[TEC] Sub Damage and Flooding

[gouldjg]

Hi Guys

I am working away in Scotland at the moment but from my one day playing the game, it appears peiople may want to tweak some sub damage values as they are sinking like a stone.

Here is what I wrote to someone else regarding the quick fix cheat options whilst we suss it all out properly.

It looks like they have added the actual repair code in one of the files. It is finding this formular that is the key. I am currently working in Scotland and am not back home till the weekend of which I will be testing zones.cfg and searching with a hex editor to see what is new regarding crew efficiencies.

If i am not mistaken from the one day I got to play the game, it appears that flooding is no longer individiaully controlled as per damage repair team but more, the crew in that compartment which is flooding.

As a quick fix measure and until we start to suss it out properly, I would up the hitpoints on certain equipment and reduce the floatability factors of the sub compartments in the zones cfg. This should stop the sub sinking like a stone and give persons a better chance at sussing the thing out without dying too quickly.

I did some test but as soon as damaged, I was history before I could suss things out.

I think sub compartment settings in zones cfg can give a quick cheat relief whilst people test the flooding and damage without dying too quickly.

Hope this helps

At a later date, I think Ndrifter will start to look at crew efficiency and if I find anything that may be of use to him, I will let him know.

P.s. also look at flooding speeds in the compartment zones.cfg as this can have significant effects regarding how fast the sub sinks.

[Redwine]

Hi Guys

I am working away in Scotland at the moment but from my one day playing the game, it appears peiople may want to tweak some sub damage values as they are sinking like a stone.

Here is what I wrote to someone else regarding the quick fix cheat options whilst we suss it all out properly.

It looks like they have added the actual repair code in one of the files. It is finding this formular that is the key. I am currently working in Scotland and am not back home till the weekend of which I will be testing zones.cfg and searching with a hex editor to see what is new regarding crew efficiencies.

If i am not mistaken from the one day I got to play the game, it appears that flooding is no longer individiaully controlled as per damage repair team but more, the crew in that compartment which is flooding.

As a quick fix measure and until we start to suss it out properly, I would up the hitpoints on certain equipment and reduce the floatability factors of the sub compartments in the zones cfg. This should stop the sub sinking like a stone and give persons a better chance at sussing the thing out without dying too quickly.

I did some test but as soon as damaged, I was history before I could suss things out.

I think sub compartment settings in zones cfg can give a quick cheat relief whilst people test the flooding and damage without dying too quickly.

Hope this helps

At a later date, I think Ndrifter will start to look at crew efficiency and if I find anything that may be of use to him, I will let him know.

P.s. also look at flooding speeds in the compartment zones.cfg as this can have significant effects regarding how fast the sub sinks.
I made changes into flooding times, armor and hit points...and works fine to control the floods, giving a long way to die, one time it take about one hour to reach the crush depth.

I use it in set with a reduced lethal radius into depth charges to minimize the probability of a suddent flood.

I dont touch the flotability values... almost yet. (because i had not done it in SH3 and have not experience)

Sub do not become an ubber sub, you can control some floods, but your hull seems to be stressed with each one, finally you go down slowly.

Gives more playability and make the game more interesting.

Plase mantain us up to date of your progress ....:up:

[gouldjg]

Bloody ell Redwine :o

It seems like your already getting it close to i.e. a slow death.

I think it will be great if in such circumstances, we can eventually recover if enough work was done within those minutes.

In sh3, I set it so that by moving men around the compartments, we can eventually recover from the almost certain death situation, I have yet to work properly with this game but hope we will get there soon.

Yes floatability changes can have good effects but a lot of playtesting is required.

It would be nice to see all the formular for new game in one file.

The new death scene may be able to get tweaked one day:up:

So much work to do but if we share these little things, i am sure we will get a good result in the end.

Thanks for info.

[Ducimus]

Personally all ive done was double the hitpoitns on compartments and equipment.

For example, various equipments normally have 100 hpts, i made them 200. In the zones.cfg, the compartments had 200 HP's! Thats low when you compare it to Sh3, so i made them 400 hps.

