GWX's "uber" AI demystified

[Ducimus]

A common complaint with GWX is that the AI is too hard or Uber. I really feel this is borne out of a lack of understanding how the AI works. I'm not going to bombard you with a lot of detailed information, just a basic gist of how it functions, so we don't have too many people becoming members of the "2nd patrol club". :88)


The Tin can itself as it applies to detection:
The Destroyer (DD) or Destroyer Escort (DE), can only do one of two things. It can listen (passive), and it can ping (active). What it can't do, is both at once. Hence I feel its a safe assumption to say, if a Tin can is pinging, hes not listening, and if hes not pinging he's listening. ;) Two important note's here to eliminate confusion:

A.) with multiple escorts on you, there is ALWAYS somebody listening.

B.) The AI tends to key in on whichever sensor is recieving the biggest signiture there is to pick up on. While it can only use passive or active at a singular moment in time, it can switch between the very quickly.


Active sonar, or being pinged:
- something the AI wont do unless you allow it!

There are several types of sonar, and they all differ in geometric statistcs. Each one becoming a bit more effective then the previous version. From all ive been able to tell, the AI will not ping you unless:

A.) You are in his active sonar cone.
b.) You are presenting him a favorable aspect
c.) You are doing both A, and B for X number of seconds.

An illustration of this in action is a typical convoy attack where your sitting ahead of the convoy at a dead stop, and yet that lead escort still manages to ping you. In that scenario you did A, B, and C.


To understand the sonar cone you have understand three primary aspects as it pertains to its size and shape.

- They have a downward angle. The more downward angle they have, the deeper they can detect things. Naturally late war sonar has more downard angle then early war sonar.

- They have a maximum range.

- They have a maximum width or radius.

Early war Sonar:
- So easy to avoid, it feels like cheating
So for an illustration, heres a picture of an early war sonar in action:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/early_war_sonar.jpg
Note that its limited in range, and doesnt have much of a downward angle. Hence it doesnt go very deep.

Sub A:
Is not only out of the sonars range, but he's below the sonars cone, floating saftely along at around 200 meters or maybe a touch deeper. (drawings are not to scale). Active sonar for him is a complete non factor. He will never hear not so much as a single ping out of the escort at all. Even if he falls within the sonars range, because he's below it, it will still not hear any pinging at all.

Sub B:
This fellow is probably around 170 meters or so, or even shallower. Note that if he went deeper, he'd be under the sonars cone, joining his comrade A in the saftey of the depths. Or likewise he could simply move towards the escort as it's coming at him, hence getting under the cone at a shallower depth then sub A.

Sub C:
At his depth he would be within the destroyers active sonar cone, but due to the angle of the beam, hes in effect, in the destroyers blind spot. This is standard to any sonar in any year of the war. A destroyer looses active sonar contact when hes about upon you. At this poin't he'll try and either regain contact on passive sonar, or launch an attack at your last known position - which is what they typically will do.


The obvious solution early war is to dive to around 230 meters or so and stay quiet as a mouse. Pretty simple no?

Late war sonar:
- Now we have the payoff
Now lets spice things up a little and look at a later war active sonar in relation to the previous example:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/late_war_sonar.jpg
At this stage in the war, life has most certainly gotten complicated for you. In red you'll see the old early war sonar. The darker red represents the late war sonar.

Sub A:
Our smart fellow from the early war will now find that he is not only being detected, but is being detected from a fair distance. However, if he goes DEEPER, he'll find that as the tin can approaches him, he'll stopped being pinged much sooner then the other subs.

Sub B:
This fellow, didnt quite change his tactics from earlier in the war and is finding himself being pinged much sooner, for much longer.

Sub C:
Although hes in the tin cans blindspot, because he wasnt at the absolute maximum depth hes boat can obtain, the tin can's been pinging him for a good long time and probably has a pretty damn good fix on him.

Again, the obvious answer to late war sonar is,
"yes, Deeper still!"


Aspect
- Presenting yourself as a smaller target
The last item i should cover on active sonar his the width of the beam and aspect. Simply put:

http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/top_down.JPG

Aspect is simply how much of your boat your presenting to the AI to get a ping off of. Or in other words, your profile. Obviously pointing your bow or stern at an escort is give the escort less of your submarine to get an active sonar ping. Giving your broadsides to an escort is basically saying, "Please sir, can i have another?"

Active sonar out of the way, it's time to hear that pin drop.

Passive sonar
- pretending to be a big hole in the water

What could i possibly tell you about passive sonar, your probably wondering. Go to 1kt and go to silent running right? Well.... yeah, but theres a bit more to it then that.

The AI's ability to hear you depends on a few things:

A.) The state of the sea.
If the sea is calm, sonar conditions are greatly improved. If the sea is rough, sonar conditions are craptastic to say the least, and for you, this is good news.

b.) Engine RPMS.
It's not your speed per say that the AI qeues in on. Its your engines RPMs. When setting your speed, use the interior free cam and take a close look at your engines RPMS. 100 RPMs is usually the maximum i would go in a silent running scenario.

c.) Your position in relation to the escort. Looking back up at the picture of the aspect, you'll see a big semicircle around the destroyer. The area behind it, is its deafspot, or its baffeles. Its also deaf to anything DIRECTLY under it, at or around a radius of 10 meters. Depth charge attacks DO NOT mask your noise. Only when an escort is directly above you, or if you are directly behind an escort are you completely safe to use as many RPM's in your motors as your heart desires.


Shallow water and wind:
- Taking calculated risks, or why descretion is the better part of valor.

Remember, you have the element of surpise, and dictate the terms of when and where an attack will happen. Before executing an attack the first two things that should pop into your mind before you even begin open the outer doors is, how much water do i have under my keel and how rough is the sea?

A sad truth here is that shallow water can kill you no matter what year of the war it is, and no matter what AI settings the mod your using has. Even STOCK AI, is deadly in shallow water. Avoid it if possible.

Calm seas are also a concern. If you execute an attack on a well escorted target in calm seas in shallow water, you pretty much took an unnecceessary risk.

Conversly, an attack in shallow waters in rough sea's could be an acceptable risk. It is up to you, the commander of that submarine to make that decision. Heres a quote for you:

"He was prudent. If there was a danger that threatned the crew or the boat he would go out of the way to avoid it without forgetting why he was there in the first place. Yet he was not over-cautious. We sank ships with Mohle"





CONTACT!!!
- Or, why you need to disappear for a little while.

In terms of Escort evasion, you need to be able to avoid letting the AI get a passive or active sonar contact on you for an X number of mins. In GWX, that time is 30 mins game time. It is important to note that during this time the AI will be doing everything it can to reaquire contact!

But thats not your only concern. Anytime an enemy unit makes contact with you. Either visually, on radar, sonar, what have you, it broadcasts your presence to any other unit in the area. This includes planes.

This means that any enemy war unit that is within 30 mins distance to your location will come looking for you. An example of this is say you have just attacked a convoy, 3 out of 4 escots have given up and rejoined the convoy, but that persistant 4th escort is still looking for you, and gets a contact. What you'll see then is the other 3 escorts immediatly start steaming to your location, but if your 35 mins away, they'll turn around and go back to the convoy, even if only 5 mins distance away - unless that 4th escort makes another contact. :roll:

So what the hell do i do if i have multiple escorts camping out up top?

That i beileve is completly situational, depending on year of war, number of escorts, and the state of the sea. More often then not, you may just have to wait them out, staying as deep and as silent as possible. I can say this though, with the knowledge of how AI detection works, ive been sunk by depth charges once.. maybe twice, in well over a year playing SH3. I worry about planes more then i worry about depth charges, hedgehogs however are top on my list of things i dont like :88)

One last thing:
Thermal layers
- or why using SH3 commander can save your ass if all else fails.

One thing i nearly forgot to mention was thermal layers. In short, its a temperature gradiant in the water that active sonar can't get by.

Looking at active late war sonar again:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/thermal.jpg

By default, the AI sensors in SH3 cannot detect anything beyond 300 meters. Infact, depth charges will not decend beyond that point as well. They just POOF, and vanish into thin air without detionation. So if your modding your boat to dive deeper then 300 meters, you sort of cheating your ass off. However, put in the context of a thermal layer above 300 meters where depth charges can still explode, you have a historical way to make things a bit easier for you.

Although i personally don't use this option, one nice thing about SH3 commander is it can randomize the maximum depth the AI sensors can go. Default is 300 meters. But since its randomzied, you don't know WHERE exactly this simulated thermal layer will be, you only will know that it exists. Every time you launch SH3 via Sh3 comamnder it will randomize a new maximum depth for the AI's sensors. So, if you allow it, it will constanatly change, thereby keeping you guessing.

The blue line in the above picture could be an example of SH3 commander changing the max depth of Sensors. Where as now Sub A is again below the active sonar cone, and safe from being pinged.

This has been long reading im sure, and longer in typing. I hope it helps.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Thanks a lot for this. Marvellous.

[Letum]

:up: Top post!

[vodkavera]

It helpt a lot!
Thank you for your interesting post!

/VV

[danlisa]

Very well put mate, I hope this will finally help people to cope with the DD's a little better. Spot on.:yep::up:

And yet again you have astounded me with your skills in paint.:up::rotfl:

Thanks.

[melnibonian]

Thank you very much for this. Top quality and valuable information as usuall:up:

Let's hope that after this people will accept that DDs in GWX can be avoided and enjoy the game:yep: :D

[Kumando]

That means a DD is pinging me and i can run on flank and he wont be able to listen to me? :huh:

[IRONxMortlock]

That means a DD is pinging me and i can run on flank and he wont be able to listen to me? :huh:

Apartently. But keep in mind other escorts nearby may be able to hear you very well.

Thanks very much for the guide Ducimus! Well explained and illustrated.:know:

Every time you launch SH3 via Sh3 comamnder it will randomize a new maximum depth for the AI's sensors. So, if you allow it, it will constanatly change, thereby keeping you guessing.

Does this happen automatically everytime I load with SH3C? I had a look through all the menus in SH3C and couldn't find it as an option.
________
XSexyKittenX (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/XSexyKittenX/)

[Kumando]

That means a DD is pinging me and i can run on flank and he wont be able to listen to me? :huh:

Apartently. But keep in mind other escorts nearby may be able to hear you very well.

Thanks very much for the guide Ducimus! Well explained and illustrated.:know:

Every time you launch SH3 via Sh3 comamnder it will randomize a new maximum depth for the AI's sensors. So, if you allow it, it will constanatly change, thereby keeping you guessing.

Does this happen automatically everytime I load with SH3C? I had a look through all the menus in SH3C and couldn't find it as an option.

I wish i didint red these thread before i think in reality they could both listen and ping therefore this is a bug/exploit/cheat that should be fixed:o. Sailor Steve can you confirm this?

[danlisa]

Does this happen automatically everytime I load with SH3C? I had a look through all the menus in SH3C and couldn't find it as an option.

Yes it does, you'll find details/setting for the Thermals in the SH3Cmdr progam folder. IIRC it's in the random setting cfg.

I wish i didint red these thread before i think in reality they could both listen and ping therefore this is a bug/exploit/cheat that should be fixed:o. Sailor Steve can you confirm this?

In reality they pinged and listened for the return, this way they could work out your position/depth.

What Ducimus is saying (if I'm right) is that due to the limitations of the SH3 AI coding the DD's in SH3 can only do one at a time. However, if they are pinging you, it's a good bet that they know where you are. The AI is hardcoded and cannot be fixed without a SDK from UBI. Such is life.

[Kumando]

Does this happen automatically everytime I load with SH3C? I had a look through all the menus in SH3C and couldn't find it as an option.

Yes it does, you'll find details/setting for the Thermals in the SH3Cmdr progam folder. IIRC it's in the random setting cfg.

I wish i didint red these thread before i think in reality they could both listen and ping therefore this is a bug/exploit/cheat that should be fixed:o. Sailor Steve can you confirm this?

In reality they pinged and listened for the return, this way they could work out your position/depth.

What Ducimus is saying (if I'm right) is that due to the limitations of the SH3 AI coding the DD's in SH3 can only do one at a time. However, if they are pinging you, it's a good bet that they know where you are. The AI is hardcoded and cannot be fixed without a SDK from UBI. Such is life.

Then he shouldn´t have said that because its an exploit.

[Gavilan]

Thanks for this guide, it's really useful. Much appreciated. :up:

[Mooncatt]

brilliant post really helpful. should be a sticky imo :up:

[joea]

Ducimus you wrote:
Depth charge attacks DO NOT mask your noise.

Too bad...and one thing about hiding in the baffles, there still might be another escort able to hear you when you are in another's blind spot. That is why I "cheated" with freecam during the single missions (I consider them training) when I first got GWX or SH3 for that matter to observe escort behaviour a bit.

[Kumando]

Thanks for this guide, it's really useful. Much appreciated. :up:

Useful for cheating.:down:

[Myxale]

Thanx Ducimus!:rock:

It was just like in Navy School!

[joea]

Thanks for this guide, it's really useful. Much appreciated. :up:

Useful for cheating.:down:

:roll: Going in the baffles in cheating right. Anyway I "think" listening for a sonar return is not the same as using the hydrophone to listen for the noises of the sub plus (this is from my DC days :oops: ) I think they used a scope to check the return and were not actually counting seconds for the ping. Will look into it at home.

[Gavilan]

Thanks for this guide, it's really useful. Much appreciated. :up:
Useful for cheating.:down:

Cheating to you maybe, but each to their own... I personally can't see how this guide is a cheat or exploit.

Anyway since it's mainly a single player game surely if you do cheat the only person being cheated is yourself? :hmm:

[ref]

That means a DD is pinging me and i can run on flank and he wont be able to listen to me? :huh:

No, what he means is that it if it's pinging you it doesn't matter if you're going flank, as he's emmiting an active signal he can detect you no matter what speed you're doing, the asdic (active sonar) emmits a high frecuency sound that transmits through the water, when it reaches your sub it reflects in you hull and returns, the asdic operator is listening and measuring the time elapsed between the emited sound and the echo he can get a fix on the distance and bearing of your sub, the asdic is not affected as much as the hydrophone by the hunter speed, that's why they can make a run for you at high speed, while his companions keep a low speed listening to the hydrophones.

Ref

[Gavilan]

Thanks for clearing that up ref, glad using this guide is not considered cheating. ;)

[mookiemookie]

Cheating? :roll:

Excellent post, very well written! Thank you for this.

[Jazer]

Danke, Herr Kaleun!

[ref]

Just take into account that because you hear the pings it doesn't mean they have detected you with the asdic, just that they suspect that you're in the vicinity , either because they hear you in the hydrophones or they'd spoted your periscope and then they switch to their most acurate sensor to get a hard fix on you, the only real indicator that they've precisely located the sub is when they accelerate to make a DC run, if you go ahead flank and they're just trying to figure out where the hell are you then you're just telling them "hey I'm here"...

Ref

[Kumando]

Cheating? :roll:

Excellent post, very well written! Thank you for this.

I will try next time im in a "cat and mouse" with a DD but if Ducimus means it right he is pinging than not listening you go flank and he will not hear you thats not real so it can be considered a cheat right?

[Lanzfeld]

Does SH-3 Commander also randomize the amount of time the escorts spend looking for me in GWX everytime I start the game like random thermal layers? Up to 45 minutes?

[hyperion2206]

Cheating? :roll:

Excellent post, very well written! Thank you for this.
I will try next time im in a "cat and mouse" with a DD but if Ducimus means it right he is pinging than not listening you go flank and he will not hear you thats not real so it can be considered a cheat right?

Again: If a destroyer starts pinging it knows you're around. The chances are high that he picked you up via hydrophones and got an estimated course. The the destroyer uses ASDIC and probably find you. To me that's no cheating.:|\\:arrgh!:

[AVGWarhawk]

DUCIMUS......"common complaint with GWX is that the AI is too hard or Uber. I really feel this is borne out of a lack of understanding how the AI works. I'm not going to bombard you with a lot of detailed information, just a basic gist of how it functions, so we don't have too many people becoming members of the "2nd patrol club". :88)"


Hey, that hurt!!!! I'm recruiting for my club and you come up with this????? Thats it, you are not getting an honorary membership and I do not care how much you have donated to the cause.....:nope:. Good day, Sir!!!!......your off my Christmas list as of today.


The AI are not to hard. It is just that everyone refuses to be challenged:D!

[ref]

I will try next time im in a "cat and mouse" with a DD but if Ducimus means it right he is pinging than not listening you go flank and he will not hear you thats not real so it can be considered a cheat right?

