8 KM vs. 16 KM Thoughts and Reality

[Lanzfeld]

I have been playing NYGM with the 16 km visibility for awhile now and I notice that I can spot, on a clear day, the smoke from ships even farther out then 16 km. So this suggests to me that even though it is a 16 km mod you can see just a bit farther.

After reading from two different sources ("Type VII U-Boat" by Stern and "U-Boat Commander" by Cremer) that visibility from a Type VII tower, on the best day, was between 10km and 12 km (seeing tops of masts) I am seriously thinking of switching to the 8 km version when I start playing GWX. This makes even more sense if you can actually see a bit farther then the 8 km (like seeing a bit farther in the 16 km mod) so as to simulate the realistic 10km-12km visibility. Plus it seems that with the 16 km mod on a clear day or night my crew sees things that are really far and almost impossible to see and my crew is blind when visibility drops to "light fog" as I can see things way before they do.

What do you guys think of this? What mod do you use and why? Reality may suggest that the 8 km mod is more realitic.

[Corrupt_File]

Seeing the tops of masts maybe, but it's the smoke cone a WO will look for, which in reality, on a clear day etc... you could see from +16 km (depending on the ship).

[Venatore]

8km for me. It's my PC setup that dictate's this. :-?

[tommyk]

I like 16km... I gives me less feeling of sailing in a small bubble and feels right for me...

[melnibonian]

8Km as Venatore said. My computer cannot handle more than that:nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

Sailor Steve said 16km is more realistic. I would have to go with Steve's assessment as I believe Sailor Steve is or was a sailor. Lets look at it this way. If you listen to the weatherman ofter they will state 'visability at....2 miles,' etc. On clear days the weatherman statement will say "visability at 10 miles or sometimes more. Seeing mast tips and tall columns of smoke very far away with binoculars is a very real thing. I believe the 8km mod was created for computers that have trouble generating the broader spectrum for field of view. I myself am lucky my rig can handle the 16km and I use it:up:

[Lanzfeld]

Sailor Steve may be a sailor but so was Cremer. Remember that you are only 5 meters above the water in a type 7.

Just because visibility is reported at 10 miles doesnt mean you can see objects that far.

[irish1958]

The earth is round, and the curvature limits visibility distance. Smoke in the distance can only be observed under ideal conditions.
I suspect seeing smoke at 18 or 20 Km would be a very rare event.
Radar, of course, changed everything; even then, the horizon and the three mile limit (aprox 5Km) limited detection.
I use the 8 Km as I suspect it is more realistic.

[Jonte]

I'm using NYGM which doesn't have an optional 8km mod? My system stutters a bit with the 16km mod and if 8km could be as realistic I want to change the visibility. How can I do this? With SH3MiniTweaker?

Or should I use GWX instead? Is it as realistic as NYGM?:arrgh!:

[tommyk]

http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/atmos_refr/horizon.html

take 60 feet for the height of smoke an imagine you sit on water...

distance to horizon (miles) = sqrt [ 7 × h (feet) / 4 ]

I don't know how it is in real naval conditions but I feel 16km suits me better...

[Bill Nichols]

Having actually served in submarines and spent many hours on the bridge while surfaced (of course!), I find the 8-km setting an acceptible compromise between daylight sighting ranges and nighttime. Put another way, I mainly I use the 8-km setting to prevent my watch officer from making too many impossible sightings at night.

[tommyk]

ah, thanks bill!

[AVGWarhawk]

Sailor Steve may be a sailor but so was Cremer. Remember that you are only 5 meters above the water in a type 7.

Just because visibility is reported at 10 miles doesnt mean you can see objects that far.

True, we are 5 meters above the water but the masts and smoke are very high(on calm weather days for smoke columns). If visibility is reported at 10 miles I would venture to guess that what is being said is with the human eye un-assisted can see 10 miles....unobstructed by fog, humitity, particulates in the air. Picking out individual objects....probably not. With assitance of strong binoculars, I would say yes. I can not say for sure. It would probably be best for an answer from Sailor Steve and his take on this question:hmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

Having actually served in submarines and spent many hours on the bridge while surfaced (of course!), I find the 8-km setting an acceptible compromise between daylight sighting ranges and nighttime. Put another way, I mainly I use the 8-km setting to prevent my watch officer from making too many impossible sightings at night.

Bill,

I see you find 8km as an acceptable compromise for SH3 and prevention of the WO being Eagle Eye GI Joe and see things that could not be seen. I take this as for game play. In your professional opinion and experience, (real data you have experience on the submarine) calm day, no haze, no fog, few particulate matter in the air, could one with assistance of binoculars see to 16km? Meaning smoke columns and masts? I would suspect at the very least smoke column, dark black belching stacks pumping thick black smoke against a blue sky could be visable with assistance of binoculars. These coal burning vessels make quite column of smoke. What is your thoughts on this?