I thought about adjusting the flood times, but thought it would have been better to adjust the rate at which the water is acutally pumped out. Reason being is, well, it woudlnt take long to flood a sub, so i thought quick action on the part of the player is what was desierable. Unfortunatly it doesn look like you can increase the rate at which water is expelled from the sub.

I also thought about the floatablity, but i was afraid of upsetting some balance there so i didnt touch it.

[Redwine]

Bloody ell Redwine :o

It seems like your already getting it close to i.e. a slow death.

I think it will be great if in such circumstances, we can eventually recover if enough work was done within those minutes.

In sh3, I set it so that by moving men around the compartments, we can eventually recover from the almost certain death situation, I have yet to work properly with this game but hope we will get there soon.

Yes floatability changes can have good effects but a lot of playtesting is required.

It would be nice to see all the formular for new game in one file.

The new death scene may be able to get tweaked one day:up:

So much work to do but if we share these little things, i am sure we will get a good result in the end.

Thanks for info.

If you want to try... download the files from here

Reduced Depth Charges Lethal Radius:
http://rapidshare.com/files/23169672...H_IV_.zip.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/23169672/Depth_Charge_Mod_Stage_1__SH_IV_.zip.html)

Tweaked Sub Hit Points, Armor and Flooding Times :
http://rapidshare.com/files/23168795...age_1.zip.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/23168795/Tweaked_Zones_Stage_1.zip.html)


I use an increased underwater visibility to check how far the depth charges explodes and how much damage them produce.

Increased Underwater Visibility :
http://rapidshare.com/files/23236501...age_1.zip.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/23236501/Improved_Underwater_Visibility_Stage_1.zip.html)

Personally all ive done was double the hitpoitns on compartments and equipment.

For example, various equipments normally have 100 hpts, i made them 200. In the zones.cfg, the compartments had 200 HP's! Thats low when you compare it to Sh3, so i made them 400 hps.

I thought about adjusting the flood times, but thought it would have been better to adjust the rate at which the water is acutally pumped out. Reason being is, well, it woudlnt take long to flood a sub, so i thought quick action on the part of the player is what was desierable. Unfortunatly it doesn look like you can increase the rate at which water is expelled from the sub.

I also thought about the floatablity, but i was afraid of upsetting some balance there so i didnt touch it.

I only increased the compartements hit points, but not double pnlu 50%, in example in SH4 a determined compartement has 200 HP, in SH3 the same has 400 HP as you wrote, i rise up the HP only up to 300 HP.

And made an slight increase in compartements armor, from -1 up to 5 only.

I dont touched the objects... only compartements....



Gouldjg, Ducimus, both are interested into same objective... consider yourself both free to manipulate above files to obtain better and improved results... :up::up::up::up:

[U-Bones]

And made an slight increase in compartements armor, from -1 up to 5 only.

I dont touched the objects... only compartements....



IIRC, the -1 armor means default to hull armor level. If I am correct, 5 is actually -less- armor than the original -1 you changed.

[Redwine]

And made an slight increase in compartements armor, from -1 up to 5 only.

I dont touched the objects... only compartements....


IIRC, the -1 armor means default to hull armor level. If I am correct, 5 is actually -less- armor than the original -1 you changed.

Interesting, good to know, i sopupose -1 must to means some thing, i looked into other values in the file was around 10, 13, 15.... i put 5 to start up test to be moderated.

how to know wich is the default hull armor value ?

I made the test to move it out from negative values, any way it seems to works fine with that setting, any way, are only tests, we need play too much more testing.

My be it can be rised up, in example 15, 25, or back to -1.

:up:

[U-Bones]

how to know wich is the default hull armor value ?

:up:

I believe the default hull armor is external to zones.cfg - I suspect in NSS_*.zon, but do not know for sure.

[Redwine]

how to know wich is the default hull armor value ?

:up:
I believe the default hull armor is external to zones.cfg - I suspect in NSS_*.zon, but do not know for sure.

Not there almost in SH3 files...

Many thanks... :up:

[Reisman]

O.K here my take. I have tried various mods (including RedWine) and I still cannot see a difference. Just to give you an example. I got hit (deliberatly for testing) by a ship shell and got the "taking damage warning" - dived to periscope depth. On the crew station have damage team assigned and switched on. Noticed slither of blue water starting to get into one compartment. Damage team does not seem to be doing anything. Main pump comes up on my fail list (again just a slitther damage) and I select it to repair. Of course at this point I have sunk to the bottom (300+ feet) and the compartment is filling up fast with water. Then all compartments filled with water/ crew wounded and died. So the questions come up.
1. Why with so little (and for the most part slow) water entry do
a) Dive like a Rock and no matter what I do with the engines/ blow ballast etc..
makes no difference
b) When do the pumps not be able to handle a small leak
c) Why does my damage repair crew seem to do nothing (at least this appears this way)

Personally I think this was not thought out very well. Here is what I would have liked to have seen (and please any Modder that can do this please go ahead and make my day :sunny:).
Each compartment has its own bulkhead doors. When the crew is in normal stations (e.g not battlestations) all the bulhead doors are open (shown on the side picture of the sub) and the crew can be moved freely). If the Sub is hit and water comes in it will fill all coompatments (depending on the severity slowly or quickly). The pump should only be able to be used in one compartment at a time. You have to be quick to save a sub this way and is dangerous. Okay onto Battlestations. When in Battlestations all the bulkhead doors are closed and no water can change to different compartments (also you could not change crew members between compartments without first turning off battlestations). A sub should at least be able to loose one non ciritcal compartment (full of water) and still be able to get to the surface (with moderate difficulty - flank and blow ballast). Critical compartments are the Engine room (obviously bad news if this gets flooded) and the Command Center. Lose these and you are lost at sea. Bear in mind both of these are the most protected so it would be rare.
The other thing I would have liked to see is if a shut off compartment starts to flood you could pull your crew out and put damage crew members in (to fix the leaks hopefully). If you did this obviously the water would fill both compartments 50/50. You could only do this if the compartment is under 25% filled with water. Anymore would be too dangerous. Any crew members still inside the compartment will be killed after 1 mintute of being fully submerged. I would like to see more open spaces in other compartments so any displaced crew can be placed there (just look at the control room - you could get several additional crew members in there without too much difficulty). They would not have any job function just be alive and replace wounded/tired crew members when necessary.
Please also put in a place some form of info on what the damage crew are doing (e.g. even if its a rotating wrench to show where they are working or what they are working on). Make good components green, damaged components yellow, permanently broken components red and repaired components orange (to signify working but not as good as they should be - still damaged after all - reduces efficiency etc.. - maybe first time repaired 50% effective and 50% less hit points - second time 25% effective 75% less hit points and third time cannot be repaired and is permanently damaged. If a part get hit twice before being repaired it is permanently broken). Show this info on the sub repair screen please.
I know this seems like a lot of work and I hope this gives inspiration to the game programers for the next Silent Hunter Game. :hmm:


Reisman

[Reisman]

Just been testing a bit more with a new mod and it does seem to help with the sinking/ flooding however I still cannot seem to get the repair crew working. I have not go silent running on, I have turned on the repair team and asigned crew members from the crew screen. I just sat on the bottom of the ocean for 5 minutes and none of the items in the repair list changed/repaired during this time. Am I missing something. Can someone tell me what I need to do. I have seen them repair damage once but it was too quick to see. I would expect to see the red bars reduce and then once reach nothing to be removed from the list but this just is not happening. Please help. Thanks.

Reisman

[U-Bones]

I just lost a P class off the coast of Java to aircraft. Took some shelling as I went down, and had 3 compartments flooding with 3 bulkheads and main pump damaged (plus all engines and other various systems).

