpt. Lehmann
04-28-07, 08:10 AM
When playing SH3 Grey Wolves Mod the game Silent Hunter 3 got a lot more exciting. You could spend hours of evasive manouvers just to get away from a single DD.
But that's not realistic. This thread is about getting the game to be realistic, not challenging for the sake of a challenge. The problem with excessive challenge and excitement in a sub game is that these things defeat the whole point of the campaign game and they remove the realism from the sim.
Whatever Beery. That's your spin. You have not played GWX. You only make casual judgments in passing.
Oh I see. Well, we'll be working on it. I'm waiting until I have a good few patrols under my belt, so I know exactly how far I'd like to tweak the AI. It's probably going to be a matter of removing most of the elites like we did in RUb.
Whatever Beery. That's your spin. You have not played GWX. You only make casual judgments in passing.
I wasn't talking about GWX. But if you think the shoe fits...
If players of SH3 see their boat getting sunk more than once in every 32 patrols the game is overstating casualties, overstating the challenge and making the campaign game less fun. That's the case no matter what mod players are using (or if they're playing the unmodded game).
If players of SH4 see their boat getting sunk more than once in every 50 patrols the game is overstating casualties, overstating the challenge and making the campaign game less fun. That's the case no matter what mod players are using (or if they're playing the unmodded game).
kakemann
04-28-07, 08:22 AM
I hope you guys will find settings working for you! Good luck! :up:
Kpt. Lehmann
04-28-07, 08:29 AM
Whatever Beery. That's your spin. You have not played GWX. You only make casual judgments in passing.
I wasn't talking about GWX. But if you think the shoe fits...
If players of SH3 see their boat getting sunk more than once in every 32 patrols the game is overstating casualties, overstating the challenge and making the campaign game less fun. That's the case whatever mod players are using (or whether they're playing the unmodded game).
What we have done across the board, to promote historically plausible outcomes... you are completely unfamiliar with and unqualified to comment on.
Though I am sure that you feel you are.
We have just as many experts as anyone else... and we are just as capable of interpreting and appying credible data from sources just as reputable as yours.
How we interpret or apply the data may differ... but it remains just as relevant as anyone's take on "realism" or historical plausiblity.
The difference is that we try not to trash others efforts in the process... or shoot our mouths off as you do.
Ducimus
04-28-07, 11:28 AM
Well said.
Jimbuna
04-28-07, 12:28 PM
I hope you guys will find settings working for you! Good luck! :up:
Rest assured the final result for GWX will be acceptable to the vast majority of sub simmers :yep: After all, it is the most popular and widely played mod :rock:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/14/ddssh404xa0pc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Rest assured the final result for GWX will be acceptable to the vast majority of sub simmers :yep: After all, it is the most popular and widely played mod :rock:
It's not a mod for simmers though. It's a graphics mod for goodness sake. It started life as RUb lite - for the arcade crowd. GWX for simmers? Give me a break!
As for GWX being there for SH4 - what have you guys done for the game lately? I don't see any SH4 mods by you guys. Usually you wait until the real modders have built stuff then it gets adopted and 'enhanced'. Serious modders are working on the game now, not waiting until there's enough good stuff for the GWX folks to claim as their own.
By the way, the GWX manual needs updating - you folks forgot to credit the following contributors for the RUb part of GWX - you know, the part of the GWX mod you don't like to talk about:
9th Flotilla, Aces, Acsoft, Ailantd, Anteater, Augie64, Average Joe, Aviar, BBury, Beery, Billoute, Captain America, CCIP, Cdr Gibs, Church SUBSIM, Clive Bradbury, Devnull, Dick Dastardly, EFileTahi-A, Egan, Flakwalker, FLB sale, Fletcher_72, GouldJG, Grouchy, GunMod, Heretic, Iambecomelife, Iceberg, IrishRed, Jace11, Jaesen Jones, Jasonb885, JG400_Pips, Jiim, Jungman, Kossu, Luminousbit0, lurbz, macstu23, Mad-h, Manuel, Marhkimov, McBeck, Mcoca, Myros, Neal Stevens, Nico71, Observer, Officerpuppy, OneTinSoldier, Pascal, Pentallion, Prien, PurpleHaze, Purpulez, Redwine, Ripbud, Rubini, SeeAdler, Shan_Hackett, Sniper1, Stiebler, Sulikate, Teddy Bar, Tikigod, Timetraveller, Tomcat 84, U-1409, U29, U-4, U-538, U-999, Wazoo, and 'Music Fix Guy' (who contributed the music fix, but like Zorro, his identity remains unknown).
kakemann
04-28-07, 12:43 PM
I hope you guys will find settings working for you! Good luck! :up:
Rest assured the final result for GWX will be acceptable to the vast majority of sub simmers :yep: After all, it is the most popular and widely played mod :rock:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/14/ddssh404xa0pc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Someone is actually working on a GWX mod to SH4?
If thats true.. Hurra hurra! as we say in norwegian ;)
danlisa
04-28-07, 01:04 PM
It's not a mod for simmers though. It's a graphics mod for goodness sake. It started life as RUb lite - for the arcade crowd. GWX for simmers? Give me a break!
:hmm: and what do simmers look for in a game?
I always thought a simulation was an attempt at an accurate portrayal of real life.
Now, how can a mod which adds extra ships, extra planes, extra bases/areas of operations and provides a historically correct campaign structure aswell as a very balanced and stingently tested sensor package be considered not to be the choice of a simulation enthusiast?
Once again you are baselessly putting down someone elses work which you are unqualifed to comment on.