I agree with the night vision within the game. The watchmen are a little to good. But in retrospect I believe the developers are at a fine line between having an enjoyable experience as oppossed getting a little impatient looking and waiting.

Let me know your thoughts on the real experience data you possess through your service in the forces. No one can beat the real deal!!!!

What submarine did you serve on?

[Hartmann]

The best compromise could be a 10 km mod (or 12 maximum) a more than stock but no as big as 16 km :hmm:

but it could need a lot of work....

0-------8--x----16

[Sailor Steve]

Sailor Steve said 16km is more realistic. I would have to go with Steve's assessment as I believe Sailor Steve is or was a sailor.


Sailor Steve may be a sailor but so was Cremer.

It would probably be best for an answer from Sailor Steve and his take on this question
Time to get one thing out in the open: Yes, I was a sailor...but only for two years, and that was 36 years ago now. People like Bill Nichols are far more qualified experience-wise to answer questions like these.

What I do have for credentials is the fact that I started working on my own tabletop naval game more than a decade ago, which in itself means exactly nothing, but I do spend a lot of time doing research. Which leads me to...

Being at the library it was easy to look at their copy of The American Practical Navigator, which has all of the needed charts and tables.

Remember that you are only 5 meters above the water in a type 7.
That's about 16 feet. At 15 feet above sea level the horizon is 4.4 nautical miles, or 5.1 statute miles, or 8.23 kilometers. That sounds about right, for the horizon. However, if the combined height of your position and the target ships mast equals 60 feet, then you should see it at 16.45 kilometers.

Bismarck and Hood opened fire on each other at a range of 26,000 yards, or about 13 nautical miles, or about 25 kilometers, so they obviously saw each other even before that; and that was on a grey, overcast day. But they were also both very large ships, with lookouts standing about 60 feet above the water, and fire control rangefinders about 100 feet high (I think).

I use the 16km mod because I like the way it looks and feels in the game, but I agree with Bill: it's a major flaw in the game that lets the watch crew sight at those distances at night. What to do, what to do?

Oh, a note about radar: I could easily be wrong here, but it's my understanding that most World War Two search and fire-control radar systems were also limited by line of sight. They couldn't see any further than the eyeball, they just had the advantage that they could see that far at night or in a fog.

[Lanzfeld]

Thanks for the response Sailor Steve. I like to get opinions on this topic and your paragraph was a great contribution to this comprimise.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah, thanks Steve. Seems we are all in consensous about night time visability and the eagle eye watchmen:up:

[melnibonian]

Thanks Steve:up: Your contributions are always most welcome and helpful:up:

[Jimbuna]

I use the 16km mod because I like the way it looks and feels in the game, but I agree with Bill: it's a major flaw in the game that lets the watch crew sight at those distances at night. What to do, what to do?

Precisely :yep:

The 16km mod is my preference for daylight conditions...as for nightime...I just make a mental allowance/compromise :yep:

[Bill Nichols]

Having actually served in submarines and spent many hours on the bridge while surfaced (of course!), I find the 8-km setting an acceptible compromise between daylight sighting ranges and nighttime. Put another way, I mainly I use the 8-km setting to prevent my watch officer from making too many impossible sightings at night.

Bill,

I see you find 8km as an acceptable compromise for SH3 and prevention of the WO being Eagle Eye GI Joe and see things that could not be seen. I take this as for game play. In your professional opinion and experience, (real data you have experience on the submarine) calm day, no haze, no fog, few particulate matter in the air, could one with assistance of binoculars see to 16km? Meaning smoke columns and masts? I would suspect at the very least smoke column, dark black belching stacks pumping thick black smoke against a blue sky could be visable with assistance of binoculars. These coal burning vessels make quite column of smoke. What is your thoughts on this?

I agree with the night vision within the game. The watchmen are a little to good. But in retrospect I believe the developers are at a fine line between having an enjoyable experience as oppossed getting a little impatient looking and waiting.

Let me know your thoughts on the real experience data you possess through your service in the forces. No one can beat the real deal!!!!

What submarine did you serve on?


Sailor Steve's info for distance-to-the-horizon is right on the money. Given clear conditions, one can certainly see 'over the 8-km horizon' to spot masts (and smoke columns). At that point, it all depends on how high the other ship's masts are.

The calculation I was taught is: Distance to horizon (in nmi) = 1.4 * sqrt (height above water in feet). You need to do this twice, once for yourself and again for the other ship, and add together. (Note: Radar can 'see' about 30% farther than this due to bending of the radar beams by the atmosphere).

There are many examples in the literature of U-boats and US subs spotting masts or smoke smudges, and using those to maneuver into position. The "U-Boat Commander's Handbook" says (para 113): "In taking up its station forward to the beam of the enemy, the submarine must not endanger its most valuable asset, invisibility. In daytime, in clear weather, the submarine should not therefore be able to see more of the enemy than just the tops of his masts...

Nighttime visibility is an important item that SHIII models very poorly. Sighting ranges should depend on phase of the moon, for example, but doesn't. The watch officer must have eaten carrots for dinner, because he can see ships that I can't see. I hope SHIV does a better job.

I served on USS Nautilus (SSN 571) during her final years before decommissioning.

:know:

[AVGWarhawk]

I did not think about night time watch until this thead but yes, I believe you are correct about SH3 and the carrot eating WO! A little to cheeky at night! I guess there is no way to model it out at night and the best compromise is using 8km version. But I just want to see those lovely convoys 16km off:yep: . So I will blindfold my watch at night;) . Thanks for the information!

The Nautilus! Such a shame to see the hardward get decommissioned. Some get mothballed for use later if needed. There was an aircraft carrier here in Baltimore that was being cut up to make razor blades. Such an ugly way to go:down:

Thanks Bill!

[GT182]

AVG, SSN 571 is in Groton at the sub base's museum and the tour is great. Take a run up there someday and give her a visit. The memorial for WWII subs is on the road to the left of the museum entrance and is another great site to visit. Bill knows what I'm talking about and probably can give you better info.

[alexoscar]

Is there any way to return to 8km from the 16km without unistalling the GWX mod? (therefore, unistalling SH3).

I installed the 16km atmosphere mod and now, I want to try the standard 8km in GWX after reading several of your posts. I'm in campaign-mission just now.

Thanks in advance.

[Lanzfeld]

Did you use the mod installer?

[tommyk]

If you installed the 16km with JSGME it is 1 click (JSGME makes backup if you install something with it) but since you asked I am afraid that you copied it manualy and made no backup? I think then you have to remove GWX and install it again...

I think it will not hurt your current carreer...

[melnibonian]

Just disable the 16Km visibility mod via JSGME. The 8Km is the GWX default visibility setting. Make sure to be in port when you change between these settings and rollback SH3Cmd before.

[alexoscar]

Thanks guys. But Tommyk is right. I copied the mod files manually without backup. :damn: Sometimes, I'm so stupid...

Well, I did a data folder copy (backup) but from the stock 1.4b game. No GWX. Arg.

Regards.

[SquareSteelBar]

hi alexoscar,

GWX 8km visibility (http://ultrashare.net/hosting/fl/2a42ad7b5a/)

Note what melnibonian mentioned: Make sure to be in port when you change between these settings and rollback SH3Cmd before.

SquareSteelBar

[alexoscar]

hi alexoscar,

GWX 8km visibility (http://ultrashare.net/hosting/fl/2a42ad7b5a/)

Note what melnibonian mentioned: Make sure to be in port when you change between these settings and rollback SH3Cmd before.

SquareSteelBar

A BIG thank you. Mate, you helped me a lot with this upload. A lot of time uninstalling and reinstalling avoided.

This is a great forum. (As great as their members ;) ).

[TarJak]

Don't forget the fact that particularly when a smoke column was spotted, one of the watch crew stood on the periscope mounting hanging onto the scope for support to get a bit more range.

This was also what they were trying to do with the autogyro contraption thats mentioned here:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=101899

That said I agree that the super night vision is the biggest drawback with the visibility modelling which is why I prefer to use the 8km mod as well. I reckon the 10 or 12km mode would probably be a better compromise though.

[irish1958]

16 Km distance.
Remember, this is the North Atlantic. Of 365 days, how many do you think are perfect for observing a mast at 16 Km?
I really think the 8 Km is more realistic.
However, I was in the Air Force, not the Navy, so take my observations for what they are worth.

[Kumando]

Would be perfect if someone could make a mod that stayed at 16 km at day and switched to 8 km at night, can it be done?

[Jonte]

I think 8km could be the avarage visibility distance during the 24 hour day/night cycle...

[AVGWarhawk]

AVG, SSN 571 is in Groton at the sub base's museum and the tour is great. Take a run up there someday and give her a visit. The memorial for WWII subs is on the road to the left of the museum entrance and is another great site to visit. Bill knows what I'm talking about and probably can give you better info.

We have the Torsk here in Baltimore. What I have done is a made a list of all the sights I want to see when I retire. I think the final stop will be in Pearl Hawaii. I have not shown the wife yet. Then again, do I want her to go?:hmm:

[Hartmann]

Would be perfect if someone could make a mod that stayed at 16 km at day and switched to 8 km at night, can it be done?

I don´t think that it could be done because visibility depends of the sky dome radious.
and change it is a lot of work. fix the clouds wormhole efect, dome size , change sensors ranges,etc

a lot of time ago ...
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=81936&highlight=sphere