Went to Battle Stations and got together a decent damage crew, and things were prioritized oddly, had to move the pump to #1 and get bulkheads higher. Things started pulling together and getting under control as I moved things around now and then over 15 minutes or so.

Got to my last bulkhead and got comfortable. Went to external to see how visible I was at PD, which made me nervous enough to order 70 feet. Oops. Major leakage, no engines, no batteries, dead in less than 1 min.

Observations:
1. Crew prioritizes badly. Pumps are not trivial when flooding.
2. Component feedback omission makes it hard for you to proioritize. Not neccessarily bad for play, but it would be helpful for tweaking.
3. Hull status rating needed, even a simple Sound/Suspect/Shakey/Scrap.
4. Screws were turning even with all Electric motors "damaged".
5. Dead batteries = no turns. nice change from SH3

I was playing with zones.cfg modifed to slow down compartment flooding and the drag downward when taking on water.

Flotability=6.0 ;Original/2 - all compartments halved to slow descent.
FloodingTime=3601 ;Original was 120

This seemed to work fairly well - but the floatability needs to be cheated towards the end compartments to let them take the boat off level, and perhaps bumped up a bit overall. I should have been slightly stern heavy tonight, but seemed to hold level easily at low speed. Seems it should have required more turns to keep depth.

I am running compartment hitpoints from FTT1F, but I am thinking about going back to stock numbers, and reducing crew efficiency like SH3 to slow repairs. I am convinced that we need to model bomb/dc damage down rather than beef the sub up to avoid further unbalancing on the surface. I basically shelved SH3 when I realized what tanks the subs had become on the surface, so I hate to see Sh4 go there too.

Interesting night. All in all, in spite of loathing the new interface, I am pleased with the game.

[gouldjg]

I am convinced that we need to model bomb/dc damage down rather than beef the sub up to avoid further unbalancing on the surface. I basically shelved SH3 when I realized what tanks the subs had become on the surface, so I hate to see Sh4 go there too.

Interesting night. All in all, in spite of loathing the new interface, I am pleased with the game.


Quite right

I think this should have been the case for sh3 but it was too late.

The sub should be central and bombs tc should be set towards its current levels.

That way, collisions should still work.

Thanks for feedback

[Redwine]

Just to give you an example. I got hit (deliberatly for testing) by a ship shell and got the "taking damage warning" - dived to periscope depth.

........

Reisman

May be a shell impact is too much, may be it cause an unrepairable damage ?

Did you tryed with Depth Charges ?

[Redwine]

I was playing with zones.cfg modifed to slow down compartment flooding and the drag downward when taking on water.

Flotability=6.0 ;Original/2 - all compartments halved to slow descent.
FloodingTime=3601 ;Original was 120

Interesting your test with Flotability Values, i had no experience with them.

This flotability increase doesnt kill de pitch up sink we had seen in the game ?

This seemed to work fairly well - but the floatability needs to be cheated towards the end compartments to let them take the boat off level, and perhaps bumped up a bit overall. I should have been slightly stern heavy tonight, but seemed to hold level easily at low speed. Seems it should have required more turns to keep depth.

I am sorry my bad english, but may it is related to what i am asking above... are you attempting to maintain the stern with less flotability ?

I am running compartment hitpoints from FTT1F, but I am thinking about going back to stock numbers, and reducing crew efficiency like SH3 to slow repairs. I am convinced that we need to model bomb/dc damage down rather than beef the sub up to avoid further unbalancing on the surface. I basically shelved SH3 when I realized what tanks the subs had become on the surface, so I hate to see Sh4 go there too.

Interesting night. All in all, in spite of loathing the new interface, I am pleased with the game.

Which Armor values are you using...?

[tater]

Well, we know the stock DCs for the IJN are way too powerful and sink too fast (been addressed as a mod already). In addition, the aircraft are all grossly over armed with oversized bombs. The zeros stock carry 3x1100lb bombs!

