Possible Workaround for the GPS navigation in SH 3

[dertien]

Hello Everyone,

I've recently been playing SH3 again with GWX coming out, and am quite pleased of the nice work they have all put in this release. Superb.

I was somehow hoping someone would have come up with a 'sextant' mod, but I read some threads on that now, and I' m pretty convinced that it's not possible to mod it in SH3.

But another aspect is this : WHY would you even bother doing the celestial nav yourself. You play the captain not the entire crew now, right ?



The only thing that troubles me is that this uebernavigator seems to get his navigational data from a satelite instead from his sextant instrument. So, as a non modder I ask myself this.

Is it possible in SH3 to:

a) Get rid of the constant u-boat marker on the navmap, but only have an update once in a while on the map, or add a button to the navigator's panel to ask him for a position estimate.
b) Have your navigator make navigation errors deliberately depending on weathercondition, wave state, cloud cover, and getting rid of the GPS like navigation (open seas only)?

Since Tikigod has been working a lot on this matter, the first reaction could be his.

reactions please ?

[Venatore]

Something like......hey navigator were are we (this would be a little information box like in the intergrated orders) once you click on that it brings up the map and shows your postion.....oh lets say for about 2-5 minutes, then the U-Boat symbol goes kaput ! :hmm:

[JohnnyBlaze]

You might be interested of reading this topic
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=93937

I've been using this method for a long while now and not going back to normal

[vanjast]

Here we go... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=102686. (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=102686)

I've also had this in mind for some time. I've finally put the minor details (geomaps, starmaps, celestial info, educational stuff) together and am busy working on the 'sextant'.
Probably the most important aspect is the educational 'guff'. If our Kaleuns are not educated, they cannot navigate. And of course, They must be sold on this idea. :)

[The Noob]

Kaleun n00b has taken bernard off the navigation station and trys to navigate manually...

"Okay, so this must be Brest if im right..."

Some time later...

"OMFG There are russian ships everyware we are getting pwned ARRG!"

*SH3 Death Screen*

No thanks, i'll stick with GPS. :p

[dertien]

So far, so good, I've tried the method appointed by JohnnyBlaze, and I am very pleased with the result.

went down to grid location BF17 to sink some ships with the manual TDC control as well, so I'm getting as real as it gets with SH3.

The immersion is total :rock:, I depart from Kiel, and let the 'GPS' do the navigation through the canal. Once I exit it, I switch to manual nav using the ctrl-mouse method as depicted in the movies of Dantenoc's.

It adds enormous realism to the patrol, especially if you're in a storm and havent had the chance to do a sextant positioning.

On the way back I sail past Helgoland and to the ingress point of the canal. There I let GPS take over again.

This method appeals to me, I would love to try out the sextant thing some modders are working on, and will include it in SH3, but the ctrl-click method is realistic enough for me.

Thanks to you all for the info. Now all there is left to do is to make a rangescale/protractor/compass hybrid tool that you can drag onto the map like the
charts to calculate knots vs distance/hour, and we can keep wazoo's method of speed recognition.

Where's my photoshop???

Gute Jagd und fette Beute

[_Seth_]

Is the SHIII map accurate enough to navigate underwater (with stopwatch and speed& range calculations)? I mean: can i plot the course on a RL map, and then sail the submerged route by excact calculations?

[dertien]

Is the SHIII map accurate enough to navigate underwater (with stopwatch and speed& range calculations)? I mean: can i plot the course on a RL map, and then sail the submerged route by excact calculations?
Hello Seth,

what did you have in mind ?

The problem with adding things to the SH3 map is that, it sucks up computing ressources if you zoom in to the extreme levels. This means, that you can only have a few markers and lines and scribbles on your map before you start to have a stutter effect when you zoom in to the max. Having a real map, where you could actually plot your patrol on and never open the SH3 map so to speak would be grand.

The stutter effect may be due to the fact that my PC is not up to SH3 standards, but nevertheless.

specs:

OS: A tuned Microsoft Vista
SH3 running GWX and some enhancements (periscope degree by degree scale and a few others, just realism enhancements not eye candy)
Particles density in options set to 45

Hardware:

Geforce 6600 SLI 256 MB
Athlon 3200
Ram 500 Megs (this is somewhat low, but doesn't seem to bother during gameplay, only loading times can be up to 5-7 minutes. Time to put on a cuppa.

If you mean using Wazoo' s method of speed calculation, using the stopwatch and the protractor drawing tools, it is VERY accurate. It takes some practice, time and common sense, but once you've got the routine, you can sink almost anything, that your torpedoes or yourself can catch up with. You can do that on your RL map or a noteblock as well.
Sometimes, you get a 'funkmeldung' about an enemy convoy and you can spare yourself the trouble of the calculation.

But I repeat my question, what did you have in mind ?

[dertien]

Ah one thing,

I haven't tried to navigate without TC, It is very accurate as long as you're not going to do a 250 Mile trip underwater. I think you might miss the target by a few tens of meters. This is because your helmsman is the worst in Kriegsmarine history, and he tends to 'let go' off the helm and put you a few degrees off course. However, I am not sure if this happens without time compression. For underwater navigation, it should be pretty accurate, but why do you need the seconds, aren't hours and minutes accrate enough to bear down on a location?

keep me posted

[_Seth_]

Is the SHIII map accurate enough to navigate underwater (with stopwatch and speed& range calculations)? I mean: can i plot the course on a RL map, and then sail the submerged route by excact calculations?
Hello Seth,

what did you have in mind ?

The problem with adding things to the SH3 map is that, it sucks up computing ressources if you zoom in to the extreme levels. This means, that you can only have a few markers and lines and scribbles on your map before you start to have a stutter effect.

This my be due to the fact that my PC is not up to SH3 standards, but nevertheless.

specs:

OS: A tuned Microsoft Vista
SH3 running GWX and some enhancements (periscope degree by degree scale and a few others, just realism enhancements not eye candy)
Particles density in options set to 45

Hardware:

Geforce 6600 SLI 256 MB
Athlon 3200
Ram 500 Megs (this is somewhat low, but doesn't seem to bother during gameplay, only loading times can be up to 5-7 minutes. Time to put on a cuppa.

If you mean using Wazoo' s method of speed calculation, using the stopwatch and the protractor drawing tools, it is VERY accurate. It takes some practice, time and common sense, but once you've got the routine, you can sink almost anything, that your torpedoes or yourself can catch up with.
Sometimes, you get a 'funkmeldung' about an enemy convoy and you can spare yourself the trouble of the calculation.

But I repeat my question, what did you have in mind ?

Im sorry if i was unclear, mate..I was thinking about navigating "off-game", and then to use those calculations in SHIII. I have now anchored up my u-boat in a little fjord outside Trondheim. My goal is to navigate out to sea underwater, only using the stopwatch.I have calculated range and bearing on the map, and noted this down in a book i use for such purposes. I have calculated a underwater speed of 10 kts, with snorkel up.

This is my calculations:

Leg 1: 056 degrees -- 8,0 km @10 Kts.
ETA Leg 2 in 25 minutes 55 seconds

TURN LEG 2

Leg 2: 044 degrees -- 10 km @10 Kts.
ETA Leg 3 in 32 minutes and 23 seconds

TURN LEG 3

Leg 3: 052 degrees -- 6,5 km @ 10 Kts.
ETA Leg 4 in 21 minutes and 03 seconds

TURN LEG 4

Leg 4: 328 degrees -- 4,0 km @ 10 kts.
ETA Leg 4 in 12 minutes and 57 seconds

TURN LEG 5

Leg 5: 000 degrees -- 3,0 km @ 10 kts.
ETA End of leg 9 minutes and 43 seconds


______________________________________________

Does this seem right..?

[dertien]

:sunny: ahaaa, that's your plan, looks like a realism addon :D. Sneaking past the brits out of the harbour to have a nice glass of schnapps, ja ?

Well, I think that in stock SH3 this is more than possible and actually feasible.

GWX looking in above water situations (if you have read the manual) is a totally different ballgame. In a nutshell, your U-boat's overall 'lage' is not only subject to your sleepy helmsman, but will differ also on weather conditions. So, above water going through a storm, it will eat away a knot or two on your speed instead of doing the same run on a sunny day. Dunno if this is actually changing in relation to how deep you are. Even in choppy seas, if you're like 5-7 meters underwater, you are motionless. I' m a diver and I have hands on experience with that.

I dunno about underwater behavior of GWX, I should test it and let you know. Are u running GWX ? , then I can't answer your question (yet) for underwater matters.

Do you have an exact screenshot position for your uboat, as well as your initial bearing, or is there a way to import Lat/Long data onto the SH3 map ?

But if you're running by the second, you're LI, better not be deaf!

[_Seth_]

The sea is calm, and i im 13 minutes into the first leg. I willl post the results when i have reached the end. I agree on the wave factors, they make it more difficult to estimate an accurate ETA. About underwater, i hope to discover something now. I cant give you screens, that would be cheating..:rotfl: I only use the control room view and a stopwatch.
BTW:I was just wondering if my speed & time calculations was correct.. If they arent, my crew will hit the Norwegian coast pretty hard....:lol:

[dertien]

Keep me posted on this, This could also come in handy to sneak up onto a convoy with only a stopwatch and the hydrophones.

That Norwegian coast will hit harder than any amount of schnapps ever will.

Gute Jagd und Fette Beute, Herr Kaleun

[_Seth_]

Keep me posted on this, This could also come in handy to sneak up onto a convoy with only a stopwatch and the hydrophones.

That Norwegian coast will hit harder than any amount of schnapps ever will.

Gute Jagd und Fette Beute, Herr Kaleun

Danke Schön, mein Herr! I will keep you informed. I just turned on the other leg now, operations normal.

No schnapps for the crew until we are done!:up::up:

[_Seth_]

Here is some pics of the Nav tour. It went better that expected, not a scratch on the keel.
PS: The drawings are made with paint, and the lines are NOT accurate with the original navplot i made on the map, neither in length or degrees. Its just to show the legs on the map.
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2382/nav1ro5.jpg

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/585/nav2rd8.jpg


Its accurate enough for me! :up::up:
Conclusion: It is possible to navigate in SHIII using only a stopwatch and prefabricated bearings, and without using the map. The course wont deviate that much, yet it have to be tested on longer patrols.

[dertien]

That's a pretty good news for Günther Prien's underwater inshore Scapa Flow attack... if you know the position of the mines and the nets from B-dienst that is...

40 meters is not much, but... its not perfectamundo. I wouldn't wanna bump my feeble little VII into the side of the Hood battleship at 2 o'clock in the morning and wake up about 1000 angry sailors, if you catch my drift. Anyhow, it's still quite an achievement But Helga will need to be around to wipe that sweat of your forehead KL.

U using GWX or stock sh3 Seth ?


nice one!

[_Seth_]

That's a pretty good news for Günther Prien's underwater inshore Scapa Flow attack... if you know the position of the mines and the nets from B-dienst that is...

40 meters is not much, but... its not perfectamundo. I wouldn't wanna bump my feeble little VII into the side of the Hood battleship at 2 o'clock in the morning and wake up about 1000 angry sailors, if you catch my drift. Anyhow, it's still quite an achievement But Helga will need to be around to wipe that sweat of your forehead KL.

U using GWX or stock sh3 Seth ?


nice one! GWX, of course!!
I think those 40 meters offtrack could be fixed with a better calculation. I havent calculated for turns, and the drop of speed in those turns. I have to make a note of the turn radius of the sub, and the speed drop at both submerged and surfaced level.I also have to consider the time between order given and actual response time from crew. Than calculate this into the navplot. It could be done, hmmmmm *_Seth_ puts on the thinking hat..*:yep:

Edit: I had Bernard to wipe away my sweat this time. But, NO MORE!! He found a rag in the machine room, that he used to wipe, and its was full of OIL! Like: Full of "Reporter-in-das boot-gets-oily-rag-in-face" full of oil! That stupid #@!%!!

[azn_132]

[/quote]
Edit: I had Bernard to wipe away my sweat this time. But, NO MORE!! He found a rag in the machine room, that he used to wipe, and its was full of OIL! Like: Full of "Reporter-in-das boot-gets-oily-rag-in-face" full of oil! That stupid #@!%!![/quote]
:rotfl: :rotfl: Bernard when I ask him where is my logbook he said dont worry its safe and sound instead he shove it up his butt.

[dertien]

Talking about hardcore, U must have a lot of free time on your hands to be able to test that all.:D

For myself I would say that i'm not going to go on such risky endeavours:lol:,IMHO plotting a manual course all around britain, without the use of the UeberBernhard and the manual speed calculation of targets, is already going as far in terms of realism as one would want.
I've seen some recent movement in the 'sextant' mod department which I certainly encourage, but I feel that I am doing the work of 2 crewmembers already.

Furhtermore, I feel that there's a lack of female personnel in the Kriegsmarine on those long trips away from the heimat so,:nope: , enuf is enuf.

p.s. Nyees, let alone other things he wiped off with that rag...:o, Eins WO's forehead for example (sackratten) not to mention Frenssen's feet.:doh:

[_Seth_]

Talking about hardcore, U must have a lot of free time on your hands to be able to test that all.:D

For myself I would say that i'm not going to go on such risky endeavours:lol:,IMHO plotting a manual course all around britain, without the use of the UeberBernhard and the manual speed calculation of targets, is already going as far in terms of realism as one would want.
I've seen some recent movement in the 'sextant' mod department which I certainly encourage, but I feel that I am doing the work of 2 crewmembers already.

Furhtermore, I feel that there's a lack of female personnel in the Kriegsmarine on those long trips away from the heimat so,:nope: , enuf is enuf.

p.s. Nyees, let alone other things he wiped off with that rag...:o, Eins WO's forehead for example (sackratten) not to mention Frenssen's feet.:doh:
My time is precious,mate, but i use every bit of free time on SHIII and/or topics like this. My dream would be a SHIII without the map, and the only way to navigate would be with real-life instruments and maps...:hmm:
(When im flightsimming, i use real-life maps and navigation instruments. I actually use about 2-3 hours to plan a simple VFR flight, before even flying...)

At last, thit only raises the question: are the distances on the SHIII map similar to the real-world distances....?

Oh my god...i forgot Frenssen's feet....i have to hit the shower! NOW!!!
Im gonna chop that Bernard-@#s into pieces and send it to different continents!!!:rotfl:

[dertien]

Ok, realism is the thing I strive for as well, that's why in my days of flight simming I tossed away Mickeysofts Flight Sim series for the more in depth FLY 2.

I can understand that you seek realism in flightsimming, maybe you want to own your own plane which is :cool:, and have a hands on all the VFR, IFR, ILS, pre flight operations and preparations etc, know how the radionavigation works, NDB's VOR's etc... which is a great addition if you wish to become a student pilot. But no rudeness intended, IMHO SH3 remains and will always remain a game. A very simulation oriented game, but still a game, unless the whole SH 3 community donates 100 dollar, buys a VII boat and tests out what they have learned in the modded version of SH3, posts it here and convinces me otherwise. And even if it were a sim, with real benchmarks, it would not make us more than nostalgic u-boat captains 60 years+ past our due date, not airline pilots to be.

I want to learn to use real life instruments like yourself, the sextant, for example, if that precious GPS battery fails on your sailing trip, and the skies are clear it's nice to have it around and having the knowledge to use it.

This being said, I will stop ranting. I was looking for a way to navigate without Gerhard and I just did my first patrol succesfully without him.

I dunno if the distances are correct, I assume so in a simulation, but yes... its dangerous to assume before you have proof.

I'll drink to that.

[dertien]

Thinking logically, if you make that test again, and making no mistakes of your own, using a real map, and getting to the exact same point on the SH3map.

Then I would assume e=mc2 no ?

maybe I'm wrong, but thats my logic.

[_Seth_]

You are not rude, mate! Not at all! :up: This is an excellent discussion, and i agree with you, SHIII is and will always be a game. So will FS2004 & FSX also! I only try to seek every bit of realism i can get! (I have actually taken flight lessons, but had to stop when i joined the army...wasnt time enought..But i will continue when i get more time on my hands..:up:)

Im in on 100 bucks a piece to buy a VII boat, to test things out!!!!!! :rotfl:

Everybody playes the game as they like, and thats not bad at all! You like it your way, i like it my way, some other like it his way..It should be fun, no doubt! Some like vanilla, some like GWX, some like NYGM..... We are all different, thank god for that! :yep:

If i can suggest that we go back to topic, mate.... Not to be rude, but others might be looking for answers in this thread..
Thanx for excellent discussion, buddy!!! :rock:
I'll drink to that too, mate! No hard feelings!! :up::up:

Cheers!

[_Seth_]

Thinking logically, if you make that test again, and making no mistakes of your own, using a real map, and getting to the exact same point on the SH3map.

Then I would assume e=mc2 no ?

maybe I'm wrong, but thats my logic. :hmm: Yeah, that would prove if it works or not! EXCELLENT!!!!
THANX!!:up::up: I'll get right on it when i have more time, and i will post the results, mate!

[dertien]

Right ,right, wos drifting off again. Bloody Gerhard, will have him on potato peeling shift when I reach Kiel :)

Well as far as I'm concerned, I am happy with the result I got from the thread. I got wot I wanted (manual navigation). There's only the problem now of the helmsman letting the boat drift off course.

Will need to do some posting and testing to see if drift is really a factor in SH3, has it been modded or does it only seem so with the helmsman, And very importantly does he drift off course without using time compression.

I've read the manual that came with my SH3 DVD, but it comes no way near the manual I used to have playing 'aces of the deep' in the old days.

Furthermore, a new tool is needed for manual TDC target speed input.

Started another thread here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103074), hopefully the fantastic Wazoo and his henchmen will react:

:hmm:

[_Seth_]

Sounds good, mate! BTW: The helmsman problem looks to be a hard-coded issue... I cant say i experienced that in my nav trial. but, as i stated, the trial wasnt a long one. I wouldnt go from Brest to Iceland with this way of navigating... I would end up in New York...:nope::rotfl:

[JohnnyBlaze]

It's great you guys find this manual navigating to be so cool in the game.

It's a method I learned from the masters Don1reed and Dantenoc a long while ago.

Also like to keep things realistic, but I also use my officers and crew to do things sometimes.

It was a neat experience to manually navigate through the english channel. Night time on the surface and at daylight underwater, only surfacing for a few minutes to take a sextant reading of my position.

And guess what... I survived the channel

[_Seth_]

And guess what... I survived the channel IN GWX??????????????:o:o:o:o:o

[azn_132]

And guess what... I survived the channel IN GWX??????????????:o:o:o:o:o
I did too but wit damage.

[_Seth_]

And guess what... I survived the channel IN GWX??????????????:o:o:o:o:o I did too but wit damage.
...You guys.... You got cohones!! ...

"_Seth_, also called Big white buffalotail, only go to channel when he want death....." *Dancing around computer*

[azn_132]

And guess what... I survived the channel IN GWX??????????????:o:o:o:o:o I did too but wit damage.
...You guys.... You got cohones!! ...

"_Seth_, also called Big white buffalotail, only go to channel when he want death....." *Dancing around computer*
Hell the Irish coast for me is death check on the screenshot thread and yes I did "cheated" by goin to my saved career before I start my 6th patrol.

[ref]

[quote=dertien]
At last, thit only raises the question: are the distances on the SHIII map similar to the real-world distances....?

I didn't compare it to an actual map (it changes a lot depending on the projection used), but when I made the Kiel canal, I used google earth captures to plot it and sh3 terrain is very inacurate, (ie: IIRC the real canal is about 90 km, in sh3 is about 130...)
if you use a standard mercator map I think you're ok, but if you use navigation charts you're in problems.

Ref

[dertien]

[quote=dertien]
At last, thit only raises the question: are the distances on the SHIII map similar to the real-world distances....?
I didn't compare it to an actual map (it changes a lot depending on the projection used), but when I made the Kiel canal, I used google earth captures to plot it and sh3 terrain is very inacurate, (ie: IIRC the real canal is about 90 km, in sh3 is about 130...)
if you use a standard mercator map I think you're ok, but if you use navigation charts you're in problems.

Ref

Google Earth :damn: , now why didn't i think of that, I have it on my desktop dammit !!!!

[_Seth_]

[quote=dertien]
At last, thit only raises the question: are the distances on the SHIII map similar to the real-world distances....?
I didn't compare it to an actual map (it changes a lot depending on the projection used), but when I made the Kiel canal, I used google earth captures to plot it and sh3 terrain is very inacurate, (ie: IIRC the real canal is about 90 km, in sh3 is about 130...)
if you use a standard mercator map I think you're ok, but if you use navigation charts you're in problems.

Ref
Ok, thanks for answer, mate! This could be taken into account when navigating, using calculations to compensate. But: This rely on the errors in distance being the same all over. IE: If the difference ratio in the North Sea is 30/50 (Real length 30 km, SHIII mesurement 50 km) it better be the same in penang..:up:

[JohnnyBlaze]

And guess what... I survived the channel IN GWX??????????????:o:o:o:o:o

Actually not GWX, but NYGM 2. Dont really think there's a big difference between them, but will have to try it again to be sure.

Havent really played that much of GWX yet to compare the two mods in difficulty.

[_Seth_]

And guess what... I survived the channel IN GWX??????????????:o:o:o:o:o
Actually not GWX, but NYGM 2. Dont really think there's a big difference between them, but will have to try it again to be sure.

Havent really played that much of GWX yet to compare the two mods in difficulty.
Well, its a rough place anyhow...Shallow waters, aircrafts and Elco's...

[johan_d]

Seth and Dertien,

Maybe you know me, I was with PSS a long time, (MSFS) and always like the big birds. Yes, I like the B747-400 very much, favorite. (saw the -200 at Lelystad?) anyhow, as you might now there is also a sextand for FS9, and it works well, but not mastered it.
I fell in love with the Connie, and in the early days they used the sextand at night for example to fly to Hawai, from the US east coast.
BUT, to have any USE of a sextand, one needs to have table books. Calculations for star settings and so on. I know somewhere there is one online, but I doubt its going back to 1930'ths. A sextand mod alone doesnt help.
Then, I guess, its a bit dead reckoning you wanna do. Use the map. You can time courses, use visual clues, time courses and headings.. but how about the drift?
And is the SH3 sky correct?
I think SH3 has to many flaws to do it that way, unless you got good observations, on wind speeds and directions.
As a flightsimmer I dont have to tell you that I think.

Let me know if you made any progress, interresting subject.

[_Seth_]

PSS...You guys had a great airbus collection, IIRC... And an excellent Dash-8...
on topic:: We might make it, we might not..Thats what modding is all about. I agree with you, excact data of the stars are difficult to get, consider the timespan. We'll give it a try. It really sounds like Dertien has things under control. I have to stick to dead reconing for now...:up: