Impossible To Evade Torpedoes

[Eagle1_Division]

I just played Fillipino Convoy and the U.S. escort found me. I was just a few meters above the bottom to be hard to detect, but eventually his helo fired a torpedo. I was waiting to try a nice-looking trick from The Hunt for Red October. I set the ship to ahead flank, and the torpedo started pinging. As the pinging got faster I fired CM's and Blew the ballast, I hit the surface at 32 knots. Smehow, the torpedo managed to go from 205 meters, to the surface, in under a minute and at about a 90*angle(it was heading towards me as i found out in recording). I even opened DW edit and found the angle to be 60*... Even with 3 Active CM's and an impossible climb angle, the torpedo still killed me, I didn't have show truth on so I had to rely on the recording.(apparently while u can't c them the ships teleport around the map???) I find this all to be extremely puzzling:doh: .

[Molon Labe]

If ships appear to be teleporting, that is just your solution or link reports updating.

Torpedoes are more manueverable than you. Don't expect violent manuevers to be able to get you out of trouble. The best way to evade the torpedo is to stay out of it's sensor cone to prevent it from acquiring you. If it does acquire, your next best bet is to try to get the seeker to lock onto a CM by positioning the CM and manuevering such that the torp seeker has to scan over the CM to hold its lock on you.

[Bellman]

I agree with MLs good advice. It may be the case though that you have a torp dropped almost on your head, or launched in your face, where you have very limited opportunities for escape. In these instances violent manoeuvres may be your only survival option.

Its not for me to prescribe as I think each player should experiment with some highly risky physical evasion tactics. It is generaly true that some torps can outmanoeuvre you but it is possible to set the AI some very difficult calculations.

In flight sims two methods have been successfuly employed by pilots facing incoming missiles. Firstly the barrel roll head on to spoof an incoming air launched missile and secondly the anti Sam vertical dive with a 90 deg pullout offset. Both manoeuvres push the incomings computation to the limits within the confines of its own inertial propulsion envelope. Forgive the simplification but elements from these tactics can be employed by the sub captain .

Torps could be outmanoeuvred in extremis pre-104. My post 104 (LWAMI 306) tests observe, as Eagle1_Division reports above, a very marked (exaggerated?) degree of torp (Mk 48) manoeuvrability when locked-on to target. So the jury here is out on the 'new' percentages for survivability

The rigidity of search patterns and the lack of responsiveness of many 'air launched' torps
do not present quite the challenge of the new Mk48 and Mk 50 torps.

[Bellman]

Edited out double post.

[Castout]

Man the scene i hate MOST from 'The Hunt of Red October' is when the torpedoes exploded on countermeasures :damn:. If could really be a classic if it wasn't for that moronic scene. Now thx to that scene the only worthy sub movie is Das Boot.

[Dr.Sid]

We (public) don't know if torpedoes does explode on CM or not.

[Castout]

yea like flare/chaff is able able to detonate an incoming missile. Cmmon if flares and chaffs don't detonate missile why should sub countermeasures do?

Look at WWII type torpedo fuse: magnetic and impact.
I bet there's no magnetic field generated by a countermeasure and obviously impact fuse won't detonate either. If topedo does explode on countermeasure why does Oliver Hazard Perry class employ a nixie topedo decoy? The safest would be to throw lots of CMs and the threat torps would explode on them.

In short CMs only spoof/fool the sensor/homing devices and has got no effect on detonation devices/fuses. I think :88)

But then again one could question how do you know that chaffs and flares don't detonate incoming missiles? I know because if chaffs and flares do detonate incoming missiles, all tanks would have employed them. I don't see any tanks employing a flares dispenser(only smoke and anti missile missile system). The reason tanks don't employ flares dispenser is because their land speed is infinitely small compared to the incoming missile speed so spoofing the missile sensor would be ineffective as the location of that tank is relatively unchanged. I think. :)

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Look at WWII type torpedo fuse: magnetic and impact.
I bet there's no magnetic field generated by a countermeasure and obviously impact fuse won't detonate either. If topedo does explode on countermeasure why does Oliver Hazard Perry class employ a nixie topedo decoy? The safest would be to throw lots of CMs and the threat torps would explode on them.

Actually, the Nixie also has a decoying advantage in that it moves, so it can trick a torpedo smart enough to actually measure (via Doppler generally) whether the target is moving. It is also moving in the same general direction of the intended target, so even if the sub is wire-steering, it might not be able to figure it out at once.

But I agree with you on the larger points. Large decoys like the Russian MG-74 or the American MOSS (is MOSS a Technothriller-creation or does it exist?) and Nixie probably have room for electromagnetics that can generate a field to explode a torpedo and so could do it. The smaller bubble generators and noisemakers that the game seems to be simulating almost certainly don't have that facility. Even if the torpedo hit the little canister head on, it shouldn't detonate the fuse unless it is so sensitive the question becomes why didn't it explode against some stray ocean current.

On the other hand, you might note that in DW, we have no choice whether to use a bubble generator or a MG-74.

[Molon Labe]

Man the scene i hate MOST from 'The Hunt of Red October' is when the torpedoes exploded on countermeasures :damn:. If could really be a classic if it wasn't for that moronic scene. Now thx to that scene the only worthy sub movie is Das Boot.

I can't recall that scene...

[Eagle1_Division]

What I meant was when I was on the recording and show truth was on the ships were teleporting... I guess that means paranoia is right... If u don't look at something or know its there, it breaks the laws of physics :lol: Probolly it didn't record correctly though... What happend with the torpedo though is this: A torpedo is headed strait for me, going at me head-to head. I was at about 205 m I heard it ping, and as the pinging got to about a second apart, I launched 2 active CM's and blew the ballast, im now heading at 32 knts to the surface. While im climbing I fire another CM about halfway. Then I hit the surface, and after about a half second, without any pinging, it blows me out of the water.

Oh and the "moronic" scene had truth to it(at least in-game) I was testing out a mission I had made for an Ohio mod(yes, dangerous waters, it replaces 688I). An enemy ASW plane had found me and fired 2 torpedoes, I turned rudder hard right, And spit out countermeasures as fast as i could. The ohio being massive, I had launched many countermeasures before I was at a course away from the torpedo, about 10-15. As the torpedo started pinging faster and faster, me running from the CM's at full speed, it exploded on the CM's.

[Molon Labe]

What I meant was when I was on the recording and show truth was on the ships were teleporting... I guess that means paranoia is right... If u don't look at something or know its there, it breaks the laws of physics :lol: Probolly it didn't record correctly though... What happend with the torpedo though is this: A torpedo is headed strait for me, going at me head-to head. I was at about 205 m I heard it ping, and as the pinging got to about a second apart, I launched 2 active CM's and blew the ballast, im now heading at 32 knts to the surface. While im climbing I fire another CM about halfway. Then I hit the surface, and after about a half second, without any pinging, it blows me out of the water.

Oh and the "moronic" scene had truth to it(at least in-game) I was testing out a mission I had made for an Ohio mod(yes, dangerous waters, it replaces 688I). An enemy ASW plane had found me and fired 2 torpedoes, I turned rudder hard right, And spit out countermeasures as fast as i could. The ohio being massive, I had launched many countermeasures before I was at a course away from the torpedo, about 10-15. As the torpedo started pinging faster and faster, me running from the CM's at full speed, it exploded on the CM's.

In a head-on situation, any CMs you deploy are very unlikely to have any effect. The torp is going to have a lead pursuit course on you, and isn't looking at anything you leave behind you. It's just going to point itself towards wherever you're turning towards, whether that turn is horizontal or vertical, and meet you there.

[ASWnut101]

I just got done watching HFRO last week. No torpedo explodes on a CM.



And what you should have done was get really SHALLOW. You are much harder to detect because of 1) ambient wave noise, and 2) Active can't detect you very easily at shallow depths (ie. periscope depth) from afar.


and for your blow-tanks monuver. Yes, it can be done (I have done it.) But you need to be going really fast, and need to be at a reasonable depth. As I recall, the waters in that mission aren't very deep. Best thing is about 100meters, flank speed, with the torpedo coming at you from ~45 degrees off your bow. Don't go too deep or the Torp will curve in the vertical and hit you from below.

[fatty]

Eagle, my SOP for when an active torpedo has acquired me is very similar to what you have mentioned here except with the addition of rudder.

I try to position the torpedo at my 4 or 8 o'clock and ring up ahead standard. When the active interval begins to drop indicating homing I lay on flank, beginning, to quote PeriscopeDepth's signature, "executing the well-known maneuver of getting the hell out"

Once up to speed I wait until the interval is at 1. Drop active countermeasures (deep), blow ballast, and apply hard rudder. You corkscrew all the way to the top at breakneck speed, moving out of the sensor cone in case the torpedo follows you into the climb. This has yet to fail me unless I have no CMs loaded, there are multiple torpedos, or there was insufficient warning (e.g. air-dropped). :arrgh!:

[Castout]

Man the scene i hate MOST from 'The Hunt of Red October' is when the torpedoes exploded on countermeasures :damn:. If could really be a classic if it wasn't for that moronic scene. Now thx to that scene the only worthy sub movie is Das Boot.
I can't recall that scene...

Hmm i think it was when 'big d' (SSN Dallas) dispensed countermeasures then blew ballast to spoof an incoming torpedo from the Sierra or is that Akula class submarine.
As i recall that torp exploded on countermeasures.

The scene whereby the torp launched by a maritime patrol aircraft hitting the canyon cliff was awesome though. I have no ill-feel about that.

[Molon Labe]

Man the scene i hate MOST from 'The Hunt of Red October' is when the torpedoes exploded on countermeasures :damn:. If could really be a classic if it wasn't for that moronic scene. Now thx to that scene the only worthy sub movie is Das Boot.
I can't recall that scene...
Hmm i think it was when 'big d' (SSN Dallas) dispensed countermeasures then blew ballast to spoof an incoming torpedo from the Sierra or is that Akula class submarine.
As i recall that torp exploded on countermeasures.

The scene whereby the torp launched by a maritime patrol aircraft hitting the canyon cliff was awesome though. I have no ill-feel about that.
No, it struck and killed the Konavalov.
(Andre, you've lost another submarine?)

[ASWnut101]

Although that was one of the more unrealistic parts. An Active AND Passive torpedo? Not too sure about that.

[LuftWolf]

The MOST unrealistic part of the whole movie was when an AIRDROPPED torpedo was detonated by the crew on board the FFG Ruben James. :rotfl:

Cheers,
David

PS Unless of course Clancy wrote it, in which case it's probably true LOL...

[Molon Labe]

You're not going to like the ATC mod, then. :D

Although if the seeker has both, I don't have any issues with being able to switch between them like you can with the ATC.

[ASWnut101]

The MOST unrealistic part of the whole movie was when an AIRDROPPED torpedo was detonated by the crew on board the FFG Ruben James. :rotfl:

Cheers,
David

PS Unless of course Clancy wrote it, in which case it's probably true LOL...

Ahh! Forgot that part already!:damn:

[Nexus7]

If the pinging rate is of one second, you're too soon to adopt ultimative measures like Eblow. I use to Eblow, together with course change, when the ping is 0.2-0.4 seconds frequency, and so far it did work.

About the countermeasures detonating torpedoes, I was the only dumb*** criticizing right after the game was released, never got a decent answer, nor from Sonalyst, either from the community.

i could expect, there's not only bubble buzzing CM's, but something more efficent, never implemented, able to detonate the fishes. But that is out of the public knowledge.

[Madman_GNSF]

If the pinging rate is of one second, you're too soon to adopt ultimative measures like Eblow. I use to Eblow, together with course change, when the ping is 0.2-0.4 seconds frequency, and so far it did work.

About the countermeasures detonating torpedoes, I was the only dumb*** criticizing right after the game was released, never got a decent answer, nor from Sonalyst, either from the community.

i could expect, there's not only bubble buzzing CM's, but something more efficent, never implemented, able to detonate the fishes. But that is out of the public knowledge.

Yeah with Stock DW it is soooo easy to evade active torps using active CM's. I've played in a game where my opponent and myself traded over 25 torps - all hitting CM's. With Stock DW passives torpedo's are way more effective.

[fatty]

Cheers Nexus. I wasn't sure if the interval indicator went lower than 1, but we are on the same page. I often get a period of silence after rapid pinging which I guess means the torpedo is in its "terminal" phase or something. At the start of that silence is usually when I blow.

[SeaQueen]

Hmm i think it was when 'big d' (SSN Dallas) dispensed countermeasures then blew ballast to spoof an incoming torpedo from the Sierra or is that Akula class submarine.

It was an Alfa. In the '80s the big scary Soviet attack submarine was the Alfa because it was faster and deeper diving (supposedly) than anything in the US. The thing was, it eventually became apparent that it didn't have that much an advantage at all, and maybe was at a disadvantage because it was acoustically not very stealthy. If you ask me, it's all tradeoffs, and whether speed was a good thing or not depended a lot on how you intended to employ the submarine. The real nail in the coffin for the Alfas was probably mechanical problems and the expense of maintaining their hulls.

[Castout]

Hmm i think it was when 'big d' (SSN Dallas) dispensed countermeasures then blew ballast to spoof an incoming torpedo from the Sierra or is that Akula class submarine.
It was an Alfa. In the '80s the big scary Soviet attack submarine was the Alfa because it was faster and deeper diving (supposedly) than anything in the US. The thing was, it eventually became apparent that it didn't have that much an advantage at all, and maybe was at a disadvantage because it was acoustically not very stealthy. If you ask me, it's all tradeoffs, and whether speed was a good thing or not depended a lot on how you intended to employ the submarine. The real nail in the coffin for the Alfas was probably mechanical problems and the expense of maintaining their hulls.

Good memory yes an alfa. Its hull is made of titanium. I read it somewhere that once it went past right under a NATO sea exercise :arrgh!:at a depth so deep that nothing could touch it. but it was loud though. after that incident the US was determined to develop deep running torpedo which resulted in ADCAP Mk 48.

[Castout]

No, it struck and killed the Konavalov.
(Andre, you've lost another submarine?)

It is? Hmm got to review that movie again. It was quite a long time ago since i saw it.
Maybe Das Boot indeed has got a decent modern-counterpart.

[SeaQueen]

Good memory yes an alfa. Its hull is made of titanium. I read it somewhere that once it went past right under a NATO sea exercise :arrgh!:at a depth so deep that nothing could touch it. but it was loud though. after that incident the US was determined to develop deep running torpedo which resulted in ADCAP Mk 48.

It seems like every 10 years or so the Navy comes out with it's newest "ultimate threat" submarine. My theory is that over at the Pentagon, there's an office where they get together around a conference table and pick out a "Submarine of the Decade" that will be the standard bogey man for all Congressional hearings on naval affairs, as well as the subject of all leaks to the Washington Times.

[Bellman]

BOT - Eblow is an old chesnut and of limited use given depth limitations and frequent presence of hostile airdales.

There was a window of opportunity for in-game excessive corkscrew and other high-risk vertical and horizontal manoeuvres, often placing the sub in a dangerously unstable difficult control condition (torp kills you v implode). That window appears to have closed with the new very highly mobile, neo-vto, type torps. The Jurys out.

[heartc]

Man the scene i hate MOST from 'The Hunt of Red October' is when the torpedoes exploded on countermeasures :damn:. If could really be a classic if it wasn't for that moronic scene. Now thx to that scene the only worthy sub movie is Das Boot.

I thought "Crimson Tide" was pretty good and way underrated. Granted, mutiny on a nuke sub is hard to believe - but that's the point of the movie.

.
.
.

Although a torp indeed detonates on CMs in that one, iirc. ;) Prolly you confused this scene with Red October.

[SeaQueen]

I thought "Crimson Tide" was pretty good and way underrated. Granted, mutiny on a nuke sub is hard to believe - but that's the point of the movie.


It was okay. I thought that the movie undercut it's own thesis at one point.

I keep hoping that someone takes a bunch of events from Blind Man's Bluff and smooshes them into a movie. One of my ongoing frustrations, though, is that except for sea stories I hear from the old guys around the office, it's hard to find good Cold War era sub stories. I'm really not as interested in WWII submarines as I am in Cold War and present day events. They're quite different, so anything I can find about the topic I devour. I'm so tired of hearing the same things over and over again. Scorpion... Thresher... blah... in this sense Blind Man's Bluff is entirely unique.

[Dr.Sid]

Crimson tide is just a drama coincidentally placed on the sub. They are attacked only to loose their antenna. I don't like the movie much, but what more, I don't even consider it a sub movie.

[heartc]

Well, how many modern sub movies are really out there? Not many, so I *want* to count Crimson Tide amongst them. In fact it *is* a sub movie. ;)

And this scene is excellent movie / acting stuff imho:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecF5Xp9pntI&mode=related&search=

[Lovro]

yea like flare/chaff is able able to detonate an incoming missile. Cmmon if flares and chaffs don't detonate missile why should sub countermeasures do?

Look at WWII type torpedo fuse: magnetic and impact.
I bet there's no magnetic field generated by a countermeasure and obviously impact fuse won't detonate either. If topedo does explode on countermeasure why does Oliver Hazard Perry class employ a nixie topedo decoy? The safest would be to throw lots of CMs and the threat torps would explode on them.

In short CMs only spoof/fool the sensor/homing devices and has got no effect on detonation devices/fuses. I think :88)

But then again one could question how do you know that chaffs and flares don't detonate incoming missiles? I know because if chaffs and flares do detonate incoming missiles, all tanks would have employed them. I don't see any tanks employing a flares dispenser(only smoke and anti missile missile system). The reason tanks don't employ flares dispenser is because their land speed is infinitely small compared to the incoming missile speed so spoofing the missile sensor would be ineffective as the location of that tank is relatively unchanged. I think. :) flare and chaff detonate A2A and G2A missiles because most of the modern missiles have proximity fuses which means that the warhead detonates when the missile thinks that the target is within the blast radious. If the missile is spoofed it thinks that the flare/chaff is the plane it detonates a couple of feet away from the flare.
Tanks dont have flares/chaff because
1- they are too slow
2- Anti tank missiles work in a completely diffrent way (laser, GPS, TV... guidance)

[Avatar]

I have a great way to evade a single torpedo:
Always remember to be hauling heavy "A" (ie. Flank bells) while you do this...Get the torpedo to your 4 or 8 o'clock position, while it's homing, and manuver to where you may think it's at your six, and drop an active countermeasure(I have both counter measure tubes with active), now turn to have the torpedo at your 4 or 8 and make sure it's still homing, drop the second countermeasure, then turn hard rudder to the direction OPPOSITE to where you dropped the second one, ie. if you dropped the second one at the 4 position, turn LEFT... if your dropped to the 8 o'clock position, turn RIGHT. Make sure that you dont turn back all the way back to the torpedo, maybe 90 degrees is enough, wait a few sec.s, then turn the opposite direction again, this can be done up to 180 degrees this time. Be at the helm and you will be able to do this by looking at the compass. HOPEFULLY, the torpedo will crusie through the two CM's and loose you in the confusion, but it will begin to snake again and go on it's merry way.
If it acquires you again, the do what the big "D" did I guess...( it's never worked for me)
so:
1. Go to flank speed.
2. Put incoming Torp at 4 or 8 o'clock.
3. Manuver to estimate that it's now at the 6 o'clock.
4. Drop active CM
5. Manuver to 4 or 8 o'clock and make sure it's still homing.
6. Drop active CM.
7. Manuver 90 degrees to OPPOSITE direction to where you dropped the second one(4 o'clock turn left, 8 o'clock turn right)
8. Hard rudder opposite again to 180 degress(if you turned left, turn right, and so on)
9. pray! hehe
The BEST advice is dont get into a position to get shot at in the first place. Dont try to "polish the cannonball" too much or you will get in trouble.
Try this on Truth On, to practice if you need. This can work against a helo dropped torpedo.
good luck