Please read my previous post, if he's pinging you he's not listening with the hydrophones, he's locating you with the asdic, if you go flank he'll still be tracking you, and it's not cheating, that's what happen in real life, the advantage you have is that when he's making a DC run you can go flank for a few moments after he passes your position without giving up your position, but that only works if there's only one ship chasing you, if there are more one of them is always at low speed tracking you with the hydrophones.

Ref

[scalelokt]

I have one question. In the original post you said that if you are sitting still waiting for a convoy and get pinged you probably stayed in one place for X number of minutes inside the sonar cone of a DD right? I guess I'm just curious, if you are submerged and dead quiet, how are they knowing to ping you in the first place? Do they just ping ever other minute to see if something is there all the time? Guess thats one thing I never understood, if I'm at a dead stop and submerged and get pinged out of nowhere, how did they even know to ping, they didnt know I was there to begin with. Hope that makes sense.

[AVGWarhawk]

I have one question. In the original post you said that if you are sitting still waiting for a convoy and get pinged you probably stayed in one place for X number of minutes inside the sonar cone of a DD right? I guess I'm just curious, if you are submerged and dead quiet, how are they knowing to ping you in the first place? Do they just ping ever other minute to see if something is there all the time? Guess thats one thing I never understood, if I'm at a dead stop and submerged and get pinged out of nowhere, how did they even know to ping, they didnt know I was there to begin with. Hope that makes sense.

They always made sweeps with sonar. I do not believe the pinged all the time but if sonar makes a contact the a ping would be in order to help get a better location on the uboat.

[Iron Budokan]

Excellent post. Good work.

[Woof1701]

Hi Ducimus,

Really excellent post. Since I was never one to complain about the DDs sonar capabilities but about their visual abilities I have a favor to ask:

How does the visual system work. I constantly have problems shadowing convoys and attacking them on the surface at night. Even with really bad weather. And I even had my scope spotted several times when I was literally miles away.

Thanks a lot.

[Brag]

Excellent post, Ducimus. The ilustrations sure help in visualizing the problem and the escort's limitations. The good U-boat captain will take advantage of the knowledge gained.

Thanks!!:up: :up: :up:

[Ducimus]

That means a DD is pinging me and i can run on flank and he wont be able to listen to me? :huh:

No, what he means is that it if it's pinging you it doesn't matter if you're going flank, as he's emmiting an active signal he can detect you no matter what speed you're doing, the asdic (active sonar) emmits a high frecuency sound that transmits through the water, when it reaches your sub it reflects in you hull and returns, the asdic operator is listening and measuring the time elapsed between the emited sound and the echo he can get a fix on the distance and bearing of your sub, the asdic is not affected as much as the hydrophone by the hunter speed, that's why they can make a run for you at high speed, while his companions keep a low speed listening to the hydrophones.

Ref

Thanks ref :up:

EDIT:
Just take into account that because you hear the pings it doesn't mean they have detected you with the asdic, just that they suspect that you're in the vicinity , either because they hear you in the hydrophones or they'd spoted your periscope and then they switch to their most acurate sensor to get a hard fix on you, the only real indicator that they've precisely located the sub is when they accelerate to make a DC run, if you go ahead flank and they're just trying to figure out where the hell are you then you're just telling them "hey I'm here"...

Ref

This is also true. In some instances you'll still get a "we're being pinged sir", because the sonar is being pointed in your general direction, but it doesnt mean they have a hard fix on you... yet. Some quirk with the WE ive never been able to understand.

edit:

Ref's the man!

Please read my previous post, if he's pinging you he's not listening with the hydrophones, he's locating you with the asdic, if you go flank he'll still be tracking you, and it's not cheating, that's what happen in real life, the advantage you have is that when he's making a DC run you can go flank for a few moments after he passes your position without giving up your position, but that only works if there's only one ship chasing you, if there are more one of them is always at low speed tracking you with the hydrophones.

Ref

With multiple escorts on you, there is ALWAYS at least one that is listening for you.

[fredbass]

I'm sure many players still aren't aware that lowering your speed at silent running to 2k will make a big difference and therefore probably haven't added the Dec. 23 fix either, for one reason or another. I've found that once that is accomplished, there is nothing exceptionally tough about avoiding damage, as long as I have some depth to work with and the war is still in a fairly early point in time. :yep:

And remember what Ducimus has showed you. It can be an advantage to run at a shallower depth to keep your acute angle towards a ship at a minimum, if possible.

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

There are several types of sonar, and they all differ in geometric statistcs. Each one becoming a bit more effective then the previous version. From all ive been able to tell, the AI will not ping you unless:

A.) You are in his active sonar cone.
b.) You are presenting him a favorable aspect
c.) You are doing both A, and B for X number of seconds.

Excellent post Ducimus! Although this is something I've gradually intuited over many months it's still an excellent reference for me, and I'm sure valuable to both old and new alike. Thanks and appreciation for the time you spent on this!

One thing I wanted to point out, though. There have been more than a few occassions where I've had tin cans start pinging, even though I'm several hundred to over a thousand meters directly behind them. I'm certainly not in their active sonar cone at that point.

I think what happens is that an escort won't, without any reason, just begin actively pinging unless your doing A, B and C (which is how I'm interpreting your post). However, once they've twigged onto a U-boat in the vicinity, or have lost passive contact with you for a number of minutes, they'll start actively pinging seeking to re-acquire contact again.

In that situation, simply hearing pings doesn't mean they are getting an echo from you. It is, though, a very good indication that they are serious about finding your butt. :D

Again, kudos and appreciation for your work!

[Ducimus]

One thing I wanted to point out, though. There have been more than a few occassions where I've had tin cans start pinging, even though I'm several hundred to over a thousand meters directly behind them. I'm certainly not in their active sonar cone at that point.

I think what happens is that an escort won't, without any reason, just begin actively pinging unless your doing A, B and C (which is how I'm interpreting your post). However, once they've twigged onto a U-boat in the vicinity, or have lost passive contact with you for a number of minutes, they'll start actively pinging seeking to re-acquire contact again.



Thanks for reminding me about this. What is going on is their on an "alert" state having detected a uboat. And will be that way until the lost contact time has expired, which is 30 mins.

[Ducimus]

DUCIMUS......"common complaint with GWX is that the AI is too hard or Uber. I really feel this is borne out of a lack of understanding how the AI works. I'm not going to bombard you with a lot of detailed information, just a basic gist of how it functions, so we don't have too many people becoming members of the "2nd patrol club". :88)"


Hey, that hurt!!!! I'm recruiting for my club and you come up with this????? Thats it, you are not getting an honorary membership and I do not care how much you have donated to the cause.....:nope:. Good day, Sir!!!!......your off my Christmas list as of today.


The AI are not to hard. It is just that everyone refuses to be challenged:D!

LOL i wondered if if you were gonna catch that. I figured id poke some good natured fun your way. :D

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

One thing I wanted to point out, though. There have been more than a few occassions where I've had tin cans start pinging, even though I'm several hundred to over a thousand meters directly behind them. I'm certainly not in their active sonar cone at that point.

I think what happens is that an escort won't, without any reason, just begin actively pinging unless your doing A, B and C (which is how I'm interpreting your post). However, once they've twigged onto a U-boat in the vicinity, or have lost passive contact with you for a number of minutes, they'll start actively pinging seeking to re-acquire contact again.



Thanks for reminding me about this. What is going on is their on an "alert" state having detected a uboat. And will be that way until the lost contact time has expired, which is 30 mins.

No prob. :) This is dayuhm impressive Ducimus!

[Ducimus]

No prob. :) This is dayuhm impressive Ducimus!

Well its not like i figured it ALL out on my own. I did alot of research into detection, but as i recall it was Cmdr Gibs that explained the geometry of active sonar to me when things weren't quite clicking. Once it was explained to me, everything cemented in.

[AVGWarhawk]

DUCIMUS......"common complaint with GWX is that the AI is too hard or Uber. I really feel this is borne out of a lack of understanding how the AI works. I'm not going to bombard you with a lot of detailed information, just a basic gist of how it functions, so we don't have too many people becoming members of the "2nd patrol club". :88)"


Hey, that hurt!!!! I'm recruiting for my club and you come up with this????? Thats it, you are not getting an honorary membership and I do not care how much you have donated to the cause.....:nope:. Good day, Sir!!!!......your off my Christmas list as of today.


The AI are not to hard. It is just that everyone refuses to be challenged:D!
LOL i wondered if if you were gonna catch that. I figured id poke some good natured fun your way. :D


I know!!!! It's a hoot:rotfl::rotfl:Well written for the boys:rock: and I think all have a good grasp on what they are up against. GWX was not made to be easy because the real thing was not easy. BTW you still are not getting the free membership:nope:

[GT182]

Excellent work Ducimus... as always! :up:

Now a couple of questions. How does DD AI know where you are after a torpedo launch, especially if it's a Type II electric? [I can understand a Type I steam as it leaves bubbles and makes noise.] Is it from sound it makes or your sub they pick up on? I've seen that no matter how far away you are they always head to where the fish was fired from... be it 3000 meters, or 2200 meters as in you photos. And the speed of my sub is at 1 or 2kts... usually 1kt and "Silent Running". When I'm in position and ready to launch, it's always a Type II electric for the "surprise" effect, and it sure wakes 'em up in a hurry too. LOL

AVG... we already belong to the best club there is.... SubSim. Why start another? Just picking on ya mate. ;)

[Ducimus]

BTW you still are not getting the free membership:nope:

I'd have to be sunk on my 2nd patrol for that :P

No, you know what happends to my career games? I get bored and start over with a new one. Im about a hairs breadth away from deleting my U-64 career game in 1940 and startng a new game in 42. For some reason these days, i have a hard time sticking to a career. The U-125 career thats listed in my sig, i decided to use SH3 commander to end it in a graceful way because i was tempted to delete it and start over with a new game again. I seem to have a problem with this.

[AVGWarhawk]

BTW you still are not getting the free membership:nope:
I'd have to be sunk on my 2nd patrol for that :P

No, you know what happends to my career games? I get bored and start over with a new one. Im about a hairs breadth away from deleting my U-64 career game in 1940 and startng a new game in 42. For some reason these days, i have a hard time sticking to a career. The U-125 career thats listed in my sig, i decided to use SH3 commander to end it in a graceful way because i was tempted to delete it and start over with a new game again. I seem to have a problem with this.

I have no problem sticking to careers......they are so short:smug: :rotfl::rotfl:Actually I'm on patrol 4 in 1941. It is about to get uglier:o

[ref]

Excellent work Ducimus... as always! :up:

Now a couple of questions. How does DD AI know where you are after a torpedo launch, especially if it's a Type II electric? [I can understand a Type I steam as it leaves bubbles and makes noise.] Is it from sound it makes or your sub they pick up on? I've seen that no matter how far away you are they always head to where the fish was fired from... be it 3000 meters, or 2200 meters as in you photos. And the speed of my sub is at 1 or 2kts... usually 1kt and "Silent Running". When I'm in position and ready to launch, it's always a Type II electric for the "surprise" effect, and it sure wakes 'em up in a hurry too. LOL

AVG... we already belong to the best club there is.... SubSim. Why start another? Just picking on ya mate. ;)
I'm not sure about how the game models it, but the high speed screws from a torpedo (either steam or electric) produces a high pitch sound that can be heard from a long distance, both for the pitch and the volume, don't forget that it's travelling at 28+ knots.

Ref

[Woof1701]

Hi Ducimus,
Seems you overlooked my last post. So I just repeat it here :)


Really excellent post. Since I was never one to complain about the DDs sonar capabilities but about their visual abilities I have a favor to ask:

How does the visual system work. I constantly have problems shadowing convoys and attacking them on the surface at night. Even with really bad weather. And I even had my scope spotted several times when I was literally miles away.

Thanks a lot.

[Ducimus]

How does DD AI know where you are after a torpedo launch, especially if it's a Type II electric?


I can't give you a positive answer on this. THeres alot of small things where it feels like SH3 is sort of cheating the player. Honestly i think the AI is sort of guided by the game to the general vacinity, and the AI's sensors take over from there. Of course this doesnt explain all the times when you launch a torpedo and the AI just doesnt know where the hell to look.

From my own experience what i do primarly after launching a torpedo is to not panic. Early war ill stay up top at periscope depth to watch the fun, and, as silent as i can allow, put the dive planes in normal dive, aim the boat towards the escort and drift downward. I typically wont increase speed unless i hear him speed up, he starts pinging, or gets VERY close. Remember, once you increase RPM's your basically unzipping your fly. Even if he gets very close, ill sometimes not crash dive depending on the escorts disposition. Just remaining calm and let the boat drift down maintaining a small profile. Im very rarely detected doing this, but it is something of a teeth clenching gamble at times. If your wrong about the escorts disposition to you, you just made a mistake. Likewise if you crash dive right away to get to saftey depths, you just made a mistake by saying " Here i am come get me!"

Late war is i different story, ill shoot my fish, then IMMEDIATLY start drifting downward to as silent as i can allow to get a head start before the fish impact. The trick is to find the right speed. Too fast and you unzip your fly. Too slow and your going to be a little bit too close to the surface. Its a balancing act, and its greatly dependant on the state of the sea.

[scalelokt]

Thanks for answering the question, makes total sense. An excellent post, thanks so much for taking the time to get this together for us.

[Ducimus]

Hi Ducimus,
Seems you overlooked my last post. So I just repeat it here :)


Really excellent post. Since I was never one to complain about the DDs sonar capabilities but about their visual abilities I have a favor to ask:

How does the visual system work. I constantly have problems shadowing convoys and attacking them on the surface at night. Even with really bad weather. And I even had my scope spotted several times when I was literally miles away.

Thanks a lot.



That i havent got quite nailed down yet, but ill tell you the bits that i comprehend.

- The AI has the same max visual range that you do.

- Weather, and state of the sea effect the maximum visual distance the AI can see.

- Time of day effects the max visual distance for the AI (IE, day vs night)

- Your profile or aspect effects the AI's ability to see you. Again, bow's on or as close to it as your attack approach allows. Broadside is a no no. Turning on your heel to shoot your rear torpedos, this is always a concern.

- Your surface speed effects the AI's ability to visuall detect you. If your running a night surface attack at flank speed, the odds are theyll notice vs running in at 1/3rd or standard.

- The closer you get, the greater their visual acuity. Personnaly i get no closer then about 2600 to 3000 meters, and only if i keep my profile small, and my speed low, at night.

edit:
When it comes to radar, all bets are off with visual detection.

[Jimbuna]

I'm sure many players still aren't aware that lowering your speed at silent running to 2k will make a big difference and therefore probably haven't added the Dec. 23 fix either, for one reason or another. I've found that once that is accomplished, there is nothing exceptionally tough about avoiding damage, as long as I have some depth to work with and the war is still in a fairly early point in time. :yep:

And remember what Ducimus has showed you. It can be an advantage to run at a shallower depth to keep your acute angle towards a ship at a minimum, if possible.

Precisely....try to demonstrate a little patience ans self restraint. In real life it could take many hours or even a day+ for the game of 'cat and mouse' to come to an end. :yep:

[Mooncatt]

sorry to "butt" in to the nice flow of posts here but i would like to ask how deep a boat can dive in gwx?? is it the same as stock or different. i ask coz on the diagrams he shows a u-boat down at 300 which aint possible in the stock game

[GT182]

Thanks Ref for the answer about screw rpms and them getting a fix that way. It's kind of what I thought but at times doesn't seem to hold "too" true in game. I know their sonar and hyrophones pick them up, so that could be why the DDs end up where "you were". That's if you can get away from your fiing point fast enough without the sub being detected. And that will also depend on you firing distance from the intended target.

Lots of good info coming out of this discussion guys. Keep it up guys.... inquiring minds "need" to know. ;)

[High Voltage]

In the movies, because active pinging emits a sound pulse, they end up not only hearing it but actually feeling it strike the hull. Is this realistic or only added to create "atmosphere?"
Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to damn you all to hell for ever having gotten me involved in this game!!! You know you're addicted when you log into subsim more often than you do to your own email account. :x:x
Do you guys remember when Jerry switched apartments with Kramer in the episode with Kenny Rogers Roaster?


(Enter Jerry, his hair is like Kramer's. Jerry enters doing Kramer's slide)
Jerry: Hey everybody, I'm on no sleep, no sleep!. You don't know what it's
like in there, all night long things are creeping and cracking. And
that red light is burning my brain!
Elaine: You look a little stressed.
Jerry: Oh I'm stressed! :doh:


Well that's what I feel like. Every surface of my desk is covered in charts, reference books and targetting printouts. My wife just nods her head when she walks by; that's if I even notice her anymore.
Last night's dinner was deep frozen pig's arse and salty water (U-48's fresh water plant was damaged as a result of depth charges and is now allowing seawater to seep in and contaminate our freshwater supply)


Kapitanleutnant Joachim Kreutz
U-48

[AVGWarhawk]

sorry to "butt" in to the nice flow of posts here but i would like to ask how deep a boat can dive in gwx?? is it the same as stock or different. i ask coz on the diagrams he shows a u-boat down at 300 which aint possible in the stock game

He stated if you are modding your boat to go 300m your cheating your butt off. So unmodded it ain't happening.

