[REL] Increased Crush Depths

[CCIP]

http://rapidshare.com/files/22769887/SH4_Crush_Depths.zip.html
or
http://senduit.com/508f11
or
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TWPF9NBF


After numerous complaints (including mine) and some research, I decided that the crush depth modelling in stock SHIV is inadequate.

As a result, I've increased crush depths for all submarines by 1/3 to 1/2. All submarines should now be capable of reaching close to twice their test depth before being crushed. Whereas previously attempting to sustain 1.5 times the test depth was fatal, it is now safely possible.

Test Depths:
S Class - 200ft
Porpoise/Salmon/Sargo/Tambor/Gar - 250ft
Gato - 300ft
Balao - 400ft

You can judge the diving depth from there. Additionally, it will be hard to abuse this at the moment because the gauge only goes to 450 and, as you know, the 'maintain depth' button does not work :p

Keep in mind that this was also the case with SHIII where the stock game greatly undermodeled the crush depths. Advanced mods such as GWX and NYGM placed the crush depths at approximately 2.5 times the test depth for the U-boats. Also, when you are damaged, the maximum depth will drastically decrease.

[Tigrone]

Thank your CCIP, I was poking around trying to figure out how to do this.

[vils]

nice! However, wouldnt this create a risk of turning all jap subhunters pretty useless?

[CaptJodan]

Bravo. Good to see this, thanks CCIP.

[OneTinSoldier]

This sounds more like the way crush depths should be. Thanks CCIP! :rock:

[castorp345]

This sounds more like the way crush depths should be. Thanks CCIP! :rock:

agreed.
thanks CCIP!
:up:

(and a little tip for all: these crush depth values can also be randomized with TimeTraveller's SH3 Inspector Program by simply copying over the desired subs directory to sh3's data\submarine\ directory (Inspector then picks it up as native sh3 sub, ready for manipulation). of course after the numbers have been tweaked to one's heart's content you'll need to copy back the .zon file to the orginal directory for the sub under sh4...
a little tedious but until some coding guru builds us a directory specific app... :-?)

[CCIP]

:D Oh cool, why didn't I think of that?

Great tip Castorp, thanks for that.

Personally I still wish the devs changed the crush depth modelling within the game to a dynamic 'threshold' rather than a precise depth at which the sub starts taking damage. It would be great to have a 'critical zone' where the sub might randomly implode at any moment, or might be actually safe instead.

[jmop]

:D:up:

[FIREWALL]

Thank You. Another good mod being added as we speak.:up:

[9th_cow]

thank you for this one!

[fire-fox]

hi ccip where did you get the sh4/3 mini tweaker/mod tools from

[Captain_Jack]

You can judge the diving depth from there. Additionally, it will be hard to abuse this at the moment because the gauge only goes to 450 .

Excellent Work! :up:

Correct, Historically the Depth Gauge only went to 450 Feet. So the look of the stock SHIV Depth Gauge is 100% Accurate. But of course Boats could go deeper..I guess they hoped they would never have to go deeper than 450!!

But keep the look of the Depth Gauge at 450, modeling a new one that goes deeper would ruin the historic feel and be very inaccurate.

Overall I think the SHIV team did a good job of modeling the gauges and interiors.

More Photos at http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u241/Burbus66

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u241/Burbus66/023CtrlRm.jpg

[StandingCow]

Thank you sir!

[Ducimus]

Personally I still wish the devs changed the crush depth modelling

I think they did, just not what youd expect. One thing that worked well in SH3 was a slow crush rate. ( Crash speed, im sure youre your familar with it)

In testing with SH4, it seemed like going below crush depth X amount of time, the game made a decision - implosion. Slowing down the crush rate only delayed the execution of that decision. Hence in testing i had a boat impload at 40 feet when on the way back to the surface from a really deep dive.

[CCIP]

Actually that was the result of mods. Stock SHIII also had a high crash speed like this does.

I'm still wondering whether to adjust it or not. On the one hand, it prevents some of these implosion, on the other hand I did have a bit of an issue where for example with NYGM (which has a crash speed 20 times lower than default) I could make short dives to 320 meters on a Type VII and live to tell about them (not to mention still be able to dive to over 200m afterward).

[Garrincha]

Good work!!!

But but but... IIRC Richard O'Kane took his boat, USS TANG (a Balao class sub), deeper. He mentions a test depth of 438 ft in "Clear the bridge", and takes her during shakedown deep to over 600 ft. The depth gauge in his sub goes to 600, and 3/4th of an inch beyond that is the pin where the needle rests against. He later does it again during combat...

This raises some questions

1). Why is the gauge in SH4 calibrated to 450 ft. ( I don't have SH4 yet, so i can't comment on the actual gauge)

2). Are there different gauges in different subs of the same class

3). Why would you build a sub, give it a test depth of 438-450 feet, and whilst knowing that it can (safely) go deeper, yet only supply it with a 450 ft clock.

cheers,
Garrincha

PS "Clear the bridge" is a great read btw, you should try to get a copy

[castorp345]

where did you get the sh4/3 mini tweaker/mod tools from

here ==> http://www.delraydepot.com/tt/sh3sdk.htm

:)

[Captain_Jack]

Good work!!!

