GWX's "uber" AI demystified

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well, when we are discussing about GWX AI, I would like to share a strange episode that I met in the game.

I was raiding the port of Cape Town, and had scored a beautiful hit on a large tanker. I was sneaking away, when one of those bloody armed trawlers found me. Depth under keel was 15 m, and my sonarman told me that three more trawlers were closing. That's it, I thought, it was a nice career.

But. The four trawlers catched me, but instead of depth-charging my poor U-131, they started circeling the boat. They ran around me as dancing around in an ring, newer coming closer than 200 m. This went on about half an hour, when I decided to slowly sneak away. No success, the followed, continuing with their strange manner. There seemed not to be any way out of the situation, until I decided to try to fool them.

Since they never came closer than 200 m, I decided to sneak as close the shore as possible. What would they do if there was only 100 m of water between me and the shore?

An educated guess, anyone?

Yes, all of them ran aground. And then I finished them one by one, with eels.

Does somebody know why the trawlers behaved so strangely? Has anyone had a similar experience?

I'm using GWX 1.3 and the newest Commander.

Part of the problem is that the enamy ASW sensors (and player sensors for that matter) see right through things like LAND MASSES that should mask the sensor but do not.:nope:

Sorry mate. Some behaviors from stock SH3 we just cannot fix. The actual AI in SH3 is hard-coded. We can change sensor parameters and sensitivities all day long... However, they will unfortunately remain immune to things/objects that should block/mask their ability to function.

Also, another game bug that we cannot fix:
If you save your game within 35 Km of scripted traffic, it can/will LOSE its scripted waypoints and continue in a straight line, regardless of what lay ahead.

Recommend not saving your game until you are about 50 Km away from port/harbor areas.

[KeptinCranky]

wanted to see that flower?

look here

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=700019&postcount=4082

[Oldgamer48]

Nice pictures, Cranky!

I've had an encounter in the North Sea in which I had to make the decision to attack an escorted freighter in 83 meter water, or lay low and continue on to my patrol grid. I chose the latter.

In my last career (GWX2), I put an eel into a 5500-ton merchie in 15mps winds. Almost immediately, my soundman told me that a warship was closing at long range and high speed. I took the U-52 down to 160 meters, went silent, and turned north.

By the time the fellow got to my last known location and launched a dc attack, I was at a comfortable distance. He made two other dc attacks ... haven't got the foggiest notion what he was attacking ... and by this time, I had turned to the NE, still at silent running. I soon understood that the DD was hanging around my last position, listening, then making high speed runs. Eventually, I increased speed and continued to the NE.

About an hour later, I heard the merchie go down!

Ducimus, I want you to know that what you said in the OP is spot on, and I've made good use of it, in my "careers". It really helps to make sense of what is happening, at any given moment in combat.

And I never go above 100 rpms, when trying to be quiet!

[rik007]

Nice pictures, Cranky!

I've had an encounter in the North Sea in which I had to make the decision to attack an escorted freighter in 83 meter water, or lay low and continue on to my patrol grid. I chose the latter.

In my last career (GWX2), I put an eel into a 5500-ton merchie in 15mps winds. Almost immediately, my soundman told me that a warship was closing at long range and high speed. I took the U-52 down to 160 meters, went silent, and turned north.

By the time the fellow got to my last known location and launched a dc attack, I was at a comfortable distance. He made two other dc attacks ... haven't got the foggiest notion what he was attacking ... and by this time, I had turned to the NE, still at silent running. I soon understood that the DD was hanging around my last position, listening, then making high speed runs. Eventually, I increased speed and continued to the NE.

About an hour later, I heard the merchie go down!

Ducimus, I want you to know that what you said in the OP is spot on, and I've made good use of it, in my "careers". It really helps to make sense of what is happening, at any given moment in combat.

And I never go above 100 rpms, when trying to be quiet!

These kind of experiences make SH3+GWX such a great game. You will remember these adventures for a long time.

[Oldgamer48]

@rik007
These kind of experiences make SH3+GWX such a great game. You will remember these adventures for a long time.

Exactly! The developers of GWX and SH3 both wanted to create an immersive experience with a game that was only marginally so (in the stock form), and they succeeded marvelously. Ubisoft ought to donate to them, given the number of units they've sold just for the mods ...

[Jimbuna]

@rik007
These kind of experiences make SH3+GWX such a great game. You will remember these adventures for a long time.

Exactly! The developers of GWX and SH3 both wanted to create an immersive experience with a game that was only marginally so (in the stock form), and they succeeded marvelously. Ubisoft ought to donate to them, given the number of units they've sold just for the mods ...

Agreed :up:

;)

[kiwikapitan]

Somebody mentioned earlier in this thread that DCs did not have the power to shake a u-boat's hull. Well I think this disproves that. A nerve-wracking excerpt from my fave sub book 'Hirschfeld'.