[Ducimus]

sorry to "butt" in to the nice flow of posts here but i would like to ask how deep a boat can dive in gwx?? is it the same as stock or different. i ask coz on the diagrams he shows a u-boat down at 300 which aint possible in the stock game

Yes. One could tell you the exact max depth, but that would kinda ruin the surpise. :smug: They dont go down to 300, or even 280 meters, but they do go deeper then 260 meters.

[GT182]

:hmm: HV, what's email? Yeah yur now addicted bigtime. But lookout when you don't see the sun for several days on end. ;) LOL

Oh, I gotta run for now. The baby just got home from the hospital, his first time out in the new world.

[Ducimus]

sorry to "butt" in to the nice flow of posts here but i would like to ask how deep a boat can dive in gwx?? is it the same as stock or different. i ask coz on the diagrams he shows a u-boat down at 300 which aint possible in the stock game

He stated if you are modding your boat to go 300m your cheating your butt off. So unmodded it ain't happening.

Only because depth charges magically POOF at 300 meters. You are virutally untouchable below 300. May as well type in iddqd.

[Mooncatt]

so effectivley if you dont "cheat" its impossible to avoid sonar by using depth because a sonar can go as deep as you can go before being crushed?

[ref]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2]In the movies, because active pinging emits a sound pulse, they end up not only hearing it but actually feeling it strike the hull. Is this realistic or only added to create "atmosphere?"


For what I've read it sounds like someon was throwing pebbles to the hull on the sub side, but it was a sound only, no hitting, also the DC shaking the sub used in the movies is just for eye candy, it's impossible for a DC to shake the sub like an earthquake, if a single DC has the power to do that then the sub will implode

Ref

[Mooncatt]

[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2]In the movies, because active pinging emits a sound pulse, they end up not only hearing it but actually feeling it strike the hull. Is this realistic or only added to create "atmosphere?"


For what I've read it sounds like someon was throwing pebbles to the hull on the sub side,

Ref

i have also heard this too, is it modelled in gwx at all

[Ducimus]

so effectivley if you dont "cheat" its impossible to avoid sonar by using depth because a sonar can go as deep as you can go before being crushed?

Quiz time!
Look at the late war diagram again.

Sub A is at 200 meters. You know you can go to 260, and a bit beyond that. So If Sub A dives to 260 meters, Can you tell me approximately when the DD will lose active sonar contact?

[Ducimus]

so effectivley if you dont "cheat" its impossible to avoid sonar by using depth because a sonar can go as deep as you can go before being crushed?

Quiz time!
Look at the late war diagram again.

Sub A is at 200 meters. You know you can go to 260, and a bit beyond that. So If Sub A dives to 260 meters, Can you tell me approximately when the DD will lose active sonar contact?


Meh, ill just finish the thought then be misconscruted as patronizing. Its not my intetion, im only trying to illustrate this point the best i know how.

In the rough example of latewar sonar it has a maximum range of 2100 meters. By going to 260 meters by about 1200 meters, your out of this sonars cone. If you present a small profile, you may not get pinged at all. You have avoided this sonar.

Even if you didnt present a small profile and got pinged, your only going to get pinged for approximately 900 meters worth of travel. How long do you think it will take a 7 to 10 kt escort to travel 900 meters? Not very long. So by going deep, youve minimzed your exposure to being pinged.

[AVGWarhawk]

@moomcat

Basically yearly war the sonar can look 200m deep, late war the sonar goes down to 300m deep. So early war you can go just below 200m and escape. Late war as the sonar looks deeper and you can only go maybe 260m max, the sonar will pick you up as it is looking past 260m....just where you are sitting. Not a cheat but if you mod you boat to go past 300m then this is a cheat and it does not make sense to mod you boat past 300m because he ingame DC just disappear.

[Ducimus]

Basically yearly war the sonar can look 200m deep, late war the sonar goes down to 300m deep. .

I'd have to say we really don't know that. One thing ive always wanted to do, is take the sonar variables into a CAD program of sorts and draft out EXACTLY how deep the sonars are at a given range.

How deep an active sonar can really go, is dependant on it's maximum elevation and range. Early war sonar is an example of this.

But looking again at late war sonar (again, this images are NOT to scale, they are hand drawn to illustrate), by going deep, youve forced an approximate 1200 meter blind spot in the AI's active sonar. yes, he can ping you... at range, but up close, he can't. Thats when you have to be real quiet and wait him out. Because chances are if you do break free, and get a respectable distance from him (say 1200+ meters), if he happens to swing around in just the right way and catch you giving him a favorable aspect, he's liable to pick you up again, and your back to square one. So you always have to be mindful of your aspect to the escort. Break free, keep him at your stern turning from side to side a few degrees now and then to see what he's doing.

[robbo180265]

Hi All

Bit of a newbie here but I'd just like to say that I've not only found this thread really useful but incredibly interesting too!!! :up: :up: :up:

[GT182]

Well, if you can get Moby Dick to follow you, your safe at any depth. ;) I hear he loves to eat "tin cans" for a snack, any time of day. Plus they say he's really big so sonar will pick him up first, leaving you unmolested. ;)

Just picking. It's some of the best info and help on sonar we've had. :)

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, if you can get Moby Dick to follow you, your safe at any depth. ;) I hear he loves to eat "tin cans" for a snack, any time of day. Plus they say he's really big so sonar will pick him up first, leaving you unmolested. ;)

Just picking. It's some of the best info and help on sonar we've had. :)

Funny you should say that because many a whale was bombed by planes who thought the poor buggers were subs.....just so happens they be venting on the surface like the u-boat!

[Ducimus]

Somebody call the SPCA on those bastages! :lol:

[Sailor Steve]

One thing ive always wanted to do, is take the sonar variables into a CAD program of sorts and draft out EXACTLY how deep the sonars are at a given range.
The problem is that there is no exact answer. Variations in tempurature and water movement can reduce the range drastically.

Here's a site showing how effective ranges are calculated when tracking schools of fish.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6602E/x6602e05.htm

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

Excellent work Ducimus... as always! :up:

Now a couple of questions. How does DD AI know where you are after a torpedo launch, especially if it's a Type II electric? Is it from sound it makes or your sub they pick up on? I've seen that no matter how far away you are they always head to where the fish was fired from... be it 3000 meters, or 2200 meters as in you photos. And the speed of my sub is at 1 or 2kts... usually 1kt and "Silent Running". When I'm in position and ready to launch, it's always a Type II electric for the "surprise" effect, and it sure wakes 'em up in a hurry too. LOL

AVG... we already belong to the best club there is.... SubSim. Why start another? Just picking on ya mate. ;)

You can actually hear your own fish if you duck into the sound room and put on ye old headphones (that is, go to the sound room and listen :p ).

Slowly manually move the bearing needle of the hydrophones and you can pick up the sounds of your torpedoes. You can even hear duds smack the sound of the hull; they made a low 'clunk' sound.

And yes, DDs and other escorts could hear your incoming fish, too.

During a U-Boat torpedo attack a sonarman picked up the distinctive hiss of an approaching fish. [I]"I ran out on the bridge to prepare for an explosion. I looked over the side in time to see the torpedo streak on by about 10 feet away from the hull! An order had been given to stream FXR, and sure enough the torpedo headed for it and blew up well astern!" *
Rocky Schoenrock, Sonarman, USS Inch (DE-146)

*http://www.de220.com/Armament/Decoys/Decoys.htm

[Steppenwolf]

I'd have to say we really don't know that. One thing ive always wanted to do, is take the sonar variables into a CAD program of sorts and draft out EXACTLY how deep the sonars are at a given range.

How deep an active sonar can really go, is dependant on it's maximum elevation and range. Early war sonar is an example of this.


I'm no mathematician, but one can do a quick and dirty estimate.
As you could see from Ducimus drawing on the first page, the sonar "cone" forms essentially a right triangle. This diagram is nowhere near as nice as Ducimus drawing, but it gives the general idea:

1. The surface of the water (and the sonar beam angled at its highest elevation) forms the Adjacent side.
2. The length of the sonar beam angled at its lowest elevation forms the Hypotenuse.
3. The Angle is the maximum amount the sonar beam can be angled downward from the Destroyer.
4. The area within the triangle ( all of the //////// symbols ) is the sonar "cone", wherein the sub can be detected.
5. We want to know the length of the Opposite, which will tell us how deep the sonar cone goes (and how deep the sub can be detected) at its maximum depth.


---SURFACE OF WATER (THE ADJACENT)---DESTROYER
O ////////////////////////////////////////// ANGLE
P ////////////////////////////////////
P ///////////////////////////////
O /////////////////////////
S ////////////////// THE HYPOTENUSE
I ////////////
T //////
E //

According to the GWX files, an early war sonar has a range of about 1200 meters and can be angled down about 10 degrees. So our Hypotenuse is 1200 and our Angle is 10 degrees. Sin of 10 degrees is about .1736

Sin of the Angle = (Length of Opposite)/(Length of Hypotenuse) OR
Sin of the Angle * Length of Hypotenuse = Length of Opposite
.1736 * 1200 = 208.32 meters

So at its deepest point, the early war sonar only goes down about 208 meters (lets call it 200). The maximum depth decreases roughly linearly from 200 meters at the deepest point to 0 meters by the time it gets back to the destroyers position. So at the halfway point (about where the label HYPOTENUSE is in the diagram) the maximum depth is only about half of what it was, about 100 meters.

TRANSLATION:
An early war sonar can, theoretically, detect a sub at about the following depths:
At 1200 meters from the Destroyer - sub can be detected down to approx 200 meters.
At 900 meters from the Destroyer - approx 150 meters
At 600 meters from the Destroyer - approx 100 meters
At 300 meters from the Destroyer - approx 50 meters
At 0 meters from the Destroyer - 0 meters

You can plug other numbers into this:
A little better early war sonar has a range of 1500 meters, but still a 10 degree Angle.
So 1736*1500 = 260.4 meters maximum depth.

Late in the war things get much worse:
The second best late war sonar has a range of 2000 meters and an angle of 40 degrees, giving a depth of about 1285 meters(lets call it 1200). (IMPORTANT NOTE: Like many other elements in the game sonars do not detect below 300 meters. So it doesn't really see down to 1200 meters, but it is still useful for determing the depth at different points along the cone).

At 2000 meters from the Destroyer - sub can be detected down to 300 meters.
At 1000 meters from the Destroyer - 300 meters
At 400 meters from the Destroyer - 250 meters
At 250 meters from the Destroyer - 150 meters
At 0 meters from the Destroyer - 0 meters

The zone of safety shrinks (and then there's the BEST sonar with a 2200 meter range and an Angle of 65 degrees).

IMPORTANT NOTES:
1. Keep in mind, that even if my figures are correct, they represent THEORETICAL, absolute maximums under perfect conditions (Sonar is able to get maximum range, no interference etc.). I assume the game is taking into account things which will reduce range (and hence depth) and other hindrances. Not to mention you are doing everything not to get pinged (reducing target aspect etc.).
2. The two late war sonars listed above are the BEST in the game (so constitute a worse case scenario). Some other late war sonars still have only a 10 degree angle.
3. Note that in late war not every escort gets the latest and greatest sonar equipment. Some get less capable late war sonars, other still carry earlier equipment.
4. It is possible that SH3 may use a simplified model. For instance, instead of a continuously decreasing maximum depth, it may only change the maximum depth every X meters or every X% of the range, so the maximum depth becomes a series of block steps rather than a smooth angle. Haven't run any tests to see if this is so.

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Obviously there are other factors in the game (and math) that come into this, so this just gives a quick and dirty, THEORETICAL and VERY GENERAL approximation. Not to mention my own complete incompetence when it comes to math does not guarantee that there isn't a mistake in here.

[Ducimus]

Thats an awesome post Steppenwolf! Your skillls in mathemtics dwarf my own. I can balance my budget, thats about it. :lol:

Edit: one thing that troubles me though is your approximations to how deep late war sonar can go vs the distance from the destroyer. (i know you said this was quick and dirty approximations). The reason is, ive found that the AI tends to ping me from when its say, 700ish meters or more ( best guess) away from me. Inside of that distance, i dont get pinged very often. A destroyer typicaly has to make a wide circle to reaquire me.

[Steppenwolf]

Thats an awesome post Steppenwolf! Your skillls in mathemtics dwarf my own. I can balance my budget, thats about it. :lol:

Edit: one thing that troubles me though is your approximations to how deep late war sonar can go vs the distance from the destroyer. (i know you said this was quick and dirty approximations). The reason is, ive found that the AI tends to ping me from when its say, 700ish meters or more ( best guess) away from me. Inside of that distance, i dont get pinged very often. A destroyer typicaly has to make a wide circle to reaquire me.

Edit: A slight DUH here. There was an error in that last chart, which I have now edited. I believe the two guesses below are still correct.

Well, did say it was quick and dirty:) My best guesses are these:

1. Keep in mind, that even if my figures are correct, they represent absolute maximums under perfect conditions (Sonar is able to get maximum range, no interference etc.). I assume the game is taking into account things which will reduce range (and hence depth) and other hindrances. Not to mention you are doing everything not to get pinged (reducing target aspect etc.).

2. Although the very best of the late war sonars (the two I listed above are the BEST in the game), have the capabilities mentioned above, not all ships in late war are equipped with them. Some of even the later Sonar models are still limited to 10 degree Angles. Also, there are still a lot of ships in late war that are using the older equipment and hence cannot ping you at that depth.

DISCLAIMER:
I am no expert on sonar operations, so this is just a guess and you can take with a grain of salt.:)

[Ducimus]

Unfortunatly, the AI sonar in SH3 is much like a flashlight, it's shaped how it is, and its either on or off. It doesnt do sweeping motions. Thats my understanding of it anyway.

If you want an illustration in motion, target a destroyer in a singleplayer mission with the auto TDC enabled. You'll see a graphical represenation of his sensors on the map, and you'll physically see the sonar cone's width and shape from a top down view.

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

Unfortunatly, the AI sonar in SH3 is much like a flashlight, it's shaped how it is, and its either on or off. It doesnt do sweeping motions. Thats my understanding of it anyway.

If you want an illustration in motion, target a destroyer in a singleplayer mission with the auto TDC enabled. You'll see a graphical represenation of his sensors on the map, and you'll physically see the sonar cone's width and shape from a top down view.

That also shows you, I believe, the passive hydrophone detection areas too.

[Ducimus]

Yup. Visual, and i think radar detection ranges as well.

[Steppenwolf]

Unfortunatly, the AI sonar in SH3 is much like a flashlight, it's shaped how it is, and its either on or off. It doesnt do sweeping motions. Thats my understanding of it anyway.

If you want an illustration in motion, target a destroyer in a singleplayer mission with the auto TDC enabled. You'll see a graphical represenation of his sensors on the map, and you'll physically see the sonar cone's width and shape from a top down view.


Unfortunately, you're understanding of it is probably very good. I've seen those dotted outlines, but was hoping that they represented possible coverage arcs, not one big one. However, looking in the "ai_sensor" file, I see no entries for sweep periods or smaller arcs within the main elevation arc, so I believe you are correct and the game simplifies the cone into one big "flashlight".

I know I'm preaching to the choir here (As you obviously already know this stuff from your excellent primer at the start of this thread), this is not the way it worked in real life. For those that may not be as familiar, this is a link to a nice diagram showing how the different sonar types can work together (aiming in small arcs):
http://www.de220.com/Electronics/Sonar/Sonar%20Photos/Sonar%20Patterns.jpg
Didn't think SH3 modeled it in anywhere near that kind of detail, but was hoping it was more complicated than just the one big flashlight model.

So just ignore that guess (Did say it was just a Guess, must be that Popeye avatar rattling my brain):) , and I'll have to rely on the other two guesses as to the depth of pinging.

[Steppenwolf]

Ducimus,
Yes, as I suspected in my Disclaimer, I had made a mistake in that chart (which I have now edited). This makes the depth detection a little closer to your experience (though still off). I think the two guesses I made originally (about non-perfect condtions and non-latest equipment), probably explain the remaining difference.

It's also a distinct possibility that SH3 models this completely differently (it simplifies many other things regarding the cone as we've seen in the previous post). Instead of a continuously decreasing maximum depth, it may only change the maximum depth every X meters or every X% of the range, so the maximum depth becomes a series of block steps rather than a smooth angle (which would also explain your observation). The above chart is just what, "theoretically" the maximum depths would be in "perfect" conditions.

