GWX & NYGM sub physics combined, some intresting results [Archive]

Ducimus

01-22-07, 02:41 PM

I don't know why, i just decided to combine the two to see what would happen. Ive talked abut it in the past, but was never intrested enough to try.

Well, now i did.

All i can say is..... wow.

First you have to understand how both sub models work.

GWX's sub model is primiarly changes in a sub's sim file that adds mass, and probably a couple other itemized changes that i didnt look close eough at the file to notice. The result is primarly more realistic surface performance, with a SLIGHT postive rise submerged. Essentually however, set your depth 2 meters lower then what you'd want, and it behaves just like stock.

NYGM's sub model works.. relatively the exact opposite. From my understanding what they did was to Neuter the type XXI by canabalizing the pumps from it. Then rezone the subs to include the type XXI's pumps, then set the pumps to as near as i can tell, slowly change the subs boyancy in a negative way to give a slight negative down draw. The result is that over time your boat slowly sinks deeper.

HOw the two work, i expected them to counteract each other.

Quite the oppsite, they seem to compliment each other, the trouble is im not sure if the result is desired play. I feel that it will infact make the game harder in some respects. I can say for certain that with both combined, you cannot bottom a boat. (not that bottoming helps anyway :roll:)

The result is this:
Boats have a positive boyancy, and if you stop the engines you'll float right up to the surface over time. Say for example under just the NYGM model , i stop at 15 meters with 100 meters under the keel. Of the course of what im guessing is around 20 mins (maybe longer, i didnt measure the time), your boat will eventually bottom.

WIth the GWX and NYGM models combined, i can stop the boat at 100 meters of water, over the same time period (20 mins or longer), i will slowly rise to the surface if i sit at a dead stop with the motors off.

In either instance by restarting the motors, your sub will trim out at your last specified depth.

If you want to see this for yourself, ive uploaded a test module, the test boat is an IXC, so select that one in a single mission.

Files included:
- NYGM's zon file for the 9c
- GWX's zones.cfg with the pumpsXXI entry from NYGM
- A stock 9c sim file in the documentaton directory if you want to test the NYGM by itself as standalone. Just drop it in the same directory in this mod as the zon file.

D/L:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/release/SUB_Physics_TEST.7z

I think this is pretty damn cool.

geralt

01-22-07, 03:03 PM

Tikigod

01-22-07, 03:15 PM

Ducimus

01-22-07, 03:17 PM

VERY interesting

are you able to sit on the bottom in pure GWX?
I've done it by ordering all men to fore compartments and giving the order to dive to adjust the dive planes to diving position when sitting down there...
is this impossible with NYGM+GW?

I like the new GWX physics and the NYGM idea that stopped sub should sink slowly.

But to be honest I couldn't live without bottoming.

Well in GWX, in reality you'd be sitting about 2 meters off the bottom and just hover there, but its still bottoming.

In NYGM by itself you can litterally bottom the boat, Flat on the bottom, with no water under the keel.

Both mods have the right idea, but neither one by itself is the complete deal in terms of sub physics in my opinion.. At least to my understanding, a submarine is trimmed for either Negative boyancy or positive boyance, with neutral possible but is realtiively hard to obtain.

Submarines in general go in two directions if out of batteries. Up or down. They need forward propulsion to maintain depth no matter what. As a saftey precaution, they tended to trim for a slight positive rise, with the forward motion over the hydroplanes keeping the boat at a depth. Think of hydroplanes being the underwater equivlant of wings on an airplane. A airplane just can't hover there, it needs forward motion to get an airflow (or in a subs case waterflow) over its wings to maintain its lift (or in subs case, depth).

Now personally i think both combined give the most realistic submarine model in the game based on what ive seen so far. Theres only one major problem, and thats we can't flood, or blow a negative dive tank. If we had a negative tank to flood, you could bottom the boat with both models combined. The other problem being that GWX fixed some items in the zon files. Which ones or how many i don't know, but an exampble being the "sonar destroyed" message in an IXD2.

