the early war surface attack

[cobalt]

So theres been a tutorial written about just about everything on this forum, but no one has written anything about my favourite part of SH3, surface attacks on covnoys.

I previously thought that convoy attacks on the surface were near impossible, as you would always get detected way too soon by the escorts. Since I started playing GWX ive noticed that the sensors were a lot better at night time, and the surface attack was possible. You no longer had to fire a salvo from 4000m out and hope you hit something.

this is a lot more tricky than creeping in at periscope depth. theres a few things you need to keep in mind

* Weather - The windspeed plays a big part in your attack positioning, the higher the windspeed, the closer you can slip in undetected. Fog is also important, light or medium fog is perfect for an attack.
* Preperation - Make sure you have everything that you're going to need, ready. IE your ship recognition manual prepared, Your TDC updated, all your officers ready, and your torpedo men ready to reload. You're going to have to make some very quick decisions
* Approach angle - Theres two differant ways that i've found to be effective. From the front of the convoy, or from the rear. the former being easier.
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2007/attackqe8.jpg
.

The trick is to get into a position where the lead escort can't see you. Once you get astern of the lead escort you need to move very quickly to the front of the convoy, so the escorts on the side don't spot you. Go ahead full and rush the front of the convoy.
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9413/shot1170119388copypo7.jpg

Now you're going to pick what ships you're going to torpedo. Make sure you have your speed settings already in your TDC and the bow angle. Its tricky to get an accurate range, so try to get as close as you can. You'll be able to get within 800m in good conditions. aim for the farthest merchant first, and then the closer ones. OR aim for the lead merchant and turn hard into the the next ship in line behind him.
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9186/sh3img2612007204422812qd2.jpg

let em go! its time consuming but its a great feeling when your eels hit their mark

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9135/convoyaf1.jpg

[Dantenoc]

good show :up:

[EM2(SS)]

Right on Cobalt! :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:


Fantastic pictorial there. Surface night attacks need a bit (well quite a bit) of planning, but can and do work. The best part about them is if you get the first one off and escape you can repeat it until the sun comes up. The only downfall is doing them with a VII is that you soon run out of torps. But at least you have a lot to show for it.:lol:

A thing I'd like to add is to come in decks awashed. I think this cuts down quite a bit on being visually detected. On a VII , 7 meter depth should do nicely.

Also before attacking watch the behavior of the flank escort. Many times they like to turn 90 degrees away from the convoy and shoot out 1000 to 2000 meters. Sometimes they also turn towards the aft end of the convoy for a bit before returning. This is a great time to make your dash toward some nice juicy merchants!

Once again thanks for the tutorial. I hope gets more kaeluns to give it a shot. By far the best part of SH3 is getting in close to a convoy at night on the surface sinkin 2 or 3 ships and getting away only seeing dim spot lights far away!

[TarJak]

Cobalt,

Nicely done. I'd agree with EM2 on coming in decks awash. It really does make you a bit more stealthy when trying to evade the escorts.

[cobalt]

i agree with the decks awash, thanks for pointing that out. When the sea is calm is the best time to do that though, otherwise you're underwater half the time :o

[Mooncatt]

nice read Cobalt. but very brave to attack on the surface :o

[Morts]

very nice read:up:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Impressive... but I wouldm't dare to do that. Too many bad experiences, when I raised my scope in a pitch black night and was spotted in 1940. :)

[melnibonian]

Good work:up:

If the weather conditions are favourable (dark, a bit of fog etc) attacks like this are possible and quite profitable. If the weather doesn't help it's a bit more difficult

[Woof1701]

Thanks Cobalt,

A turtorial on suface attacks is exactly what I wished for :)

I'm still a little confused on how to know when the escorts can see me or not. In AOTD you could easily attack on the surface with impunity as long as there was little fog. Was almost too easy :)

In GWX I tried a few times with partly overcast and completely overcast sky and light fog, but the escorts always pinned me with searchlights shortly after I saw them. Once I even had them on my tail in pitch black night and really dense fog. I could barely see 500 meters and suddenly a mechant came out of nowhere and everywhere around me the searchlights went on and two DEs headed directly for me. Pretty shocking experience.

So there are a few questions left for me to ask

1. The schematic you provided also implies that while going around the lead escort you have to show her the complete broad side. I'm really impressed that they won't detect you. How does that work?

2. When getting past the lead escort, can you normally see the merchants already or are they still in the fog or darkness?

3. Could you be a bit more specific at about what speed you would approach from the front?

4. Approx. How far away can the escorts spot me in light or medium fog?

5. Is it possible to attack at night if the sky's not overcast or worse if there's moonlight? Or is that a big nono?


Thanks a ton Cobalt!!

[melnibonian]

Generally speaking evry ship has a detection range, that depends on the weather conditions and the crew status (green, average elite etc). In GWX if you pass anything between 5-10Km from a DD (without radar) in a night and at decks awash there is no way you can be detected. That way you can actually sneak inside the convoy and position your boat whenever you want. The visibility of your crew and the enemy's depends heavily on the weather conditions, but as a rule of thumb you can see at least a couple of Kms further than they can, as your siluette in the sea is too small.

Fog conditions are a bit more tricky. Usually heavy fog means visibility of about 300-500m, which means that as soon as you see them they see you. Medium fog is about 1-2Km (at night) so you're still slightly into the darger zone. In those conditions you have to be ready to submerge as soon as possible (plus under water you have better 'visibility' due to the hydrophones)

Light Fog is almost like no fog so as long as you keep within the 5-8Km distance you're OK. In clear nights you can still follow the same pattern but you have to be a bit more careful as your wakes are more visible.

Another issue you have to be careful with is your speed. If you travel at high speed (10 knts and above) you raise quite a bit of wake and you make a lot of noise, so you can actually be picked up by the escorts before they have visual contact with you.

[Woof1701]

Thx melnibonian,

But how do I get past an escort into the convoy if I have to keep at least 5 km away? And won't the merchants see me as well if I get too close? Cobalt wrote something about getting to a distance of 800 meters. Even in medium fog I would be in the detection range of the ships.

The other thing is noise. The DD's hydrophones can't detect me when I'm on the surface, and I strongly believe that hearing a uboat at 5 km distance is absolutely impossible on a DD that's making a lot of noise as well.

[melnibonian]

If you noticed there are some circles around the DDs in the graph. I haven't made that post so I don't want to talk about it but if I speculate I will say that they indicate the minimum detection range of the DDs. What do I mean with that:

The fact that if you're 5Km away they don't see you doesn't mean that if you come closer they will automatically see you. So you can actually close in to very small distances without being seen. It takes a bit of experience and loads of luck to perfect the move but it can be done. That's why I talked about weather conditions. If the weather is favorable (heavy seas, night and a light fog) you can approach far closer that you would in calm seas conditions. If the fog is heavy you're basically as blind as they are.

Does this make sence? If not tell me and I will elaborate more

[Brag]

Good-looking technique.
This is doable and daring. What is the life expectancy for daring Kaleuns? :hmm:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

After winning a gun duel with 3 frigates yesterday night (100% GWX) I'm so cocky I'll probably not try to avoid escorts any more in my career. Till my death, and that's going to visit me soon...

Thanks for the tutorial, seems useful!

[Gezoes]

melnibonian (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=226245) is right. I slipped by a lead escort on the surface at less than 1500 meters in medium fog. Full speed towards the convoy.

Fog is your friend!!:know:

But stay on the bridge!

[Woof1701]

If you noticed there are some circles around the DDs in the graph. I haven't made that post so I don't want to talk about it but if I speculate I will say that they indicate the minimum detection range of the DDs. What do I mean with that:

The fact that if you're 5Km away they don't see you doesn't mean that if you come closer they will automatically see you. So you can actually close in to very small distances without being seen. It takes a bit of experience and loads of luck to perfect the move but it can be done. That's why I talked about weather conditions. If the weather is favorable (heavy seas, night and a light fog) you can approach far closer that you would in calm seas conditions. If the fog is heavy you're basically as blind as they are.

Does this make sence? If not tell me and I will elaborate more

Makes sense to me. However I was hoping for more precise figures to work with. :D I guess I'll set up a convoy mission and try around with that a bit so that I get some experience. As luck would have it in my career I'm just near a convoy in the evening on a stormy day with high seas and light fog. There's little water below me but there are only small merchants in the convoy so I had already decided to let it go because it's not worth the trouble. But for some tests it should work fine.

[melnibonian]

Actually I would attack in a different manner. I would try to sneak between Destroyers 2 and 4 (I used the original graph of Cobalt to make things quick)

By doing this you are almost invisible to DD 2 and visible only to DD 4 in the back of the convoy. Also if it's needed to submerge you're on the bafles of DD 2 so he cannot hear you.


http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8241/attackqe81iu7.jpg

There are some down sides with this form of attack though. You need to go quite fast to approach the convoy, so you're generating quite a bit of noise and wakes. Also you most probably have to fire from longer distances (2-3Km instead of 500m-1Km in Cobalt case) as the convoy moves away quite quickly and your window of oportunity closes. The good thing about this approach is that practically all DDs cannot fire at you the moment they spot you so you have some precious minutes to dive fast and deep to avoid them.

Obviously it all depends on the original position you have with respect to the convoy. If you're towards the front then Cobalt's original idea is optimum otherwise you might spent precious time trying to reposition yourself. If the convoy is in a different position then my variation can actually do the trick. You have to be careful though as after 1939-40 these kind of attacks are quite dangerous.

[Mooncatt]

surely real life captains didnt do this sort of thing...right:o

[melnibonian]

Makes sense to me. However I was hoping for more precise figures to work with. :D I guess I'll set up a convoy mission and try around with that a bit so that I get some experience. As luck would have it in my career I'm just near a convoy in the evening on a stormy day with high seas and light fog. There's little water below me but there are only small merchants in the convoy so I had already decided to let it go because it's not worth the trouble. But for some tests it should work fine.
I know what you mean, but precise figures are difficult as they all depend on the weather conditions and the sea state. I would say that if the sea is calm (we talk night always here) and there is no (or light) fog don't go closer than 1.5-2 Km from a DD. If the sea is rough you can cut another 500-800m from the above distance. If the fog is medium and the sea is rough you can close the distance to 1 Km but it still cutting it very thin. Try these as a rule of thumb and always remember it's not just the distance from the DD that matters, it's also the weather and the position of your boat with respect to the DD. So if you're behind or towards the back and you show a small area of your boat you can get away in close distances.

[melnibonian]

surely real life captains didnt do this sort of thing...right:o
I'm affraid they did http://www.uboataces.com/tactics-surfaced.shtml

[Mooncatt]

lol well bugger that i aint doing it ill get myself killed without a doubt :nope:

[melnibonian]

lol well bugger that i aint doing it ill get myself killed without a doubt :nope:
Surface attacks are very VERY dangerous but also very VERY profitable;) . It's your call after that:D

[Iron Budokan]

This was very informative. Thanks! :)

[cobalt]

Thanks Cobalt,

A turtorial on suface attacks is exactly what I wished for :)

I'm still a little confused on how to know when the escorts can see me or not. In AOTD you could easily attack on the surface with impunity as long as there was little fog. Was almost too easy :)

In GWX I tried a few times with partly overcast and completely overcast sky and light fog, but the escorts always pinned me with searchlights shortly after I saw them. Once I even had them on my tail in pitch black night and really dense fog. I could barely see 500 meters and suddenly a mechant came out of nowhere and everywhere around me the searchlights went on and two DEs headed directly for me. Pretty shocking experience.

So there are a few questions left for me to ask

1. The schematic you provided also implies that while going around the lead escort you have to show her the complete broad side. I'm really impressed that they won't detect you. How does that work?

2. When getting past the lead escort, can you normally see the merchants already or are they still in the fog or darkness?

3. Could you be a bit more specific at about what speed you would approach from the front?

4. Approx. How far away can the escorts spot me in light or medium fog?

5. Is it possible to attack at night if the sky's not overcast or worse if there's moonlight? Or is that a big nono?


Thanks a ton Cobalt!!

1 - Yep, you show a complete broadside. Yesterday I was playing and got very very close to the lead escort, close enough to see him well without binoculars ( sorry i didnt get the range). It was heavy seas and medium fog. he must have seen me for a quick second because i did get very close to him, so he sent up a couple star shells far aft of me but never spotted me.

2 - Once the escort passes your side, you should be able to see the columns

3 - I usually approach at standard speed untill i get passed the lead escort, then i put on some battle music and crank my engines full.

4 - ive gotten very close, probably 2500 - 3000 meters or so

5 - its possible but its tricky, try to sneak behind that lead escort very slowly with your decks awashed.

[cobalt]

Thx melnibonian,

But how do I get past an escort into the convoy if I have to keep at least 5 km away? And won't the merchants see me as well if I get too close? Cobalt wrote something about getting to a distance of 800 meters. Even in medium fog I would be in the detection range of the ships.
The merchants have differant visual detection ranges, you can let off eels at 800m - 1000m away from them with no detection.

[EM2(SS)]

Actually I would attack in a different manner. I would try to sneak between Destroyers 2 and 4 (I used the original graph of Cobalt to make things quick)

By doing this you are almost invisible to DD 2 and visible only to DD 4 in the back of the convoy. Also if it's needed to submerge you're on the bafles of DD 2 so he cannot hear you.


http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8241/attackqe81iu7.jpg

There are some down sides with this form of attack though. You need to go quite fast to approach the convoy, so you're generating quite a bit of noise and wakes. Also you most probably have to fire from longer distances (2-3Km instead of 500m-1Km in Cobalt case) as the convoy moves away quite quickly and your window of oportunity closes. The good thing about this approach is that practically all DDs cannot fire at you the moment they spot you so you have some precious minutes to dive fast and deep to avoid them.

Obviously it all depends on the original position you have with respect to the convoy. If you're towards the front then Cobalt's original idea is optimum otherwise you might spent precious time trying to reposition yourself. If the convoy is in a different position then my variation can actually do the trick. You have to be careful though as after 1939-40 these kind of attacks are quite dangerous.

Great post Menlibonian!:yep:

I like to go in between DD1 and DD2 normally. However, i just caught up to a convoy and dawn was coming soon. Going in between DD2 and DD4 worked like a champ! The advantage of being in DD2's baffles is pretty good. Also in many 1940/41 convoys only the lead escort is a DD, the side and rear escorts are Flowers or Blackswans. Personally I'd rather sneek in by a corvette than a DD that has much more gunnery.

Another disadvantage would be having to settle for a higher angle shot. I usually like to shoot from 2km out(depending on visibility and weather of course). For a frontal convoy attack they hit almost square on, but from the back end its usually a high angle meaning using magnetic exploders.

Oh and one more thing!(sorry to drag this on) If possible attack the side of the convoy gaurded by a Flower (if the sea conditions are calm). They only can do 16knts and there guns dont seem to be too effective over 3km or so. Just out run the Tommies! (or Canuck!)

[Ducimus]

surely real life captains didnt do this sort of thing...right:o

Oh yes. Approach it right and you can get away with bloody murder. Espeically in a type9. Ive had convoys where i attacked them 3 times in one evening. Never diving once, and never being detected. The trick is to be getting out of dodge before your torpedos hit. Although tubes 5 and 6 are usually a little late to the party, but they make a showing, sometimes with spectacular results :smug: