Ice-penetrating sonobuoys?

[fatty]

I am preparing a paper on Arctic sovereignty patrols. I have found what I guess is a patent for air-delivered, ice-penetrating sonobuoys. I found a bibliography referencing Barrette, J. Rene and John Courtenay Lewis. “Ice-penetrating Sonobuoy System Breaks the High Arctic Barrier,” Sea Technology 29(10):63-67 October 1988 however I do not have access to this article.

I am curious, does anyone know if air-delivered, ice-penetrating sonobuoys really exist? How well could/do they work? Have they ever been deployed in any military?

EDIT: Damn, I meant to post this in general topics. Could a mod please move? Thanks.

[Bort]

I looked this up in the most recent edition of Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet, apparently there was a program underway when the Cold War ended that utilized a sonobouy with a lithium tip, which could melt through ice up to 10 feet thick. I would imagine it ended up being canceled though.:hmm:

[fatty]

I looked this up in the most recent edition of Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet, apparently there was a program underway when the Cold War ended that utilized a sonobouy with a lithium tip, which could melt through ice up to 10 feet thick. I would imagine it ended up being canceled though.:hmm:

Interesting, thanks for the info! I supposed we'd need to come up with some ice-penetrating torpedos to make those sonobuoys worth it ;)

[ASWnut101]

Still, I'd think that it would be hard for the sonobuoy to penetrate correctly. Won't it tumble or break when it hits the surface of the ice?

[Bort]

My guess is that it was either meant to be parachute retarded, or that it was designed in such a way that it would fall straight down, with a pointed tip.

[XabbaRus]

So what else an ice melting torpedo?

[ASWnut101]

Couldn't you just naplam the ice? Then drop the torp throught the hole?

[jason taylor]

Couldn't you just naplam the ice? Then drop the torp throught the hole?

You could but that would take space in the payload away from torpedos.

[jason taylor]

I looked this up in the most recent edition of Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet, apparently there was a program underway when the Cold War ended that utilized a sonobouy with a lithium tip, which could melt through ice up to 10 feet thick. I would imagine it ended up being canceled though.:hmm:
Interesting, thanks for the info! I supposed we'd need to come up with some ice-penetrating torpedos to make those sonobuoys worth it ;)

I suppose you could vector friendly subs to a contact via satilite. You don't have to attack by air.

[jason taylor]

By the way, how well does sound penetrate ice? Could sonobuoys simply be placed on the surface?

[ASWnut101]

Sound penetrates ice as good as water goes through four feet of steel. It doesn't work. Period.


Even if you did hear above the noise of the weather, you'd just hear the ice.

[pitchlock]

I tested this program. We droped hundreds of these bouys and they all schattered on impact. Not one of them survived the deployment on the ice. It was droped from a P-3C Orion aircraft.

Fly Navy
P-3 Flight Engineer

[fatty]

I tested this program. We droped hundreds of these bouys and they all schattered on impact. Not one of them survived the deployment on the ice. It was droped from a P-3C Orion aircraft.

Fly Navy
P-3 Flight Engineer

That is a really neat bit of info, thank you! Unfortunately the magazine with my paper has already gone to print :cry:

And hey, welcome to SUBSIM :up:

[Fish]

I tested this program. We droped hundreds of these bouys and they all schattered on impact. Not one of them survived the deployment on the ice. It was droped from a P-3C Orion aircraft.

Fly Navy
P-3 Flight Engineer

You mean DW, when you talk about 'this program'?
I tested the sonabuoys long time ago, and they penetrated ice as they penetrated water.

PS: Just tested 104 and they still penetrate.

[pitchlock]

I tested this program. We droped hundreds of these bouys and they all schattered on impact. Not one of them survived the deployment on the ice. It was droped from a P-3C Orion aircraft.

Fly Navy
P-3 Flight Engineer

You mean DW, when you talk about 'this program'?
I tested the sonabuoys long time ago, and they penetrated ice as they penetrated water.

PS: Just tested 104 and they still penetrate.

No in real life. I was great watching a grown man cry when his million dollar bouy smashed against the ice. We would test them up in the greenland area on the ice shelf in the winter time. When we would return from our missions back to iceland we would help out and do the drops for them.

[TLAM Strike]

If they did get one of the ice melting super bouys to work a MPA problay could just have dropped a nuclear bomb on the target. Well I mean back in the Cold War they could have... ;)

[SeaQueen]

If they did get one of the ice melting super bouys to work a MPA problay could just have dropped a nuclear bomb on the target. Well I mean back in the Cold War they could have... ;)

You know... nuclear weapons aren't all they're cracked up to be. It's really surprising how hardened submarines are to nuclear attack.

[pitchlock]

If they did get one of the ice melting super bouys to work a MPA problay could just have dropped a nuclear bomb on the target. Well I mean back in the Cold War they could have... ;)

You know... nuclear weapons aren't all they're cracked up to be. It's really surprising how hardened submarines are to nuclear attack.
Not an underwater nuke attack. It will crush that sub.

[TLAM Strike]

If they did get one of the ice melting super bouys to work a MPA problay could just have dropped a nuclear bomb on the target. Well I mean back in the Cold War they could have... ;)

You know... nuclear weapons aren't all they're cracked up to be. It's really surprising how hardened submarines are to nuclear attack.

Yea I am kinda familure with how hard a nuclear submarine is to kill with a Nuc weapon (sea pressure reducing the blast and all that.) I was saying blowing a big hole in the ice would not only allow the possablity of a kill but allow other attacks with torpedoes latter on.

BTW I was reading Navy SEALs- A History Pt. II: The Vietnam Years by Kevin Dockery and it mentioned 'Project: Iceskate' where they put some UDT/SEAL guys on a USCG Icebreaker sent them up north of Alaska then used some explosives to blow giant holes up through the ice as experiments to see if an explosive charge for submarines that need to make an emergancy surface was practical. Well the amount of explosives they used was only expected to make a whole sufficent for the sail but it blew a hole big enugph for a whole sub to surface through. :rock:

[SeaQueen]

Not an underwater nuke attack. It will crush that sub.

It might crush a sub. Do you think we went through the whole Cold War under dire threat of nuclear attack and engineers didn't expend a lot of thought on how to make submarines more survivable against nuclear attack? Submarines are interesting because in some respects they're incredibly tough, and in others they're incredibly fragile. It's not necessarily the case that a sub caught up in a nuclear blast is done for.

[SeaQueen]

Depending on where they set the charge it doesn't surprise me. I used to know a SEAL from one of the SDV Teams. Those guys get all kinds of weird missions. If I was in the SEALs, I'd want to be in the SDV Teams because they're the most technical and I think they also get the most unique assignments. Some of the SEAL teams get a lot of stuff that SF or Rangers can also do, but the SDV Teams are a truely unique capability. I'm all about weird stuff.

Yea I am kinda familure with how hard a nuclear submarine is to kill with a Nuc weapon (sea pressure reducing the blast and all that.) I was saying blowing a big hole in the ice would not only allow the possablity of a kill but allow other attacks with torpedoes latter on.

BTW I was reading Navy SEALs- A History Pt. II: The Vietnam Years by Kevin Dockery and it mentioned 'Project: Iceskate' where they put some UDT/SEAL guys on a USCG Icebreaker sent them up north of Alaska then used some explosives to blow giant holes up through the ice as experiments to see if an explosive charge for submarines that need to make an emergancy surface was practical. Well the amount of explosives they used was only expected to make a whole sufficent for the sail but it blew a hole big enugph for a whole sub to surface through. :rock:

[pitchlock]

Not an underwater nuke attack. It will crush that sub.

It might crush a sub. Do you think we went through the whole Cold War under dire threat of nuclear attack and engineers didn't expend a lot of thought on how to make submarines more survivable against nuclear attack? Submarines are interesting because in some respects they're incredibly tough, and in others they're incredibly fragile. It's not necessarily the case that a sub caught up in a nuclear blast is done for.
Well I have done many Nuke attack training missions. It was to stop a nuke attack from an enemy sub. You might not know the exact location of the sub, but it would damage them from completing their mission.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

It might crush a sub. Do you think we went through the whole Cold War under dire threat of nuclear attack and engineers didn't expend a lot of thought on how to make submarines more survivable against nuclear attack? Submarines are interesting because in some respects they're incredibly tough, and in others they're incredibly fragile. It's not necessarily the case that a sub caught up in a nuclear blast is done for.

Lucky for me the subroc was removed from inventory by the time I got to a submarine. From the older guys who actually carried the thing they called it a "1 shot 2 kill weapon" meaning that yeah.. it will probably kill the other guy but the hydrostatic blast wave would kill you as well. As they explained it, they shoot the weapon at the approximate area of the target (you don't have to be dead on), turn 180 degrees, and go as fast as you can. Unfortunately, you could not move fast enough to get out of the kill zone even if shot to maximum range. The reason you went 180 from it was to minimize exposed surface area (smallest area is either bow on or stern on) and hope and pray that the shockwave didn't cave the stern in.

That was why they got rid of the things. It was basically a suicide weapon.

What a bummer way to get the bad guy.

[SeaQueen]

Well I have done many Nuke attack training missions. It was to stop a nuke attack from an enemy sub. You might not know the exact location of the sub, but it would damage them from completing their mission.

A mission kill is a different thing from a catastrophic kill, though.

[pitchlock]

Well I have done many Nuke attack training missions. It was to stop a nuke attack from an enemy sub. You might not know the exact location of the sub, but it would damage them from completing their mission.

A mission kill is a different thing from a catastrophic kill, though.
If it stops the enemy from launching then we win

[TLAM Strike]

It might crush a sub. Do you think we went through the whole Cold War under dire threat of nuclear attack and engineers didn't expend a lot of thought on how to make submarines more survivable against nuclear attack? Submarines are interesting because in some respects they're incredibly tough, and in others they're incredibly fragile. It's not necessarily the case that a sub caught up in a nuclear blast is done for.

Lucky for me the subroc was removed from inventory by the time I got to a submarine. From the older guys who actually carried the thing they called it a "1 shot 2 kill weapon" meaning that yeah.. it will probably kill the other guy but the hydrostatic blast wave would kill you as well. As they explained it, they shoot the weapon at the approximate area of the target (you don't have to be dead on), turn 180 degrees, and go as fast as you can. Unfortunately, you could not move fast enough to get out of the kill zone even if shot to maximum range. The reason you went 180 from it was to minimize exposed surface area (smallest area is either bow on or stern on) and hope and pray that the shockwave didn't cave the stern in.

That was why they got rid of the things. It was basically a suicide weapon.

What a bummer way to get the bad guy.

Your thinking of the 'Astor' torpedo I think. A UUM-44 should have put the warhead well out side of the range required to do damage to the launching sub if fired at near max range.