If you can produce anything that even comes close to the accomplishments of GWX then MAYBE you have the right challenge thier way of portraying a simulation. Until then please continue with your work and leave others to thiers.
kakemann
04-28-07, 01:07 PM
Now, how can a mod which adds extra ships, extra planes, extra bases/areas of operations and provides a historically correct campaign structure aswell as a very balanced and stingently tested sensor package be considered not to be the choice of a simulation enthusiast?
Thats one good question? :hmm:
:rotfl:
Once again you are baselessly putting down someone elses work which you are unqualifed to comment on.
It's only 'mostly' someone else's work. I'm qualified to comment on it because it started out by using RUb as its base (none of which gets credit in the GWX manual by the way) and removing realism features from it. How can a mod that removes realistic features be a mod for serious simulation enthusiasts?
RUb is the only mod for SH3 that has a deck gun that's based on actual reports of deck gun usage in battle conditions. Every other major SH3 mod has a fantasy deck gun, or one that is an exact copy of the RUb one.
As for being unqualified to comment, I make it a rule never to use mods that include other people's work and fail to credit them for it. I urge everyone to steer clear of mods that don't give proper credit where it's due. That was the case with SeaWolves and it's the case with GWX too.
Jimbuna
04-28-07, 01:18 PM
It's not a mod for simmers though. It's a graphics mod for goodness sake. It started life as RUb lite - for the arcade crowd. GWX for simmers? Give me a break!
That's your opinion....put it the legions, or as you say 'the arcade crowd' out there who use and rate it. I think you'll find theres a little more than graphics that's been changed since it's original inception.
As for GWX being there for SH4 - what have you guys done for the game lately? I don't see any SH4 mods by you guys. Usually you wait until the real modders have built stuff then it gets adopted and 'enhanced'. Serious modders are working on the game now, not waiting until there's enough good stuff for the GWX folks to claim as their own.
Which game are you referring to ?
If it's SH3 then your having a larf aren't you hehe
If it's SH4....then you won't for a while at least. What's the point of modding a new born game that's failing in almost every department and in need of numerous patches to make it acceptable for gameplay ? Read the issues and problems threads on SS....it might take you some time mind!!
Only then will it be a viable proposition for modding.
When you refer to 'serious modders' that are working on SH4 presently, I'm in no doubt you may be right....but do you include yourself in that statement ? As I recall you were seriously handicapped in the modding area not so long ago and that was partly the reason you left. There are still a lot of good folk left over at The Den and their memories might not be so forgetful.
It is definitely not the case that anybody on GWX wants to forget about flagging up and recognising those who gave of their talent in the earlier days and with that in mind I,m sure a response will be forthcoming.
In the meantime some of us are extremely busy adding yet further improvements for the next release.
Reading some of your posts on the forums often makes me wonder why in Gods name we bother!!!!!!!!! :arrgh!:
Ducimus
04-28-07, 01:21 PM
*sniff* *sniff*
You smell that?
*sniff*
Smells like... Egocentric Elitism.
Phew... stinks in here.
GAS GAS GAS! Condition black! MOPP 4 has been declared, don all protective gear!
http://www.jodyeldred.com/images/smMopp4.JPG
kakemann
04-28-07, 01:22 PM
Reading some of your posts on the forums often makes me wonder why in Gods name we bother!!!!!!!!! :arrgh!:
You bother because most of the forum members really appreciate your work!
bigboywooly
04-28-07, 01:23 PM
As for GWX being there for SH4 - what have you guys done for the game lately? I don't see any SH4 mods by you guys. Usually you wait until the real modders have built stuff then it gets adopted and 'enhanced'. Serious modders are working on the game now, not waiting until there's enough good stuff for the GWX folks to claim as their own.
Why work on SH4 when we are still working on a live mod for SH3 ?
Not a dead buried forgotten one but one in use by hundreds if not thousands of ppl - judging by D\L counters
Not everybody is interested in the PTO so we are quite happy where we are for the mo
The only reason you are at SH4 now is you bailed on SH3 long ago
When only the hard fixes were left
Not the simple ones
And you are not the only one modding SH4
Far from it
Dont hear any of the others slagging off anyone else :hmm:
Anyway back to topic
Jimbuna
04-28-07, 02:05 PM
*sniff* *sniff*
You smell that?
*sniff*
Smells like... Egocentric Elitism.
Phew... stinks in here.
GAS GAS GAS! Condition black! MOPP 4 has been declared, don all protective gear!
Good point....it does stink a bit :yep:
I wish I hadn't clicked on this thread. :nope:
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/3876/sick3qx.gif
mr chris
04-28-07, 03:34 PM
Well Barry where do we start.
Originally Posted by Beery
As for GWX being there for SH4 - what have you guys done for the game lately?
Time my friend all in good time. Do you ever read what the good kpt posts.
GWX is not even finshed yet.
Oh and from what ive seen either is SH4.
Originally Posted by Beery
Usually you wait until the real modders have built stuff then it gets adopted and 'enhanced'. Serious modders are working on the game now, not waiting until there's enough good stuff for the GWX folks to claim as their own.
The real modders?
Who might they be pray tell?
The ones that droped modding SH3 well over a year ago claiming that what GWX has gone on to give to the Sub Simmer was not possible?
The ones that are now doing all the minor tweaks and mods for SH4 and will run away as soon as it gets to difficult?
If Rub was so great and was the Ultimate mod for SH3.
Where was the chance to play in other Theathers of operations such as the Black sea and Indian ocean that you get in GWX amongst lots of other stuff.
Funny i never saw that option in Rub.
As for your claim that GWX claims others works as there own now that is a serious claim indeed where is your hardcore prove that Rub files or anyone else work for that matter is used in GWX without the proper crediting being given if known?
Come on Barry put up or Shut up.
Originally Posted by Beery
Quote:
It's not a mod for simmers though. It's a graphics mod for goodness sake. It started life as RUb lite - for the arcade crowd. GWX for simmers? Give me a break!