But but but... IIRC Richard O'Kane took his boat, USS TANG (a Balao class sub), deeper. He mentions a test depth of 438 ft in "Clear the bridge", and takes her during shakedown deep to over 600 ft. The depth gauge in his sub goes to 600, and 3/4th of an inch beyond that is the pin where the needle rests against. He later does it again during combat...

This raises some questions

1). Why is the gauge in SH4 calibrated to 450 ft. ( I don't have SH4 yet, so i can't comment on the actual gauge)

2). Are there different gauges in different subs of the same class

3). Why would you build a sub, give it a test depth of 438-450 feet, and whilst knowing that it can (safely) go deeper, yet only supply it with a 450 ft clock.

cheers,
Garrincha

PS "Clear the bridge" is a great read btw, you should try to get a copy


1. I'm guessing the developers created a 450 feet Gauge to simulate the Gato look (See photo above)

2. All the photos I have seen of the Gato Class shows the same Type of Gauge. The WWII Boats I have visited also have the same type. The Photo above is from the USS Drum (Gato WWII). The USS Cavalla has a different set BUT she was converted after the war to a Hunter-Killer Sub and had much of her equipment modernized.

3. Maybe as a Safety Measure?...just a guess

[Ducimus]

Actually that was the result of mods. Stock SHIII also had a high crash speed like this does.

I'm still wondering whether to adjust it or not.


Not sure we're on the same page. Stock crash speed is 2, NYGM is 0.1, in my own game in sh3 (orginally) id run a 0.5. When you removed the H.I readout, it was sort of like a guessing game when youd implode, but if you moved to a shallower depth, you took yourself out of danger of imploding.

This doesnt seem to be the case here. It seems like once the act of implosion has started, nothing will stop it. Crash speed only seems to slow it down, with Implosion seemingly an arbitrary decsion by the game This requires more testing, but this is what it felt like in a test i was doing.

[Silverfox18]

Thanks for this, but the download systems are quite confusing. Haven't a clue as to how to download this file without joining or paying for something else. I don't need a phone and I'm not going to start a pay/pal account! Thanks....but ?????

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

lol so now the boats can go so deep as the u-boats did? now, that's what I call "realism" :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[CCIP]

lol so now the boats can go so deep as the u-boats did? now, that's what I call "realism" :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Umm, who said that?

The subs go as deep as they're supposed to go. While it may well be that Balao boats could rival U-boats in diving depth, the majority of the subs in the game can only go to maybe 150-170m. That's barely the crush depth of a Type II in SHIII.

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

yeah, 170m are about 558 feet, it seems a little bit to much for those subs. IIRC I went to 530 or 540 feet with the Tench class in SH1, and it had the same crush depth as the Balao. But the other subs... :nope:
It must be some reason for scaling the depth gauge only to 450 ft, isn't it? (450ft x 0,3048m=137,16 m)
Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your work regarding mods, but this one reminds me of some hollywood war movies, simply to naive to be true :)
greets

[CCIP]

Actually this is based on perfectly good research. There are documented cases of Gato class boats exceeding the 450 depth in wartime and surviving; the S-class story I brought up last week cited a damaged boat sliding down to 350ft (nearly twice its test depth); then there is the famed incident with the USS Chopper, a Balao-class boat upgraded after the war (the hull, naturally, would have been the same), which sunk in a near-vertical position to 1011ft before blowing ballast and recovering - this is deeper than any recorded dive by a U-boat.

As I said, the only comparison with U-boats I drew is that if U-boats could exceed their tested depth over twice, there is no reason American subs couldn't approach twice their own (and in this mod's case, it is less than twice). I am not aware of any serious flaws in the American hull design.

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

ok, so I must be wrong about the depth capabilities of the US-boats. I thought they could never go so deep as U-boots did, but apparently I was wrong.

[Redwine]

Many thanks !

[AVGWarhawk]

All the download sites seems whacked. Any other place to get this?

[fire-fox]

Hi CCIP just a quick question, with the patch for SH4 that adds the S-42 class as a separt type to the other S-boat are there any planse (if it hasent been done already?) to update this mod to include it in the files. or is the s-42 crush deapth good as is (got flattend at about 380/90 ish FT in an 42 with this mod installed and now preveas damage)

[U-Bones]

Hi CCIP just a quick question, with the patch for SH4 that adds the S-42 class as a separt type to the other S-boat are there any planse (if it hasent been done already?) to update this mod to include it in the files. or is the s-42 crush deapth good as is (got flattend at about 380/90 ish FT in an 42 with this mod installed and now preveas damage)

The S42 uses the data files for the S18.
The Gar uses the Tambor.

Look in the NSS_*.cfg file for the clue.

[fire-fox]

Hi CCIP just a quick question, with the patch for SH4 that adds the S-42 class as a separt type to the other S-boat are there any planse (if it hasent been done already?) to update this mod to include it in the files. or is the s-42 crush deapth good as is (got flattend at about 380/90 ish FT in an 42 with this mod installed and now preveas damage)

The S42 uses the data files for the S18.
The Gar uses the Tambor.

Look in the NSS_*.cfg file for the clue.

thanks, didnt have access to me gameing rig (PC) when i posted that. gesed that thayed use there on files as thay have a seperat file.:oops:

[Beery]

Could someone who's using the CCIP crush depth mod confirm or refute a weird thing I just noticed?

I took out a Gar to see what would happen when I took her to crush depth. I took her down to 450ft and nothing - she took it fine. Then I tried to set my dive planes to dive to get her deeper but instead she started to surface. Basically I can't get this thing to sink.

I'm not sure if this is due to the mod anyway, as it doesn't seem to address the Gar (although the Tambor/Gar thing has me confused).

[Beery]

I just took out an s18 boat and the same thing happened - 450ft, no crush, although there were lights going out and glass smashing. I kept her at 450 for a minute or two then did a emergency blow.

Then I checked that the s18 zon file was the same as that of the crush depth mod and it's definitely the same as the one available now. Is there another file that I might be missing? The zon file is the only one that determines crush depth, right? Could it be that the game is still set to metres and we're assuming the crush depths are in feet? That's the only thing I can think of that would make an s18 boat get to 450ft (if 200 is 200m then I could probably take her another 150ft).

Now I'll test with the game's original zon files just in case something else is causing this.

[Jams79]

Dive button (D) only seems to take you to 330ft if you are lower than that you rise, either that or my crew are playing with me.

[Ducimus]

The zon file defines:

Hitponts
crash depth (crush depth)
Crash speed (rate at which your boat will crush or lose hull integrity when below crush depth)
rebound = unknown to me.


The acutal measurement type that defines the crash depth ive never fully understood. It seems to be neither in meters or feet. For example you could specify something like 385 or 410 crash depth, and in meters it came out to be around 285 meters.

[Beery]

Well, with the stock game I took an s18 out, took her down to 450ft. She got down there but after a few seconds water was splashing into the control room and after about a minute everything started going south. An emergency blow didn't do any good either.

Strangely enough, there was no sound of glass breaking or water gushing. Is that a known bug?

Next I took an s18 (unmodded) to 250ft - she held that depth with no problems for half an hour. Then I took her to 300ft, but she only reached that when things started going bad. I reckon I'd spent about six minutes under 250ft when she went out of control.

[Ducimus]

Well.

I think so.

Heres the deal. It goes back to crash speed. Default is 2. This slows down the rate at which a sub is crushed. It makes for some great gameplay mechanics because you can slow that crush rate WAAAAAYY down. from 2, to 0.1. Give the player a shallower crush depth and what you have is a semi realistic way a hull could take deep dive stresses. IE, a boat could dive REALLY DEEP once or twice, but after that it's hull was too fatigued. You coould stay below crush depth (and below a sonar cone) for 30 mins or so before forced to shallower depths.


it doesnt seem to work that way in SH4, and ill illustrate how i know.


Mod the MK 14 torpedo to have a 100% chance to loop. Then go to the torpedo practice scenario in the sub school. Allow yourself to get hit. If you surface right away, or get hit on the surface, you can probably keep the boat afloat. Now back it up into shallow water.. say.. 40-50 feet and let the boat dive.
You'll notice a few things:

a.) even though the hit compartment has been pumped dry it still takes on water. (presumably becaus theres a hull in the pressurehull) Fair enough.

But the problem comes with

B.) What you also notice is a domino effect. Even totally unrelated/undamged compartment's will basically fold in and start taking damage and flood. In deep water its understandable, but youll see this behavior even when theres barely enough water to cover the top of the conning tower.

[CyberOps]

is there anyway to set the max depth to lets say 1500 feet ?

Already tried that in the cfg files but for some reason when im at like 890 feet then there is damage. Or do i have to edit other files to ?

[Ducimus]

>>is there anyway to set the max depth to lets say 1500 feet ?

If past experience with SH3 is any indictor.

Probably not. I think at about 500 meters, the player sub stops being rendered. You wont crush, but you wont rise. YOu wont go forward, or backward. Your simply stuck.


ON a side note, in SH3, deep charges will not go down any deeper then 300 meters. At the 300 meter line they just POOF. Since SH4 is based on SH3, it isnt a far stretch to assume this limitation is still there. So basically. going that deep is just one big honking fat cheat.

[Beery]

ON a side note, in SH3, deep charges will not go down any deeper then 300 meters. At the 300 meter line they just POOF. Since SH4 is based on SH3, it isnt a far stretch to assume this limitation is still there. So basically. going that deep is just one big honking fat cheat.

Usually the maximum depth settings that the Allies would set a DC to were a lot shallower than German boats could dive. From what I've read the Allies didn't find out how deep German U-boats could go until around 1943-44 (and then they could hardly believe it because their standard maximum settings had been around 100m because they didn't believe it was possible for subs to go much lower). In fact, in order for depth charges to be realistic they ought to go poof at even shallower depths than 300m. Basically if a submarine got below 100m it was safe unless its pursuers could hear it and wait it out until it had to surface. Far from being a cheat, going under the enemy's maximum depth charge settings was something that German commanders relied upon.