Haven't done a late war patrol myself (much too cowardly), so don't have any practical experience as to when the AI seems to lose you. Would be curious to hear other people's experiences with this. At what distances the Destroyers seem to stay in contact or lose you. We might be able to get a better idea of how SH3 handles this.

By the way, I've incorporated a number of the changes from your "Flavored to Taste" mod and am enjoying them very much. Thanks for your work on this.

[Woof1701]

That i havent got quite nailed down yet, but ill tell you the bits that i comprehend.

- The AI has the same max visual range that you do.

- Weather, and state of the sea effect the maximum visual distance the AI can see.

- Time of day effects the max visual distance for the AI (IE, day vs night)

- Your profile or aspect effects the AI's ability to see you. Again, bow's on or as close to it as your attack approach allows. Broadside is a no no. Turning on your heel to shoot your rear torpedos, this is always a concern.

- Your surface speed effects the AI's ability to visuall detect you. If your running a night surface attack at flank speed, the odds are theyll notice vs running in at 1/3rd or standard.

- The closer you get, the greater their visual acuity. Personnaly i get no closer then about 2600 to 3000 meters, and only if i keep my profile small, and my speed low, at night.

edit:
When it comes to radar, all bets are off with visual detection.


Hmm. Thanks. That's what I was afraid of :( I thought with GWX maybe there's a way to attack and even penetrate inside the convoy on a overcast night, like it was done in reality on many occasions. As I stated before in a different thread I think the visual accuracy of the AI is far too good. Being spotted in pitch black nights at 2000 meters distance and seeing a raised scope in the waves even at day is a chance encounter at best.
Just to illustrate my experiences with the sea. During the day with some waves watching from a pier it's even hard to make out buoys that are farther away than a few hundred meters down the beach. Even if you know where they are they bob into and out of your view constantly. Even at night when the promenade and the pier are brightly lit it's very hard to make out any details on the water. I once heard a boat with an outboard motor approach and couldn't see it until it was almost below the pier. Had I stood on a destroyer or merchant making a racket with it's own engines I wouldn't even have heard it. Granted: I didn't have binoculars.

[Lanzfeld]

Does SH-3 Commander also randomize the amount of time the escorts spend looking for me in GWX everytime I start the game like random thermal layers? Up to 45 minutes?

Just wanted to ask again please.

[StandingCow]

Yes! Excellent advice! If you are being pinged, you want your engines at flank, and doing some manuevers.

Once the Depth charges and pinging stops. run silent, because he is listening for you.

[Kumando]

Yes! Excellent advice! If you are being pinged, you want your engines at flank, and doing some manuevers.

Once the Depth charges and pinging stops. run silent, because he is listening for you.

I wouldnt do that if i were you.:huh:

[Steppenwolf]

Does SH-3 Commander also randomize the amount of time the escorts spend looking for me in GWX everytime I start the game like random thermal layers? Up to 45 minutes?

Just wanted to ask again please.

Yes, it generates a random time from 15 to 45 minutes each time you launch SH3 Commander.

[Ducimus]

Yes! Excellent advice! If you are being pinged, you want your engines at flank, and doing some manuevers.

Once the Depth charges and pinging stops. run silent, because he is listening for you.

I wouldnt do that if i were you.:huh:


Yeah i really poorly worded that part didn't i? With multiple escorts there is ALWAYS somebody listening. With a single escort its not so determental.

[Kumando]

Yes! Excellent advice! If you are being pinged, you want your engines at flank, and doing some manuevers.

Once the Depth charges and pinging stops. run silent, because he is listening for you.

I wouldnt do that if i were you.:huh:


Yeah i really poorly worded that part didn't i? With multiple escorts there is ALWAYS somebody listening. With a single escort its not so determental.

Even with a single escort if you run in flank and he is pinging he will hear you the same way i have tried flank in pinging and guessa what i was not sucsessfull.

[Wulfmann]

That should be made a sticky.

Too many are complaining the problem is with GWX AI or sensors but I am sure it is their lack of understanding on enacting tactics at the correct time.

One of the things I know works is when an AI is pinging and lining you up and dropping a string you going to flank speed and changing direction to be going 90 degrees from the course of that string is often the difference of life and death.
Making a turn at 2 knots will leave you in the drop zone and damaged requiring repair (goinmg off silent running)assuring constant location known to enemy.
If he is dropping on you he knows where you are at and remaining undamaged is now the most important aspect of the battle. As soon as one has cleared the drop (heard first explosions) a drop of RPMs (2 knots) and a further 45% change of course means he can't hear you and then must reestablish sonar contact. Being undamaged gives one the chance of being undetected again.

I am going to copy that and save that post for future reference and advise others do if at least to quote for the next Kaleun that believes its GWX doing something wrong when it is him!

Super!

Wulfmann

[Mooncatt]

i aint complaining i made it thru the channel last night with 5+DDS around me

[Jimbuna]

i aint complaining i made it thru the channel last night with 5+DDS around me

Where did you download the cloaking device from ? :lol:

[Ducimus]

Yes! Excellent advice! If you are being pinged, you want your engines at flank, and doing some manuevers.

Once the Depth charges and pinging stops. run silent, because he is listening for you.

I wouldnt do that if i were you.:huh:


Yeah i really poorly worded that part didn't i? With multiple escorts there is ALWAYS somebody listening. With a single escort its not so determental.

Even with a single escort if you run in flank and he is pinging he will hear you the same way i have tried flank in pinging and guessa what i was not sucsessfull.


True, but you can loose him very easily. That's why i dont think its THAT determental with a single tin can. Unless of course he gets help. Still though, i guess ill reword that little bit in the orginal post to cut down on confusion.

[Mooncatt]

i aint complaining i made it thru the channel last night with 5+DDS around me

Where did you download the cloaking device from ? :lol:

:rotfl: :rotfl: good call jim.

to answer this i did nothing special at all just silent running 3knts and as deep as poss which was about 30m IIRC (i used it. jimbuna knows what i mean;) )

[Jimbuna]

i aint complaining i made it thru the channel last night with 5+DDS around me

Where did you download the cloaking device from ? :lol:

:rotfl: :rotfl: good call jim.

to answer this i did nothing special at all just silent running 3knts and as deep as poss which was about 30m IIRC (i used it. jimbuna knows what i mean;) )

Good man ;) ....and Good Hunting :arrgh!: :up:

[johan_d]

I dont have much trouble with the underwater activities, with some sensible actions one can change the odds, but the surface actions is imho a bit overdone.

When looking to a taskforce, from lets say 3 kilometers thru persicope, fireing a torpedo, quickly lower the thing and dive and go silent...
The destroyers turn to your direction instantly when the torpedo hits.. thats not real. How on earth did they know where the torp came from in the first place?
But I can live with that, but their visuals.. strange thing is sometimes they see me, sometimes not, and not depending on weather.

I feel we need more 'luck', because we need the extra bit further in the war, when things get equal or worse.:yep:

[oRGy]

In reality the sonars worked like this:

http://www.de220.com/Electronics/Sonar/Sonar%20Photos/Sonar%20Patterns.jpg

I'm quite sure that something can be done regarding the visual detection routines. I seem to recall something of that nature when I was doing IuB.

Anyway, this page is very useful:

http://www.de220.com/Electronics/Sonar/Sonar.htm

I used it as a basis for some research into historic sensor values for IuB. Cdr Gibs might remember more - I have no idea what the case is in GWX. The following should be noted:


These early sonars had several shortcomings. First was the 2500 yard maximum range, requiring escorts to be less than 5000 yards apart to obtain overlapping coverage. This range was reduced by rough or high-salinity seas, underwater temperature inversions and thermo clines.

Second was the narrow beam, measuring only 16 degrees. This was akin to searching a very large dark room with a tiny penlight while wearing blinders.

Third, the early sonar could not determine depth, a critical piece of information when setting pressure fuzes on the depth charges.

Fourth, the sonar worked best at very slow speeds, providing the enemy of both advanced notification with the active pining and a slow-moving easy target.

Finally, while the searchlight could traverse about 360 degrees (minus the area around the noisy propellers), it could not move vertically. Once the beam passed over the target submarine, the searching vessel's sonar lost contact.

Also, I believe there was a maximum depth setting to the later sonars. Apparently the British did not believe that German u-boats could dive below 160m (or similar) for most of the war. Details are hazy however - long time ago since I did any SH3 modding.

[AVGWarhawk]

Awesome pic on it!

[Iron Budokan]

I don't agree if a DD is dropping a string of charges he knows where you are. He's dropping a string where the thinks you are. Big difference. All too often I've seen DDs kill all the algae in a patch of ocean because they think I'm there. And I'm not talking about doing search patterns or random drops to try and scare me up, but the DDs POUNDING an area all together and I'm no where near.

However, if you are under the charge it is smart to crank the engines to flank and turn 90 degrees to the DDs line of attack -- if you have the opportunity. This is sometimes harder to do if your sonarman is an incompetent fool like mine is....

And, yes, that is an awesome pic of the sonar abilities.

[johan_d]

@orgy

now, whats that something?

[Ducimus]

The pic Orgy posted is probably the best diagram you'll find on the internet. Best ive ever been able to find at any rate. IT really does illustrate how in the real world sonar worked.

In SH3, its more like this: :rotfl: :rotfl:
http://www.themushroomkingdom.net/images/lm/lm_luigi-flashlight.jpg

[EM2(SS)]

That i havent got quite nailed down yet, but ill tell you the bits that i comprehend.

- The AI has the same max visual range that you do.

- Weather, and state of the sea effect the maximum visual distance the AI can see.

- Time of day effects the max visual distance for the AI (IE, day vs night)

- Your profile or aspect effects the AI's ability to see you. Again, bow's on or as close to it as your attack approach allows. Broadside is a no no. Turning on your heel to shoot your rear torpedos, this is always a concern.

- Your surface speed effects the AI's ability to visuall detect you. If your running a night surface attack at flank speed, the odds are theyll notice vs running in at 1/3rd or standard.

- The closer you get, the greater their visual acuity. Personnaly i get no closer then about 2600 to 3000 meters, and only if i keep my profile small, and my speed low, at night.

edit:
When it comes to radar, all bets are off with visual detection.


Hmm. Thanks. That's what I was afraid of :( I thought with GWX maybe there's a way to attack and even penetrate inside the convoy on a overcast night, like it was done in reality on many occasions. As I stated before in a different thread I think the visual accuracy of the AI is far too good. Being spotted in pitch black nights at 2000 meters distance and seeing a raised scope in the waves even at day is a chance encounter at best.
Just to illustrate my experiences with the sea. During the day with some waves watching from a pier it's even hard to make out buoys that are farther away than a few hundred meters down the beach. Even if you know where they are they bob into and out of your view constantly. Even at night when the promenade and the pier are brightly lit it's very hard to make out any details on the water. I once heard a boat with an outboard motor approach and couldn't see it until it was almost below the pier. Had I stood on a destroyer or merchant making a racket with it's own engines I wouldn't even have heard it. Granted: I didn't have binoculars.

To be upfront I don't know even know what file to look in to see how the visual detection AI works.

However I think Ducimus is right on target with the post above. A couple things I'd like to add. Running decks awashed (6-7meters) also lowers your profile. Just a guess here but just as Asdic and passive sonar get better later in the war, so does visual spotting. As a histrorical reference the Japanese entered WW2 with probably the best lookouts of any nation. They constantly trained under adverse night conditions which led them to usually spot the enemy first. They got quite the better of the US early in the Guadalcanal campaign until radar was more prevalent.

I really love attacking convoys at night on the surface. Usually by running decks awashed, 5-9 knts, and always bow on i can get to within 1500-2000 meters out and not be spotted. Pick 2 targets and shoot. Granted you cant always get the juicy center of convoy Large Tanker, but a Pyro and a small merch is still not bad.

I make sure torpedoes are set for slow to allow for a quick 180 turn away after firing. Escape at 9kts or so.

Bad weather is your friend just as Ducimus said but i cant be horrible. If you cant see it you cant sink it.:D

Not that im an expert at SH3, far from it however getting in close at night on the surface is possible (till late 41 or mid 42 that is!) and much more fun than shooting from periscope depth then diving deep. It gives you a better chance of repeat attacks and allows you to follow the convoy much easier!

[Ducimus]

To be upfront I don't know even know what file to look in to see how the visual detection AI works.

AI_sensors.dat and SIM.cfg

Same goes for the AI's sonar, radar, hydrophones etc. The SIM.cfg is a very umm , shall we say, "powerful" file btw. By mainpulating variables in that file you can make the AI dumb as rocks or be alert enough to hear a dolphin fart from curraco to madagascar (yes thats an exaggeration but you get the general idea. )

Edit:
and no im not discussing that.. Havent touched it in awhile and the idea of looking at it agan make my head hurt.

[Wulfmann]

I don't agree if a DD is dropping a string of charges he knows where you are. He's dropping a string where the thinks you are. Big difference. All too often I've seen DDs kill all the algae in a patch of ocean because they think I'm there. And I'm not talking about doing search patterns or random drops to try and scare me up, but the DDs POUNDING an area all together and I'm no where near.

However, if you are under the charge it is smart to crank the engines to flank and turn 90 degrees to the DDs line of attack -- if you have the opportunity. This is sometimes harder to do if your sonarman is an incompetent fool like mine is....

And, yes, that is an awesome pic of the sonar abilities.

I know for sure when a DD "Knows" where I am when he is dropping across my position.

OK, Lets say he does not know where you are if he is by wild guess drops right on you then what is the difference when the cans go off on your boat and sink you or damage you so badly you must repair for an hour just to not plunge to the bottom????:damn:

Let me spell it out more clearly.
When you are listening correctly and you hear an escort at 210 start to drop and he keeps dropping but you can't hear his engines only his cans dropping and you spin the hydro dial to 30 and hear him pulling away still dropping then you can be sure whether he knows or does not know and is incredibly lucky your ars is either dead or you go to flank with a 90% turn.
Verstanden Herr Kaleun?

What you refer to I also know. (Does that sound arrogant?:hmm: )
That is I can tell by the speed he moves on the hydro compared to his engine noise and the changing position if he is dropping away from me so going off 2 knots would give my position away. If he has moved from 165 to 205 in his drop and maintained a stern position then he is not on top of you.

In a sense you are right except you are wrong in that you admit you have yet to learn to use the hydro effectively enough to "know" he is dropping on you or is dropping near you causing you to over react and show yourself.

Wulfmann

[Wulfmann]

One very important point on this. Do not count on your sonar man.

You must man the position and listen to all the warships. You ecentually get a grip on what they do but there are always surprises no matter how good you get at this (or think you get), a fatal mistake is believing you are in control. You are not but you are not helpless if you increase your odds by better hydro management!

Wulfmann

[dertien]

Ok,we've covered visual, hydrophone and pinging detection by the DD's.

Does anyone know if the AI fixes on radio messages you send to BdU ? I 've once sent a msg to BdU stating I was shadowing a convoy, and a small Flower corvette who was moving away from me at a very big distance, was soon thereafter steaming down at me. Had to dive, lost the convoy, but had to dive deep to escape that stupid flower and his bigger friend.

So does anyone know if this is coïncidence (he just spotted me visually) or he detected my radio transmission. It was my first patrol around okt '39 so I don't beleive HUFFDUFF should have been a fact in those years right ?

Ducimus ?
Wulfmann?
Steppenwolf?

any ideas on this ?

[Steppenwolf]

In the game, sending a radio report increases the probablily of an enemy airstrike being sent your way. The "Airstrike.cfg" file has an entry for "Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Message Sent". However, I can't swear that there is an increased probability of enemy ships detecting you as well. Anecdotal evidence from different posters on this forum would seem to suggest that it does.

In an earlier post, Kpt. Lehmann had this to say on the subject:
"Radio Direction Finding: Though there are more than a few
who feel that this is a broken function in SH3... I believe a
representation of it exists to some degree in-game. I can
only offer my own experiences in reporting this means of detection
by the enemy and by the apparently active values
one can find in the Airstrike Configuration file. (At the
very least, the enemy AI will send some sort of distress
signal... which we can all attest to having attacked single
merchies only to have a DD or enemy aircraft attack soon after)."


As to whether that is historically correct for as early as October 1939 I will leave to someone more knowledgeable on the subject.

[Ducimus]

Does anyone know if the AI fixes on radio messages you send to BdU ?

That's a big, YUP. But its a probablity percentage, doesnt happen ALL the time. Sort of random.

[Iron Budokan]

Right, that's the difference. I was just saying he might by accident be dropping a string of cans right on top of you because he thinks you're there. Doesn't help your situation out any, agreed with that.