Its not a mod for simmers?
Why is it not?
Who are you to judge others?
LOL your are a funny guy Barry.
I will just ask you one question?
Do you like Kit kats?;)
Fisticuffs please! http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/images/smilies/boxing.gif
Im going to be nosey and get involved in something I shouldn't...
lol lets not start accussing who of doing what, thats just counter productive. We (er modders) are all modding the same game, using the same tools, looking for similar results so the fact that some of the aspects of the two mods are the same isn't that suprising. Is it really that far fetched to reason that some similarities are just that and have no mischievous means behind them.
As far as the realism vs gameplay aspect of the AI issue I think the truth lies somewhere between what Beery is trying to say and GWX's pov. 50 Patrols without your sub being sunk Beery? How fun would that be? Then again it all depends on the capn' and how he plays. Ive been sunk multiple times in one patrol before due to dmg and wanting to see if I could survive. It all really depends on how you play, and when you let yourself "Die".
AI behavior should have some believablity and act as humans who want to kill you. I just want them to put some effort into trying to locate and kill Me. After you Torpedo a boat in an AI convoy I would expect them to make some sort of defensive action. Zig Zag, change speeds, or send out a destroyer to look for you I just want them to do SOMETHING. It is just dumb when I can surface next to a destroyer, dive and still manage to get away without much more than a scratch.
Its all personal preference, which is why it is nice to have a choice.
I have issues with what each of the "supermodders" have said, and agree with points each of them have brought up...have used all of their stuff too and respect them. I won't go farther lest my words be used as ammo just stating my view. Although I exclusively GWX now, and tried SH4 and well can't run it (GWX is heavy enough for my system :cry:) so haven't tried some of the exciting stuff going on there...appreciated the other's work in the past.
Beery, you need a shoulder to cry against? :roll:
Kpt. Lehmann
04-28-07, 06:05 PM
Apologies to all who may feel caught in the middle.
Berry cannot even get his own facts straight.
Earlier this month the following was posted by Beery in the Ubisoft Silent Hunter forums, I chose to ignore it since I had better things to do than dea with vitriolic delusional jealousy.
It begins here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/2931092055?r=3571056055#3571056055
Posted by Beeryus aka "Beery" at Subsim.com
Posted Fri April 13 2007 14:37
Work was stopped on RUb because with version 2.0 it was complete. It still works with the latest version of SH3. Nothing more was needed. Other mods added chrome, but RUb was the best and still is. Besides, GWX wasn't even a realistic mod - it was aimed at arcade fans for goodness sake.
Anyway, why is it, if GWX was so great, that the folks behind it aren't producing the big mod for SH4 now? I dunno, it seems strange that the same folks who were behind RUb are the ones making all the big steps in modding SH4. Where are these other genius modders when we need them? Probably waiting for me and my crew to finish RFB so they can jump in and start adding their stuff to it and proclaiming it the second coming. Well my crew came first and most of what GWX is was brought to it by the names that can be found in the RUb readme file, using the mods that were in RUb before they appeared anywhere else.
The following is only the tip of the iceberg where GW/GWX responses are concerned.
1. To my knowledge there never was a RUb 2.0 released. Beery started it, but then suffered burnout. RUb 1.45 is the last release I know of and is the latest available at www.beerymod.com (http://www.beerymod.com) . So, if RUb 2.0 was complete as Beery states, what was RUb 1.45, the last actual (and current) released version? Obviously not complete.
2. Beery says "I mean all the other major mods that came later were based on the huge amount of work that was done for RUb." then says "Compared to RUb it's [GWX] arcade.". So how can his later statement "except for the major parts of GWX that are actually RUb in disguise" be true? I'm confused. I mean, if RUb is hardcore, as he states, and GWX is arcade, as he states, how can GWX be "RUb in disguise", as he states?!?! Hardcore is opposite to arcade, is it not? Must
have been a lot of "chrome" or "lipstick" added...
3. Re his "EVERY major mod back then used the flotilla mod that I developed", our (GWX) flotilla files have been extensively reworked to affect the addition of three flotillas not represented in RUb, and five new player U-boat ports. Any similarity can be viewed as coincidental. You cannot copyright a historical date. Concerning history vs. SH3 code... ours were made to match history as close as possible within the constraints of the system.
4. RUb... is a collection of mods which in no small way draws from other community members work. These, mods by community members are easily extracted. Futhermore, it is a simple matter for anyone to contact and obtain permissions for each. Indeed, obtaining permission has always been our policy. Concerning any "no-responses" for items created by community members who are no longer active... our policy has been to include the work and credit with the most current information our crew can find.
5. Looking at the list of names that Beery posted constituting previous "RUb team members"... Indeed many of those ppl were credited... and are still credited within the currently available GWX manual. "Ail or "AlainT" was a graphics and particles artist/modder listed as part of the RUB team... (I thought RUb didn't have any artsy "fluff"... So you disrespect a member of your own team?)
6. Hardcore, non fluff only??? Then why include the practice crashdive sequence from "Das Boot" in the sound files for RUb?
7. Concerning your baiting comments regarding where we are in relation to SH4... they of no consequence. Being first does not make a thing "right"... It simply makes a thing "first." BFD. Many of the modding methods needed to alter SH3 will also function for many of the file types found in SH4.
8. Concerning your comments comparing us to X1... IMHO, I feel that GWX and all the contributions within... was this community's best return fire at X1 for doing what they did.
9. Read the GWX Manual and credits again. Your response concerning them was half-baked.
I haven't even gotten warmed up yet. So you spent six months modding SH3. Big farking deal. We've spent two years doing the same.
