Difference between SH3 and SH4?

[Spin Doctor]

Salute all

Having been totally into SH3 when it first apperared, I eventually got a little weary of the sameness of the missions and a sort of lack of involvement so, eventually drifted away from the pack. Actually I haven't played in about a year or so I guess.

If I remember correctly, one of the things that bothered me was there was never a need to plan night attacks with no moon since the ships could always see you anyway. Their visual range was reduced somewhat at night, but not enough to make any difference in my opinion. While it was a very good sim, there were some other issues that kept it from being a really great one.

That said, I did love this sim and played it for a long time.

So with SH4 on the nerar horizon, what's going to be so different here than in Sh3? Other than eyecandy, I mean. I don't care about that. Gameplay is all that I'm concerned about. At the very least, I'd like the systems to work as historically documented. There was some definite laziness on this aspect in SH3.

If this is SH3 in a new dress, then I'll probably pass. No offense, but I don't need SH3.5. When you consider the major sub battles were in the Atlantic, I would imagine the developers would need to incorporate a lot of innovation to make the Pacific interesting, given the fairly light merchant traffic compared to the Atlantic. Having new subs in a new theater is nice and all, but at the end of the day, they all use the same dials, gages, optics and have the same mission. Campaign involvement is the only savior in the sim world, I think. Think EAW, panzer Elite, Mig Alley, Red Baron 3D, ya know? The campaign is what made these classics. I would like to see a new classic come out of the sim world and this has the potential as much as anything out there.

Thanks

[TDK1044]

If you're expecting SH4 to be radically different from SH3 then you should pass. It is after all based on the SH3 game engine.

The graphical look of the game is much improved, and the Devs certainly learned a lot from SH3, but in the end it is what it is....a much improved version of SH3 set in a US sub in the Pacific. :D

[KiwiVenge]

....a much improved version of SH3 set in a US sub in the Pacific. :D

I think what he is asking is how is it improved? Is it only graphics that have changed?
Personally I do not know the answer to his question or would offer one :)

[TDK1044]

I think he's a prime candidate for 'wait a few weeks after the release of the game and decide to purchase or not based on Forum feedback'.

[Spin Doctor]

"Much Improved, how" is indeed my question.

I've searched the forum for awhile and either I've missed them all, or there are no threads talking about specific improvements over SH3. I've read the generic marketing verbage, but I'd rather know what your guys think since you are the ones with the most experience with the sim.

I do appreciate TDK1044's response, but to say SH4 is "much improved" doesn't tell me anything.

Thanks

Edit: to say, you are right TDK. I did buy SH3 within hours of its release, but SH4 have to be a wait and see.

[trenken]

It seems the interface was a big focus this time around. They mention it in every interview. Sounds like they simplified quite a bit to try and draw players that may have been too scared to jump into a game with this kind of complexity. It's not known yet that if these changes will actually upset the hardcore sim fan though. But in every interview ive read, simplifying and streamlining the interface and the gameplay itself was a top priority.

I'm sure at this point that doing whatever you can to sell more copies is very important, otherwise we may never see SH5 if the game doesn't generate enough money for the company. I know SH3 only sold in the 6 figure range, don't know if that was in the lower or higher half though. Either way, that's not too bad for a sim, but when you consider how much money goes into making a game like this for 2 years, you would have to think that if they arent hitting the millions, then it's probably not generating a huge profit.

[Barkhorn1x]

....a much improved version of SH3 set in a US sub in the Pacific. :D

I think what he is asking is how is it improved? Is it only graphics that have changed?
Personally I do not know the answer to his question or would offer one :)

What we know - besides the graphics overhall - is;
- Double the radio traffic
- "missions" assigned while at sea
- the opportunity to take part in various historical battles

But still, much of the time you are going to travel to a patrol area to sink stuff. If that is boring to you then you should pass.

Barkhorn.

[Boris]

Well, the missions won't be the same old, same old boringness of grid clearing as in SH3.

You'll have commando drop offs, photo reckon, pilot rescue, specific targets etc. Mission objectives will also change during missions.

As for the ability to night attack, don't know how the AI will react. But it is moddable. GWX vastly improved this instance for SH3, allowing you to get closer than 1km to enemy ships in some cases... being able to slip past the escorts and into a convoy on the surface.

[Spin Doctor]

Thanks for the tip Boris. I've been thinking of getting back into SH3 so I will check out your GWX mod.

Does it overwrite the other mods I have installed? I can't remember which I have, but I believe the major one is the depth charge mod. Other than that, it's mostly stock.

[Boris]

Thanks for the tip Boris. I've been thinking of getting back into SH3 so I will check out your GWX mod.

Does it overwrite the other mods I have installed? I can't remember which I have, but I believe the major one is the depth charge mod. Other than that, it's mostly stock.
GWX isn't mine, though I had a small hand in it's creation as a member of the mod team.