[Wulfmann]

According to Werner in Iron Coffins sending a radio message can be a death sentance and often brought swift attacks. He vowed to stop!
I do not send any radio messages unless I am far from anything.
You increase your chances of being detected and you are not actually alerting anything to help you except in the Med or off Northern Norway (Luftwaffe) so out in the NA you can only accomplish one thing. Your death!
BDU can get my report when I reach France!

Wulfmann

[Corsair]

And anyway BdU burocrats always answer the same thing... :D

[Jimbuna]

According to Werner in Iron Coffins sending a radio message can be a death sentance and often brought swift attacks. He vowed to stop!
I do not send any radio messages unless I am far from anything.
You increase your chances of being detected and you are not actually alerting anything to help you except in the Med or off Northern Norway (Luftwaffe) so out in the NA you can only accomplish one thing. Your death!
BDU can get my report when I reach France!

Wulfmann

I have to concur with that :yep:

[gamers2000]

Send false reports that Bernard is onboard. DD wouldn't come within 5 miles of you!

[johan_d]

We did, and BdU told us to be more agressive.. (towards Bernard?)

[Abd_von_Mumit]

But those who want to play with as much realism as possible MUST send their reports to BdU _every_day_, as the captains used to do before they learned it bring the danger.

[John Channing]

Given that this is one of the most useful and informative threads we currently have, I have made it a sticky.

JCC

[ref]

Thanks John, that's an excelent move.

This link has been posted in other threads, but I think It's worth beeing added here

http://www.hnsa.org/sound/#sealion

In this page are real sound recorded by tu US navy, I recommend you all take the time to listen to them.

[Edit] Credit goes to dean_acheson who posted the link.

Ref

[Jimbuna]

Yeah...came across this site a while back ref...it's quite a site with some awesome tapes/sounds :up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Given that this is one of the most useful and informative threads we currently have, I have made it a sticky.

JCC

Very cool of you mate.

I can understand, visualize, and mod the sensors in GWX... but when I try to explain them... I just fall flat on my face when I try to break it down into something all can understand.

(To be clear, I had a good deal of help during sensor modding sessions, from Cdre Gibs, Ref, and for the late war player snorkel sensors... vonHelsching and Ref again.)

Ducimus, Ref, Wulfmann, and all who are involved in this thread. Thank you. Some variation of the information posted here will find its way into the GWX manual prior to our final release.

[Kumando]

I will try next time im in a "cat and mouse" with a DD but if Ducimus means it right he is pinging than not listening you go flank and he will not hear you thats not real so it can be considered a cheat right?

Please read my previous post, if he's pinging you he's not listening with the hydrophones, he's locating you with the asdic, if you go flank he'll still be tracking you, and it's not cheating, that's what happen in real life, the advantage you have is that when he's making a DC run you can go flank for a few moments after he passes your position without giving up your position, but that only works if there's only one ship chasing you, if there are more one of them is always at low speed tracking you with the hydrophones.

Ref

"The submarine detector's job was to control the transmissions sent out every few seconds on a sweeping arc. We were taught to use earphones to follow the sound of the transmission out to its limits, 3000 to 4000 yards under ideal conditions and to listen intently for any sign of an echo. An echo was the ultimate sound of danger; the trigger for action stations; the start of attack procedures leading to the firing and dropping of 150 pound depth charges in patterns aimed at the conning tower of the attacker. Along with echoes, we were expected to listen for any sound of engines or motors in the ocean's depths."

I took this from here : http://jproc.ca/sari/asd_gen.html and as you see that in reality they could both ping and listen on the hidrophones for sounds and thats what i stated since the begining,when Ducumius told that they couldnt do the two things simultaneous in the game therefore i still maintain my position that this is an exploit that shouldnt have been brought to public :-?.

[ref]

"The submarine detector's job was to control the transmissions sent out every few seconds on a sweeping arc. We were taught to use earphones to follow the sound of the transmission out to its limits, 3000 to 4000 yards under ideal conditions and to listen intently for any sign of an echo. An echo was the ultimate sound of danger; the trigger for action stations; the start of attack procedures leading to the firing and dropping of 150 pound depth charges in patterns aimed at the conning tower of the attacker. Along with echoes, we were expected to listen for any sound of engines or motors in the ocean's depths."

I took this from here : http://jproc.ca/sari/asd_gen.html and as you see that in reality they could both ping and listen on the hidrophones for sounds and thats what i stated since the begining,when Ducumius told that they couldnt do the two things simultaneous in the game therefore i still maintain my position that this is an exploit that shouldnt have been brought to public :-?.

What Ducimus and I have been talking about is how the game deals with sensors, in any case this statement :
Along with echoes, we were expected to listen for any sound of engines or motors in the ocean's depths."

Is valid only when they where conducting normal sweeps at low speed, when the DD increases his speed for an attack run it's impossible for them to hear anything but the echoes, and even that capacity shoud be very diminished, modern day passive sonars can't listen above 15 knots, and anything above 10 knots is washed out by the speed effects.

when Ducumius told that they couldnt do the two things simultaneous in the game therefore i still maintain my position that this is an exploit that shouldnt have been brought to public :-?.

That's a well known fact of the sh3 engine and for a long time, anybody who pays a little attention should notice this, for example on your own sub didn't you ever wonder why your sonar operator can't listen to the sound of ships within your visual range?
We aren't discussing state secrets here, it's just a compilation of know things about sh3, and it's faults, sorry for telling you that santa doesn't exist.

Ref

[Morts]

fact

there is no such thing as "GWX uber AI"
only ppl who dont know how to get the H away from enemy DD's

:rotfl:

[Ducimus]

fact

there is no such thing as "GWX uber AI"
only ppl who dont know how to get the H away from enemy DD's

:rotfl:

Bingo.

[Sailor Steve]

Hey! Just because it was easy and now it isn't anymore, that's no reason to claim they ain't uber...whatever that means.:rotfl:

[Jimbuna]

fact

there is no such thing as "GWX uber AI"
only ppl who dont know how to get the H away from enemy DD's

:rotfl:

That's a lot nearer the mark :up:

[Woof1701]

That i havent got quite nailed down yet, but ill tell you the bits that i comprehend.

- The AI has the same max visual range that you do.

- Weather, and state of the sea effect the maximum visual distance the AI can see.

- Time of day effects the max visual distance for the AI (IE, day vs night)

- Your profile or aspect effects the AI's ability to see you. Again, bow's on or as close to it as your attack approach allows. Broadside is a no no. Turning on your heel to shoot your rear torpedos, this is always a concern.

- Your surface speed effects the AI's ability to visuall detect you. If your running a night surface attack at flank speed, the odds are theyll notice vs running in at 1/3rd or standard.

- The closer you get, the greater their visual acuity. Personnaly i get no closer then about 2600 to 3000 meters, and only if i keep my profile small, and my speed low, at night.

edit:
When it comes to radar, all bets are off with visual detection.


Hmm. Thanks. That's what I was afraid of :( I thought with GWX maybe there's a way to attack and even penetrate inside the convoy on a overcast night, like it was done in reality on many occasions. As I stated before in a different thread I think the visual accuracy of the AI is far too good. Being spotted in pitch black nights at 2000 meters distance and seeing a raised scope in the waves even at day is a chance encounter at best.
Just to illustrate my experiences with the sea. During the day with some waves watching from a pier it's even hard to make out buoys that are farther away than a few hundred meters down the beach. Even if you know where they are they bob into and out of your view constantly. Even at night when the promenade and the pier are brightly lit it's very hard to make out any details on the water. I once heard a boat with an outboard motor approach and couldn't see it until it was almost below the pier. Had I stood on a destroyer or merchant making a racket with it's own engines I wouldn't even have heard it. Granted: I didn't have binoculars.

To be upfront I don't know even know what file to look in to see how the visual detection AI works.

However I think Ducimus is right on target with the post above. A couple things I'd like to add. Running decks awashed (6-7meters) also lowers your profile. Just a guess here but just as Asdic and passive sonar get better later in the war, so does visual spotting. As a histrorical reference the Japanese entered WW2 with probably the best lookouts of any nation. They constantly trained under adverse night conditions which led them to usually spot the enemy first. They got quite the better of the US early in the Guadalcanal campaign until radar was more prevalent.

I really love attacking convoys at night on the surface. Usually by running decks awashed, 5-9 knts, and always bow on i can get to within 1500-2000 meters out and not be spotted. Pick 2 targets and shoot. Granted you cant always get the juicy center of convoy Large Tanker, but a Pyro and a small merch is still not bad.

I make sure torpedoes are set for slow to allow for a quick 180 turn away after firing. Escape at 9kts or so.

Bad weather is your friend just as Ducimus said but i cant be horrible. If you cant see it you cant sink it.:D

Not that im an expert at SH3, far from it however getting in close at night on the surface is possible (till late 41 or mid 42 that is!) and much more fun than shooting from periscope depth then diving deep. It gives you a better chance of repeat attacks and allows you to follow the convoy much easier!

Thanks EM2(SS)

I'll try that. In any case I had hoped to get even closer. But 1500 meters is better than nothing. Last times I tried I got detected at over 3000m distance.

After mid 1942 I wouldn't try a surface attack anyway because of radar, but in the early years it should be fun. Yesterdays save in the career was in June 1940 while shadowing a convoy near the coast. Water is just 30 m deep, so I'll take that as a training mission for night convoy attacks. In case they get me I'll reload and try again. Don't want to start a new career after 11 patrols. :)

[xlbob]

Ducimus,
Thanks for the guide.:up:
My 4th patrol, 1940, I intercepted a convoy, west of scapa flow, sank a large merchant and a pyro ammo ship. Following your guide, I was able to hide and get away from 3 destroyers :D

[Samwolf]

Good info on AI sensors in GWX. Thanks:up:

[Tiny]

I don't really get why you have to be at 200m when waiting on a convoy, I made my 2nd attempt yesterday (GWX ofcourse) on a convoy on my ... now 7th patrol, July 1940. I lay myself at 70m and when the (what it sounded like) two destroyers infront of the convoy had passed at 160 degrees and 40 degress I went up to periscope depth. They didn't ping me at all...besides they don't ping all the time do they...or do they send out a ping once in a while or what?

What really pisses me off is that I ended up sinking 0!!!!!!!! ships :damn:

I saw Nelson Battleship in the convoy but way to far away so I saw I was perfectly lined up to pop a C3 cargo, or large cargo whatever they are called nowadays:88)

Anyway unfortunantely I had my stern pointed to the center of the convoy so I tried to pick of a medium tanker with my stern torpedo. I shoot it away and ofcourse Bernard had loaded the stern full of steamers:dead: so a couple standing on the bow of a passenger/cargo doing that Titanic thing spotted my torp and screamed so loud the convoy went zigzagging...and my two electrical missed the C3!!!!!!!! :x

Yesterday I liked steamer torps in a noobsih way but now I hate them!!, can't see why I ever used them...

Then I went away with the external view to check if the steamer would hit anything and it would have hitted a flower corvette if that to wouldn't have detected it!!! grr.

Then when I came back to my sub I noticed I had only come down to 40m and I heard intensive pinging and a destroyer racing for me and I went :o and ordered vanziniger fahrt and luckily I escaped...but the other flower corvette above me pounded me for an hour with DC...but in the end I escaped without a scratch...thank god for deep seas. :roll:

Will do a 2nd attack this evening. And I shall sink the Nelson ! ARR!!! :arrgh!:



ops this got into quiet a story...:hmm:

[Ducimus]

I don't really get why you have to be at 200m when waiting on a convoy,

Nobody said you had to do that when waiting for a convoy. Just stay off to the side of the lead escort and you'll be fine.

[DrMilton]

I still use old T-Is. They are the fastest out there and when used as the german doctrine instructed (at night time) will blow the victim quite a surprise.
The escorts won't see you if you stay quiet while they pass you by, no need to be so deep for that. To be sure go for silent running even when stationary with engines shut off.

[Mush Martin]

A destroyer is no match for a sub at battle depth in any game environment
or the real world all things being equal.
MM

[Abd_von_Mumit]

The escorts won't see you if you stay quiet while they pass you by, no need to be so deep for that. To be sure go for silent running even when stationary with engines shut off.
Not in GWX, DrMilton, not any more... I know cause they hurt me bad all the times I hope to be undetected when submerged and silent. That simply doesn't work.

[DrMilton]

The escorts won't see you if you stay quiet while they pass you by, no need to be so deep for that. To be sure go for silent running even when stationary with engines shut off.
Not in GWX, DrMilton, not any more... I know cause they hurt me bad all the times I hope to be undetected when submerged and silent. That simply doesn't work.

I see. I guess you are right, the gwx manual does refer to the subject and I have the impression that all the escort crews in gwx have the behavior that elite crews have in the stock game (where silent is not enough). Plus the fact of course that in gwx they will ping around to find you, not just listening for you. The lack of that in vanilla sh3 is a major drawback. :up:

[Tiny]

I did my second attack, but then I started beeing fired at by the flower corvetts when I couln't even really make out much on the horison...ALARM!!!. Depth charged by 3 corvetts for a Long time...not a scratch :yep:

What bothered me though was that the last one to go away made several runs without dropping Anything...it also looked like he was sinking...sort of:doh:

Anyway another funny thing is that after I had stayed submerged for a while...the convoy had let me a nice gift...A large tanker barely above the surface just begging to be torpedoed ! :yep:

Strange since I hadn't hitted anything on my previous attack on the convoy.

Is it just my GWX that is full of half-sinking ships? Lord Nelson in the convoy was also below the waterline.:-? And always when I get back to Kiel there are ships around struggling to stay surfarced....!? :huh:

[DrMilton]

I believe that the mod changes some ship attributes, such as draft, in order to depict better the heavy loaded ships. Maybe this has a greater influence than needed. :hmm:

[ref]

It's a known problem, and we'll correct the issue for the next major release of GWX, it's more evident when saving near a convoy and reloading. Regretably we'll not be able to finish the corrections for the next patch, so you'll have to wait for a while.

Ref

[Makr]

This guide changed my life, hallelujah, amen.

Before this guide: 0 successful convoy attacks....ever!

After this guide: 4 very successful convoy attacks, by successful meaning not getting DC'd to death and dropping a few british ships.

Thanks!

[Ducimus]

This guide changed my life, hallelujah, amen.

Before this guide: 0 successful convoy attacks....ever!

After this guide: 4 very successful convoy attacks, by successful meaning not getting DC'd to death and dropping a few british ships.

Thanks!

Awesome.

[Tiny]

Sounds Great!

I didn't even know you are going to release more of this slice of heaven called GWX

[sea snake]

this is a great post,one of the most detailed posts ive read. the only other in the same class was the wazoo targeting post,thanks.im pretty new so soaking up all the knowledge

[Jimbuna]

Sounds Great!

I didn't even know you are going to release more of this slice of heaven called GWX

We began beta testing of the GWX update two days ago :up:

[CaptainAsh]

First, a question...
How is managed the time of depth charge going deep?
I mean, when I trying to flee at depth 100meters or more, when I m hearing "depth charge!" I m changing course and speed to ahead full or even flank... still the depth charges always looked to be on my path :stare:

Second, a thing I noticed...
When ambushing convoy, I m always targeting the tail of it... usualy, the escort has passed me before I take my shot, then I take the opposite direction of the convoy, running deep and ahead one third... once my hydro report the first torpedo's impact I change my course to cross the convoy path behind it and run slow. Tracking the escort on hydrophone, they usualy take at least 2 more minutes to get to my firing position and they never get my trace again...

[STEED]

GWX is far too easy. :smug:

[Morts]

if its to easy
why did i spot you in a "2nd patrol ur dead" club meeting :hmm:
:rotfl: :rotfl:
j/k

[STEED]

if its to easy
why did i spot you in a "2nd patrol ur dead" club meeting :hmm:
:rotfl: :rotfl:
j/k

Just being sarcastic that's all. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Morts]

i know:rotfl:

[letterboy1]

In reference to a previous question regarding how you can be located from launching a torpedo . . . I have a related question. When the torpedo is expelled from the tube, is some sort of pressurized gas used (ie air, CO2)? It is a sharp and loud sound (at least in the game) which a hydrophone could probably get a bearing from. Is there any truth to this?

[Jimbuna]

Compressed air :arrgh!:

[Ducimus]

Here's a piece of advise i've been meaning to post for awhile, and i may as well post it here.

In GWX, Sailing on the surface, during a really calm and clear day, is a really bad idea.

Reason is, AI_visual has a max range of 30K in GWX. I beleive this was neccessary because the enviormental settings in GWX, REALLY hamper their vision. Any less range they'd be utterly blind. On a calm and clear day, there is nothing holding the visual aquity back.