HELL WILL FREEZE OVER BEFORE "BEERY" or "RUb" APPEARS IN THE GWX CREDITS LISTING.
The only credit you can claim concerning GW/GWX... is creating an environment (when you were the SH3 mods forum moderator) that was so insufferable due to your narrow-mindedness and attitude problem... that it caused the GW/GWX Dev team to form.
I love this man ^^^ :yep:
And @ Beery re. GWX guys not modding for SH4.
Unfortunately for the SH4 crowd the committed modders involved in GWX do not simply jump ship when the next new thing comes along. No, they stick it out, they put more hours in, they keep up trying to improve their product, and they continue to innovate.
You Beery stopped working on SH3 a long time ago. You have not contributed to this game for some time yet other modders have continued to find ways of adding to this game, and in more than just graphical ways. Rubini's recent crew mod is a demonstration of how one modder has taken it upon himself to dig deep and try and do something new and add to the realism of the game. That alone is proof that there is more juice left in this fruit.
Go and play with your new toy, get credit for being the first one in. But I'm sure that when all is said and done and you're loading up SH5, nobody in the SH4 forums will say "Thank God Beery was there first".
Ducimus
04-28-07, 06:22 PM
By berry:
Anyway, why is it, if GWX was so great, that the folks behind it aren't producing the big mod for SH4 now? I dunno, it seems strange that the same folks who were behind RUb are the ones making all the big steps in modding SH4. Where are these other genius modders when we need them? Probably waiting for me and my crew to finish RFB so they can jump in and start adding their stuff to it and proclaiming it the second coming.
You know, from time to time i may have my differences with KL or DTB, but some things i will back them up on, 100% of the way. The above quote is a bunch of horse****. From my breif stint with working with the GWX crew, i can say first hand, that they havent, nor do they need to wait for berry, for ANYTHING.
Anyway, im going to scamper off now and enjoy the show. :88)
By berry:
Anyway, why is it, if GWX was so great, that the folks behind it aren't producing the big mod for SH4 now? I dunno, it seems strange that the same folks who were behind RUb are the ones making all the big steps in modding SH4. Where are these other genius modders when we need them? Probably waiting for me and my crew to finish RFB so they can jump in and start adding their stuff to it and proclaiming it the second coming.
You know, from time to time i may have my differences with KL or DTB, but some things i will back them up on, 100% of the way. The above quote is a bunch of horse****. From my breif stint with working with the GWX crew, i can say first hand, that they havent, nor do they need to wait for berry, for ANYTHING.
Anyway, im going to scamper off now and enjoy the show. :88)
*Passes the popcorn* ;)
MOMMY DADDY STOP FIGHTING, CAN'T YOU SEE YOU'RE TEARING APART OUR FAMILY :cry:
danlisa
04-28-07, 06:55 PM
MOMMY DADDY STOP FIGHTING, CAN'T YOU SEE YOU'RE TEARING APART OUR FAMILY :cry:
I'm sure everyone is sorry that this is happening BUT a situation like this will not & cannot go unanswered. A direct attack has been launched and a full salvo has been returned.
Many people who are new to Subsim may not know the blood, sweat & tears that has been shed over GW/GWX over the last 2 years and as such the Devs have every right to respond to the unproven accusations against their hard work.
Please recognize that this is not only an attack on a MOD but an attack on the dedicated people who built it. I fully agree & will firmly stand beside any course of action deemed necessary over this matter.
As for family, certain people are like the preverbal in-laws, you never want to see or hear from them.;)
Ah, crap. It seems Beery has been sipping alot of beer. He might be talented - so was the guy who invented the plague (he was not credited either)- but it seems Beery is more interested in modding the mood in the forums than the games themselves.
GWX-bashing is probably the hardest thing to pull off, so good luck. (You`ll need it)
Over & out.:down:
Madox58
04-28-07, 08:44 PM
Geez! Mr. Beery! You are SO great!
Where did I go wrong?
Ummm, When most of us new guys started out WERE YOU there?
Uhhh, NO!
When we asked for advise and help..........
No Beery help.
And WTF is this SO called RubMe 2.0?????????
Afraid some of us MIGHT look close at your so called "work"?
Give me Hex examples or shut the flick up!
And for Crickys Sake!
You can't code your web pages to
display on multipule screen resolutions???????
Do De Do!
Good Lord, We ain't got time to deal with
"The Wizard of Oz" (Smoke and Mirrors)
Gentlemen!!!!
U-Bones
04-28-07, 10:00 PM
The only credit you can claim concerning GW/GWX... is creating an environment (when you were the SH3 mods forum moderator) that was so insufferable due to your narrow-mindedness and attitude problem... that it caused the GW/GWX Dev team to form.
Absolutely Bingo. I left the subsim community for the better part of a year then because I could not stand his egotistical elitism, as Ducimus so aptly put it. This was as a lurker !
I still can't stand the attitude, but now I'm inclined to say so (and have) instead of leaving.
But that's not realistic. This thread is about getting the game to be realistic, not challenging for the sake of a challenge. The problem with excessive challenge and excitement in a sub game is that these things defeat the whole point of the campaign game and they remove the realism from the sim.
Let's put things on perspective, the individual posting about realism is also doing this...
I'm considering making a comedy mod. This would be fantasy in nature, with humorous notes such as the BernardNote mod and with undeveloped features such as the hula girls, mermaids and The Flying Dutchman making appearances. This mod won't be immediately apparent, but comic touches will appear in the game from time to time as a campaign is played.
What I'd like is the following to start with:
The Flying Dutchman sailing throughout the pacific from his historical base in Java.
Hula girls dancing in port and on islands.
Mermaid encounters near (or on) small islands.
The captain's notepad in every boat featuring the captain's complaints about the crew.
A map detailing all the locations where these things can be seen.