I'm personally very wary of using a mod that reduces the damage to the sub since in my experience they are already too hard to sink. I got into a few deck gun fights with DDs, and I get POUNDED by them. None the less as I flank along, my DC crew is fixing stuff and I can usually sink a DD or 2 with the deck gun before I get sunk. If it was any harder to sink my boat, I could flank into Simpson Harbor and duke it out on the surface and win I think. It would be really useful if this game had "arcade mode" like il-2. That shows each shot that hits as an arrow, even shows explosion fragments. very useful to do a replay in that mode and see what was actually hit... perhaps in my surface fights all the damage was near hits, but i know I saw splashes in front of me a ways, then got massive hull damage (a slightly short shot hitting me below water line?).

If a slower siking (to give the skipper some fun DC to do) is desirable, perhaps the DC could be improved, not the damage reduced? Dunno, I'd need to play more sans CTD/BSOD.

[nvdrifter]

Compartment Flotability settings in the Zones.cfg adjust how heavy the water is in the flooding compartment. The higher the number, the heavier the water.. which means the faster the sub will be dragged down by flooding.

[U-Bones]

Compartment Flotability settings in the Zones.cfg adjust how heavy the water is in the flooding compartment. The higher the number, the heavier the water.. which means the faster the sub will be dragged down by flooding.

Yes.

And to answer your questions Redwine, I am suggesting make the end compartments more heavy than the middle so that they impact trim level more. Also I was using stock Armor settings.

My next attempt will have total compartment floatability at 60% of original, instead of the 50% I just used but I will redistribute it towards the ends of the boat. Basically, I made the boat too light, and too easy to keep level.

[U-Bones]

Well, we know the stock DCs for the IJN are way too powerful and sink too fast (been addressed as a mod already). In addition, the aircraft are all grossly over armed with oversized bombs. The zeros stock carry 3x1100lb bombs!

I'm personally very wary of using a mod that reduces the damage to the sub since in my experience they are already too hard to sink. I got into a few deck gun fights with DDs, and I get POUNDED by them. None the less as I flank along, my DC crew is fixing stuff and I can usually sink a DD or 2 with the deck gun before I get sunk. If it was any harder to sink my boat, I could flank into Simpson Harbor and duke it out on the surface and win I think. It would be really useful if this game had "arcade mode" like il-2. That shows each shot that hits as an arrow, even shows explosion fragments. very useful to do a replay in that mode and see what was actually hit... perhaps in my surface fights all the damage was near hits, but i know I saw splashes in front of me a ways, then got massive hull damage (a slightly short shot hitting me below water line?).

If a slower siking (to give the skipper some fun DC to do) is desirable, perhaps the DC could be improved, not the damage reduced? Dunno, I'd need to play more sans CTD/BSOD.

That is why I am suggesting that we mod weapons used against the sub rather than buffing the sub up. That way you can reduce DC damage without unbalancing the surface or AA fights, and vice versa.

Improving DC mostly means things get fixed too fast to enjoy/realize/care, but really has no effect on spped of sinking. Thats why we are trying to slow down flooding/sinking without improving DC efficiency, or without buffing the sub and unbalancing things.

I suspect we will all be isolating and tweaking crew efficiency soon.

[Redwine]

Compartment Flotability settings in the Zones.cfg adjust how heavy the water is in the flooding compartment. The higher the number, the heavier the water.. which means the faster the sub will be dragged down by flooding.

Many thanks... :up:

The problem is when you pump out all the water after a floding.

The rear compartements seems to have a behaviour like as if they are still full of water.

You see no water into the damage control, but the sub adquire a high pitch up, you can sueface, but if you dive depth, you loss control and sinks as a rock, with no damage showed into the bulkhead, or with no flood into compartements.

May be the flotability is the key ?

[Redwine]

And to answer your questions Redwine, I am suggesting make the end compartments more heavy than the middle so that they impact trim level more. Also I was using stock Armor settings.

My next attempt will have total compartment floatability at 60% of original, instead of the 50% I just used but I will redistribute it towards the ends of the boat. Basically, I made the boat too light, and too easy to keep level.

Thanks... :up:

I understand bad, or you are looking for a desestabilzation of the sub, when its after and froward compartements are under flood ?

My english is limited, but when you say:

"I am suggesting make the end compartments more heavy than the middle so that they impact trim level more."

I understand you are looking for a kind of trouble making the sub hard pitch up and/or down when under flood on the eand compartements ?

The problem are those rear compartements, whic after a flooding cause a strong pitch up and sink.

[U-Bones]

And to answer your questions Redwine, I am suggesting make the end compartments more heavy than the middle so that they impact trim level more. Also I was using stock Armor settings.

My next attempt will have total compartment floatability at 60% of original, instead of the 50% I just used but I will redistribute it towards the ends of the boat. Basically, I made the boat too light, and too easy to keep level.
Thanks... :up:

...I understand you are looking for a kind of trouble making the sub hard pitch up and/or down when under flood on the eand compartements ?

The problem are those rear compartements, whic after a flooding cause a strong pitch up and sink.

Correct. I was too level with stern damage on last config. SHould have had heavy stern.

Yes, I have experienced that heavy stern -after- repairs are completed. I have no idea what to do about it - as there is no flooding or damage apparent - it must be a bug (so I ignore the behavior for now)

Also when I experience this bug I was using stock everything. Strange behavior - normal trim on surface. 30 degree angle at periscope at ahead std. I thought it behaved like I could not flood bow tanks, but I had not taken any bow damage...

[U-Bones]

I went back to stock zones.cfg and changed only sub compartments to
Floatability of about 60% of what it was and increased flood times to 3601.

I redistributed the floatibility to cheat towards the ends of the sub. All compartments were reset to 12 except comms at 6, bow torp at 24 and stern torp at 20.

Finally a Betty came along. and I took engine room and topside damage as I dove.
Finally took care of everythig except the topside guns and surfaced and fixed them. The AA damage kept coming back....

I had no major flooding, so no observation on trim issues - but the stock HP resulted in much quicker repairs on average, with way too many damaged components. Also seems like ALL engined get damaged every time, not just one or two.
It is worth noting that the bulkhead damage (to engine room) mentioned that the HULL was repaired when it was repaired. This is not good.

Hours later, i was drove under and I sank like a rock - the dreaded heavy tail with no apparent damage syndrome. Dry flooding. I have seen this in stock 1.1 also.

Playing around with a save I tried to limp home in the shallows, which allowed me to all stop and PD when i ran up on a patrol, which resulted with me on the bottom @60ft. A couple rounds of dealing with damage outbreaks, and suddenly one went wild... this was after maybe 30 min at PD, and it broke up.

I dunno about this. Right now I am way disappointed with damage control. I think it needs a whole patch on its own.

Unfixable items should say destroyed/unrepairable and be taken out of consideration if they are not critical.

Dry flooding is unacceptable. If my stern is going to pull me to the depths, I would prefer it be blue so I have a clue.

While I am noticing things, AA is way too deadly. I think I shot down 3 Bettys this patrol.

[castorp345]

i think you've got it right on the money, u-bones...
damage representation certainly seems nerfed as of 1.1
the dry-flooding issue is a pretty major show stopper.
'haven't been following the 1.1 bug reports, but have you posted on these issues there as well?

cheers
hc

[Roadsweeper]

U-Bones,

With regard to your comment about AA being too deadly, I'd be hesitant on that one. Maybe they are slightly too effective but not by much.

The Japanese planes had a SERIOUS flaw, in being none of them carried self sealing fuel tanks and were poorly armoured, in most cases no armour at all, especailly with the bombers. This made them very easy to shoot down, a few heated rounds in any of the fuel tank areas and the tanks ignite, without self sealing the fire spreads around & all the planes tanks went poof.

Even the F4F Wildcats armed with only 4 x 50cals found it dead easy to shoot down a zero or a betty once they got in a firing position. This was fixed later on with the likes of the Oscar and the Frank fighters which carried heavier armour and self sealing tanks.

