[REQ] Realistic Ship Sinking Times

[Galanti]

Is there any way to increase the length of time it takes for a ship to sink? I want to enjoy my victim's slow agonizing descent into the depths. They go down like cinder blocks now.

[CCIP]

Totally agreed. I'm personally hoping that Der Teddy Bar comes through (hint hint) and applies the NYGM damage values to SHIV.

[Galanti]

That would be pretty sweet. I haven't made up my mind about the actual damage model, as I sank a heavy cruiser with four torps, which seems about right. However, I seen posts where players are sinking Yamatos and CVs with 2-3 hits.

Which begs the question: does game difficuly have anything to do with it? IE, does the selected difficulty affect anything besides the visible settings you can configure (like manual TDC, unlimited fuel, etc)

[CCIP]

The game difficulty shouldn't affect it.

What I think is happening is that the game has a fairly large 'critical hit' zone on many units, usually in the boilers. One hit there tends to be sufficient to bring down the whole ship.

Reducing hit zones like that and seriously tweaking a damage model would require a .zon editor. As far as I'm aware, both NYGM and GWX teams for SHIII had their own private .zon editors developed; Der Teddy Bar and Ref are the ones who would have access to these.

What I think needs to be done for a more realistic sinking model with SHIV is
1) Reducing critical hit chances/zones
2) Seriously increasing the flooding times (ships sink quickly because it takes only seconds for a given compartment to fill up with water)
3) Somewhat increasing the overall hit points (not even for all ships, perhaps)
4) (not directly related) Increasing torpedo failure chances (depth error in particular)

[Galanti]

For now I'd be happy increasing the flooding times. Would adjusting values in the main zones file do it, or would I need the zones editor to tweak individual ships?

[CCIP]

I would try adjusting the zones to see what happens. I do know that for more serious revisions, editing individual zones is still usually done. But I think editing the zones file should be able to increase flooding times.

[http]

Realistic sinking time was supposed to be in the game as an realism option and add 8% in realism, but it's missing!:down:

Also missing ''No weapon Officer Assistance'' (add 6%) and ''No noise meter'' (add 2%)...

[CCIP]

Well yes, but there is neither a weapons officer nor a stealth meter in the game.

[CaptainCox]

Look in :
C:/Program Files/Ubisoft/SH4/Data/ (folder is called "Zones")

Only 1 example

;************************************************* ******
;NEW SMALL MERCHANT
;************************************************* ******
[NSKeel]
Category=Keel
Multiplier=5.0
Flotability=50.0
HitPoints=120
Destructible=No
Armor Level=20
Critic Flotation=0.99
Critical=Yes
Critical Chance=1.0
FloodingTime=120
CargoType=None
[NSFlotMain]
Multiplier=1.0
Flotability=8.0
HitPoints=100
Destructible=No
Armor Level=-1
Critic Flotation=0.30
Critical=No
FloodingTime=60
CargoType=Custom
Crash Depth=12
[NSFlotEmpty]
Multiplier=1.0
Flotability=40.0
HitPoints=100
Destructible=No
Armor Level=13
Critic Flotation=0.30
Critical=No
FloodingTime=60
CargoType=None
Crash Depth=12

[NSFlotShow]
Multiplier=1.0
Flotability=5.0
HitPoints=100
Destructible=No
Armor Level=-1
Critic Flotation=0.30
Critical=No
FloodingTime=60
CargoType=None
Crash Depth=12
[NSFlotUpper]
Multiplier=1.0
Flotability=10.00
HitPoints=10
Destructible=No
Armor Level=-1
Critic Flotation=0.01
Critical=No
FloodingTime=30
CargoType=None
Crash Depth=0.5
[NSFuelBunker]
Category=Fuel Bunkers
Multiplier=5.0
Flotability=2.5
HitPoints=100
Destructible=No
Armor Level=15
Critic Flotation=0.3
Critical=Yes
Critical Chance=0.05
FloodingTime=80.0
CargoType=Fuel


I guess one could play with these...

[9th_cow]

it would certainly be nice, i took out a small troop carrier with a single torp and saw the crew bail, but it never sank.
wich to me is much more interesting than seeing it go pop and dissapear.

[malkuth74]

How about we fix the fact that it takes 8-10 torps to kill some ships like Med Frieghters. If you made the sink times any longer or harder I would go insane.

Some ships can still cruise while halfway sumerged and keep on going. That is issues that need addressing.

[Galanti]

Okay, I've definately had some success with tweaking the zones.cfg file, but's kind of flakey. I'm going to grab my GWX zones.cfg and do some comparing. I know the GWX damage model involved changes to individual ship zone files, but I want to look at flooding and criticality in a general way.

[walsh2509]

last mission dropping of a spy on the japanese coast , I get a new update patrol, I've to patrol the japanese coast. With only 4 stern torps left I was not going to hang around to long.

Not long after I dropped the spy off, I had a task force contact, bottom line turned out to be 3 DD and a Liner 18,000+tns the one on the 1st page of the ship rec manual.

Anyhoo, stormy night I was lined up and she was about to pass within 350meters of my stern. Just about seen her funnels and masts could not make out the hull.

Any way I had set all 4 torps depth to 5meters and 1st set at 0angle the other 3, angles 1. 2 and 3. I let her have all 4 torps (my setting 73%) I though that 4 would not be enough. But all 4 hit and I seen flames from her rear funnel and within 3minutes of my 1st torp hitting she was gone, down to a watery grave.

So I don't think the devs have set the sinkings to ultra slow, some do others like that 18,000tn+ Liner were gone in under 3 mins.

Another time I had not torps left, and this 5,000+tn Freighter was sailing close by in the dead of night, I got my deck gun crew to open up on her from close range (500meters) The 1st shot I hit her midship, the 2nd hit her rear deck and when it did , there was a massive explosion and she started to sink . 2 shells.

Again she was gone in about 2 mins...

[Galanti]

Well I think I'm getting somewhere, but will need to test more. Ships seem to last quite a bit longer, but once that 'Unit destroyed' threshhold is crossed, they still go down fast

However, I've just found this parameter in C:\Games\Silent Hunter 4\Data\UPCData\GamePlaySettings:
RealisticShipSinkingTime=true

It says at the top that this file is no longer used but maybe the paramter is still valid! Can't play now, but i'm going to try and put this line in my data/gameplaysetting.cfg and see what happens

[Beery]

I did a study on real sinking times for RUb and I seem to recall that most ships sank fairly fast - between one and ten minutes, with a few taking longer. I'd have to look up the post again (if it exists after all this time) to confirm this.

[tater]

I think that thin-skinned merchants with very few crew compared to warships should probably sink quickly as you suggest. I have a bigger issue with warships. I did the photo recon quick mission and sank all 3 CVs, plus a DD, plus all 3 merchants. The CVs took 2 torpedos, rolled over and sank within 2 minutes of being hit. That's just absurd I think if it happens all the time, or even most of the time (and yeah, I know, IJN damage control was pretty terrible).

Anyway, warships have the crew to effect DC at some level. Perhaps the CVs are bugged... I also notices that a few DDs I got stuck shelling with the deck gun blew up with a couple HE placed on the TTs.

tater

[CCIP]

I did a study on real sinking times for RUb and I seem to recall that most ships sank fairly fast - between one and ten minutes, with a few taking longer. I'd have to look up the post again (if it exists after all this time) to confirm this.

That's true, though we're still talking in minutes rather than seconds! I think it's safe to say that right now we're looking at sinking times that are below a minute for the most part, with only a few exceptions here and there.

[bclaw2004]

I have found some freighters take a very long time and some go down very quickly, one that I managed to break her back went straight to the bottom without the crew getting off.

Tankers vary also, I found also a three torp spread along the hull working best, one under the funnel, one to the middle either side of the funnel. I have had a couple refusing to sink till I poured on the deck gun fire.

I have the most success aiming under the funnel and under the holds/masts putting usually 3 torps into a med freighter and more as the size increases. Some I have used the one under the funnel stopping them dead in the water waiting for the escorts to leave and finishing them off with the deck gun.

In general I have found a varing time for most ships to sink, as it would be expected. I did have a stern to bow hit on a destroyer which sank very quickly surprisingly.

Two torps into the same place sometimes causing the ship to sink, but more often not.

Hope this helps
Brett

[Galanti]

RealisticShipSinkingTime=true seems to be working for me, can anyone else give it a shot?

Put it in your GameplaySettings.cfg file, under all difficulties levels, start a game, change the difficulty and apply so the new line is read and go put some marus under.

[Immacolata]

I cant check SHIV right now, but I seem to remember that I have enabled Realistic sinking times in difficulty settings.

Do I need to ALSO enable that setting, Galanti? Did you already enable the realistic sinking ingame before you altered the zon file?

[tater]

^^^how do you alter a zon file? is their a view you need?

tater

[Galanti]

Well I had to manually add that parameter, it's not visible from the option menu in-game.

You know, I'll have to double check whether I removed my custome zone file before testing that parameter. It was kind of late.

[Galanti]

Anyone want to test my Zones file? I'm getting what I think are better results on small to medium merchies and destroyers, but I haven't the time to test against BBs, CAs and CVs.

Send me a PM if you are.

[nimitstexan]

I think the realisticsinkingtimes=true does the trick, at least sort of. Least ways, I fired 5 torps into a 5000 ton merchant, all hits. She was on fire and listing to port, but after about an hour of game time she was still afloat.

[ccruner13]

I think the realisticsinkingtimes=true does the trick, at least sort of. Least ways, I fired 5 torps into a 5000 ton merchant, all hits. She was on fire and listing to port, but after about an hour of game time she was still afloat.

well that happens to me without changing anything and honestly it shouldnt. and they dont sink no matter how long you wait. i think the game doesnt do anything with water on the decks? the problem is warships that should be armored get huge holes and the merchants i hit more often than not dont have any. i had a kongo bb with its side guns underwater (2 torps) but it didnt go anywhere after that. then i plugged it with two more on the otherside and its hole aft deck was underwater with waves going over its large turrets but still nothing. 5th torped right under the front guns didnt make it explode (:o) but it finally fricken sank. all vanilla. and i used i think 17 torps total? only got him and accidently hit a dd. if only ships would succumb to the seas. if that could be modded in id be happy with them not sinking right away then

[Beery]

I think the realisticsinkingtimes=true does the trick, at least sort of. Least ways, I fired 5 torps into a 5000 ton merchant, all hits. She was on fire and listing to port, but after about an hour of game time she was still afloat.

well that happens to me without changing anything and honestly it shouldnt. and they dont sink no matter how long you wait. i think the game doesnt do anything with water on the decks? the problem is warships that should be armored get huge holes and the merchants i hit more often than not dont have any. i had a kongo bb with its side guns underwater (2 torps) but it didnt go anywhere after that. then i plugged it with two more on the otherside and its hole aft deck was underwater with waves going over its large turrets but still nothing. 5th torped right under the front guns didnt make it explode (:o) but it finally fricken sank. all vanilla. and i used i think 17 torps total? only got him and accidently hit a dd. if only ships would succumb to the seas. if that could be modded in id be happy with them not sinking right away then

It was not by any means unheard of for a ship to need five torpedoes to sink her. Here's an example (from http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/g9/gudgeon-i.htm):

"Gudgeon's seventh war patrol (13 March-6 April) netted her two more Japanese ships before she ran out of torpedoes and had to return to Australia. On 22 March she sank 5,434-ton Meigen Maru as well as seriously damaging two other ships in the convoy. Five days later Gudgeon took on 9,997-ton tanker Toko Maru in a night surface attack punctuated by bursts of gunfire as the Japanese ships spotted and fired on the submarine. It took five torpedoes to sink Toko Maru, and most of Gudgeon's crew enjoyed the rare treat of watching her slide into the depths."

Here's an example of a ship that was hit by seven torpedoes before sinking (from http://www.combinedfleet.com/ashigara_t.htm):

6 June 1945:
ASHIGARA embarks about 1, 600 army troops and materiel.

8 June 1945:
Departs Batavia for Singapore via the Bangka Strait. HMS TRENCHANT takes up position on the inside of the Strait. TRENCHANT sights ASHIGARA coming north, hugging the Sumatran coast.

At 1215, Cdr Hezlet fires eight Mark VIII torpedoes from his bow and deck tubes at ASHIGARA from 4,700 yards. The cruiser's lookouts spot the torpedoes, but she is trapped between the shore and a minefield. ASHIGARA tries to turn into and comb the torpedoes, but she cannot complete the maneuver in time. She is hit by five torpedoes and reduced to a wreck. She moves ahead slowly and her AA guns open fire briefly on TRENCHANT's periscope. After some thirty of his crewmen observe the sinking cruiser through the periscope, Hezlet circles to bring his stern tubes to bear and fires two more torpedoes.

At 1237, ASHIGARA capsizes and sinks at 01-59S, 104-56E. KAMIKAZE rescues 853 crewmen and about 400 army troops.

[nimitstexan]

I think the realisticsinkingtimes=true does the trick, at least sort of. Least ways, I fired 5 torps into a 5000 ton merchant, all hits. She was on fire and listing to port, but after about an hour of game time she was still afloat.

well that happens to me without changing anything and honestly it shouldnt. and they dont sink no matter how long you wait. i think the game doesnt do anything with water on the decks? the problem is warships that should be armored get huge holes and the merchants i hit more often than not dont have any. i had a kongo bb with its side guns underwater (2 torps) but it didnt go anywhere after that. then i plugged it with two more on the otherside and its hole aft deck was underwater with waves going over its large turrets but still nothing. 5th torped right under the front guns didnt make it explode (:o) but it finally fricken sank. all vanilla. and i used i think 17 torps total? only got him and accidently hit a dd. if only ships would succumb to the seas. if that could be modded in id be happy with them not sinking right away then

If I understand you correctly, 5 torpedos to sink a battleship (even a weak one like the Kongo) sounds about right.

[ccruner13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Lusitania

only 1 torpedo secondary explosion blew out the other side sank in 18 minutes. i understand there are differences and no two thing will be the same im just saying. the last two were probably overkill as in it was already sinking? i havent ever seen a ship take 18 minutes to sink...they either sink in 30 seconds or they dont sink at all. so does this mod make it so my 5 shotter on the bb still sinks it just takes longer or would i need a 6th then? i mean i dont know how a ships gun batteries can not leak water and pull it down farther as well as in some cases parts of the bridge or whole halves of ships. the bb said unit destroyed without exploding and then sank real quick

[Egan]

Yeah the campaign difficulty settings in the 'GamePLaySettings cfg' in the UPCData folder has realistic sinking switched off for everything except the hardest difficulty level (realistic or Very Hard as it seems to be called in the game.) I've been playing at very hard in my current campaign so far but can't comment as I haven't sunk anything yet.

Might be an idea to switch it on for Easy mode, go out, mow down some shipping and compare.

I wonder why this doesn't appear under the normal realism options, though. I've heard claims that the campaign difficulty affects the AI but I don't know how true this is.

[ccruner13]

i put the realistic ship sinking in my cfg. i was cruising around and picked up some ships a blieve a string of two merchants. as im on my intercept a squall picks up and i cant see them anymore so i stop where they should be-ish and drop to 55 feet for sonar...theys close so i periscope and my men spot a ship...and its a liferaft. so did the high seas sink my merchants or what? if this isnt just some weird coincidence this is awesome

[Beery]

i put the realistic ship sinking in my cfg. i was cruising around and picked up some ships a blieve a string of two merchants. as im on my intercept a squall picks up and i cant see them anymore so i stop where they should be-ish and drop to 55 feet for sonar...theys close so i periscope and my men spot a ship...and its a liferaft. so did the high seas sink my merchants or what? if this isnt just some weird coincidence this is awesome

Sounds like the return of the SH3 'rough seas sink ships' bug.

[ccruner13]

bug? when i first started playing i was hoping this might happen but never saw an case of it. so wounded ships might sink in high seas afterall?