I've nothing more to say...
Ref
Let's put things on perspective, the individual posting about realism is also doing this...I've nothing more to say...
Yeah, I also read sci-fi, watch Monty Python and listen to Punk Rock. What's your point? Are you really saying that two completely different mods made by one person have to have the same focus if either is to be taken seriously? Give me a break.
On the issue of accusations, all I'm demanding is that the 76 modders that built RUb be included in the list of contributors for GWX - since RUb was the basis for GWX I don't think it's too much to ask. It should have been done when work first started on GW, and I shouldn't have to demand that they be given their due.
9th Flotilla, Aces, Acsoft, Ailantd, Anteater, Augie64, Average Joe, Aviar, BBury, Beery, Billoute, Captain America, CCIP, Cdr Gibs, Church SUBSIM, Clive Bradbury, Devnull, Dick Dastardly, EFileTahi-A, Egan, Flakwalker, FLB sale, Fletcher_72, GouldJG, Grouchy, GunMod, Heretic, Iambecomelife, Iceberg, IrishRed, Jace11, Jaesen Jones, Jasonb885, JG400_Pips, Jiim, Jungman, Kossu, Luminousbit0, lurbz, macstu23, Mad-h, Manuel, Marhkimov, McBeck, Mcoca, Myros, Neal Stevens, Nico71, Observer, Officerpuppy, OneTinSoldier, Pascal, Pentallion, Prien, PurpleHaze, Purpulez, Redwine, Ripbud, Rubini, SeeAdler, Shan_Hackett, Sniper1, Stiebler, Sulikate, Teddy Bar, Tikigod, Timetraveller, Tomcat 84, U-1409, U29, U-4, U-538, U-999, Wazoo, and 'Music Fix Guy'.
All these people had a part in GWX but they are not listed as contributors because the folks behind GWX are (apparently) ashamed that their mod was based on RUb. It's not about pitting one mod against another. It's about doing the decent thing and recognising work that went into a mod. The people above trusted me to make sure they got credit for their work, and I was foolish enough to let Kpt. Lehmann use RUb and let him get away without giving proper credit to my guys for 18 months. Put right what's wrong with GWX and all can be forgotten, but I won't simply let this drop because those 76 guys were my team and they deserve better than to have their work adopted without a single credit being given for it.
If the tables were turned and I was the one building a mod on top of GWX without giving any credit to the GWX team, that would be wrong and people would be justified in denouncing me for it. So why do some folks act as if it's different when it's the other way around? Giving proper credit is the right thing to do. Not only is it the right thing, but it's also the smart thing. Modders won't trust a major mod-maker for very long who uses mods without giving proper credit for them. You can't fool all the people all the time and people will eventually figure things out.
mr chris
04-29-07, 02:37 AM
Where is the proof that GWX is using others mods from Rub that dont have the credit for it in the GWX manual?
You can keep on your wild acusations all day long but everyone here is asking for hardcore proof to back up your claims.
It's about doing the decent thing Beery, you wouldn't know the decent thing to do if it had blond hair and offered you fellatio, which is what you demand from the community.
GWX will never smoke the RUB meat pipe.
EDIT. btw Beery. Your accusations about GWX not recognizing modders who's work was used are a sign of how sloppy you are.
Reading through your list and comparing it to sections of the GWX manual I found in a glance the following people from your list credited.
Marhkimov, Pascal, Tikigod, Timetraveller, FLB sale, Rubini, Heretic, IrishRed, Sniper1, Redwine.
And I haven't even looked that hard. Did you even read the documentation before making your wild accusations?
melnibonian
04-29-07, 04:19 AM
On the issue of accusations, all I'm demanding is that the 76 modders that built RUb be included in the list of contributors for GWX - since RUb was the basis for GWX I don't think it's too much to ask. It should have been done when work first started on GW, and I shouldn't have to demand that they be given their due.
9th Flotilla, Aces, Acsoft, Ailantd, Anteater, Augie64, Average Joe, Aviar, BBury, Beery, Billoute, Captain America, CCIP, Cdr Gibs, Church SUBSIM, Clive Bradbury, Devnull, Dick Dastardly, EFileTahi-A, Egan, Flakwalker, FLB sale, Fletcher_72, GouldJG, Grouchy, GunMod, Heretic, Iambecomelife, Iceberg, IrishRed, Jace11, Jaesen Jones, Jasonb885, JG400_Pips, Jiim, Jungman, Kossu, Luminousbit0, lurbz, macstu23, Mad-h, Manuel, Marhkimov, McBeck, Mcoca, Myros, Neal Stevens, Nico71, Observer, Officerpuppy, OneTinSoldier, Pascal, Pentallion, Prien, PurpleHaze, Purpulez, Redwine, Ripbud, Rubini, SeeAdler, Shan_Hackett, Sniper1, Stiebler, Sulikate, Teddy Bar, Tikigod, Timetraveller, Tomcat 84, U-1409, U29, U-4, U-538, U-999, Wazoo, and 'Music Fix Guy'.
All these people had a part in GWX but they are not listed as contributors because the folks behind GWX are (apparently) ashamed that their mod was based on RUb. It's not about pitting one mod against another.
You know it's really strange, because all this time I did not see ANYONE of the people you mention complaining and asking to be put in the "list of contributors" (after all as P_Funk said some already are.) Now what is this telling us? Well it tells us that either your claims are rubbish or that you all created a "united front". Now since you have people like Jaesen Jones, Gibs, Rubini, Neal Stevens, Iambecomelife, Marhkimov and others that are either MEMBERS of the GWX Team or Work with them as "Free Agents" (in various ways) something doesn't add up.
I don't particularly like to jump into conclusions but the evidence is so overwhelming, that I will go with the "Rubbish Option" I'm affraid.
Jimbuna
04-29-07, 05:01 AM
Beery Quote:
It should have been done when work first started on GW, and I shouldn't have to demand that they be given their due.
Kpt.Lehmann Quote:
HELL WILL FREEZE OVER BEFORE "BEERY" or "RUb" APPEARS IN THE GWX CREDITS LISTING.
You have your answer....and your two minutes of glory.
Kpt. tubes one through four loaded and set :arrgh!:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/14/ddssh404xa0pc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Jimbuna, that little gif is quite offensive...this is not a war between SHIII and SHIV players but among some of the supermodders and is uncalled for IMO. :shifty:
CaptainCox
04-29-07, 06:52 AM
Just took a look in this thread as it keeps pooping up...Its not really heading the way the title says is it. Shame really...grown men acting like this. Thought this was all about team work and stuff...guess I was wrong. Men will be men...but we are really monkeys...think this proves it.
Just took a look in this thread as it keeps pooping up...Its not really heading the way the title says is it. Shame really...grown men acting like this. Thought this was all about team work and stuff...guess I was wrong. Men will be men...but we are really monkeys...think this proves it.
Over 2 years is alot of time to sacrifice your free time, for making a big mod for the community to keep SHIII alive. Then someone comes in and accuses them of just sitting there with a thumb up their asses for 2 years and just taking the work of others and saying it's theirs. That's the only thing I can find from this thread that is childish... then again... there's only one child writing to this thread... :shifty:
Jimbuna, that little gif is quite offensive...this is not a war between SHIII and SHIV players but among some of the supermodders and is uncalled for IMO. :shifty:
Now, how is it offensive? Maybe it just shows that the sig wearer plays SHIII & SHIV? :88)
Kpt. Lehmann
04-29-07, 08:43 AM
ROFLMAO,
Beery, you appear to be confusing GW/GWX with IUB/Improved U-boat.
Neither GW nor GWX spent any portion of its existence as a "RUb Light." Improved U-boat did that.
You need to put up or shut up.
Describe in detail TODAY... what exactly you think GWX has taken from RUb that YOU PERSONALLY modded.
Any generalized statements or sweeping gestures are not acceptable.
Details NOW or close your mouth.
You apparently have not read our credits or the manual as you claim. I believe GWX has given a more thorough recognition of contributors than any other mod... and if it is proven that anyone from your list has been overlooked somehow and the complaint is validated... I will be MORE than happy to correct the manual.
IE: TimeTraveller is mentioned as well in our credits though he didn't mod a single file personally. However, his minitweaker has saved us a great many hours.
CaptainCox
04-29-07, 08:55 AM
Just took a look in this thread as it keeps pooping up...Its not really heading the way the title says is it. Shame really...grown men acting like this. Thought this was all about team work and stuff...guess I was wrong. Men will be men...but we are really monkeys...think this proves it.
Over 2 years is alot of time to sacrifice your free time, for making a big mod for the community to keep SHIII alive. Then someone comes in and accuses them of just sitting there with a thumb up their asses for 2 years and just taking the work of others and saying it's theirs. That's the only thing I can find from this thread that is childish... then again... there's only one child writing to this thread... :shifty:
I know the time involved doing this stuff believe me!. I am more commenting on the tone. Sure there seem to be...lets call it a misunderstanding :88). I think threads like this will only end up as a "you are a bigger ass because you did blah blah" sort of thing. Mods will close it and then what? If there is a conflict of interest why not sort it out on the side.
Kpt. Lehmann
04-29-07, 09:10 AM
Just took a look in this thread as it keeps pooping up...Its not really heading the way the title says is it. Shame really...grown men acting like this. Thought this was all about team work and stuff...guess I was wrong. Men will be men...but we are really monkeys...think this proves it.
Over 2 years is alot of time to sacrifice your free time, for making a big mod for the community to keep SHIII alive. Then someone comes in and accuses them of just sitting there with a thumb up their asses for 2 years and just taking the work of others and saying it's theirs. That's the only thing I can find from this thread that is childish... then again... there's only one child writing to this thread... :shifty:
I know the time involved doing this stuff believe me!. I am more commenting on the tone. Sure there seem to be...lets call it a misunderstanding :88). I think threads like this will only end up as a "you are a bigger ass because you did blah blah" sort of thing. Mods will close it and then what? If there is a conflict of interest why not sort it out on the side.
We are sorting it out in public... because Beery shot his mouth off in public... disrespecting every member of the GWX dev team and "all the other mod packages" as well. We are beyond dealing with this in private.
This is also a matter of modding ethics that the community should really have addressed ages ago to prevent exactly this sort of thing. It needs to be aired and resolved in public.
You can't just start a gunfight and just change your mind because your opponent decides to shoot back.
Jimbuna
04-29-07, 09:32 AM
Jimbuna, that little gif is quite offensive...this is not a war between SHIII and SHIV players but among some of the supermodders and is uncalled for IMO. :shifty:
In what way is it offensive ?
FYI I play both SH3 and Sh4 :yep:
My obvious preference right this moment in time is SH3, but that is helped by the fact that SH4 is not yet 'playable'
I cannot for the life of me understand how you can perceive it as being offensive :hmm:
As for the wars between SH3 and SH4 players that you refer to, I prefer not to differentiate between SH3 and SH4 but would rather class all of us as 'sub simmers' ....again, I am unaware of such a position. :nope:
Check out the numerous threads I post helping as many people out as possible with regard to SH3 and GWX....hopefully one day I will be able to do likewise for those who play SH4.