"The inferno broke loose with such devastating violence it seemed that a volcano had erupted around the boat. I wondered how the pressure hull could possibly withstand it. The main lighting slowly failed. The unbelievable din of fifteen great thunderclaps one after the other shook and rolled the submarine, an endless cascade of almost unendurable sound. Then the reverberations growled away and the emergency lighting flickered on." Pgs 38, 39.

A brilliant book with very descriptive accounts. Also I love the sounds that GWX uses for the DCs. Actually I hate them but that's another story. :D

[Jimbuna]

Somebody mentioned earlier in this thread that DCs did not have the power to shake a u-boat's hull.

Now that quote I would love to see http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/img240/9117/pointingqq8.gif

[kiwikapitan]

[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2]In the movies, because active pinging emits a sound pulse, they end up not only hearing it but actually feeling it strike the hull. Is this realistic or only added to create "atmosphere?"

For what I've read it sounds like someon was throwing pebbles to the hull on the sub side, but it was a sound only, no hitting, also the DC shaking the sub used in the movies is just for eye candy, it's impossible for a DC to shake the sub like an earthquake, if a single DC has the power to do that then the sub will implode

Ref
Actively searching...... found it Jim here it is from Ref nonetheless! :huh:

I guess we're lucky Hirschfeld's Type IX was a super sub cos it didn't implode and it also sunk to 900' which equates to 270 mtrs if I'm not mistaken. Gosh! :o

[Jimbuna]

The boat would not shake like in the film, correct, but the shock wave and the resultant rush of water (especially if the sub was straddled and the explosion was close enough to the hull) would cause the boat to vibrate a little (and in some instances, the snapping/shearing of engine mounting bolts).

Nothing like the flight deck dramatics on Star Trek movies, but vibration nonetheless. http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Gezur(Arbeit)]

Has anyone played the mission "HMS Eagle" ? Everytime I start, I go silent runnign backwards, but the DD starts pinging me every time -.-

Has anyone a suggestion how to infiltrate the convoi without being detected?

[Jimbuna]

All I can suggest is you immediately set silent running and change the direction your bow is pointing so you don't present a side on profile :hmm:

[Gezur(Arbeit)]

I tried, it worked in 1 of 10 times, but i seem to understand, how to act in this specific situation...

Set silent running (as normally when attacking a convoi)
-slow backwards, change direction--> bow pointing to destroyer

still hard ^^

[Jimbuna]

Yeah, I know mate, they were never meant to be easy, more a challenge ;)

[Gezur(Arbeit)]

Well after playing gwx 1,5 months i can say: the AI isnt as Uber, as many say....this realistic and not uber, just know how to trick them :D

[Grayson02sept1980]

Well after playing gwx 1,5 months i can say: the AI isnt as Uber, as many say....this realistic and not uber, just know how to trick them :D

as it is with every AI :smug:

[Faamecanic]

oh yes, seen stuff like that, it's either they don't have any dcs or don't drop them for fear of blowing themselves up as well, which happens sometimes. I've a picture of a Flower Corvette dropping charges on my boat in shallow water, missing and sinking itself.


I would title that picture "Sometimes the pooch screws you" heh heh (its an old Chuck Yeager saying)

[clayton]

Well after playing gwx 1,5 months i can say: the AI isnt as Uber, as many say....this realistic and not uber, just know how to trick them :D

I believe 'uber' is directed towards the early war, enemy escort ai. It's easy to confuse difficulty or challenging ai routines with realism and historical.

Discussing this with KL and others, I understand that GWX is basically a comprise in this regard. Limitations with the game engine, I suppose.

I'm glad to hear your system works for you.

[Brophmeister]

Beautifully written, thanks heaps!:rock:

[jas39]

Nice pictures, Cranky!


And I never go above 100 rpms, when trying to be quiet!

How do you know how many rpms the engine is running at?

[Jimbuna]

In the control room there's a rpm guage upper left of the planesmen http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9026/wolfthumbsuprw5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Catfish]

Hello,
i have been away a long time for real life reasons, but i just installed SH3 again and this new GWX2 mod. Thanks for that excellent work, however i do have a question on that Ueber-AI.

The game date is october 1940, daylight, and there is a convoy so far away i can only see one silhouette of a large freighter. Next i am shelled by an invisible destroyer (?), that is directed at me. I "saw" this with external camera on, i did not even see his smoke from my position. How could he possibly have seen me ? There is no way a 4-stacker or any ship would see a U-boat at that distance (12 km or so) visually, let alone electronically with its poor Radar of 1939 (if it already was fitted with one at that time).