If you're going to install GWX, then you will need a clean installation of SH3 patched to 1.4b. The installer won't let GWX install onto anything else. Make sure you also get the recently released 1.02 patch for GWX, and install that immediately after the GWX install.
JoneSoft generic Mod Enabler (JSGME) is included in the install, as are a number of optional mods. You can put any extra mods in that you want and enable them with JSGME, but it's in your intersests to make sure they are GWX compatible (in general, everything released since GWX).
What does the depth charge mod do and how old is it? You'll find that most things have been completely overhauled in GWX anyway, so you might not need it.

[Sailor Steve]

Differences I've seen so far:

Much improved crew management with assigned watch bills and automatic rotation.

Upgraded weather with dynamic cloud shifts.

Completely changed damage-control system.

Special missions.

[Spin Doctor]

Thanks for the tip Boris. I've been thinking of getting back into SH3 so I will check out your GWX mod.

Does it overwrite the other mods I have installed? I can't remember which I have, but I believe the major one is the depth charge mod. Other than that, it's mostly stock.
GWX isn't mine, though I had a small hand in it's creation as a member of the mod team.

If you're going to install GWX, then you will need a clean installation of SH3 patched to 1.4b. The installer won't let GWX install onto anything else. Make sure you also get the recently released 1.02 patch for GWX, and install that immediately after the GWX install.
JoneSoft generic Mod Enabler (JSGME) is included in the install, as are a number of optional mods. You can put any extra mods in that you want and enable them with JSGME, but it's in your intersests to make sure they are GWX compatible (in general, everything released since GWX).
What does the depth charge mod do and how old is it? You'll find that most things have been completely overhauled in GWX anyway, so you might not need it.

Loosely remembered, the depth charge mod made changes based on research that said charges may have been too effective for a given depth. I also had some graphics mods for better using the plot screen. I can't remember how to do any of that stuff, so I'll be a noob capt for awhile. I was pretty good at getting hits at one point. I remember my girlfriend saying how if she heard the bubbling sounds coming from the computer room, she wasn't going to see me that night, lol.

I've been reading the manual (wow is it extensive! Great work!) so it may be that the mods I was using have been incorporated. I'm getting the files now, so I'll probably play though a couple of missions to get my feet wet so to speak, then uninstall the old SH3 and reinstall it with the GWX. I know this had to be a lot of work, so thanks to all involved.

[DJSatane]

I sincerely hope multiplayer bug from SH3 where server would receive proper damage from ai but clients in multiplayer receive buggy damage often instant death. I used to run sh3 buglist long time ago and I remember many issues with server and clients in SH3, I am looking forward to fixed multiplayer.

[flintlock]

/deleted

[Takeda Shingen]

Edit: to say, you are right TDK. I did buy SH3 within hours of its release, but SH4 have to be a wait and see.

I always wait for the first few patches to be released, although, I do admit that it is difficult.

[Sailor Steve]

I just reread these comments a little more closely, and felt I had to say something.
So with SH4 on the nerar horizon, what's going to be so different here than in Sh3? Other than eyecandy, I mean. I don't care about that. Gameplay is all that I'm concerned about. At the very least, I'd like the systems to work as historically documented. There was some definite laziness on this aspect in SH3.
Have you tried Aces Of The Deep? Though it's now sixteen years old, it had almost perfect gameplay, but compared to today would be extremely lacking in the eye-candy department. You should love it.
If this is SH3 in a new dress, then I'll probably pass. No offense, but I don't need SH3.5. When you consider the major sub battles were in the Atlantic, I would imagine the developers would need to incorporate a lot of innovation to make the Pacific interesting, given the fairly light merchant traffic compared to the Atlantic.
Considering that the original Silent Hunter was a Pacific-based game, you should consider yourself lucky there's a franchise around at all. Some of us have been waiting for this for more than a decade.
Having new subs in a new theater is nice and all, but at the end of the day, they all use the same dials, gages, optics and have the same mission. Campaign involvement is the only savior in the sim world, I think. Think EAW, panzer Elite, Mig Alley, Red Baron 3D, ya know? The campaign is what made these classics. I would like to see a new classic come out of the sim world and this has the potential as much as anything out there.
Again, if you want Atlantic, think AOD; if you want Pacific (which obviously you don't) try SHI. They both had great campaign systems, and still do.

[Spin Doctor]

I've heard of aces of the deep, but that was before my time in gaming. I might have a bit of trouble finding parts/building a computer to run a 16 year old game, but it does seem that the developers of older games and sims had to put most of their efforts into gameplay vice graphics since there was no graphics revolution going on as it is now. It seems to be an either/or situation with most developers leaning hard into the graphics upgrade race.