The real issue at stake here is who should be award the appropriate accreditation for work that they have rightful ownership to :arrgh!:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/14/ddssh404xa0pc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Ducimus
04-29-07, 12:06 PM
Jimbuna, that little gif is quite offensive...this is not a war between SHIII and SHIV players but among some of the supermodders and is uncalled for IMO. :shifty:
In what way is it offensive ?
FYI I play both SH3 and Sh4 :yep:
My obvious preference right this moment in time is SH3, but that is helped by the fact that SH4 is not yet 'playable'
I cannot for the life of me understand how you can perceive it as being offensive :hmm:
I could be wrong, but generally speaking gamers tend to become factionalized over their game. People tend to root for their game, like their rooting for the home team at a compedative football game or something. So it can be perceived as "we're number 1, and you guys suck!".
Speaking of rooting for the home team. Im sitting here with a big bowl of popcorn, waiting for something to set me off, but as it is, the home teams got it covered pretty well.
http://www.homelyscientist.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/popcorn.jpg
Tigrone
04-29-07, 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by Beery
I'm considering making a comedy mod. This would be fantasy in nature, with humorous notes such as the BernardNote mod and with undeveloped features such as the hula girls, mermaids and The Flying Dutchman making appearances. This mod won't be immediately apparent, but comic touches will appear in the game from time to time as a campaign is played. What I'd like is the following to start with:
The Flying Dutchman sailing throughout the pacific from his historical base in Java.
Hula girls dancing in port and on islands.
Mermaid encounters near (or on) small islands.
The captain's notepad in every boat featuring the captain's complaints about the crew.
A map detailing all the locations where these things can be seen.
-------------------------------------------
That I would enjoy seeing. It would be fun. Making something harder, just for the sake of it being harder, is not fun nor is it realistic: "Please don't make the AI too difficult.":arrgh!:
Sorry Jimbuna, spent the afternoon in the park drinking beer with friends of mine so feel better...this morning I saw the wheel come and knock down SHIV to leave SHIII...in reverse order and having in mind some (nasty and untrue comments as to why some modderes are still with ShIII) took it as a dig against SHIV players. FWIW, I can't even play SHIV on my rig, bought it though "to support the devs." Heck, GWX is a bit of a strain but I still love it like I will love SHIV when I upgrade and the modders do their magic...sorry for my kneejerk reaction. :damn:
Jimbuna
04-29-07, 03:02 PM
Sorry Jimbuna, spent the afternoon in the park drinking beer with friends of mine so feel better...this morning I saw the wheel come and knock down SHIV to leave SHIII...in reverse order and having in mind some (nasty and untrue comments as to why some modderes are still with ShIII) took it as a dig against SHIV players. FWIW, I can't even play SHIV on my rig, bought it though "to support the devs." Heck, GWX is a bit of a strain but I still love it like I will love SHIV when I upgrade and the modders do their magic...sorry for my kneejerk reaction. :damn:
Hey....no prob joea....misunderstandings around individual interpretations often occur, especially with written posts :yep: Far better to comunicate further and seek clarity. Have a beer on me :()1: Unless of course you've already had your fill :lol: :up:
Salute
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/14/ddssh404xa0pc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Squirrel
04-29-07, 10:21 PM
Kpt. Lehmann (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=220755) (We are sorting it out in public... because Beery shot his mouth off in public... disrespecting every member of the GWX dev team and "all the other mod packages" as well. We are beyond dealing with this in private.
This is also a matter of modding ethics that the community should really have addressed ages ago to prevent exactly this sort of thing. It needs to be aired and resolved in public.
You can't just start a gunfight and just change your mind because your opponent decides to shoot back.)[/quote]
I have had SH 1,2 & 3 and have followed this site and have never had to post here but the Gigantic egotism of Kpt. Lehmann (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=220755) & his stooges have prompted me to register for this post.
Well, he (Beery) should have shot off his mouth because the GWX mod is one of the most unrealistic mods produced in SH III. :yep: DD's having the Hedgehogs in 1939, super detection and just an unplayable Mod unless you cheat, which I suppose most, if not all of the GW devotees do. Most of the mods that you and you're supposed super dev team put into GW & GWX were ripoffs from other modders.:up: They who provided the spark & mostly the gist of your Grey (Unrealistic) Wolves mod. It's always true that the one's that have something to hide are the one's who protest the loudest.:up: I for one would never even consider to use one of your mods ever for SH IV, much less for SH 3 since it is usually made unrealistic and never could have happened in the real war.
U-Bones
04-29-07, 10:32 PM
Well, he should have shot off his mouth because the GWX mod is unrealistic and really sucks. :yep: Most of the mods that you and the super dev team put into GWX was rip offs from other modders.:up: Who provided the spark & mostly the gist of your Grey (Unrealistic) Wolves mod. It's always true that the one's that have something to hide are the one's who protest the loudest.:up: I for one would never even consider to use one of your crappy mods ever for SH IV, much less for SH 3.
Then don't. Simple. Effective.
I'm so happy you joined and contributed your first post for that gem. Well, first post with this name anyway. Impressive !
Squirrel
04-29-07, 10:43 PM
Well, he should have shot off his mouth because the GWX mod is unrealistic and really sucks. :yep: Most of the mods that you and the super dev team put into GWX was rip offs from other modders.:up: Who provided the spark & mostly the gist of your Grey (Unrealistic) Wolves mod. It's always true that the one's that have something to hide are the one's who protest the loudest.:up: I for one would never even consider to use one of your crappy mods ever for SH IV, much less for SH 3.
Then don't. Simple. Effective.
I'm so happy you joined and contributed your first post for that gem. Well, first post with this name anyway. Impressive !
You're very welcome. I only write the news that fits the topic.
melnibonian
04-30-07, 12:38 AM
I for one would never even consider to use one of your mods ever for SH IV, much less for SH 3 since it is usually made unrealistic and never could have happened in the real war.
GWX as every other Mod is FREE and each user has a choice to use it or not. If you or anyone else does not like it you are more than welcome not to use it. I'm totally sure that any Development Team of any Mod is more than happy to listen to criticism, and experience shows that Modders do make changes to their mods to suit the wishes of the community. What GWX and every other mod Dev Team does not allow is lies and non-constructive criticism.
Having said that I hope you do find the mod you like and you enjoy your game.
danlisa
04-30-07, 02:50 AM
@ Squirrel
Subserpent, is that you.:hmm: When did they let you out?:rotfl:
@ Squirrel
Subserpent, is that you.:hmm: When did they let you out?:rotfl:
ROFLMAO! :rotfl:
I for one would never even consider to use one of your mods ever for SH IV, much less for SH 3 since it is usually made unrealistic and never could have happened in the real war.
GWX as every other Mod is FREE and each user has a choice to use it or not. If you or anyone else does not like it you are more than welcome not to use it. I'm totally sure that any Development Team of any Mod is more than happy to listen to criticism, and experience shows that Modders do make changes to their mods to suit the wishes of the community. What GWX and every other mod Dev Team does not allow is lies and non-constructive criticism.
Having said that I hope you do find the mod you like and you enjoy your game.
The man (Squirrel) wished to tell, that the forum actually became a forum of one mod (GWX)!???
:rotfl:
It's always true that the one's that have something to hide are the one's who protest the loudest.:up: Says the man yelling his opinion loud and clear!:rotfl:
That kind of argument is so pathetic. You don't even have the intellectual capacity to recognize the duality of your own statement. You can't say something much louder than to register for the first time just to shoot your noob mouth off.
I can scarcely hear your words since your lips are so tightly pressed to Beery's stern.
But I'll repeat to you the same thing that Kpt. said to Beery:
Prove your statements if you wish to libel the work of the GWX team. Already the argument about "stolen" mod work has been quashed. Find me one modder, Beery aside, that is angry at GWX for stealing their work.
And if you would never consider using a GWX mod for SH3 then how can you say its unrealistic? Somebody here is a stooge and he happens to be a rodent, not a wolf.
I think its a bit low of Beery to have his little brother register to subsim just to write that.
mr chris
04-30-07, 05:48 AM
Hey look here is Beerys fan club leader what a guy.
Now back to UBI with you SubSerpent.
Jimbuna
04-30-07, 12:49 PM
Torpedoes running hot, straight and true :arrgh!:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/14/ddssh404xa0pc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Ducimus
04-30-07, 04:09 PM
As opposed to someone else torpedo which seems to have run circular. :rotfl:
This is like Dejavu for me....:yep:
Berry mate, When we talk we should know what we are talking about brother...
It looks to me like you're one more time trying to balance the Community into
your side and along the road you are saying stuff and talking about stuff that
you really don't know about it...
I'm rather confused with your atitude, as when someone makes rong testimonials
about GW, or GWX, like you're doing again, anyway without offend you in whatever, I'm sorry to info you that realy, RealU/boat is as real as the stock SHIII
wothout the patchs, as for that I even prefer playing NYGM that in fact is as far as for me real Modding than play your Mod that realy I don't and never saw the diference betwin it and Stock SHIII...
If you call eye candy to GWX or GW, what should we call or better, what should the community call to your Mod, a Rubber Duck ?:o
But I understand your move brother, as I egknowlidge your touch when you start a argument like this, in fact thats maybe the only realy good thing you look good on it, throuing the discution and than back up from the fire you started to watch your work...
Nice move but sorry to info that its to late to discredite what is allready proved as The Best of the best around SHIII Community...
Too late mate...:yep:
Kpt. Lehmann
04-30-07, 06:06 PM
ROFLMAO,
Beery, you appear to be confusing GW/GWX with IUB/Improved U-boat.
Neither GW nor GWX spent any portion of its existence as a "RUb Light." Improved U-boat did that.
You need to put up or shut up.
Describe in detail TODAY... what exactly you think GWX has taken from RUb that YOU PERSONALLY modded.
Any generalized statements or sweeping gestures are not acceptable.
Details NOW or close your mouth.
You apparently have not read our credits or the manual as you claim. I believe GWX has given a more thorough recognition of contributors than any other mod... and if it is proven that anyone from your list has been overlooked somehow and the complaint is validated... I will be MORE than happy to correct the manual.
IE: TimeTraveller is mentioned as well in our credits though he didn't mod a single file personally. However, his minitweaker has saved us a great many hours.
There has yet to be ANY specific element correctly or accurately addressed here concerning either credits or mod related issus in GWX posted here.
(squirrel's post appears to be referring to some other mod... and not GWX as he states. Furthermore, since you must be registered to view threads and posts at the Subsim mods workshop forums... and as he states that his post here... is his first post... Ummm how could he be aware of it??? ESP?? )
Beery, are you unable to be specific??? Our files and documentation are a matter of public record. You have the freedom to examine them at will.
CaptainHaplo
04-30-07, 07:08 PM
Ok..... I read thru about 4 pages of gunk..... if you all wanna get into a pissing contest over what mod is better - or who made what - go ahead. But kindly make a new thread eh? I appreciate the work of all modders that release well tested packages - that goes for Beery - as well as the GWX mod team. I thank you all - now lets move forward shall we?
I would like to post back to the original subject - AI. It needs work. In the 1.20 or RFB I posted my thoughts - and I will in short summarize - 2 for early war with the occasional 3 - mid war - 2 and 3 balance - late war mostly 3's with a 4 thrown in on occassion.
Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo
Onkel Neal
04-30-07, 09:29 PM
Ok, we've seen this before, you guys should take this offline and hash it out.
Neal
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