Next i dive, and this 4-stacker goes directly at me (changed speed and course at periscope depth without ever using the Periscope). But regardless what evasive manoeuvre i do, which depth or whatever, this thing goes directly at me. I could as well have stayed at the surface waving a flag.
For evading I did all that was written in the first post of this thread, but this "thing" knows exactly where i am, and at which depth - depth charges exploding at perfect depth and directly at the hull of my boat.
Not alone that, but after sinking to the ground and silent running with stopped engines this ship makes one attack after the other, dropping charges and not even missing for inches.
I do not want to complain, just what did you do with that AI ? I can understand this happening after late 1942 (certainly not that quality of an attack), but i think here at this date and location (Western approaches) this looks completely exaggerated.

edit: i forgot - if a destroyer pings, you will hear it in the boat, whether you are in his detection cone or not - it does not tell you whether he really sees you. So you better don't go to full ahead - at least in reality - or only for two seconds.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Catfish]

Hi,
just to throw in some info from reread book chapters, the trick of the U-boats in the early war was to go in surfaced at night like a "Schnellboot", shoot from less than 400 meters if possible, and just keep up speed and reload. Diving was only done in almost hopeless conditions.
This is why escorts had a hard time, their ASDIC was useless against surfaced targets. Radar did not work under 1000-1500 meters, and not above 8000 meters. As well most escorts simply did not have radar until 1942. There is certainly propaganda still active today.
And there are numerous witness reports of U-boat crews that escort ships were passed at less than 300 meters, and they did not even see the U-boat. Even when they did see it and both had different courses they would pass each other so quickly that the U-boat did not need to dive, because the escort would lose the sub anyway in the next seconds - but try this in GWX and you'll be dead already in 1939 ;)

Greetings,
Catfish

[Catfish]

Hello,
an additional info, a U-boat or submarine can not be detected by surface ASDIC or Sonar when it is at periscope depth - the surface noise makes it vanish from the screen in anything else than perfectly flat calm seas, and even a very flat-adjusted detection cone will not really detect it.
Mr Topp said he almost never dived to more than 30 meters for that reason.
The real U-boat skippers considered this sim much too hard, and this was the vanilla version ... i begin to understand why my performance sucks lol.
Anyway it is fun, but real life tactics do not work here :lol:
Greetings,
Catfish

[Kpt. Lehmann]

There is certainly propaganda still active today.


Well, it was quite nice of you to imply that we are have not accounted for false 'propaganda.' :shifty: I really hope that I am reading you wrong.

What you are stating is your opinion concerning the modification of the AI sensors in GWX based on information as you interpret it. Naturally, you are entitled to it.

However, I think it is more likely that you are simply doing something wrong that readily leaves your U-boat wide open to detection.

Dead men cannot speak, and the living can only speculate. Furthermore, real life sensors were subject to a host of environmental factors that are not modelled in SH3.

Modifications to GWX AI sensors were made with the intent to produce historically plausible situations and outcomes, to the best of our abilities... within an entire series of game and code limitations.

What you must understand, is that the AI itself cannot be altered as it is hard coded... SH3 modders can only alter the AI's perceptions of its environment. The ASW modding knowledge pool for SH3 was built over months of difficult trial and error, and will remain an imperfect beast.

The AI should punish dumb mistakes... In stock SH3 escorts/DD's/AI response is boneheaded and thick beyond belief IMHO... allowing total distruction of convoys and taskforces with virtually no risk to the player.

For those claiming that GWX AI response is overly harsh... Horse-muffins! It is most certainly surviveable assuming you are willing to give up bad habits... like watching torpedo detonations... target fixation... or slugging it out with aircraft... surface attacks in broad daylight... forgetting to engage silent running... etc.

If you read "The U-boat Commander's Handbook" you will find that you can absolutely survive to the end of the war. (If you don't mind running an unrealistic 54 patrols!)

Having observed countless debates and whinges claiming that the AI in GWX was either too weak or too strong... honestly leaves me with the feeling that we've executed a competent modification of sensor settings.

It would serve you well to read beyond just the first post of this thread, and to again review appendix "C" in the GWX manual.

Other members have already demonstrated that such things as surface attacks in GWX are quite possible (although difficult.) If you cannot adjust to the effectiveness of sensors in 1939... you haven't got a prayer in later years.

I also suggest that you read this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=134930

Speaking for GWX, if you aren't happy with the AI response... feel free to find a mod that is good for you. You are entitled to your opinion... and your interpretation of how data might be interpreted into game code. The enemy AI in GWX though, is what it is.

[wiggywaawaa]

Thanks for that i learnt a hell of alot. am downloading GWX at the moment. Am pretty new to being online and playing online.thanks again.:D

[Sailor Steve]

Well, WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny: You're not only playing the greatest subsim around, you've found the friendliest forum as well.