Pesonnaly im willing to live with that for the sake of better physics. (its not like we havent lived with this bug for the last couple years anyway). Of course one could always hope that NYGM and GWX teams got together and discussed this one out and ironed the minor details for the sake of a better submodel, everyone would bennfit i think. I also think this makes the game a bit HARDER, and thats not something everyone would want.

Myxale

01-22-07, 03:24 PM

:o

Holy crap isn't working here! As soon as i can i'll test this mod of yours. Sweet hell!

Myxale

01-22-07, 04:02 PM

Did the testing, and indeed the rising starts after you stopped you engines for a time!
And from what i saw the Boot still has this nice surface dynamic.

I just don't know ho deep that matter goes! Or what it breaks!

But it's just like ducimus says: The only question is if this is the player "desired" kind of play.
Since a sub is trimmed for pos. or neg. and we cannot have both here!

Here's a colaboration of master modder in order!

geralt

01-22-07, 04:21 PM

Is this a joke? or can you really do this? its hard to tell since so many people joke/chat on forums.

I've done it by ordering all men to fore compartments and giving the order to dive to adjust the dive planes to diving position when sitting down there...
is this impossible with NYGM+GW?
I've got no reason to cheat...
don't want to hijack this thread hope Ducimus won't mind few pics

game setup: SH3 1.4 + GWX + some minor mods mostly gui changes, some parts from Flavor to taste V5 etc.
naval academy artillery mission, shallow waters, sub VIIB
17:33 approaching the bottom
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6668/1733aproachingthebottom9eu.jpg

all men on the bow
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6017/fullbowcompartments2bm.jpg

17:35 sitting down
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6965/1735sittingdown2fp.jpg

18:35 still here it's getting dark
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2088/18351hourlaterstillther5jm.jpg

03:12 CO2 level rises
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6581/0312co2levelrises5bu.jpg

06:18 still bottoming
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1667/0618stillsitting6qw.jpg

13:23 after 20hours the CO2 level near red zone but still here
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9630/1323after20hoursco2leve3fb.jpg

note the depth in low right corner is always 111m
also note the 'dive' position of hydropalnes on some pic (e.g. the last)

sorry for poor quality pics but I wanted to keep them as small as possible

so now I have to try this with the GWX+NYGM merged physics

Ducimus

01-22-07, 04:52 PM

The boat is going to sit on the bottom regardless if you use GWX, "OR" NYGM's model. It may not sit perfectly on the bottom (or it may), that it's not like sitting with the hull in contact to the seafloor is cruicial. What's more, bottoming the boat DOES NOTHING as far as the AI is concerned in terms of evasion.

What id be intrested in is if moving all the crew to the forward compartments stops the positive rise with under both models combined like you suggest it does under GWX's model by itself. The thing is, in GWX, the positive rise is ONLY about 2 meters and it stops rising regardless of what you do with the crew. Im also highly skeptical that moving the crew around effects the trim of a boat in SH3. Theres nothing to suggest that the game's physics is modeled by ubi to that high of a degree.

Hartmann

01-22-07, 04:59 PM

Interesting :hmm:

Sadly ,SH3 don´t have any trim tank or a option to obtain positive, negative or neutral buoiancy.
in AOD there is a bilge gauge with the water level, and in silent running the pumps are stopped.

With NYGM the XXI is broken ??...if the other boats use his pumps...:doh:

geralt

01-22-07, 05:05 PM

Ducimus

01-22-07, 05:11 PM

You maybe on to something with silent running. As i understand the XXIPump revamp was to give the boat a slight negative boyancy by introducing a slow trickle of flooding, thereby giving the boat a negative downdraft.

What i dont understand is how its working the exact opposite with GWX's model thrown in. What im saying is, if you have a theoritical flood, switch to silent running and the pumps stop. Eventually the slow trickle should give you a negative downdraft.

As for the type XXI itself, i personlly could care less as i detest that boat. But i know its some peoples favorite. Now If anyones experimenting with this test modlet, try silent running and see what happends.

panthercules

01-22-07, 07:05 PM

Hmmm - seeing this post and the GWX neutral bouyancy thread got me interested in finding out what's really happening with the bouyancy modeling in GWX. So, before playing with this new combo mod or the neutral GWX fix, I just fired up my GWX install (using SH3 to change the water transparency to 20 - hope that didn't break something by accident) and played around with it - got some rather interesting results (all done with sea floor of 104m):

1. Initially, I dove to 100m and went to all stop. My boat slowly rose (over about 20 minutes) to 83m, and then stopped there, staying at that depth for several hours without rising further.

2. I noticed the dive planes were still showing "down", so I hit "A" - the dive planes leveled out, and the boat rose further - taking about 20 minutes to reach 69m and then stopping there for hours without rising any further.

3. I then ordered a depth of 105m by clicking on the depth dial - the boat sank slowly to 87m, then leveled out and stayed there for hours. I then ordered 118m - the boat sank to 98m and stayed there. I then ordered 130m, and the boat sank to 103m and sat about 1m off the sea floor for hours. I then ordered 140m, and the boat finally slowly settled onto the bottom and stayed there for hours - no damage was incurred.

4. I then ordered a depth of 88m - the boat rose to 73m and stayed there for hours.

5. From the surface, at dead stop, I ordered 104m. The boat descended to 87m and then stopped, staying there for hours.

6. All of the above was done with the crew evenly distributed as they would normally be. Just to check, I sent everyone forward and ordered some further descents. The pattern mentioned in 1-3 above repeated itself, without any change (boat stayed on even keel the whole time, just as it had before).

My conclusions? First, the depth-keeping/accuracy deviations of GWX seem to worsen at greater depths, as most people have focused on maybe a 2-3m difference near the surface, but this seems to have widened to somewhere around 20m at around 100m depth. Such depth variations could prove rather troublesome if you're trying to operate underway near the bottom - at least the error seems to be on the high side, which should lead to fewer bottom collisions than if the error were the other way around.

Second - I may have to try out the neutral bouyancy tweak to see if that fixes this behavior - I'd hate to give up some nice surface dynamics, but there's just something fundamentally distracting/disconcerting to me about not being able to rely on my crew to reach and maintain the depth I order.

But, third, I'm gonna have to try these depth-keeping tests while underway, because I never really go to "all stop" unless I'm trying to listen on my hydrophones (which only lasts a few seconds) or unless I'm trying to put the boat on the bottom for repairs, which this set of tests at least shows should be possible with GWX. So, if these depth variations only show up at dead stop, they really don't seem very significant to game play after all.

Kpt. Lehmann

01-22-07, 07:17 PM

Ducimus

01-22-07, 07:23 PM

So, if these depth variations only show up at dead stop, they really don't seem very significant to game play after all.

The difference at a dead stop, at 100 meters, GWX by itself, you'll go up a few meters as youve cited, but then it will stay put. In both sytles (GWX or NYGM), the boat will eventually trim out at specified depth (GWX's being a meter or two shy of it) with a minium of forward movement.

When you combine the two mods, its total positive boyancy, meaning that at a dead stop at 100 meters (or more) You will eventually surface with your decks awash. GWX by itself, you never fully broach at a dead stop unless near periscope depth. Try the test modlet, you'll see what i mean. Personally i think the combination of the two is a diamond in the rough that could use some polishing.

geralt

01-22-07, 07:24 PM

I've found something really schocking for me:
- clear GWX (no mods including *.zon or *.som files enabled)
- Naval Academy Artillery mission (NA missions load faster than single missions so I use them for testing)
- my VIIB is on the surface, speed 0kts, all stopped
- I ordered 'Dive' and the sub went down! holy cow:huh::huh: what's happening? OK I was the bottom (110m)
- I ordered 'Surface' and the sub went up like a air balloon I repeat at ALL STOPPED

whats wrong with my game?? if everything's OK why people said it's impossible to sit down on the bottom?

BIG SORRY for my post describing bottoming for hours :oops::-?...

edit/ I've tried the same things with submarine *.sim *.zon files from the Flavored to taste V5 modpack and got the same results bottoming with no problems.
I was always moving when changing depth so I'm really surprised with this behavior...

In the case of using the new merged prysics in IXC I wasn't able to bottom the sub cos the bow was raising instantly.
I assume that placement of the crew has no influence. Everybody in the bow but still raising.

panthercules

01-22-07, 08:09 PM

@Panthercules,

1.5 - 2.0 knots is required for "proper" depth keeping in GWX.

"All stop" at various depths does indeed produce the behavior you discuss.

Using the "A" (maintain current depth key) "releases" the U-boat from its current set of orders... so the process starts again concerning depth..

Yeah - when I re-ran the test while underway at 2 knots or above, I indeed experienced a consistent 1-2m variation of actual depth to ordered depth (the former always being above the latter) across all sorts of depths from around 15 to around 150m. One odd thing I did note was that if I ordered "ahead slow" (first forward speed setting), I usually got 2 knots speed but sometimes (especially when ordering my boat lower) my speed would drop to 1 knot and my boat would never reach the ordered depth, usually staying about 15-20m above the ordered depth. I would have to manually click for 2 knots (on the secondary speed dial calibrated by knots rather than engine telegraph settings) before I would resume going at 2 knots and heading down to the ordered depth (or at least 1-2m above it anyway).

Concerning its impact on gameplay... it is dependant on the circumstance.

Yeah - I guess I should have said it's impact at dead stop wasn't likely to have much impact on my gameplay, which doesn't involve many situations where I'm at dead stop.

Any way, my personal conclusion from all this testing is that I'll just finish up my patrol with standard GWX without messing with these bouyancy fixes for now, except that I will tweak my periscope depth (and maybe my decks awash) setting to be a couple of meters lower than usual so I won't inadvertantly find myself poking out of the water when I order the boat to p-depth.

Lanzfeld

01-22-07, 08:15 PM

Does combining the mods effect the realistic surface dynamics of GWX?

Ducimus

01-22-07, 08:18 PM

I guess I should have said it's impact at dead stop wasn't likely to have much impact on my gameplay, which doesn't involve many situations where I'm at dead stop.

Ill be the first to admit im a gross abusing of partial neutral boyancy hovering in place along a targets track after making an end around :88) A full positive boyance would effect harbor raiding too.

At any rate im hoping people test this combined mod out and post some feedback. Im going to fiddle with a type7 sometime tonight and see how it behaves.

Kpt. Lehmann

01-22-07, 08:21 PM

Does combining the mods effect the realistic surface dynamics of GWX?

In all likelyhood... yes.

Anything (such as flooding) that changes the "mass" of the player U-boats as implemented in GWX will cause changes in physical behavior on the surface.

Ducimus

01-22-07, 08:24 PM

Does combining the mods effect the realistic surface dynamics of GWX?

Im 99% positive it does not effect the surface dynamics of GWX. Thats the beauty of combinng the two mods, hey use different files. GWX's surface dynamics is in the sim files, the other mod uses the zon file.

EDIT: Lehamnn is allergic to anything from NYGM, and probably hasnt even looked at it.

And what im looking for here is people trying it out, not just assuming it wont work given its source.

EDIT:
Did the testing, and indeed the rising starts after you stopped you engines for a time!
And from what i saw the Boot still has this nice surface dynamic.

Now if anyone else acutally tries it, please post your results. I think this is an idea worth pursuing but it needs feedback.

Lanzfeld

01-22-07, 09:03 PM

:huh: :huh: :huh:

<Runs like hell>

Ducimus

01-22-07, 09:48 PM

:huh: :huh: :huh:

<Runs like hell>

LOL that obvious huh?

CCIP

01-22-07, 09:55 PM

Would like to try out, but most likely can't due to lack of time - but yes, very intriguing.

Ducimus

01-23-07, 02:18 AM

After further testing heres what im finding.

If your at a depth of about 100 meters it takes about 30 mins or so for the boat to come to the surface. MUCH longer if at a deep depth.

Surface tension?

If at "ahead slow" (100 RPMS), an VIIC will not go more then about 10 meters regardless of ordered depth. It needs a little bit more speed (1/3rd) to dive. So you need more forward propulsion obviously. Personnaly i think this is a good behavior.

If at "ahead slow" (100 RPMS), an IXC will go deeper the 10 meters regardless of ordered depth, but it takes it ALOT longer. Presumably because the boat is bigger (displacement) hence will sink a little better then a type 7 with an equal amount of RPM (100 RPMS)

In both cases they dived at normal at 1/3rd.

220 meters seems to be a magic number
Positive boyancy was displayed up to 220 meters. 220 meters in SH3 seems to be some magical number.

In the GWX's model by itself, you could for instance order the boat to surface with the engines off, up to about 220 meters. Once you pass that mark, you need forward propulsion to gain depth. Ordering surface wont help. Emergecy ballast blow does.

In GWX's saddled with NYGM's you get similar behavior excpeting one thing. You apparently gain neutral boyance. For instance i have periscope depth set at 14 meters in the IXC config file. After goign to 220 meters under just GWX mod, periscope depth comes out to be 12 meters (which is why i set the config file to 14). Running both GWX's and NYGM's mod combined down to 220 meters and going to periscope depth afterwords, brings me at 14 meters. Exactly what i specified in the config file.

Surface handling
As per surface handling, i saw no change at all between GWX"s by itself or when it was paired with NYGM's. Checking the top speeds under a 4 kt winds, with and without NYGM's, the top speed and the time it takes to reach that top speed were the same, (timed it with a stopwatch), as was the total range the boat could travel.

Overall im not entirely sure what to think. It works, some of the results sound/feel realistic to me, but that 220 meter mark is throwing my feelings for it off somewhat. however the 220 meter mark effects both mods.

Ducimus

01-23-07, 03:03 AM

Well after more testing, im not sure if one was to call this trimmed down or broken. That funny feeling i got about that 220 mark was apparently well founded.

Here's what i found in regard to this.

If you dive to 220 meters, what happends is the boat gets trimmed down. You in action get true netural boyancy. If you have periscope depth in your config file set at 14 meters. thats exactly what you'll get when ordering periscope depth. Im pretty sure the positive rise near the surface is gone. (maybe ill go back and verify that)

Up until the 220 mark, the boat behaves as normal, except the positive boyancy will bring you all the way to the surface if you let it. But once you pass the 220 mark, im guessing the boat takes on a little bit of water that you can't see in the damage report screen. You seem to honestly and genuinly be trimmed down. So one could think of diving to 220 meters to get rid of the positive boyancy as a real god's honest trim dive. Pretty damn cool.

One small problem. You can't pump that water out. When on the surface again after divign to 220 to Trim the boat for a netural boyancy, your top surface speed will be reduced by about 3-4 kts. So in that part, Lehmann was partially correct.

I just wish i knew why 220 meters was a magical number to the game. I know in the past it was stated by DTB that the boats in SH3 do take on water, but a water leakage below a certain value isnt reported in the damage report screen.

So the one BIG drawback is the subs top surface speed is reduced by around 4 kts after doign a trim dive (220 + meters) . From a design standpoint, to put the subs top speed back to where it should be, it means increase the subs top speed in the sim file on the blind assumption that the player WILL do a trim dive. Likewise the player will know not to do a trim dive and have a 24-25 kt submarine. However, not going below 220 meters is going to rather hard to NOT do and expect to survive.

I think ill leave this open for discussion, im still collecting my thoughts. Not sure how i feel about it right now.

Uber Gruber

01-23-07, 08:55 AM

Of course one could always hope that NYGM and GWX teams got together and discussed this one out and ironed the minor details for the sake of a better submodel, everyone would bennfit i think.

Here here....and it would be about bloody time 'n all!

Ducimus

01-23-07, 02:39 PM

There yet may be bloody hope for this.

I reran a test with just NYGM's model and noticed the same behavior on the surface. (IE, loss in top speed because the boat was trimmed down and heavier) Purely out of accident i ran it at flank speed for a couple hours under TC, and something happened.

The boat picked up top speed and behaved as normal again.

I then reran a test with both mods combined.

The top speed was restored after about a couple hours!: up: :up: :up:

Im quite happy about that. This has the potential for maximum coolness.. Im running a few more tests to test what i beleive is neutral boyancy after a "trim dive" is in fact nuetural boyancy, as well as stand still behavior after going that deep.

Lanzfeld

01-23-07, 02:54 PM

I guess the couple of hours represents the pumping out of water?

Ducimus

01-23-07, 03:14 PM

I guess the couple of hours represents the pumping out of water?

I just psuedo timed it. Its about 1 hour.

What make testing this difficult is that a 7C and a 9C submarine behave differently.

For the VIIC heres what i noticed:

At "ahead slow" (100RPMS, aka silent speed), your positive bouancy is such that you do not have enough forward motion to go deeper then 10 meters. Its almost like your being held back by surface tension. At ahead 1/3rd, this is not a problem. Goes down like normal.

The positive boyancy is such that at "ahead slow" (100 RPMS), a type 7c doesnt maintain depth. It slowly draws upwards. In my mind a game breaker, however the saving grace is diving at or a bit past 220 meters.

Once you dive to 220 meters, the boat seems trimmed at pefect neutral boyancy. Going back up to periscope depth, the boat went to 14 meters. Exactly what i specfied in the cfg file. Stopping the engines, it didnt broach the surface. It just stayed put hovering.

About 1 hour in the surface and the boat was back to full positive boyancy.

For the IXC

The behavior is a bit different and im guessing what im seeing is the results of having a greater displacement.

At 100 RPMS, when ordered to dive, an IXC will also hang at 10 meters, however it eventualy push's itself down past that, where as a type 7 didnt in my testing.

At 100 RPMS, an IXC could maintain depth without any upward rise without a "trim dive".

After doing a "trim dive", an IXC still kept its slighly positive rise. Periscope depth ended at 13 meters even though i had specified 14 in the CFG file.

Theres one last behavor i need to test in this regard and it is this:

Normally with the GWX model by itself, if you ordered a depth of 15 meters at 1/3rd, but later on you wanted to raise your depth to say 13-14 meters, all you had to do, was lower your RPMS to have less forward motion (IE go from 1/3rd to ahead slow) and the boat would rise by a meter or two. If an IX has maintained some semblance of neutral boyancy, then it should maintain the same periscope depth regardless of forward motion . This is what i need to go back and test after diving to 220-230 meters.

I'll upload a new test file in a couple mins for othes to try, and then i gotta shut this puppy down and get my ass to work before im late. :88)

EDIT:
Test version that has the 7C and 9C.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/release/SUB_Physics_TEST_b.7z

Lanzfeld

01-25-07, 10:11 PM

So what is the latest here. Are you using this combination in your game?

Ducimus

01-25-07, 10:26 PM

Ive got the files together, im just sitting on it for some reason. No one should much interest, no one's apparently tried it and posted more results, so i just stopped looking at it.

The type 7 i think works perfectly as it "probably" should under both, the type 9 i think could use a weee bit of adjusting somewhere, but is probably close enough. Personnaly i think the combo of both is probably for the more hardcore player. I'd use it, but im afraid it will increase my fuel consumption (which is probably realistic. im such a pansy sometimes. lol).

edit:
Seriously though, somebody, D/L the test
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/release/SUB_Physics_TEST_b.7z

And play around with it in some single missions, and post what you think of it. Id appreiciate it if other people looked at it so i know im not smoking crack here.

Der Teddy Bar

01-25-07, 11:17 PM

Ducimus,
This sounds like a very cool project with lots of promise.

I hope that you find the following on how the NYGM Anti Humming Bird sinking effects work to be of value.

The value that effects the sink rate is the Flotability=0.15

When testing I would recommend that you should submerge at ahead standard for 10 minutes game time before looking at cause & effect. The reason being is that the zone needs to be damage and then flood. The damage is via the Crash Depth=1.

As you are aware I have used the one zone, PumpsXXI for II, VII & IX u-boats. I had intended originally to add a new zone to the zones.cfg for each class/type of u-boat but was forced to use the one zone for all the u-boats as any other non u-boat or u-boat zone did not behave correctly. I am certain this is due to hard code references to the zones effecting the u-boats.

[PumpsXXI]
Multiplier=1.0
Flotability=0.15 <== value that effects the sink rate
HitPoints=10
Destructible=No
Armor Level=-1
Critic Flotation=0.99
Critical=No
FloodingTime=10.0
CargoType=None
Crash Depth=1
Father=32

Lanzfeld

01-25-07, 11:35 PM

DTB?

Wow....no wonder a new NYGM update is comming out.

If I never told you NYGM is outstanding. I love the random escorts around England. I hope to see the same concept added elsewhere.

Whats new in the update?

Uber Gruber

01-26-07, 08:51 AM

Mr Teddy Bear.....Your absense record is quite shocking....please see me immediately after class :know:

Lanzfeld

01-26-07, 09:48 AM

Did you happen to mod the type II's?

Ducimus

01-26-07, 12:47 PM

Well this has gotten a bit more complicated. It appears that im getting several different patterns of behavior.

Type 2D
- didnt spend alot of time on it seems to function as one would expect. Surface physics and has positive boyancy. Spin the screws or slowly slowly come to the surface

Type 7B & 7C
- Requires more then 100 RPMS to dive, otherwise it just sits there as if held by surface tension. Until you dive to 220ish meters you have the GWX surface physics with NYGM's changings giving it a positive rise where again, spin the screws or slowly come to the surface. After diving to 220ish meters, the boat takes on full neutral boyancy, and can hover at periscope depth without broaching.

Type 9B & 9C
-Functions how one might expect. GWX surface phsycis with NYGM's changings giving it a true positive boyancy that will slowly bring the boat to the surface should you cut the engines. Diving deep doesnt seem to eliminate the positive boyancy, it seems to keep it no matter what.

Type 9D
-Similar to other type9's only in that surfacing and running on the surface for awhile didnt return the positive boyancy. Boat stayed at a neutral boyancy.

I think clearly there is some variable at work or that can be changed here. I also think part of the problem is understanding exactly how GWX's tweaks work, and why when combined with NYGM's you get a full positive rise rather then a partial one. (NYGM introduces negative boyancy, why is it going in the opposite direction now?)

Ive looked over GWX's sim files before and the only thing i could tell was the addtion of mass. However, im a little credulous that just adding mass starts all the behaviors that the GWX model exhibits. My other guess is thers possibly some other variable not visible to TT's tweaker that is also involved. Other variables that i can see playing with is displacement. ONe should note that there are yet a few other variables that ive NEVER looked at and could be part of it as well. I really don't know.

All told, theres only so much time im willing to devote to this, and i dont want to fall into the trap of continually tweaking a game that ultimatly ill never play because i keep monkeying around with files. In that light im just going to post what i have, incase someone else wants to work on it and let it go.

http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/release/TEST_SUB_COMBINED_Physics.7z

Contains types: 2d, 7b,7c, 9b, 9c, 9d