It's not that big a deal. I was just wondering the emphasis behind SH4 was. I think I have a pretty good idea now.

Thanks

[NorthStorm]

For me, the biggest improvement is the fact that i will be able to command a destroyer on the multiplayer.

[joea]

For me, the biggest improvement is the fact that i will be able to command a destroyer on the multiplayer.

:o News to me!!

[OlegM]

For me, the biggest improvement is the fact that i will be able to command a destroyer on the multiplayer.

Not really. BTW I look forward to this as much as you but I find the lack of MP-related info and screenshots suspicious. Neal promised his MP preview two weeks ago and postponed it indefinitely :huh:

What we do know is you will not be able to excatly "command a destroyer". It will be one guy as escort commander vs up to 3 guys (7 over LAN) as subs attacking his conwoy. I **guess** the escort commander guy will be able to issue only generic commands to his escorts like "go there, use ASDIC, drop DCs now etc".

[Janus]

What we know - besides the graphics overhall - is;
- Double the radio traffic
[...]
But still, much of the time you are going to travel to a patrol area to sink stuff. If that is boring to you then you should pass.

Barkhorn. Double the radio traffic - compared to "be more aggressive" and "good job" you get from BdU in SHIII what can there be in SHIV?

The campaign definately was the weak spot in SHIII for me: missions always the same, no communication with BdU and most of all no Wolfpacks and some other stuff.

It would have been cool if the SHIII campaign would have been more like Falcon 4's campaign for example.

[John Channing]

It would have been cool if the SHIII campaign would have been more like Falcon 4's campaign for example.

You mean that you would prefer that it took 10 years to get it almost working properly?

JCC

[Spin Doctor]

It would have been cool if the SHIII campaign would have been more like Falcon 4's campaign for example.

You mean that you would prefer that it took 10 years to get it almost working properly?

JCC

I'm pretty sure that he just means one that is immersive. You already knew that, I've no doubt even if it did take awhile to get its act together. It was worth it in the long run since someone had the foresight to put the basic campaign building blocks into place even if they were not allowed the time (since Microprose was about to go under) to put it all together. I have a copy of the Falcon 4.0 special edition binder here at work and people ask about it from time to time. I work for a military flight simulator developer doing hardware QA and some of the programmers seem impressed with the level of detail included in the manual.

Actually, a good MP component can make up for a multitude of campaign sins. Take IL2 for instance. The campaign and single player were mediocre at best, but the online component, which was very well done, kept it alive for over 5 years, with little signs of stopping. It holds the record on my harddrive for longevity and it's still excellent for a quick fix or a long campaign type online war.

[joea]

It would have been cool if the SHIII campaign would have been more like Falcon 4's campaign for example.
You mean that you would prefer that it took 10 years to get it almost working properly?

JCC
I'm pretty sure that he just means one that is immersive. You already knew that, I've no doubt even if it did take awhile to get its act together. It was worth it in the long run since someone had the foresight to put the basic campaign building blocks into place even if they were not allowed the time (since Microprose was about to go under) to put it all together. I have a copy of the Falcon 4.0 special edition binder here at work and people ask about it from time to time. I work for a military flight simulator developer doing hardware QA and some of the programmers seem impressed with the level of detail included in the manual.

Actually, a good MP component can make up for a multitude of campaign sins. Take IL2 for instance. The campaign and single player were mediocre at best, but the online component, which was very well done, kept it alive for over 5 years, with little signs of stopping. It holds the record on my harddrive for longevity and it's still excellent for a quick fix or a long campaign type online war.

3rd party came out with some superb campaigns for offline which should have been integrated from the start.

[John Channing]

Nothing personal guys... I just love poking "falconeers".

JCC

[FIREWALL]

:) Nothing personal guys... I just love poking "falconeers".

JCC

:) Smile when you say that hombre :)

[Spin Doctor]

He's probably smiling when he's poking, regardless... :o

[Sgian Dubh]

Well, the missions won't be the same old, same old boringness of grid clearing as in SH3.

You'll have commando drop offs, photo reckon, pilot rescue, specific targets etc. Mission objectives will also change during missions.

As for the ability to night attack, don't know how the AI will react. But it is moddable. GWX vastly improved this instance for SH3, allowing you to get closer than 1km to enemy ships in some cases... being able to slip past the escorts and into a convoy on the surface.

Really?

My experience with GWX thus far is that the ships all seem to have long-range, night-vision equipment....

[ReallyDedPoet]

Differences I've seen so far:

Much improved crew management with assigned watch bills and automatic rotation.

Upgraded weather with dynamic cloud shifts.

Completely changed damage-control system.

Special missions.

I like this stuff plus I think there will be more than enough new stuff to make SH4 its own game, then once modders rip into it:up::up::up: Look what happened to Stock SH3.

[Mush Martin]

Well, the missions won't be the same old, same old boringness of grid clearing as in SH3.

You'll have commando drop offs, photo reckon, pilot rescue, specific targets etc. Mission objectives will also change during missions.

As for the ability to night attack, don't know how the AI will react. But it is moddable. GWX vastly improved this instance for SH3, allowing you to get closer than 1km to enemy ships in some cases... being able to slip past the escorts and into a convoy on the surface.


:hmm::up::up::up::up::up::up:

[Mush Martin]

Differences I've seen so far:

Much improved crew management with assigned watch bills and automatic rotation.

Upgraded weather with dynamic cloud shifts.

Completely changed damage-control system.

Special missions.
I like this stuff plus I think there will be more than enough new stuff to make SH4 its own game, then once modders rip into it:up::up::up: Look what happened to Stock SH3.


as recently ago as dec 06 you mean right :sunny:

[Tool]

Nothing personal guys... I just love poking "falconeers".

JCC

No poking us.. And if you really want to try Falcon in it's ultimate form.. Try the new Open Falcon 4.3. What F4 always should have been. Our squadron has done away with AF even.

Oh.. and back on topic.. according to the preview in the new issue of Games For Windows Magazine, SHIV multiplayer with escorts/destroyers will be like an RTS. Meaning, you can tell ships where to go and patrol and watch the action from above (I assume this based on my experience with an RTS), but not actually be at the helm dropping charges.

Tool.

[OlegM]

Oh.. and back on topic.. according to the preview in the new issue of Games For Windows Magazine, SHIV multiplayer with escorts/destroyers will be like an RTS. Meaning, you can tell ships where to go and patrol and watch the action from above (I assume this based on my experience with an RTS), but not actually be at the helm dropping charges.

That's April issue of GFW right? March is the last issue I've seen, and there was no SHIV preview in there.

Can you provide more details? Is there a screenshot of this "view from above"? I am afraid it won't be terribly involving and fun for escort commander to spend the whole game in some top down view while 3 submarine captains are having all the fun in 3D chasing his merchants? :shifty:

[Safe-Keeper]

Improved dynamic campaign with dynamic orders and radio traffic as well as new missions.
More radio messages.
Better graphics.
Reworked damage control, crew management, and UI.
Better map design.
Life-boats with shipwrecked sailors and pilots ejecting from doomed aircraft. Both can suppposedly be rescued by you.
Screen resolution no longer stuck at 1024x768 or whatever.No poking us.. And if you really want to try Falcon in it's ultimate form.. Try the new Open Falcon 4.3. What F4 always should have been. Our squadron has done away with AF even.You had to wait until I bought Falcon 4.0 Allied Force with telling me that;).

[Tool]

There is only a few screenshots in this issue of GFW(April 2005), and none showing the view from above. I couldn't find it on their website, but It just talks about the previous versions and some of the changes such as crew management, new visuals, etc.

Nothing major or new we didn't already know about, just a half page writeup.

And yea... you REALLY need to checkout Open Falcon.. I can't get enough airtime now. If you are a pilot with no home, the 56th is always recruiting.

Tool.

[CCIP]

as recently ago as dec 06 you mean right :sunny:
I would, however, note that though GWX is a December 06 release, modded SHIII was already vastly better than 'vanilla' as early as May-June '05 with Real Uboat. GWX didn't crop up out of nowhere - modders have always been vigilant and active in SHIII, and GWX is in many ways an accumulation of two years of gradually-compiled work rather than a sudden burst that it might look like on the surface!

The modders will descend on SHIV just as quickly, mark my words :yep:

[Laffertytig]

where can i find info on open falcon 4.3? is it a mod for falcon allied fighters?

[Tool]

No it is not a mod for allied force. It is a heavily modified (including the .exe) of the original Falcon 4 with BMS. Check the Falcon message board equivalent of subsim.com here:

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/index.php

Tool

[Zero Niner]

Cool! Nice to see other F4 pilots in Subsim!. :) :up:

[kiwi_2005]

Probably already said
bigger subs - i cant wait to stand on deck in the conning tower or do americans call it the Sail? Anyways it would be bigger size area compared to the much smaller U-boats. I think:hmm:

Side missions or dont know if these missions are in the campaign or side missions, but heading out looking for a downed pilot or doing a recon of a port is going to give the player something else to do when hes out at sea not just roaming around looking for convoys.

Seeing how well the ocean effects are i never really liked SH3 ocean although better than anything ive seen but to me it wasn't real, well it aint real but it just didn't feel right. Im hoping our boats will roll over big waves then come crashing down. Like in Das Boot during the rough whether ride.:D

[Tool]

Cool! Nice to see other F4 pilots in Subsim!. :) :up:

Heheh. Yesterday I discovered some Submarine Drivers over in Falcon 4 land.. so it goes both ways.

Tool