[Jimbuna]

Thanks for that i learnt a hell of alot. am downloading GWX at the moment. Am pretty new to being online and playing online.thanks again.:D

Welcome aboard wiggywaawaa...I'm sure you'll enjoy the GWXperience http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Catfish]

Hello Kpt. Lehmann,
thanks for your answers. I just realized i did not tell at all how much fun this GWX is !
I just felt somehow inclined to write about my experience with GWX in the 1939 to 40 years. It occurred to me that a visual sighting at the described distance 8+ miles with the following quality of an attack was not possible in reality - at that time an american lend-lease four-stacker would have been virtually blind (and i presented a low profile, running silent at PD with less than 100 rpms when he was still 7 miles away). Remember he already shelled me at 10 or more miles distance, when i did not see him at all.
A direct question: What kind of detectors does a four stacker have in GWX in mid-1940 ? A hint referring to the respective file is enough.
Concerning the link you gave - i also answered in this thread what the original poster might have done wrong to be detected - only to show here i am not completely inexperienced ;) .

There is no doubt that the GWX "mod", or better total conversion made a very good sim out of the vanilla version. But it seems - as you wrote - that some basic programming cannot be altered. Well, but i did not experience this behaviour in the vanilla version, so this must have changed due to GWX, hence my comments.
I believe you that this is survivable, however the tactics you need here are harder than in reality, at least in the early war - this is from comments as well as from the books i read. I have no problem with that, just learn other tactics, it is a sim after all.

The propaganda thing. There are some recently published books and TV media suggesting the "Allies" (not even distinguishing between US and British actions) knew and used all the technology, like convoys, and reacting to an attack, right from the beginning of the war, and that Radar and Sonar was used from day one, on most ships. Maybe this is what german history channel or Mr Knoop is about lol. Would this be true the U-boats would never have had the possibilities and chances they had and used until 1942. Germany lost the war for all kinds of reasons, not only at the technological front.

In my opinion this is said to (try to) explain why the US did not react to the U-boat threat at all in the first war years. They would not even have run convoys had not the British command insisted. As well a lot of British war intelligence was wasted or better not wanted to be heard by the US. Seems someone is in need of an explanation here.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Kpt. Lehmann]

To Catfish and others who whinge and complain regarding the sensors in GWX... I am going to respond with all the kindness and cordiality that I can muster.

"Was GWX's AI altered for the sake of challenge?" The answer is no. I mean no offense, but If your comparison's used the scientific method, and had begun with stock SH3... The improvements that GWX arguably introduces, may present you with a clearer picture of where we are versus where SH3 started. Modifications to GWX AI sensors were made with the intent to produce historically plausible situations and outcomes, to the best of our abilities... within an entire series of game and code limitations. Increased challenge to the player though, was a predictable side effect of modding the enemy AI sensors.

The AI should punish dumb mistakes... In stock SH3 escorts/DD's/AI response is boneheaded and thick beyond belief IMHO... allowing total distruction of convoys and taskforces with virtually no risk to the player.

A proper gradient reflecting the progression of technology, resulting in an accelerating curve of U-boat losses is modelled in GWX.

Is it perfect? Of course not. I don't think any mod's ASW arrangement or sensors modification is perfect... nor do I feel that we have anything to be ashamed of. It does the job quite nicely IMHO. On full realism, it certainly cuts down on 500,000 ton single patrols by players... The GWX dev team made a concerted effort to interlock the ASW assets, damage models, contact reports, campaign files, and weapon damage balancing in an effort cut down on rediculous tonnage hauls.

Reputable sources were used and relied upon. (Clay Blair, U-boat Commander's Handbook circa 1943... and a whole HOST of sources listed in the GWX manual) GWX dev teamers were not the victims of fictional 'propaganda' nor were they historical revisionists.

Ease of success breeds bad habits and false expectations.

Players have had it easy and have not been forced to think as submarine captains.

Your greatest weapons are not your torpedoes... and certainly not your deck gun.

Your greatest weapons are stealth and patience.

Typically what I see in those who complain is a sense that they can do no wrong. "I've been playing sub simulations for years and this isn't right because blah blah blah..."

It is easy to blame the mod instead of admitting complacency and the desire for instant gratification.

The people who built GWX, whatever their individual faults may be, are among the best that subsim has to offer.

Nothing under the sun that we do, or choose not to do, is going to make everyone happy. Tailoring the AI perception (or any element of GWX) to each individual's personal preference or interpretation is quite naturally impossible. I hope you will also understand that we don't really have any intention of helping users UNDO what we worked so hard to build... based on atypical experiences colored by individual wishes.

Months were spent tuning the ASW sensors in GWX... and months of code crunching, spent isolating sensors, determining their limits and "signal strength" at various ranges, and and interpretation (often leading to dead ends... you can't just plug in real life data and expect life-like results in SH3) preceeded the gradual changes and testing. From the original GW to GWX it continued to evolve. I'd rather have all my teeth pulled out with rusty pliers and no anesthetic, than to revisit it again!

One thing that we cannot change, is the experience base of the player... as your experience is not reduced with your simulated "death." There is no way to properly simulate U-boat warfare in any game... we can only approximate it. The player will always learn from a simulated death.

It is a good thing for us that when you die in SH3... you live to count rivets another day. You do not drown, or have to abandon ship, or be taken prisoner... You get to fight another day and carry the experience... and the desire to become a better U-boat captain.

In the end... the downloads do the talking. GWX 2.0 ALONE has been downloaded more than 10,000 times. Those are simply the ones that can be counted. I suspect a further 20,000 from other locations such as GameShadow, Atomic Gamer etc. If the AI (or any element) in GWX was so terrible, complaints about it would be incessant. I am not saying this to be bombastic or arrogant. I am saying it to drive home the points being made.

Seriously folks... if GWX causes you such distress, you have choices. Use them.

If anyone has put a gun to your head and forced you to use (and keep using) GWX... please raise your hand.:lol:

Stop complaining and get to patrolling.:arrgh!:

[Oldgamer48]

@Cpt. Lehmann

I don't see anything to argue with you about. I've only been sunk once, since I started playing 2.1, and that was when I made a truly stupid mistake. I made an almost perfect submerged attack on a freighter. I checked with my soundman to see if he had a contact, which he didn't. I even went into his station and listened, for myself.

Feeling confident and secure, and not wanting to waste another torpedo on the freighter, I surfaced to finish it off with the deck gun. When I broke the surface, the damned thing started firing guns at me! Instead of doing the sensible thing and going back down, I decided, "It's just a freighter. I can take him!"

By the time I realized what a terrible mistake I'd made, the U-36 was going down, and for the last time. Before I reached crush depth, I got the message, "She's going down!"

If I were a real Kaleun, I'm sure that my crew would be truly irritated with my caution. I'm careful ... after the pitiful spectacle I made above ... because a U-Boat is a fragile thing. Because of this, casualties are low, damage is minimal, and I'm going up in BDU's estimation.

If you do stupid things in war, you get killed. If you're an officer, you get other people killed, too.

By the way, I've quite a collection of books about the Atlantic War, and listening to actual accounts of actions at sea by real U-Boat captains has convinced me that the conversion is very close to the real thing ... as close as you're going to get in an arguably flawed simulation.

[Nyarlathotep]

First let me say that I have no problem with GWX "uber" AI. It's unfortunate that this thread devolved into the GWX team defending their work; an enormous effort that is available to us *FOR FREE*. GWX does so much more than tweak the sensors, I can't imagine how anyone could complain. The first time I launched a patrol in GWX, the harbor environment alone made me think "this is what stock SH3 should have been" and wonder why the GWX team wasn't hired to work on, or at least consult for SH4?

Moving on.. I've made successful convoy attacks and evaded escorts in GWX. I'm playing at %100 realism, malfunctions, sabotage, random crush depth, etc. I've done pretty well so far, but I'm only in late 1940. I know it's going to get harder, and maybe I'll get my butt kicked. In fact I'm certain of it.

But here's the thing; it's a video game simulation. Regardless of the "why" or game mechanics, I try to immerse myself in the experience and simply assume real-life tactics will translate into success, rather than nitpick. No offense, but I find this far more enjoyable than parsing through the config files trying to determine maximum range or depth or whatever.. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that other people have been willing to do so in order to vastly improve on the stock game. But I'm just enjoying their work, and when I do get sunk, I'd rather assume it's my fault and refine my tactics than blame someone else. It's working for me so far. :D

Here are some ideas that might help if you're struggling in GWX:

- The SH3 manual says the depth charge explosions create a temporary blind spot. From what I've read here, that's not exactly the case. There is a large blind spot in the baffles of the attacker, however, which in some cases is almost the same thing. I've had some luck "chasing" DD's in this blind spot.

- When they start to circle, I turn hard in the same direction, then kill the engine and turn hard the other way. The idea being that when they come around again, I will be heading away from them, hopefully having put some distance between us, and presenting the narrowest possible sonar signature. Plus, if there are multiple attackers, they seem to lose me when I make that second turn while drifting, often times attacking where I would be had I not changed direction.

- It seems like creating a "knuckle" or disturbance in the water with hard rudder commands and high speeds can create a decoy-like effect. Also, you can order "knuckle left or right" manuevers in the GUI. I don't know if the game is modeling this or not. Honestly, I'm not sure I want to know. For whatever reason, it seems to work. It very well could be that it's just the "pump fake" double-move thing confusing them. Who cares? :)

- If you've got electric torps, or you're not worried about your target spotting the wake, use the slow speed settings. If you're in close range, or just confident in your target solution (or using auto-targeting, boooo) the extra time between launch and impact will give you time to escape.. or set up on another target.

- More on the "baffles" or blind spot; I've used merchant ships as "cover" during convoy attacks, putting my sub under them and slightly behind at shallow depth. This seems to work, but maybe I'm just getting lucky. Again, I'm not too concerned with the "why" so long as it keeps working. It could just be collision avoidance. Anything I can use to my advantage..

So.. I'd suggest trying some of these, then maybe developing your own tactics, and then posting them here possibly? Rather than complaining about the AI in the incredibly cool expansion pack you just downloaded for free. ;)

[Speedy]

Hi guys, I am, just coming back to sh3 after a couple of years away from it and playing GWX2.1 I have to say you guys have done a great job. What originally put me off sh3 was how ridiculously easy it was with 60-70,000+ grt patrols being the norm.

Now I just have a question regarding radar. I just ran the Gibraltar straight in Jan 43 running on the surface in bad weather (overcast, heavy rain, poor vis, 15m/s) and although I detected numerous radar signals I was not intercepted. I just wanted to know if bad weather effects the performance of allied radar in the modded game?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I just wanted to know if bad weather effects the performance of allied radar in the modded game?

Bad weather in GWX does affect detection probability by enemy radar, but not drastically. For the allied sailor in WWII, a primary attraction of radar was to have a set of eyes that could see through the storm and/or darkness. That being said, surface radar was rather short ranged in real life. On a clear day, you could usually see farther than its actual effective detection range, even late in the war as technology progressed. Conversely, within that limited range it can be far more dependable than the Mark-1 eyeballs of the lookouts... narrowing the search pattern of watch crewmen.

Sounds to me as if you had a bit of luck with you and managed to thread the needle. Good show! :up:

[downunder]

One of the best most informative threads Iv'e read. Thankyou now im off to try it out.

Cheers

[Warner Von Shultz]

Ok, it's late where I'm at; but let me take a stab at this and see what I can pull up. Sorry if this reply is mismanaged, I'm half asleep right now....




I think that when people play this simulation using the stock version of this game it affords you with the ability to do things and get habits in place that are not historically accurate to what a “real” U-Boat commander would do. For example I have seen many a video on youtube where a U-Boat slugs it out with a destroyer or two to show they can when a surface engagement. I have also seen in GWX mods of SH3 in video where people slug it out with escorts.


I have found with any simulation there are two ways to play them. First is the way of learning the way the AI plays and then take advantage of its weaknesses and exploit them to get high scores etc; but then there is the “realistic” way of playing the games thinking with the mindset of a real U-Boat commander with a real live crew. If you think that the AI in the GWX mod is too powerful, then you are probably making too many unrealistic risk that a commander might think twice before doing in real life. For example, if you are going to surface and slug it out with anyone in a gun dual you are probably stretching the limits of reality verses the real commanders of these boats during WWII. I sure the commanders and boats that survived the war were the ones that had captains that were well aware of what their boat could realistically do and not do and were aggressive to a fault when they knew they had the advantage; but were cautious enough to make the decision to dive to safety and away from danger if they saw that making an attack on X target would probably result in the the U-boats sinking. I don't know about many here; but when I see a target that has multiple strong escort destroyers and I am in less than 15 meters of water I think twice before I attack that ship because I know I am going to have one hell of a time trying to escape in shallow water. Yes I could simply risk the attack and if I die reload the gamesave; but when you do that what is the point of playing any game? It destroys the “realistic” point of the game when you do that.


I have found with this simulation that if you act like you truly only have one life in one career then the decisions you make will keep you alive for much longer. The AI in the GWX mod when playing realistically is strong, given the limitations of the game; but not so strong that escort seems to have Uber AI. I have found myself many of times thinking that I could evade an escort only to get major damage in GWX. And other times I have been surprised at how multiple escorts seem to just be content to let me slip away. There are many factors you cannot model in real life that would be impossible to do in this game. The ones the GWX had control over make me convinced they made AI changes that lead to more realistic game play. I'm sure that a convoy with many escorts was a tough nut to crack in real life, now – in the GWX mod – when you can crack that nut it all much more enjoyable as those beast sink below the waves by the fury of your eels.

[KeptinCranky]

:roll:....<reading wall of text above>... :D ........:up:

speaking as someone who normally can't resist at leats looking for the gamey exploits, and having no qualms about using them when required, you are quite correct. playing as if you've everything to lose does make it far more realistic :D

only shame about it is that you'll probably never even see a Battleship, let alone sink it, but them's the breaks

[Warner Von Shultz]

only shame about it is that you'll probably never even see a Battleship, let alone sink it, but them's the breaks

I've ran across two Heavy Cruisers and managed to give on a really bad tummy ache once. But once he was hit has tentacles (escort) and the mob of gnats (aircraft) that followed me while I was shadowing, and a bad streak of weather, caused me to lose him.

But there's nothing quiet like the experience of any simulation as their is with a subsim. Not many other simulated war sims can you trail your enemy like a blood hound for days in real life waiting for your opportunity to attack.

Great thread. I don't want to break the integrety of the Thread's Topic so I'll end by saying. Great mod! Hard AI! :|\\

[Hitman]

I had some doubts about the GWX AI sensors in past version of the mod, but currently in the final 2.1 status I must say that it is fine-tuned to near perfection. Visual sensors in surface work as expected and I have yet to see a situation when I get detected and I was sure I wouldn't have been in real life.

Besides, OLC's environment makes the good even better, as it gives you dark nights but you catually can see enough to attack. :up: A step further and I couldn't play anymore withoput it :nope:

[prince_vlad]

I read carefully your lecture about AI detecting "powers".Well...let me tell you something I learned so far noticing things when hunting a convoy...if you indulge me:)

The approach from behind the convoy won't work.Sooner or later they will come for you.If they are too many maybe you can bring down one destroyer if you are lucky and all you can get is losing time and torpedoes if you don't asses the situation correctly.But if only one ship or two are coming for you you could have one shot to bring them down , especially if they noticed you late and you had time to get out of their way.
The best way is to be in front of the convoy, to wait still and to position yourself in 90 degrees with their way.You can fire ,depends of the sub missiles ahead an backwards without them noticing you.But if you catch up with convoy from behind try to switch places and go right or left and set ypurself ahead the convoy.You just have to pay attention going behind the last destroyer in line and then lose the convoy for a while , meanwhile checking position to it from 10 to 10 minutes.That's my methods and they work 99%.

[Leandros]

OkI have found with this simulation that if you act like you truly only have one life in one career then the decisions you make will keep you alive for much longer. The AI in the GWX mod when playing realistically is strong, given the limitations of the game; but not so strong that escort seems to have Uber AI. I have found myself many of times thinking that I could evade an escort only to get major damage in GWX. And other times I have been surprised at how multiple escorts seem to just be content to let me slip away. There are many factors you cannot model in real life that would be impossible to do in this game. The ones the GWX had control over make me convinced they made AI changes that lead to more realistic game play. I'm sure that a convoy with many escorts was a tough nut to crack in real life, now – in the GWX mod – when you can crack that nut it all much more enjoyable as those beast sink below the waves by the fury of your eels.
Relatively early in the war (late Fall '39, I believe) Dönitz issued instructions not to use deck guns - not even against merchants. Also to avoid contact with enemy naval vessels at all if not for self-defense. I suppose this was based on hard-earned experience but also the fact that PRI 1 was destruction of enemy commerce. Same went for the Luftwaffe on anti-ship missions.

One thing I did not see mentioned in the initial posting is that asdic, according to real sources I have seen, was less effective when the sub was at periscope depth. WoV, at a certain distance, you should not be liable to discovery even when right in front of the vessel using the asdic. How is this for SHIII? It needs to be said that I only have the GWX 2.0.

If I have any complaints it would be that destroyer lookouts are very efective as compared with those on the small-silhoutted U-boote and that the RN artillery is a little too well trained and effective (before radar period)....:hmm:

I enjoy the game immensely, to the extent that i am now trying to adapt it for simulations on Unternehmen Seelöwe (you know, the invasion that never was). Gettysburg has been shelved for a long time now.

Finally, I would like to offer a "solution" on attacking destroyers. The use of the rear tube(s) against destroyers which have just ran you over and making a turn afterwards seems to be well known. The best results with this is if you are heading towards the destroyer when he is making the attack run. Problem is, you quickly run out of rear torpedoes. A variant: You are in a tight turn when the attacker is passing close behind you - after that he usually starts a turn to come back. Instead of you continuing your turn - right away turn the other way (periscope up), at the same time cutting speed to get him outside torpedo arming distance. As he is offering his broadside to you give him a T1, always on highest speed. In non-dud mode magnetic always works, otherwise use impact on shallow setting. Doesn't matter if he sees the wake at this close distance and max. torpedo speed. Just give them a thrill......:oops:.... works less well against slower vessels as you do not get them outside the proper distance.

Keep ut the good work!


Edited!!!!!!

It seems I have to reconsider my above posting on tactics. Just this afternoon I experienced a reversal when a V&W outsmarted me. WoW, it is not that foolproof. The bastard counter-turned right away as my fish was in the water, straight for his broadside, avoiding it with a good margin. Happened on two occasions right after ea. other, one from the rear and one from the bow tube. And in a scenario I had set up by myself!!!

[KeptinCranky]

Evasion at periscope depth or slightly deeper, say 17 meters seems to work fairly well in rough weather where surface interference messes with the asdic and hydrophones on the escorts.

It isn't foolproof (hardly anything is, except going to 300 meters or slightly below and staying there until they give up)
but it works often enough to be worth a try in a tough spot

[Warner Von Shultz]

Using the rear torpedo tube tactic I would guess would be a little more difficult in real life without a PC to be able to check off "Weapon Assistance" . :) I would guess any captain able to do such calculations in the first place would venture to torpedo the ship before he got close enough to hit you in the first place. lol

Good tactic for SH3 though.

Laters

[Admiral_Stealth]

You are right. To survive 1943 to 1945 is a vast challenge. For what its worth I did and this is how. Dont please reduce the GWX2 challenge.

I always avoided as much as possible the areas of the map with air cover.
I kept my sub up to date with all technology, especially radar, torps and sound detection.
I never used pinging, just got to recognise the sounds.
My finger was always poised over the c button when travelling on surface in deep water only.
Whenever on the edges of aircovered water, and the radar detector indicated a beam I crash dived and moved at 2knts for at least an hour, to give air cover time to continue.
I attacked convoys only from diagonal front, with convoy torpedoes at 2,5km to 4k range. OFTEN THE CONVOY ESCAPED due to a change of direction or an escort being unexpectedly close.
I sparingly used a sound homing torpedo if necessary on the nearest destroyer if I judged he became a threat, ie was closing to within 2,5km thereby hoping the destroyers` source of my direction and location was lost. If I had a choice I took the destroyer equipped with hedgehogs. They were generally the best.
Oh yes always use silent running and stay deep, but my nerves couldnt take more than 140mtres as the boat was only just able to recover.
All the rest was said, be proactive at escaping, dont wait till detected, and keep your profile slim.
I use a 1941 1Xc which give me the exra number of torps.
Train your crew to give maximum speed of recovery for all requirements, including especially the officers.
Distribute the medals to those who serve you best.
Finally if your nerves cant take it any more, apply for a transfer to the far east where its easier to survive!

[Admiral_Stealth]

You are right. To survive 1943 to 1945 is a vast challenge. For what its worth I did and this is how. Dont please reduce the GWX2 challenge.

I always avoided as much as possible the areas of the map with air cover.
I kept my sub up to date with all technology, especially radar, torps and sound detection.
I never used pinging, just got to recognise the sounds.
My finger was always poised over the c button when travelling on surface in deep water only.
Whenever on the edges of aircovered water, and the radar detector indicated a beam I crash dived and moved at 2knts for at least an hour, to give air cover time to continue.
I attacked convoys only from diagonal front, with convoy torpedoes at 2,5km to 4k range. OFTEN THE CONVOY ESCAPED due to a change of direction or an escort being unexpectedly close.
I sparingly used a sound homing torpedo if necessary on the nearest destroyer if I judged he became a threat, ie was closing to within 2,5km thereby hoping the destroyers` source of my direction and location was lost. If I had a choice I took the destroyer equipped with hedgehogs. They were generally the best.
Oh yes always use silent running and stay deep, but my nerves couldnt take more than 140mtres as the boat was only just able to recover.
All the rest was said, be proactive at escaping, dont wait till detected, and keep your profile slim.
I use a 1941 1Xc which give me the exra number of torps.
Train your crew to give maximum speed of recovery for all requirements, including especially the officers.
Distribute the medals to those who serve you best.
Finally if your nerves cant take it any more, apply for a transfer to the far east where its easier to survive!

[Admiral_Stealth]

You guys have achieved a brilliant masterpiece by developing this simulation. I know how very difficult it is to carry out projects well, you guys are incredible.
I am sure the whole WW2 community are in agreement. Its the one and only, and its a fascinating and very enjoyable addictive challenge.

THANK YOU

S!:rock:

[Admiral_Stealth]

It was a 1942 1Xc not a 1941...sorry......from 2nd Flotilla out of Lorient.

[She-Wolf]

just want to add my thanks for this really useful post - really helpful and informative:up:

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard Admiral_Stealth http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/welcome.gif

[gigel_escu]

I played the stock SH3 until late 1944, two times, for reasons who not depends from myself I cann't continue until the end of the war. Recentelly I play GWX and is very interesting, graphical I said. I am in April 1940 and I evade from escorts very easy. I want to see how I can manage with the situation on late 42 and later on, I think I don't meet the full power of AI units.

I don't think the AI is very strong, I speak at 1940 level, I can sunk a frigate with my deckgun from 2500-3000 meters, but that is very strange I cann't sunk an Elco Torpedo boat, I hited 4 times with my 88 mm cannon, from the first hit she burned out but not sinking, the machine gun from the bord damage my u-boat. Generally speaking I tried to sink patrol vessels with my deckgun. It is possible but depends the type of vessels and luck. But the U-boat is not an artillery boat, from 1941 anward the merchant vessels are armed with guns and they are very hard to sink too. An U-boat commander don't wave his hand at 3 destroyer, like me:p , and in hard circustances like weather, mechanical failure or warship sound in sonar, they retreat or dive imediatly. Don't try to engage enemy units if you are low on battery, don't expose your boat at damage. Repeat damaging make your subs depth limit to reduce and if you are damage and take a depth charge very close, the flooding can be fatal.

[Climbingdad]

Way late to the game, but this post has been incredibly informative!

Thanks to everyone at GWX for an incredible mod, and to everyone that helps out in general!

[ReallyDedPoet]

Better late than never :yep:

Welcome to SUBSIM :sunny:

[Jimbuna]

Way late to the game, but this post has been incredibly informative!

Thanks to everyone at GWX for an incredible mod, and to everyone that helps out in general!

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9628/rlw.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/rlw.gif/)