In fact I tried to find a way to mod a 100m limit because escorts in SH3 could hit a U-boat with pinpoint accuracy at 250m. Personally I doubt that any real U-boat was ever destroyed by depth charges below 100m. I reckon the chance of hitting a manoeuvring target with a free-falling object through 100m of a dense medium that may have strong currents is for all intents and purposes nil. These charges had to get within a few feet of a U-boat's pressure hull in order to be effective. I just don't see it happening, especially when the Allies were setting their DCs to 100m or less.

[CyberOps]

yeah that would be cool a depth charge mod and max it at 100 m would be great to have that.

Still i tried different max depth settings but for some reason at a certain point the boat just keeps on diving and it wont hold or surface.

[Ducimus]

Usually the maximum depth settings that the Allies would set a DC to were a lot shallower than German boats could dive.

I'm WELL aware of that. The fact remains, that at below 300 meters, you are essentually invulnerable.

By default, all sensors are cut off at 300 meters. Sonar and hydrophones. So are all means of being able to damamge the player's sub. Now you could mod those to go deeper if you wanted to, but depth charges were hardcoded. Now ive tried to get depth charges to explode randomly by a certain depth. Unfortunatly it just wont work that way. Fiddle with the variables all you want, but if the AI thinks your at a certain depth, thats what it will set them at, an they have a chance to damage you - until you hit the 300 meter barrier.


You can change hedgehogs to explode randomly in a given depth range, but thats not quite the same thing. It does give a rather cool effect though. For kicks you can set all those hedge hog charges to act as mini depth charges and explode randomly within 50 meters after a 100 meter plunge if you wanted to. Kind of a shame depth charges aren't quite so cooperative.

In fact I tried to find a way to mod a 100m limit because escorts in SH3 could hit a U-boat with pinpoint accuracy at 250m.

Yea i was there for the pin point drop thread. Alot about the AI has been learned since then. Getting rid of pinpoint drops is so easy its childsplay. Ive spent countless hours over the last two years working with it off and on. Once you understand the variables, its easy to make the AI as aggressive or as passive, or as accurate or as not so accurate as you want.

[Beery]

Usually the maximum depth settings that the Allies would set a DC to were a lot shallower than German boats could dive.

I'm WELL aware of that. The fact remains, that at below 300 meters, you are essentually invulnerable.

That's my point - you should be. I think there's no way that any sub at 300m could be heard or attacked using 1940s equipment, unless the sub was doing something incredibly stupid, like running at full speed..

[CyberOps]

yeah but can you make it so all the subs in the game can goto 300 meters ?

[Beery]

yeah but can you make it so all the subs in the game can goto 300 meters ?

I could. The question is, in SH4 why would I want to? No US sub could go that deep.

[CyberOps]

Well i would love to use it :) maybe others to ?

[Ducimus]

My overall point is, why would you want to? What fun is that? In SH3 i got a kick out of the notion of a VIIC/41 that could go that deep, but what ruined the fun to me, was the fact that it made the game too easy. WHen you have a predictable and reliable pattern of escape, (dive to 300 meters, go to ahead slow, and advance TC tell they go away) the game gets dull.

Im a firm beleiver in, "the payoff" :88)

[CyberOps]

yeah but for some it is fun to dive that deep, so i still hope someone can make it happen.

[Sailor Steve]

My overall point is, why would you want to? What fun is that? In SH3 i got a kick out of the notion of a VIIC/41 that could go that deep, but what ruined the fun to me, was the fact that it made the game too easy. WHen you have a predictable and reliable pattern of escape, (dive to 300 meters, go to ahead slow, and advance TC tell they go away) the game gets dull.

Im a firm beleiver in, "the payoff" :88)
I agree; that's why I'm a big fan of TimeTraveller's "Crush Depth Randomizer" for SH3. I hope one shows up for SH4 sometime.

[castorp345]

I'm a big fan of TimeTraveller's "Crush Depth Randomizer" for SH3. I hope one shows up for SH4 sometime.

in the interim, you can use tt's sh3 inspector to acheive the same result (it also has a crush depth randomizer)... just copy the folder for the sub in question over to sh3's submarine directory, run inspector and randomize your crush depth, then copy the files back to sh4's directory structure.
et voila!

[Spytrx]

great job

thank you for your work

[Meridian]

Just took your advice and used TT's Crush Depth Tool to take a look at the default and CCIP's modifications. I just use the Tambor as an example.

I think CCIP's value for the crush depth is showing 150 in TT's SH3 Crush Depth, now i'm not totally certain but I thought these values were in Meters. So I loaded up the Midway training mission and took the sub down to 350ft & sat there. I let 30 mins of accelerated time go by and no damage.

I then opened the files up again in TT's program and changed the crush depth to 76m, 250ft, which is what I believe the correct value is. Did the same thing again in the mission but this time at 240ft, still no damage. Then again at 270 ft, this time all hell breaks lose and my sub plummets to the sea bed.

Can someone confirm these values and see if i'm either right or weather I screwed up somewhere. The reason I started messing around with the values was i'm using the FTT mod which has the battery fix incorporated so I went back to compare the values. I think FTT has a value of 115 for the Tambor.

Thanks guys.

[U-Bones]

Just took your advice and used TT's Crush Depth Tool to take a look at the default and CCIP's modifications. I just use the Tambor as an example.