The P-38's armed with 4 x 50 cal and a single 20mm, OBLITERATED the japanese aircraft if they got a solid hit with the 20mm, which is why they were so deadly in the Pacific and only mediocre in Europe (german aircraft being decently armoured and having self sealing tanks).

OK, Ive only piloted a Porpoise at the moment and I'm only half way through my first career, but even the Porpoise has twin 20mm cannon. Add the fact we have cannons armed with high explosive and armour piercing rounds (no just solid lead), its quite beliveable the planes can be brought down so easily.

I think the hardest part of sub -> aircraft combat was actually hitting it.....

One of the regualrs in the pub I worked in was a pilot based on the Enterprise before it was redesignated a night carrier in late 43 / early 44, some of his stories were amazing, ok they were stories but would have had some element of truth. He often said the Betty's and the odd 4 engined recon plane they came accross, was more or less a turkey shoot if they were unescorted.

[U-Bones]

U-Bones,

With regard to your comment about AA being too deadly, I'd be hesitant on that one. Maybe they are slightly too effective but not by much.

The Japanese planes had a SERIOUS flaw, in being none of them carried self sealing fuel tanks and were poorly armoured, in most cases no armour at all, especailly with the bombers. This made them very easy to shoot down, a few heated rounds in any of the fuel tank areas and the tanks ignite, without self sealing the fire spreads around & all the planes tanks went poof.

Even the F4F Wildcats armed with only 4 x 50cals found it dead easy to shoot down a zero or a betty once they got in a firing position. This was fixed later on with the likes of the Oscar and the Frank fighters which carried heavier armour and self sealing tanks.

The P-38's armed with 4 x 50 cal and a single 20mm, OBLITERATED the japanese aircraft if they got a solid hit with the 20mm, which is why they were so deadly in the Pacific and only mediocre in Europe (german aircraft being decently armoured and having self sealing tanks).

OK, Ive only piloted a Porpoise at the moment and I'm only half way through my first career, but even the Porpoise has twin 20mm cannon. Add the fact we have cannons armed with high explosive and armour piercing rounds (no just solid lead), its quite beliveable the planes can be brought down so easily.

I think the hardest part of sub -> aircraft combat was actually hitting it.....

One of the regualrs in the pub I worked in was a pilot based on the Enterprise before it was redesignated a night carrier in late 43 / early 44, some of his stories were amazing, ok they were stories but would have had some element of truth. He often said the Betty's and the odd 4 engined recon plane they came accross, was more or less a turkey shoot if they were unescorted.

Point taken. But let me clarify why it feels too effective to me. I too was on a Purpoise. Each tme I cared to man the AA, I shot down a plane, twice on the initial run, one was only damaged and when he limped back for a second go I got him. Something less than 100% and I would probably not have objected.

Plane vs plane is not a good basis for comparison of shipbased AA.

Plane vs Sub should be lopsided in favor of the plane. Both are very vunerable targets but the sub is usually somewhat outgunned and always grossly out manuevered.

Not really a big issue to me - I never stay topside vs aircraft unless I must (or am trying to take damage for testing).

[Roadsweeper]

Yeah very true, but think of the dimensions of your sub :)

Its what.... less than 10m wide, now if ur diving in a plane doing 300mph, that doesnt give you very much time to aim at that pencil thin line on the ocean :)

OK I'm no expert, but I know more than one case where the japanese carriers just steamed in circles and level bombing B25's just couldnt hit them (and they are a tad wider that a sub). Found lovely pics of the Saragota doing just that. From what info I have picked up out of ww2 submariners diaries if a sub got caught on the surface, it rammed the rudder accross full while diving, resulting in a near miss from bombs..

But yes still very valid point.

In terms of realism I dont think the betty's or those 4 engined scouts would dive on us like that. They, I would have thought, bombed from a few thousand feet where subs anti-aircraft fire was less effective. They just present too big a target that close. You could shoot with your eyes shut and still hit :P

Maybe someone could mod the diving pattern and get them to level bomb instead of dive....