[gdogghenrikson]

Here's a piece of advise i've been meaning to post for awhile, and i may as well post it here.

In GWX, Sailing on the surface, during a really calm and clear day, is a really bad idea.

I Never sail on surface during day no matter what the weather is!!!

[Jimbuna]

Later on in the war I can understand.....but early on :hmm:
Where's your sense of adventure :cool:

[Tobus]

c.) Your position in relation to the escort. Looking back up at the picture of the aspect, you'll see a big semicircle around the destroyer. The area behind it, is its deafspot, or its baffeles. Its also deaf to anything DIRECTLY under it, at or around a radius of 10 meters. Depth charge attacks DO NOT mask your noise. Only when an escort is directly above you, or if you are directly behind an escort are you completely safe to use as many RPM's in your motors as your heart desires.

I have read in several books by both Kaleuns and U-hunters that DC's could render listening devices useless for sometimes 10 minutes. This is not modeled then?

[Tobus]

Here's a piece of advise i've been meaning to post for awhile, and i may as well post it here.

In GWX, Sailing on the surface, during a really calm and clear day, is a really bad idea.


Well, I had a nice run in last night (mid night, heavy fog) in 1939 north of Scapa with a Battleship and its escort. Peek-a-boo, you're dead! I'd run on surface with clear weather any time. Being spotted at 8 km is nothing, by the time a DD gets to where I was i'll be sneaking 200 deep and 5 miles away.

[Tobus]

The AI's ability to hear you depends on a few things:

A.) The state of the sea.
If the sea is calm, sonar conditions are greatly improved. If the sea is rough, sonar conditions are craptastic to say the least, and for you, this is good news.

b.) Engine RPMS.
It's not your speed per say that the AI qeues in on. Its your engines RPMs. When setting your speed, use the interior free cam and take a close look at your engines RPMS. 100 RPMs is usually the maximum i would go in a silent running scenario.

c.) Your position in relation to the escort. Looking back up at the picture of the aspect, you'll see a big semicircle around the destroyer. The area behind it, is its deafspot, or its baffeles. Its also deaf to anything DIRECTLY under it, at or around a radius of 10 meters. Depth charge attacks DO NOT mask your noise. Only when an escort is directly above you, or if you are directly behind an escort are you completely safe to use as many RPM's in your motors as your heart desires.


I was reading a book, "" U-boat killer" by retired destroyer captain Donald Macintyre (http://www.uboat.net/books/reviews.html/title/260), in which he clearly states that hydrophones were not used anymore on British subhunters since the 1e world war. ASDIC was the only means of hunting down u-boots. So what's this with "hearing" subs due to their enginenoise and other noises like pumps, reloading and repairwork? It seems to me everything of sound IS modelled in SH3/GWX.

Can you clarify?

[joea]

Ahh tobus, they used both, or to use the modern terms "passive" and "active" sonar. ASDIC just provided a more accurate way of pinpointing the sub's location and depth. Hydrophones were ONLY passive, if you look at the same site, http://www.uboat.net/allies/technical/asdic.htm it says:

ASDIC in a passive role

The device could also be used to listen as well as pinging. The propeller noises of the U-boat would sometimes be heard as well as its operation of various machinery and its use of compressed air in the ballast tanks to change depths. This was not very usual as one of the standard German tactics, when located, was to dive deep, rig for silent running and hide beneath a thermal layer at speeds slow enough to eliminate any cavitation from the propellers.

Problem of course is many SH3 skippers are not as careful as their real-life counterparts in keeping quiet.

[Tobus]

Thanks Joea, that clears that up! Do you know anything about my remark about DC's messing up ASDIC'ing for 10 minutes?

[joea]

Thanks Joea, that clears that up! Do you know anything about my remark about DC's messing up ASDIC'ing for 10 minutes?

I read they have, but not in SH3 apparently. I think GWX did something to simulate DCs messing up the ASDIC but not sure.

[Tobus]

Thanks Joea, that clears that up! Do you know anything about my remark about DC's messing up ASDIC'ing for 10 minutes?

I read they have, but not in SH3 apparently. I think GWX did something to simulate DCs messing up the ASDIC but not sure.

Don't think so. I got plastered bigtime last night by no less than 4 escorts. I lived to tell the tale, but at times it almost sounded like an MP-40 with DC's going of. Still, one of the buggers was happily pinging away at me.

[Tijn]

Great post, it was a really nice read. One question though, when talking about early war sonar en later war sonar. When was the change? somewhere late 42?

[raymond6751]

My Dad was in destroyers in the war. The best tactic used when multiple escorts were available was to have one stop and listen while the others pinged or circled. The circling ones were at a distance and the sub could hear those.

The listener would tell the others when the sub was heard.

Not all escorts, especially early war, had sonar. Hydrophones were the most widely used device until about 1941 mainly due to the need to pull a ship off duty to install, test, and train. They just didn't have enough escorts to release many to port.

Very early Canadian convoys often had only one or two ships with DC on board too. The others were dummy escorts, without even guns. They would harass the subs to keep them down while the convoy got away.

The movies don't show the reality of the situation faced by the Allies early in the war.

[Penelope_Grey]

One tip I have to offer on this when a destroyer is coming at you, because it is risky, and though it seems to work in early war.

when the destroyer is coming at you from whichever direction, crash dive and head down to 80m incase of Depth Charge drops. turn the U-Boat to face towards the oncoming destroyer, which will be going at ahead flank. As the Destroyer gets nearer, go silent and use silent speed (2kts). What I found is, the destroyer will pass over you heading to the location where he saw you on the surface BEFORE he goes active. Which gives you precious moments to get away from the spot where he seen you, and you can most of the time slip past them, they won't expect you to come towards them. If however they do go active, your acoustic profile will be at its most minimal so you may just get away with it. If not, deeper.

[Jimbuna]

Thanks Joea, that clears that up! Do you know anything about my remark about DC's messing up ASDIC'ing for 10 minutes?

I read they have, but not in SH3 apparently. I think GWX did something to simulate DCs messing up the ASDIC but not sure.

It is in GWX :yep: ...but only for a few minutes :arrgh!:

[Hitman]

One thing I don't see modelled in Ducimus 1st post is the lack of shallow depth coverage for sonars:hmm: A U-Boat at periscope depth can be heard by hydrophones, but can't be pinged by ASDIC. Why is the asdic cone then fully convering all area till the surface? I believe I saw a "MinDepth" para meter in SH3 Mini Tweaker (Set to zero in both stock SH3 and GWX), while it should have been deeper. Anyone can confirm the effect of that parameter and if reads the depth of sonar cone at the maximum horizontal range?

[P_Funk]

Any advice about the actual pinging and how to know when they've locked onto you or if they are just pinging randomly?

I'm curious becuase sometimes when I'm being pinged its like they're right on top of me and the frequency of the pings increases til I get the classic "depth charges in the water sir". However sometimes its like they're pinging and they pass nearby and don't pick me up.

[Ducimus]

One thing I don't see modelled in Ducimus 1st post is the lack of shallow depth coverage for sonars:hmm: A U-Boat at periscope depth can be heard by hydrophones, but can't be pinged by ASDIC.

In GW11A that was true, but not in GWX. Theres a Min and Max elevation of trhe beam. A minElevation of 0 means the beam is horizontal to the surface with no blind area. In GW11a there was a min elevation of like 9 or 15 or some such number, which angled the upper part of the beam downward, creating a blind spot. This is why people could stay at periscope depth and not get pinged. I always thought this was really cheesy and am glad it was removed in GWX.


Any advice about the actual pinging and how to know when they've locked onto you or if they are just pinging randomly?


Nope. They generally don't ping without reason, but just because their pinging doesnt neccessarily mean they have a strong signal on your position.

[KeptinCranky]

I really really wish I had read this entire thread in the quiet moments at work before doing this:


http://home.wanadoo.nl/omf17235/images/Re-exposurewoohood2.jpg

Maybe the brave crew of U-36 might have returned home to collect their medals and appreciation from the Frauleins :-?

The 5 tribal DDs escorting this here HMS Hood really didn't appreciate me doing this

My first patrol in GWX, what an introduction :o :up: :up: :rock:

[sth128]

I really really wish I had read this entire thread in the quiet moments at work before doing this:

Maybe the brave crew of U-36 might have returned home to collect their medals and appreciation from the Frauleins :-?

The 5 tribal DDs escorting this here HMS Hood really didn't appreciate me doing this

My first patrol in GWX, what an introduction :o :up: :up: :rock:My first patrol after GWX, I got pwnd by a cargo ship with one deck gun (yes, I used to play stock SH3 with my deck gun blazing, using torpedo only as back up... I was a good shot, usually taking out their deck gun within seconds!)

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

I really really wish I had read this entire thread in the quiet moments at work before doing this:

Maybe the brave crew of U-36 might have returned home to collect their medals and appreciation from the Frauleins :-?

The 5 tribal DDs escorting this here HMS Hood really didn't appreciate me doing this

My first patrol in GWX, what an introduction :o :up: :up: :rock:My first patrol after GWX, I got pwnd by a cargo ship with one deck gun (yes, I used to play stock SH3 with my deck gun blazing, using torpedo only as back up... I was a good shot, usually taking out their deck gun within seconds!)

same problem here but with torpedo's.
i used to destroy most ships with 1 torpedo. but now i have to use 3 or more :damn:

[CaptainAsh]

Actualy, a lot of ship in GWX are still going down with just one torpedo but it s taking a long time. Often more than an hour and sometime you don t get credit for the kill. It looks like there is a lot of factor to decide if you get credit or not such as where you are when the ship went down, the weather, etc...
It looks like the harder the weather is, the more often you don t get credit. Maybe it s because the weather is adding damage to your own and then the weather is credited for the kill. I dunno :hmm:

[Jimbuna]

Ships in GWX no longer sink only based on damage, but also flooding. To obtain credit you need to stay within approximate area of the vessel.
Bad weather is treated by the game engine as damage. :arrgh!:

[sth128]

Well most cargos go down after one fish. I'm an impatient man so if the ship doesn't go down after five minutes I just hit it again in a different spot...

I wonder, what would happen if I turn on the "realistic sinking time" option in difficulties with GWX installed? Will ships all never sink until WWII is over?

They should adjust the formula to accomadate for impatient players... Not that I'm ungrateful for GWX, it's 99.999% perfect as is... I just... have ADD...

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

ah ok.... good to know. :up:

does ramming a ship results damage to the ship or just to your sub ?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

ah ok.... good to know. :up:

does ramming a ship results damage to the ship or just to your sub ?

Both. :arrgh!:

[P_Funk]

ah ok.... good to know. :up:

does ramming a ship results damage to the ship or just to your sub ?
Both. :arrgh!:
Trust me. You get the worst of it.

[sth128]

ah ok.... good to know. :up:

does ramming a ship results damage to the ship or just to your sub ?
Both. :arrgh!: Trust me. You get the worst of it.
Yeah... Trying to damage their ship... That's what I was trying to do...
*shifty eyes*

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1461/beer1he0.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beer1he0.jpg)
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1820/beer2ba3.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beer2ba3.jpg)

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

ah ok.... good to know. :up:

does ramming a ship results damage to the ship or just to your sub ?
Both. :arrgh!: Trust me. You get the worst of it.
Yeah... Trying to damage their ship... That's what I was trying to do...
*shifty eyes*

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1461/beer1he0.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beer1he0.jpg)
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1820/beer2ba3.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beer2ba3.jpg)

i think thats becouse bernard is in your engine room messing with the controls :rotfl:
happent to me to :shifty: i got stuck INSIDE the ship and sank with it

[cunnutazzo]

played GWX for 2 campaigns and it is enough for me, I went back to the vanilla version of SH3 plus some eye candy mods. I liked the challenging AI DD ability, but I didn't like some few particulars: why some bullets from gun's planes reduced my hull at 76% very easily, and why my guns are so weak agaisnt enemy boats and merchants? Also the vanilla version of the ocean has a better appearance on my monitor. Playing the vanilla SH3 I'm missing the escorted merchants.

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

played GWX for 2 campaigns and it is enough for me, I went back to the vanilla version of SH3 plus some eye candy mods. I liked the challenging AI DD ability, but I didn't like some few particulars: why some bullets from gun's planes reduced my hull at 76% very easily, and why my guns are so weak agaisnt enemy boats and merchants? Also the vanilla version of the ocean has a better appearance on my monitor. Playing the vanilla SH3 I'm missing the escorted merchants.

yea thats tru.

i always liked to blast them to smitherines with the deck gun...

but there is a mod (a bit cheating) called UBERBOOT wich can destroy enemy ships in 10 seconds.
and if you hit a destroyer in his side he is dead imediatly...

i played with uberboot 1 mission and look what my kill's were
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6019/sh3loggbookos8.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5277/sh3loggbook2lp4.jpg
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5586/sh3loggbook3dk0.jpg

the only bad thing is... it doesnt work with SH3commander :shifty:

[cunnutazzo]

uberboot could be good, but it is too "uber" for my taste, I wish my boat a bit stronger and not almost sink for some bullets hits. :lol:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

played GWX for 2 campaigns and it is enough for me, I went back to the vanilla version of SH3 plus some eye candy mods. I liked the challenging AI DD ability, but I didn't like some few particulars: why some bullets from gun's planes reduced my hull at 76% very easily, and why my guns are so weak agaisnt enemy boats and merchants? Also the vanilla version of the ocean has a better appearance on my monitor. Playing the vanilla SH3 I'm missing the escorted merchants.

Because the U-boat hull is a pressure hull... not an armored hull. There is an enormous difference between the two concepts.

U-boats could take very little in the way of direct-fire projectile damage. You will find no "Tiger Tank U-boats" in GWX.

Gentlemen lets stay on topic please.

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

uberboot could be good, but it is too "uber" for my taste, I wish my boat a bit stronger and not almost sink for some bullets hits. :lol:

beleve me it isnt that uber...
got killed in the 2cond mission with uberboot...

sank 10 ships and got destroyed by a elco torpedo boat (who fired 2 torpedo's)

[joea]

uberboot could be good, but it is too "uber" for my taste, I wish my boat a bit stronger and not almost sink for some bullets hits. :lol:
beleve me it isnt that uber...
got killed in the 2cond mission with uberboot...

sank 10 ships and got destroyed by a elco torpedo boat (who fired 2 torpedo's)

What game are you playing? SHIII doesn't have Elcos or anything other than the player's sub that fires torpedos!! :shifty:

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

uberboot could be good, but it is too "uber" for my taste, I wish my boat a bit stronger and not almost sink for some bullets hits. :lol:
beleve me it isnt that uber...
got killed in the 2cond mission with uberboot...

sank 10 ships and got destroyed by a elco torpedo boat (who fired 2 torpedo's)

What game are you playing? SHIII doesn't have Elcos or anything other than the player's sub that fires torpedos!! :shifty:

with mods it does :shifty:...
there is a mod wich allows torpedo boats to fire torpedo's i just forgot the name...
il take a look at my mods and il tell you when i found it

[Jimbuna]

@joea

Have a look here matey...this is what I reckon he's using :up:
http://web.telia.com/~u18230645/

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/14/ddssh404xa0pc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

@joea

Have a look here matey...this is what I reckon he's using :up:
http://web.telia.com/~u18230645/

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/14/ddssh404xa0pc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

thats the one :yep:

the mod is called PT boats_mod

[HM.Medico]

Once I get GWX This is going to be helpful :D

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

those torpedo boats are a pain in the arse... the can sink you with just 3 or 4 torpedo's :dead:

[joea]

@joea

Have a look here matey...this is what I reckon he's using :up:
http://web.telia.com/~u18230645/

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/14/ddssh404xa0pc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

thats the one :yep:

the mod is called PT boats_mod

COOL!! Thanks Jimbuna will go get that so I can get torpedoed by those lil bastards. :smug:

:doh: :88) :dead:

Sorry Mohr, didn't think you were making it up just never saw that.

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

@joea

Have a look here matey...this is what I reckon he's using :up:
http://web.telia.com/~u18230645/

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/14/ddssh404xa0pc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

thats the one :yep:

the mod is called PT boats_mod

COOL!! Thanks Jimbuna will go get that so I can get torpedoed by those lil bastards. :smug:

:doh: :88) :dead:

Sorry Mohr, didn't think you were making it up just never saw that.

ah its ok... i never saw it either untill i got on that page...
its just hilarious to get killed by those basterds

[Chisum]

I read the first message attentively and I don't understand why I'm sunk by depth charges, all hands lost at 235 meters ?
According to what is written in the first message in 1940 it is not possible.

There is some cheat code that I have not ?
:down:

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

no cheats...
in real life some kaleuns reported of deapth charges exploding on 250m
ater even 300 i think :hmm: i readed it once...

[Chisum]

no cheats...
in real life some kaleuns reported of deapth charges exploding on 250m
ater even 300 i think :hmm: i readed it once...

In June 1940 ?
Are you sure ?
:-?

Anyway, it was a very shocking experience for me.
After a very crazy attack in the middle of a convoy I had turned to 180° and asked 150 meters, 1 knauts.
A Destroyer Hunt 1 was 3 miles behind me.
In the first strike I had some damage which was quickly repaired but the boat goes down very fast.
I secure the ship at 235 meters and I was very enjoyed(really !).
And there is the Hunt for the strike 2...
No one chance to the crew.
Aufiedersehen Herr Kaleun...
:cry:
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8386/303vc4.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=303vc4.jpg)

I was really shocked even if it is only a game because I was sure to have escaped.
Now I think that's impossible to play whit the convoy...
What can I do to make the job effectively and quietly ?

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

no cheats...
in real life some kaleuns reported of deapth charges exploding on 250m
ater even 300 i think :hmm: i readed it once...

In June 1940 ?
Are you sure ?
:-?

Anyway, it was a very shocking experience for me.
After a very crazy attack in the middle of a convoy I had turned to 180° and asked 150 meters, 1 knauts.
A Destroyer Hunt 1 was 3 miles behind me.
In the first strike I had some damage which was quickly repaired but the boat goes down very fast.
I secure the ship at 235 meters and I was very enjoyed(really !).
And there is the Hunt for the strike 2...
No one chance to the crew.
Aufiedersehen Herr Kaleun...
:cry:
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8386/303vc4.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=303vc4.jpg)

I was really shocked even if it is only a game because I was sure to have escaped.
Now I think that's impossible to play whit the convoy...
What can I do to make the job effectively and quietly ?

i was shocked to when i got DCed on 250m (i was sinking already) and got some critical hits.
it coused havy flooding and i sank fast. ended up on 290m and got crushed

[kiwi_2005]

GWX AI are pussies:yep:

Started career last nite, 1940 Lorient, Type IXB, tonnage sunk 68000 for first patrol. 84% realism.

Came across a taskforce in BE92 heading north, travelling fast, I was well ahead of them so turned motors off and laid in wait for my prey. Two destroyers sailed right past me one just inches away.
i snuck past the destroyer screen to sink a carrier and cruiser the cruiser wasn't intentional he happen to just be in the way of my torpedos as they were heading to the carrier. :rotfl:

*** Yeah i know its only 1940, wait till 42 i'll probably wont even survive getting out of the bay of biscay ***

What i might add and wasn't expecting is just after i had attack this taskforce i was heading back to port fuel was low, where i came across a large convoy, with 5 torpedos left i thought bugger the fuel and gave chase. Got within 6000yrds and used external view to go have a look, first thing i spotted was a few ships on fire including two escorts "WTF" BUGS! huh! so much for the beta testers :roll: Then i realise this was no bug this was the result of another uboat attack, possibly a wolfpack attack cause i found a VIIB lying vertically in the water! Their she was bobbing in the ocean with her bow sticking out of the water, i felt like saying a little prayer for those poor bastards trapped inside but then snapped out of it and told myself this maybe realistic man but its just a game! :rotfl:

I struck home for my fellow uboat men by sinking 1 cargo and a escort. That was an awesome patrol.

Oh BTW i ran out of fuel on my way back.... to greedy :rotfl::rotfl:


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a390/Kiwi_Frank/Results.jpg

[Salvadoreno]

Oct 1941
SC-107
Heading 6 degrees at 5 knots Am78

Well. Ive been playing GWX 1.04 for about 3 patrols now. Its all still fairly new to me. I have yet to be DC'ed though currently (patrol 3) i fell back from a convoy after hitting 3 ships all that sank. I approached in front of the convoy, snuck into their positions without the Destroyer pinging me once, came up again aft of the konvoi right next to a small merchant. Sunk that too without a destroyer finding me. Now.. its 1941... from my experience with NYGM which i have been running since it first came out, i felt that GWX might be a little easier. I sunk 3 ships without 1 ping or without a destroyer even coming close to my position. I havent been pinged in 3 patrols.. Ive had 1 kinda weak konvoi attack where i fell outta position in patrol 2 but sunk 1 ship without ping, and this one.

[Jimbuna]

Oct 1941
SC-107
Heading 6 degrees at 5 knots Am78

Well. Ive been playing GWX 1.04 for about 3 patrols now. Its all still fairly new to me. I have yet to be DC'ed though currently (patrol 3) i fell back from a convoy after hitting 3 ships all that sank. I approached in front of the convoy, snuck into their positions without the Destroyer pinging me once, came up again aft of the konvoi right next to a small merchant. Sunk that too without a destroyer finding me. Now.. its 1941... from my experience with NYGM which i have been running since it first came out, i felt that GWX might be a little easier. I sunk 3 ships without 1 ping or without a destroyer even coming close to my position. I havent been pinged in 3 patrols.. Ive had 1 kinda weak konvoi attack where i fell outta position in patrol 2 but sunk 1 ship without ping, and this one.

I consider you to be such a lucky person :yep:
Will you do me the honour of filling in my lottery ticket at the weekend? :up:
The numbers are 1-49 and you need to pick six :know:

[Salvadoreno]

Oct 1941
SC-107
Heading 6 degrees at 5 knots Am78

Well. Ive been playing GWX 1.04 for about 3 patrols now. Its all still fairly new to me. I have yet to be DC'ed though currently (patrol 3) i fell back from a convoy after hitting 3 ships all that sank. I approached in front of the convoy, snuck into their positions without the Destroyer pinging me once, came up again aft of the konvoi right next to a small merchant. Sunk that too without a destroyer finding me. Now.. its 1941... from my experience with NYGM which i have been running since it first came out, i felt that GWX might be a little easier. I sunk 3 ships without 1 ping or without a destroyer even coming close to my position. I havent been pinged in 3 patrols.. Ive had 1 kinda weak konvoi attack where i fell outta position in patrol 2 but sunk 1 ship without ping, and this one.

I consider you to be such a lucky person :yep:
Will you do me the honour of filling in my lottery ticket at the weekend? :up:
The numbers are 1-49 and you need to pick six :know:

haha i thought so.. But AGAIN i was chasing that same knvoi after i fell back. Accidently came starboard of the konvoi in fog and 8m/s winds at 4500m and was spotted! Those bastards on their first shot hit my port tubes and damaged them so i dove to 80m and figured uh oh.. luck is up...

Well. Not 1 ping. And they didnt even pass within 200m of my boat. Booo.. WHats the deal?? Im still submerged and they are still looking, but well aft of my boat. Im going to come up for another attack on that konvoi. I might just have my best attack of my entire sh3 career on a konvoi. 3 ships down so far, and i am planning on another 2. Where is my wolfpack!! Lets make this another PQ-17!!! These brits are green!!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

If you are submerged near the convoy, and they are not attempting to ping you... apparently the active sensor is the hydrophone....

As far as looking for you elsewhere... The way the game operates, they search from your last "known" location.

It could be as simple as low crew quality of the enemy vessels.

Run a career in 1944... and (hopefully) life should be more difficult. (as it should be)

Opinions regarding GWX sensors run from one end of the spectrum to the other.:)

[Kitzbuell]

I'm sure many players still aren't aware that lowering your speed at silent running to 2k will make a big difference and therefore probably haven't added the Dec. 23 fix either, for one reason or another. I've found that once that is accomplished, there is nothing exceptionally tough about avoiding damage, as long as I have some depth to work with and the war is still in a fairly early point in time. :yep:

And remember what Ducimus has showed you. It can be an advantage to run at a shallower depth to keep your acute angle towards a ship at a minimum, if possible.

Ducimus:

Great explanation of many facets/techniques I was aware of and one I had totally wrong {I could have sworn that when I first purchased SH3 years ago that I read somewhere that your sub's movements (both hydrophone and asdic) would be temporarily masked.}.

[To FredBass:

What exactly was the "Dec. 23 fix"?]

[Jimbuna]

IIRC the Dec 23rd fix/patch was used on the first release of GWX (hard to keep track) :D
If you are using GWX v1.03 it is already included :yep:

[Kitzbuell]

Ships in GWX no longer sink only based on damage, but also flooding. To obtain credit you need to stay within approximate area of the vessel.
Bad weather is treated by the game engine as damage. :arrgh!:

I suspected as much after trying to stick with a crippled "Revenge" only to be chased by DD's until it put so much distance between us that by the time I was able to relocate the convoy it had disappeared from the surface and my crew received no credit for their hard work or the pounding they survived by the DC attack that went on for hours following our strike. :hmm:

[Stary Wuj]

In real life was much easier, YEAR 1939, very bad weather, my speed 2 kts,
they exactly know where I'm (my depths 40-150m.) - IN HEAVY STORM!

This is not realism.

Best Regards

Stary Wuj

[Kpt. Lehmann]

In real life was much easier, YEAR 1939, very bad weather, my speed 2 kts,
they exactly know where I'm (my depths 40-150m.) - IN HEAVY STORM!

This is not realism.

Best Regards

Stary Wuj

The AI responses in SH3 and GWX are not perfect... and there is no way to make them perfect for all circumstances.

However, even in 1939 the ASW forces should be relatively tough... not too easy. 57 U-boats were available for service during 1939, and in the few months of fighting in 1939, nine U-boats were lost. This is about a 16% loss rate. Quite significant I think.

The enemy in GWX does not automatically detect you. Something had to happen to alert them to your presence.

[Stary Wuj]

Kpt. Lehmann --> just courious - All DD's in GWX are "expert" from the start ?
You see, I really like GWX, but there is no way (for example) to attack convoy at night on the surface (like in real life).
I was spotted by DD (Year 1940) from 1,5 km. distance on periscope depth in
rough sea state, can You see periscope from 1,5 km. in bad weather conditions ?

:D

Only 2 examples, but no doubt, something wrong with GWX AI..........

Best Regards

Stary Wuj

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Kpt. Lehmann --> just courious - All DD's in GWX are "expert" from the start ?
You see, I really like GWX, but there is no way (for example) to attack convoy at night on the surface (like in real life).
I was spotted by DD (Year 1940) from 1,5 km. distance on periscope depth in
rough sea state, can You see periscope from 1,5 km. in bad weather conditions ?

:D

Only 2 examples, but no doubt, something wrong with GWX AI..........

Best Regards

Stary Wuj

Enemy crew proficiency is commensurate with the progression of the war. They are not all elite at the beginning of the war.

Check out this thread. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=116322

[Saldiray]

Hi. I've been playing SH3 1.4b with GWX 1.0 mod installed, for a while. On my last patrol i was detected by the lone escort of a convoy, on the hydrophones i could easily hear the escort speeding up for the attack run, but i was still being pinged so i decided to raise my scope to see where the other escort was but there were none! i checked on the hydrophones as well and it was the only warship in the area. And the lone escort continued to ping me till he was on top of me. I thought there should be a 200 mt def zone in front of the escort where he couldn't ping me anymore. What's wrong with it then? Is this some kind of side effect of GWX 1.0? OK, i see that escorts have UberAI, but lack of 200mt def zone isn't related to AI, i think.

[TarJak]

Hi. I've been playing SH3 1.4b with GWX 1.0 mod installed, for a while. On my last patrol i was detected by the lone escort of a convoy, on the hydrophones i could easily hear the escort speeding up for the attack run, but i was still being pinged so i decided to raise my scope to see where the other escort was but there were none! i checked on the hydrophones as well and it was the only warship in the area. And the lone escort continued to ping me till he was on top of me. I thought there should be a 200 mt def zone in front of the escort where he couldn't ping me anymore. What's wrong with it then? Is this some kind of side effect of GWX 1.0? OK, i see that escorts have UberAI, but lack of 200mt def zone isn't related to AI, i think.

Did you read the first post of this thread? I can't see any reference to a 200m def zone and in my experience there never has been one. what gave you the impression that there was one?

[Saldiray]

According to http://uboat.net/allies/technical/asdic.htm web page, the asdic contact was usually lost at 300 yards. This is the time the u-boat should try to evade any deptch charge attack. And if there wasn't a def zone of the asdic why would the escords need a weapon like "hedgehog"? As far as i know hedhehogs were fired just before the contact was lost on asdic.

[TarJak]

OK you are talking about the difference between real life and the game. There are a lot of things in SHIII which are not quite the way they were in RL.

I suggest reading the first post of this thread for a description on how ASDIC/SONAR works in SHIII and in particular with GWX. It actually discusses some of the reasons for the differences between RL and game.

This thread has some other useful information: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=105198

[Saldiray]

I've read the first page, but in stock SH3 i remember the escorts quit pinging before starting their attack run. But in GWX, if the escorts could ping me till they're on top of me how could i ever evade them?

PS: Thanks for the link, it's nice to see that i'm not the only one.

[Jimbuna]

There's one thing you can always depend on here.....whilst GWX exists you'll never be "the only one" :D

Good luck :arrgh!:

[ref]

I've read the first page, but in stock SH3 i remember the escorts quit pinging before starting their attack run. But in GWX, if the escorts could ping me till they're on top of me how could i ever evade them?

PS: Thanks for the link, it's nice to see that i'm not the only one.

The fact that the escorts are using they active sensors doesn't necesary mean that they have a fix on you, just that they're searching.

Ref

[Shelton]

Very informative article - thanks Ducimus!

[Shelton]

How does the AI calculate what depth to drop the charges? from re-reading this it is easy to avoid the charges in the early part of the war - just go deeper than 220meters!

[Shelton]

Hi. I've been playing SH3 1.4b with GWX 1.0 mod installed, for a while. On my last patrol i was detected by the lone escort of a convoy, on the hydrophones i could easily hear the escort speeding up for the attack run, but i was still being pinged so i decided to raise my scope to see where the other escort was but there were none! i checked on the hydrophones as well and it was the only warship in the area. And the lone escort continued to ping me till he was on top of me. I thought there should be a 200 mt def zone in front of the escort where he couldn't ping me anymore. What's wrong with it then? Is this some kind of side effect of GWX 1.0? OK, i see that escorts have UberAI, but lack of 200mt def zone isn't related to AI, i think.

Hello

When he is Pinging, he is sending a sound wave into the water so he is not pinging YOU directly, just that you are hearing the sound waves against your sub!

Regards
Shelton.

[Jimbuna]

The fact he is pinging does not automatically mean he has found you but rather that he is looking for you :yep:

[Shelton]

How does the AI calculate what depth to drop the charges? from re-reading this it is easy to avoid the charges in the early part of the war - just go deeper than 220meters!

Anyone know the answer to this question ?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

How does the AI calculate what depth to drop the charges? from re-reading this it is easy to avoid the charges in the early part of the war - just go deeper than 220meters!

Anyone know the answer to this question ?

When your sub is detected, the AI sensors calculate your depth in truth very precisely. (In stock SH3, DC's are entirely too accurate.) When the ashcans are dumped... a variable controls the exact depth at which they detonate plus or minus a random depth detonation factor.

The fact he is pinging does not automatically mean he has found you but rather that he is looking for you.

Exactly... as was already stated earlier on this thread.

[Brag]

Hi. I've been playing SH3 1.4b with GWX 1.0 mod installed, for a while. On my last patrol i was detected by the lone escort of a convoy, on the hydrophones i could easily hear the escort speeding up for the attack run, but i was still being pinged so i decided to raise my scope to see where the other escort was but there were none! i checked on the hydrophones as well and it was the only warship in the area. And the lone escort continued to ping me till he was on top of me. I thought there should be a 200 mt def zone in front of the escort where he couldn't ping me anymore. What's wrong with it then? Is this some kind of side effect of GWX 1.0? OK, i see that escorts have UberAI, but lack of 200mt def zone isn't related to AI, i think.

Irf you could see 'im with periscope, you were too bloody shallow, he can pick you up right to the moment he is on top of you.

Dead meat loves shallow subs.

[sasquatch]

Amazing thread:smug:

Querry - does passive sonar have a difficult time picking up your u-boat when its at periscope depth?

[danlisa]

Querry - does passive sonar have a difficult time picking up your u-boat when its at periscope depth?

In my experience it does BUT not all the time. Don't think that you can approach every contact at PD and not be detected.

I have been able to evade detection while remaining at PD whereas I have been detected at depths greater than 20m. I'm not sure if it's by design but it certainly does happen. Also, I'm sure this is not a GWX design but rather a SH3 limitation/quirk.

[KeptinCranky]

In my experience it seems to be related to sea state, this is by no means set in stone but when evading escorts in rough seas PD often works better than 30 meters or so, the problem is the conning tower breaching the surface, you don't want that, as a rule I set the depth to 17 meters or so in such situations.

It's definitely not a foolproof method, sometimes it works amazingly well, other times you're dead that much sooner

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Amazing thread:smug:

Querry - does passive sonar have a difficult time picking up your u-boat when its at periscope depth?

Sea state does indeed have an effect on hydrophones. (passive sonar)

It also has an effect on active sonar, but not nearly as much.

Are you safe at periscope depth?

Well, that depends on what you are doing, and the sensor in question.

If you are running around at flank speed and making lots of noise...

... yer gonna DIE!!! :cool:

Sneak to survive!

Read "Appendix C" in the GWX manual... and the 1943 Edition U-boat Commander's Handbook as translated by the U.S. Navy.

(With the latter you must listen to what is NOT being said to understand why different matters are important. The handbook sells cheap on Ebay. Got mine for six dollars.)

[Gorshkov]

Yes, Allied destroyers in GWX mod possess electronic suite probably taken from Dangerous Waters! :rotfl:

Yet more seriously: Can you give us some optional way (cheat or tweak GWX mod) to decrease DD sensors efficiency? Otherwise I am afraid many less experienced or impatient guys can no longer use GWX mod.

[TarJak]

Do you know the story of the young bull and the old bull?:know:

Impatience gets you sunk! That is the whole point of this mod! Learning to think like a RL Kaleun so that you consider whether or not to risk going a few knots faster and risk being heard or to take the time to set up an ambush properly and spring it so you kill and avoid being killed.:arrgh!:

[Gorshkov]

Impatience gets you sunk! That is the whole point of this mod! Learning to think like a RL Kaleun so that you consider whether or not to risk going a few knots faster and risk being heard or to take the time to set up an ambush properly and spring it so you kill and avoid being killed.:arrgh!:
I estimate your chance to kill and not to be killed in GWX mod for five to ten per cent unless you decelerate to zero knots, buddy! :damn:

[Penelope_Grey]

Correct.

I keep saying this, but I'll say it one more time. Quite often, simply sit on the surface and wait for the convoy to come to you (early war). Then fire. I think a lot of people wrongly assume they MUST be moving, well, no.

Many a time I've literally sat there on the surface at night waiting for the convoy to come my way. Then when its near, I fire my shots, THEN I very slowly... slowly... move away and get ready to push the C key at a moments notice.

It is perfectly possible to escape a convoy attack on the surface.

[TarJak]

Spot on Pen!

@Gorskov,

GWX is all about getting into a good position and setting the trap. A U-boat is an ambush predator, not a chase and kill predator. The chase should be done out of sight of the convoy. You should get ahead of them and then lie in wait. I've lost count of the number of times I've sat at around 18m, silent and engines stopped waiting as the forward escort rumbles by. When you are in his baffles, slow ahead up to PD and then commence the attack when the targets are in range, order the boat to 100m still at slow, immediately after firing and then slide out the back of the convoy as the torpedo hits register. By the time they locate you you are long gone.

All the info on how to do this in on the boards here.

That said I've posted elsewhere on being able to do a surface approach at flank speed and survived after sinking a Large Merchant!

I also have had my share of getting creamed, usually because I make a mistake. Certainly not because the GWX AI is too hard.

I haven't sat down and accurately calculated it, but from practise and patience I now survive more than 90% of encounters in early war and more than 50% in late war, buddy!:arrgh!:

What's your hurry?

[Gorshkov]

Theoretically all your hints are right. Surely many times it is possible to sunk enemy shipping and escape to safety using described above tactics. Unfortunately also many times I and many other players experienced an "uber-AI" DD succesful attack on my U-boot in situations when it was simply impossible to detect and track my sub.

This is my biggest accusation relating to GWX mod.

However I must also admit that I can't hit Allied merchants quite often because I haven't mastered fully manual torpedo targeting "three minutes rule" so far.

By the way: Is it any remarkable difference between DD's AI efficiency in GWX and NYGM mods?

[TarJak]

:roll: Clearly it was not impossible otherwise the sensors would not have picked you up. :88) If you can give an example of a situation where you should not get detected maybe we can provide some advice on how to avoid detection.

The first posts of this thread provide a good idea of how to beat the escorts and attack.

GWX requires a shift in mindset and tactics from stock SHIII. Using tactics that avoid detection is required for success with GWX. Stock was way too easy to get away with chugging in at any old speed to attack a convoy.

It took me about 2 nights of practise to come up with ways of sneaking in without detection and now I do it without thinking about it. Sometimes I don't think enough so I end up getting detected as well. That's when learning how to evade comes in. Dive as deep as you dare and then either stop engines and go silent or drop your revs and slooooowly cruise. Only make turns using <10 degrees rudder to keep you going at 2kt. When you hear engines and splashes above, hit flank but make sure you stop flank in less than 30 seconds after the last DC explosion. It's pretty simple stuff and it works very well on single DD's, less well when there are a number of them but sometimes it still works even then.

This guy cruised past me at 35kt and didn't even drop a DC!
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa54/TarJak/SHOT2156.jpg

Don't relax until you are well clear of them and don't do snap turns unless you are in a situation where they DEFINITELY cannot hear you.

[Gorshkov]

How could he drop DCs if he couldn't hear you at all?

I don't use type IX crappy behemot at all if possible! It is too easy target for enemy warships. Its advanteges are very illusory but weaknesses - very deleterious.

I always prefer type VIIC instead.

[TarJak]

Correct he couldn't hear me even though I was travelling at 2kt but sped up to standard once in his baffles. I trailed along behind him running up to flank for another hour without him hearing me at all.

BTW that is a Type VIIC not a IX. I use both and both are pretty good when used properly although the IX is a bigger target. I quite like the IXD2.:arrgh!:

[ref]

How could he drop DCs if he couldn't hear you at all?

I don't use type IX crappy behemot at all if possible! It is too easy target for enemy warships. Its advanteges are very illusory but weaknesses - very deleterious.

I always prefer type VIIC instead.

The sea state is very important also, in a calm sea even at 2 knots there's a big chance that they can pick you up, also remember that even if a DD is making an attack run at high speed if there's another in the vicinity it is certainly at low speed using his passive sensors and guiding the other.

The bottom line is, and forgive me if I'm rude, is that GWX sensors will remain the way they are, what we're trying to do is to simulate the conditions a uboat captain had to endure during the war, even so the chances of surviving in GWX are far better than they had in real life, if you don't like them, or you can't learn how to play well enough, you can always uninstall GWX, there are other excelent mods that you can try untill you find one that's easy enough for your skill levels.

Ref

[melnibonian]

Well said Ref :yep:

As an "old GWX player" myself I have to say that Penny, TJ and ref are spot on. The AI of GWX is tricky and as the years get by is becoming more and more deadly but that doesn't mean you cannot survive. If you follow the advices of Penny and TJ and you try to incorporate them in your own type of play I am sure you will see that outsmarting the DDs is difficult (later in the war) but not impossible. Another option you have is to alter the realism levels you're playing. Lower them a bit, give it a try and start to increase them as you get more confortable with your boat and the game. Finally don't forget that most of the U-Boats that went on patrols never came back (especially after 1943) due to the allied air patrols (planes were the single higher killer of U-Boats) and the escorts. This trend is followed and modelled in GWX although as ref said it is not as difficult to survive as it was in real life.

In any case remember that it's just a game and try to enjoy it in any way you can. If you still feel not happy with the AI of GWX you can either try to alter the files on your own (it's a bit difficult and probably will cause trouble to your installation) or you can chose another mod.

Enjoy your SH3 experience and I hope you find the game/technique/mod that suits your type of play :yep:

[Gorshkov]

Let's clear one thing here. I have played only stock SHIII until recently. Now I switched to GWX mod because I heard many opinions it is the best SHIII mod available. What I discovered immediately is a big hole between GWX mod and stock game in dealing with convoy's escort. So I reviewed other opinions in this matter on the Internet and found similar points of view.
Unfortunately I don't know any other SHIII mod and that is why I can't compare each other in terms of AI difficulty level. Yet if you write here it is possible to master hunting convoys in the GWX mod but with a huge amount of time and work needed, it is all OK. I like ambitious challenges!

As for reality: It is truth that after June 1943 vast majority of U-boot missions was almost a suicide. However in the game it is a stupid idea to play 1943-1945 missions being sure you most certainly won't return from the patrol. Nobody wants to play such game so a very little people would buy it. That is why game developers decided to decrease Allied ASW capabilities in the war's late period, in my opinion. The GWX mod reverses this and that is why you can't be surprised many players feel uncomfortable switching to GWX mod.

[ref]

Let's clear one thing here. I have played only stock SHIII until recently. Now I switched to GWX mod because I heard many opinions it is the best SHIII mod available. What I discovered immediately is a big hole between GWX mod and stock game in dealing with convoy's escort. So I reviewed other opinions in this matter on the Internet and found similar points of view.
Unfortunately I don't know any other SHIII mod and that is why I can't compare each other in terms of AI difficulty level. Yet if you write here it is possible to master hunting convoys in the GWX mod but with a huge amount of time and work needed, it is all OK. I like ambitious challenges!

As for reality: It is truth that after June 1943 vast majority of U-boot missions was almost a suicide. However in the game it is a stupid idea to play 1943-1945 missions being sure you most certainly won't return from the patrol. Nobody wants to play such game so a very little people would buy it. That is why game developers decided to decrease Allied ASW capabilities in the war's late period, in my opinion. The GWX mod reverses this and that is why you can't be surprised many players feel uncomfortable switching to GWX mod.

The best advice I can give you is patience, don't guide yourself by how hollywood movies depict submarine attacks, plan carefully before engaging combat, study the behaviour of the escorts for holes in their patterns (even if you need to let them pass away the first time), let the convoy approach you, not you approach it, try to point your sub towards the convoy to give a smaller surface and steer to a fire position at the last moment , if you miss the entrance window pull back and try again later (remember that if you're detected the escorts remain at higher alert state for a few hours), if the weather is in the extremes (too bad or too good) it goes against you, and more important don't get greedy, pick a couple of targets in a convoy shoot two or three eels at each and run, start evasive maneuvers before the escorts start seeking you, go at least 90 mts deep as fast as you can without drawing too much attention and then goto 2 knots (1 better), pick the fastest way out, go to a safe distance and then flank speed to start the attack again, if you stay at pd in the middle of the convoy watching the fireworks or waiting for another target you're almost dead.

Ref

[melnibonian]

As for reality: It is truth that after June 1943 vast majority of U-boot missions was almost a suicide. However in the game it is a stupid idea to play 1943-1945 missions being sure you most certainly won't return from the patrol. Nobody wants to play such game so a very little people would buy it. That is why game developers decided to decrease Allied ASW capabilities in the war's late period, in my opinion. The GWX mod reverses this and that is why you can't be surprised many players feel uncomfortable switching to GWX mod.

I think Ref covered the isse in his response. What I want to say is that GWX is significantly easier to survive late in the war than in reality. It is true that it is difficult to survive but if you follow the advices posted above you will manage to do it. GWX is the most popular mod not because the AI is deadly but because it manages to keep a fine balance between simulation and game pleasure. Most players find it difficult in the begining but after a while you will learn to play and think as a real U-Boat Captain (within the limitations of the game engine obviously) and the game will become an addiction. GWX is a really good game and if you are patient you will have loads of hours of happy play time. My suggestion as I said before is to follow the advices of the other Captains, lower the realism settings to get yourself confortable with the game and the boat and feel free to ask questions in the forum.

[Jimbuna]

[quote=Gorshkov] Yet if you write here it is possible to master hunting convoys in the GWX mod but with a huge amount of time and work needed, it is all OK. I like ambitious challenges!
quote]

Then GWX is definitely for you. ;)

[quote=Gorshkov]As for reality: It is truth that after June 1943 vast majority of U-boot missions was almost a suicide. However in the game it is a stupid idea to play 1943-1945 missions being sure you most certainly won't return from the patrol. Nobody wants to play such game so a very little people would buy it. That is why game developers decided to decrease Allied ASW capabilities in the war's late period, in my opinion. The GWX mod reverses this and that is why you can't be surprised many players feel uncomfortable switching to GWX mod.
quote]

Can't possibly comment on what the game developers did, and or why :nope:
But I can say that IMO, this is the fine balancing act the GWX team have laboured long and hard over.............how to mix immersion and realism and accuracy into a commodity that best pleases as many people as possible. :arrgh!:

[Gorshkov]

I was convinced by your comments so I'll try to master GWX convoy battles altrough I know it can take long time.

If I feel watching sinking ships is too painful I definately resign playing SHIII but now my VIIC U-boot departs on patrol from Keroman base. Bye! :cool:

One more question for you: Is it much easier to fight convoys in GWX mod using type XXI sub during 1944-1945 time period?

[bigboywooly]

1944\45 isnt easy for anything
:rotfl:

The 21 makes it easier than any other boat though

[Jimbuna]

1944\45 isnt easy for anything
:rotfl:

The 21 makes it easier than any other boat though

Amen to that brother http://imgcash4.imageshack.us/img504/2364/submarinecp8.gif

[sasquatch]

1944\45 isnt easy for anything
:rotfl:

The 21 makes it easier than any other boat though

How far out does Allied radar reach in those years?

[Jimbuna]

1944\45 isnt easy for anything
:rotfl:

The 21 makes it easier than any other boat though

How far out does Allied radar reach in those years?

Surface or airborne? :hmm:

[sasquatch]

1944\45 isnt easy for anything
:rotfl:

The 21 makes it easier than any other boat though
How far out does Allied radar reach in those years?
Surface or airborne? :hmm:

both I guess. I'm primarily concerned with surface ships right now though.

[Gorshkov]

Do destroyers in GWX mod have any kind of towed array hydrophones?

[Jimbuna]

Do destroyers in GWX mod have any kind of towed array hydrophones?

Not in v1.03

We tried lassooing a few dolphins during the beta stage but Greenpeace got wind of it and threatened to picket TS and The Lair.
Later on we tried it with a few of the crew but they forgot to mention they couldn't swim so we decided to wait till the mermaids got used to us and became a little friendlier.
Who knows....perhaps in the next version :arrgh!:

[Gorshkov]

I didn't mean present towed array sonars but I am not sure whether or not some towed hydrophones were used or even researched during WWII...

[TarJak]

@Gorshkov, No towed hydrophones in GWX or SH3. I believe there were some late war experimentation as a means of combatting the presense of a thermocline, however they were never in widespread use during WWII at least not in the Atlantic where thermoclines usually developed well below the depths that contemporary submarine technology could have reached.

[Gorshkov]

Thanks! I simply thought it could be a good explanation of incredible DD searching efficiency.

Where can I get on the Internet precise U-boot numbers by type in Kriegsmarine's active service during 1939-1945 period in yearly perspective?

[melnibonian]

Where can I get on the Internet precise U-boot numbers by type in Kriegsmarine's active service during 1939-1945 period in yearly perspective?
Have a look through this site http://www.uboat.net/

[kaarlo]

Well, when we are discussing about GWX AI, I would like to share a strange episode that I met in the game.

I was raiding the port of Cape Town, and had scored a beautiful hit on a large tanker. I was sneaking away, when one of those bloody armed trawlers found me. Depth under keel was 15 m, and my sonarman told me that three more trawlers were closing. That's it, I thought, it was a nice career.

But. The four trawlers catched me, but instead of depth-charging my poor U-131, they started circeling the boat. They ran around me as dancing around in an ring, newer coming closer than 200 m. This went on about half an hour, when I decided to slowly sneak away. No success, the followed, continuing with their strange manner. There seemed not to be any way out of the situation, until I decided to try to fool them.

Since they never came closer than 200 m, I decided to sneak as close the shore as possible. What would they do if there was only 100 m of water between me and the shore?

An educated guess, anyone?

Yes, all of them ran aground. And then I finished them one by one, with eels.

Does somebody know why the trawlers behaved so strangely? Has anyone had a similar experience?

I'm using GWX 1.3 and the newest Commander.

[KeptinCranky]

oh yes, seen stuff like that, it's either they don't have any dcs or don't drop them for fear of blowing themselves up as well, which happens sometimes. I've a picture of a Flower Corvette dropping charges on my boat in shallow water, missing and sinking itself.

If they'd run aground, why waste precious eels on them? you could have made some distance at high submerged speed, gone silent, made a course change and be off to hunt bigger game....

[sasquatch]

oh yes, seen stuff like that, it's either they don't have any dcs or don't drop them for fear of blowing themselves up as well, which happens sometimes. I've a picture of a Flower Corvette dropping charges on my boat in shallow water, missing and sinking itself.

If they'd run aground, why waste precious eels on them? you could have made some distance at high submerged speed, gone silent, made a course change and be off to hunt bigger game....

I'd love to see the picture of that Flower.