I think CCIP's value for the crush depth is showing 150 in TT's SH3 Crush Depth, now i'm not totally certain but I thought these values were in Meters. So I loaded up the Midway training mission and took the sub down to 350ft & sat there. I let 30 mins of accelerated time go by and no damage.

I then opened the files up again in TT's program and changed the crush depth to 76m, 250ft, which is what I believe the correct value is. Did the same thing again in the mission but this time at 240ft, still no damage. Then again at 270 ft, this time all hell breaks lose and my sub plummets to the sea bed.

Can someone confirm these values and see if i'm either right or weather I screwed up somewhere. The reason I started messing around with the values was i'm using the FTT mod which has the battery fix incorporated so I went back to compare the values. I think FTT has a value of 115 for the Tambor.

Thanks guys.

I think you are correct on the use of meters for crash depth.

For a test depth of 76 meters, ~115 would be correct for crash depth since test was about 2/3 of design, and design was usually very conservative.

Ideally, I would like to see 76m + (random between 76/5 - 76/2), with slow crash speed inflicted beyond that point.

Unfortunately, we have a hard number, but at least crash speed allows a slide from slow crush to instant implode.

[Meridian]

No, I meant the depth at which the hull starts to implode. The original value I had was 115, which works out at 377.296588ft. The value I have for the Tambor now is 76, which equates more to the actual max dive depth of 250ft.

If the value in CCIP's mod is 150 and that value is in meters then the sub won't start to break up until it hits 492ft.

[U-Bones]

No, I meant the depth at which the hull starts to implode. The original value I had was 115, which works out at 377.296588ft. The value I have for the Tambor now is 76, which equates more to the actual max dive depth of 250ft.

If the value in CCIP's mod is 150 and that value is in meters then the sub won't start to break up until it hits 492ft.

250 was NOT the max dive depth of the Tambor, it was the test depth, which was 2/3 of design depth, which was conservative if you happened to get a good quality hull ;) There are no known instances of undamaged hulls failing at test depth.

Which is why you have cases of some subs reaching almost double test depths. On the other hand, it is also probably why we never heard from some subs again.

Again, there is a pretty good basis for using 115 for the Tambor.

[Meridian]

Ahhhhh, OK, makes sense now. Back to the drawing board to re-adjust the depths again.

Thanks for the info, just went back and tweaked all the subs from FTT for more accurate depths from this site http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/

Used TT's Tweaker to adjust the depths and noticed that the CFG files for the subs still had the depths set to default which were lower than the ZON files so I changed those as well.

Gonna go see what else I can mess with now.

[Bilge_Rat]

On the use of test depth, keep in mind that the U.S. Navy was very conservative, for example the Balao class had a test depth of 400 feet, but according to Silent Victory could survive a dive of 800 feet or 2 times test depth.

In 1969, a Balao class, USS Chopper accidently dove to 1,000 feet or 2.5 times test depth and survived, but the hull was badly damaged and the boat was subsequently decommissioned.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Qu...8/deepdive.htm (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/9928/deepdive.htm)

[Beery]

I think CCIP's value for the crush depth is showing 150 in TT's SH3 Crush Depth, now i'm not totally certain but I thought these values were in Meters. So I loaded up the Midway training mission and took the sub down to 350ft & sat there. I let 30 mins of accelerated time go by and no damage.

I tested all the submarines and I came to the same conclusion. I posted in this thread earlier but no one else seemed worried about it. I haven't heard from CCIP in a while though - I think he may be on vacation. I guess we could PM him.

If I to get to crush depth on purpose using this mod, the only sub that has problems is the s18. All the other boats go to 450ft with no problems. If someone else could confirm this that would be great. Maybe all these boats could go to 450ft? Also, how can we get the boats lower than 450ft? I'd like to really test these crush depths.

[U-Bones]

Also, how can we get the boats lower than 450ft? I'd like to really test these crush depths.
You can always put planes on dive... and let the helmsman call out the depths below 450.

[Beery]

Also, how can we get the boats lower than 450ft? I'd like to really test these crush depths.
You can always put planes on dive... and let the helmsman call out the depths below 450.

I've put the planes on dive. The boat stops at 450ft. It won't go lower.

[Meridian]

Could that be to do with the CFG file? As I mentioned earlier, the values in there were set lower than in the ZON files and with TT's tool if you set the depth in the ZON it warns you that you still won't be able to dive past that depth as the CFG file has a lower value.

I've changed all the depths in mine now so i'm off to do some testing.

Beery: The crush depth for the S-18 is set at 115 meters - 377 feet in CCIP's mod.

EDIT: Here are the figures I have mine set at now in METERS:

Balao = 182m - 597 feet
Gato = 137m - 449 feet
Porpoise = 114m - 374 feet
S-18 = 91m - 298 feet
Salmon = 114m - 374 feet
Sargo = 114m - 374 feet
Tambor = 114m - 374 feet

[U-Bones]

Also, how can we get the boats lower than 450ft? I'd like to really test these crush depths.
You can always put planes on dive... and let the helmsman call out the depths below 450.
I've put the planes on dive. The boat stops at 450ft. It won't go lower.
WOW ! I have seen 1104 ft, of course it was after I broke some welds ;)

I also note that the max depth in some of the sub nss_*.cfg files are set to 100 meters which is being ignored.

[Meridian]

Well so far looks good. Just took the Balao down to 550 feet and cruised along the bottom. Bloody dark there though, anyone got a Torch mod I can strap to the front of the sub. :D

[Beery]

Could that be to do with the CFG file? As I mentioned earlier, the values in there were set lower than in the ZON files and with TT's tool if you set the depth in the ZON it warns you that you still won't be able to dive past that depth as the CFG file has a lower value.

Thanks. I'm not quite sure I'm following what you're saying, but I'll check the cfg settings out.

[edit] I just checked those out. I don't see why they'd put a hard stop on the sub at 450ft. That's about 150m - there doesn't seem to be anything in the cfg file relating to 150 or 450.

[Meridian]

Well here's my modifed files if anyone wants to give them a go. They incorporate the battery fix too posted by CCIP.

http://hosted.filefront.com/Meridian1a/

[Meridian]

I just checked those out. I don't see why they'd put a hard stop on the sub at 450ft. That's about 150m - there doesn't seem to be anything in the cfg file relating to 150 or 450.

For the S-18 for example in the [Properties] section it reads "MaxDepth=61;meters" That's 200 feet.

[Beery]

I just checked those out. I don't see why they'd put a hard stop on the sub at 450ft. That's about 150m - there doesn't seem to be anything in the cfg file relating to 150 or 450.

For the S-18 for example in the [Properties] section it reads "MaxDepth=61;meters" That's 200 feet.

Yeah, but why would that stop my sub at 450ft? I set the dive planes to dive and went ahead flank and she just wouldn't go lower. Anyway, as I recall, in SH3 the cfg files were just there for reference purposes. They didn't have any in-game effect. Maybe that's changed with SH4, but maybe not.

[Meridian]

Well i'm still fairly new to all this so i'll go and give the S-18 a test drive. But I did just take the Balao down to 550 with my modded files and that went OK.

I was just going by TT's Crush Depth Tool, which informed me after I changed the depth to say 300, that the sub still won't go below that depth as the value in the CFG file is say 100.

I'll go do some testing on the S-18 and see what happens.

Just tried on the S-18 and it levelled itself out at 290 feet. hmm.

[Beery]

I was just going by TT's Crush Depth Tool, which informed me after I changed the depth to say 300, that the sub still won't go below that depth as the value in the CFG file is say 100...

Are you saying the sub won't go below 100, or 300?

I've changed the depth in the zon files to 600 and left the cfg files alone but it still stops at 450. Are you saying the cfg files need to have their max depth adjusted so that they're greater than the zon file settings?

[Meridian]

I just changed the value in the CFG file for the S-18 to a silly value, ie 200, and it just flew past 300 feet and blew apart a few minutes later. The value in the CFG is all I changed from my original values.

OK, lets see if I can explain this right. If you set the depth in the ZON file to 300, but the value in the CFG is 100, it won't go below 100, that's what I just found out with the S-18.

[Beery]

I just changed the value in the CFG file for the S-18 to a silly value, ie 200, and it just flew past 300 feet and blew apart a few minutes later. The value in the CFG is all I changed from my original values.

Hmm. I guess that's proof that the cfg file does have an effect. :yep:

What value was that - the max depth value or the crash depth value?

[Meridian]

It was the Max depth value I just changed. I've just gone through all the sub CFG files and added 10 to each value I had previously, as before they were the same as the value I put in the ZON files.

I think the Crash depth value in the CFG file is the depth the sub will try to level out at if you order a crash dive. That's another test for later on though, I need a coffee.

Just uploaded a newer version with the revised CFG files. Get them here.

http://hosted.filefront.com/Meridian1a/

[Beery]

It was the Max depth value I just changed. I've just gone through all the sub CFG files and added 10 to each value I had previously, as before they were the same as the value I put in the ZON files.

I just did a test, setting 20 as Max Depth in the Balao's cfg file. Sure enough the sub refused to go any deeper than just over 60ft (20m). So this is one problem figured out - any mod that increases crush depth needs to also increase Max Depth in the cfg files, otherwise the game simply won't allow players to go lower.

[Meridian]

Yep, exactly. I think the value in the CFG was put there as a failsafe to stop players going past the crush depth, which kinda takes the fun out of it a little. That's why i just added a value of 10 to all the CFG files on top of the actual Crush Depth value in the ZON file, maybe I should make it higher, I dunno though.

[Beery]

Yep, exactly. I think the value in the CFG was put there as a failsafe to stop players going past the crush depth, which kinda takes the fun out of it a little. That's why i just added a value of 10 to all the CFG files on top of the actual Crush Depth value in the ZON file, maybe I should make it higher, I dunno though.

The thing we have to be careful of is that the Max Depth setting may have some effect on the zon file. For example if the cfg file's Max Depth is set to 1000 and the zon file's crush depth is set to 200 it might raise the speed at which damage happens when we're deeper than the crush depth. I doubt that this would be the case but I've seen stranger things in SH3's coding.

Anyway, now I have the answer to the problem I was seeing - some of the increased crush depth mod's crush depths were set so that the sub would have no ill effects when I dived to the Max Depth setting. I had been expecting to be able to dive beyond the crush depth.

[U-Bones]

Yep, exactly. I think the value in the CFG was put there as a failsafe to stop players going past the crush depth, which kinda takes the fun out of it a little. That's why i just added a value of 10 to all the CFG files on top of the actual Crush Depth value in the ZON file, maybe I should make it higher, I dunno though.
The thing we have to be careful of is that the Max Depth setting may have some effect on the zon file. For example if the cfg file's Max Depth is set to 1000 and the zon file's crush depth is set to 200 it might raise the speed at which damage happens when we're deeper than the crush depth. I doubt that this would be the case but I've seen stranger things in SH3's coding.

Anyway, now I have the answer to the problem I was seeing - some of the increased crush depth mod's crush depths were set so that the sub would have no ill effects when I dived to the Max Depth setting. I had been expecting to be able to dive beyond the crush depth.

The speed at which damage happens (past crush depth) is in the zon file Crash Speed... 2 is stock and fast, IIRC it was as low as .02 in some of the SH3 mods....

[Beery]

Okay, I just doubled all the mod's Max Depth figures. Now I'm able to get down to all the crush depths. Phew - that's a load off my mind. I'd been thinking that there either must be something wrong with my game or with the mod. I just tested the Balao and it gets down to about 800ft (250m) before bad things start to happen, which seems right to me.

[Meridian]

800 feet, really :o. I took all my figures from here when I adjusted my depths http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/balao-class.html. Dont know how accurate they are but they are all I had to work with at the time.

[Beery]

800 feet, really :o. I took all my figures from here when I adjusted my depths http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/balao-class.html. Dont know how accurate they are but they are all I had to work with at the time.

If they're listing 600ft as 'emergency depth' then they're basically saying that the sub was thought to be safe to at least that depth. The thing about crush depths is that it was impossible to calculate or test them perfectly, so they had to pick an arbitrary figure based on what amounted to an engineer's best guess. Often the boats survived dives that went significantly deeper than the emergency depth.

[Bilge_Rat]

On the issue of test depth again, I just read about the USS Haddock, a Gato class with a test depth of 300 feet.

In 1943, it was driven down to 415 feet by an escort. At that depth, the captain suddenly saw the chart table in the conning tower move inward. He ordered everyone below, but found that the hatch was warped and could not be closed. They had to use a sledgehammer to bang it back in shape.

When they got back to port, the Yard came to the conclusion that the way the Gatos were designed and built, that the conning tower was weaker than the remaining pressure hull.

[Meridian]

If they're listing 600ft as 'emergency depth' then they're basically saying that the sub was thought to be safe to at least that depth. The thing about crush depths is that it was impossible to calculate or test them perfectly, so they had to pick an arbitrary figure based on what amounted to an engineer's best guess. Often the boats survived dives that went significantly deeper than the emergency depth.

I actually thought they were saying it should be safe to at least 400 but in an emergency it should be OK to 600. That's why I thought 800 was pushing it a bit.

So I took U-Bones advice and took all the basic figures and added a third of that value to it. Hence why the Balao in mine comes up at 597.

[CaptainKobuk]

Whatever extra depth we can fairly achieve i think is great to have. I'm running a Sargo regularly at 350 feet over long periods of time using a current depth MOD that's now on the Mod list.

I recently was depth charged and sunk. And did not crush until almost 600 feet in the Sargo. I believe this MOD set it's MaxDepth=150;meters

But it will take damage at 400 feet deep during a long cruise.

I think perhaps a goal could be to set the Baleo to cruise safely at 450 feet deep. And make a way to run it deeper to escape depth charges. For awhile at 600 feet sounds reasonable. I forget what the German XXI could run at. They could possibly cruise at 300 meters unless i'm not remembering right.

[U-Bones]

If they're listing 600ft as 'emergency depth' then they're basically saying that the sub was thought to be safe to at least that depth. The thing about crush depths is that it was impossible to calculate or test them perfectly, so they had to pick an arbitrary figure based on what amounted to an engineer's best guess. Often the boats survived dives that went significantly deeper than the emergency depth.
I actually thought they were saying it should be safe to at least 400 but in an emergency it should be OK to 600. That's why I thought 800 was pushing it a bit.

So I took U-Bones advice and took all the basic figures and added a third of that value to it. Hence why the Balao in mine comes up at 597.
Actually it should be half-again of test.

Test Depth: Actually tested in trials, US uses 2/3 of design, Brit 4/7
Design Depth: Conservative calculation intended to be less than crush.
Crush Depth: Inaccurate but unprovable calculation.

Maximum Operating Depth: Arbitrary, never exceeded under any circumstance depth. I do not know if this was more or less than design depth, or what the wartime formula is. In peacetime Test Depth is the MOD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_depth_ratings

[Probex]

To calculate Crush Depth for Minitweaker try this:


X=Y*(dcd/ccd)


Where:


X= new minitweaker crash depth value

Y= stock minitweaker crash depth value

ccd= current crush depth in feet or metres (you have to test each sub crush depth exactly to know this number)

dcd= desired crush depth


eg.

Porpoise Class

ccd=355 ft
Y=150 X=150*(500/355)

X=211


Ans: Enter 211 in Minitweaker to obtain a 500ft crush depth.



Remember that X will be a bit different for each sub even if the manual states that they all crush at the same depth.




2/3 of the test depth also simply means - Test Depth * 1.5 = crush depth




What is a crAsh depth anyway? lol


Good Luck

[Beery]

What is a crAsh depth anyway? lol

Yeah, I thought it was a typo at first too. Crash depth is the depth a sub dives to after being ordered to crash dive.

[flyingdane]

My friend that lives in Muskogee Oklahoma sent this pic to me, Its from the control room in the USS BATFISH a balao class sub and as you can see it go's to 800ft.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/flyingdane/IMG_0020.jpg

[flyingdane]

And heres the shallow depth gauge, only go's to 160ft.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/flyingdane/IMG_0018.jpg

[Probex]

What is a crAsh depth anyway? lol
Yeah, I thought it was a typo at first too. Crash depth is the depth a sub dives to after being ordered to crash dive.


I don't think so, lol

I am quite sure that it IS a typo. That value clearly affects the CRUSH depth, hence my entire post about calculating the right number to use with minitweaker.
I know I am being a bit mean. Whoever made the tweak files, Great Job!


S!

[Jungman]

*(ccd/dcd)

Should that be upside down? Current Crush Depth / Desired Crush Depth > 1 for a deeper crush. ccd = 355 feet stock desired is 500 feet. 355/500 is <1.:hmm:

[Probex]

OH yeah, lol


It was late :oops:

[clayp]

How do install this crush depth mod???......

[Probex]

Well, it's not really an issue of installation but rather of modding the submarine .zon files.


The game has a built in crush depth of Test Depth * 1.5 for each sub.


So the stock crush depths should be:

S18 - 295'
Porpoise - 355'
Salmon - 370'
Sargo - 370'
Tambor - 370'
Gato - 440'
Balao - 590'



so, for example you can take the Porpoise down to 340 and hold it there forever if you are undamaged. That is a LOT lower than the test depth of 240'


I don't even see the need to increase the crush depths. If this game modelled stress over time, then it would be different.



In case of the Balao, you can't even dive it to it's crush depth. The subs don't seem to want to dive much below 500'.

[clayp]

Ok I'll forget it then I dont know how to mod anything..:D The dive gauge only goes to 165',how do you go lower?

[U-Bones]

I don't even see the need to increase the crush depths. If this game modelled stress over time, then it would be different.

It is funny you say there is no need to increase the depths - it was exactly the conclusion I made after a lot of testing. But unlike you, I say that thinking that stress over time IS modeled.

Stress over time is modeled in the zon file with Crash Speed. The stock number of 2 is very fast. Using .02 instead will definately model stress over time. There is likely a happy middle ground.

Also, I do not belive the game models the 1.5 exactly. It starts applying damage at about .75 of what is listed in Crash Depth, which is closer to padding it x 1.3.

I have looked at this a fair bit in the Crash Speed thread
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111500

However, if one wanted a submarine that simply failed somewhere slightly below crash, they would want to put ~1.4 x desired pop depth with a very fast crash speed. Much like CCIP has done here. Perfectly acceptable.

However, what one gains with the slower crush version, is the added gameplay stress if you find yourself damaged and hunted and unable to go deep.

I will probably release both a Pop and Crush version after 1.2 is out.

[U-Bones]

Ok I'll forget it then I dont know how to mod anything..:D The dive gauge only goes to 165',how do you go lower?

If you click under the dial (in the rubber looking texture) it will change to a 450 foot gauge. All three of the dials have two modes.

[clayp]

Ok I'll forget it then I dont know how to mod anything..:D The dive gauge only goes to 165',how do you go lower?

If you click under the dial (in the rubber looking texture) it will change to a 450 foot gauge. All three of the dials have two modes.

Thank you sir.....:D

[Probex]

So, is it not true that once "committed" to "crushing", the slow speed setting only delays the time until you are crushed even if you meanwhile go to periscope depth?

Someone posted that observation earlier. I haven't personally tested that yet.

[U-Bones]

So, is it not true that once "committed" to "crushing", the slow speed setting only delays the time until you are crushed even if you meanwhile go to periscope depth?

Someone posted that observation earlier. I haven't personally tested that yet.

Yes - once the damage from going too deep starts, the flag is not reset until you surface. It does slow down closer to the surface, but... you have to surface to stop it.

I would prefer it simply adjust the cruch depth... and give relief when you go up far enough, but no such luck.

[t0maz]

Unfortunatly *.zon files was modified in patch 1.2 :huh:

[CCIP]

Correct. I'm looking into whether the changes are going to be needed again...

[letterboy1]

Looking forward to a new JSGME version of the crush depth mod. I accidentally thought that the previous version was still compatible, but alas it isn't so I had to uninstall it. Oh well, I'll stay shallow in the meantime. Shallow and silent.

[Mechman]

One of the handiest micro-mods available. Can't wait for the 1.2 version

[castorp345]

wow.
bumped from the deep after two years...
:yeah: