Is SHIII + GWX What Stock SHIII Should Have Been in the First Place?

[Iron Budokan]

I'm not knocking stock SHIII at all. I think it was a fastastic sim when it came out and still do. It has set the bar for any and all subsequent subsims and yeah, like it or not, SHIV is going to have to meet or exceed that expectation. That's reality both in a gaming sense and a business sense.

But the original game had problems (both buggy and otherwise) which all of us know about and which has been thoroughly documented. It appears GWX addressed a lot of these concerns. But now with GWX do we finally have the game SHIII should have been when released in the first place?

And now that we have GWX, does the mod lessen the historical impact SHIII had when it first appeared on the shelves?

I'm curious to know what you guys think.

[GT182]

IMHO and only my opinion.... yes. SHIII with GWX has what they did not deliver, and for whatever reason that was.. As with most games the publisher rules when a game is to hit the market, whether it's finished or not. That's also the reason for patches, to fix errors not seen until a game is played by the masses. And unfortunately SHIII never got the 5th patch it needed. To me GWX is part 5th patch and expansion pack for SHIII. The same could be said for RUB and NYGM mods for SHIII. It just depends on what you see that these mods have accomplished. Which to me is a great deal of things corrected and improved upon for game play and eyecandy of course.

[Tigrone]

Acceptable is an important word. SH3 had a great basis and concept but was incomplete and not properly tested. Do you remember the great black obelisk and partical spray nonsense? And too, it's programmers were too action game focused and did not realize that people would play it for hours, not just minutes, and often in near real time. GWX completes what they left unfinished. It is a great compliment and gift to us, the ordinary players, that The Captain and his crew at GWX put so much into making it right. SH3 out of the box was not acceptable, but at least it learned from the fatal failures of SH2 and had a dynamic core that could be made to work.

Thank you Grey Wolves, IUB, NYGM and all the amazing combined work of skinners and modders that presented us with such enhancements to the game.

[Paajtor]

I disagree, because of one main feature that is still missing.

GWX didn't add or fix what SH3 should have had, which are wolve-packs.
I'm not talking multiplayer, which gives some sort of feeling of being in wolve-pack, but single-player off course...in a fully dynamic campaign.


But I always loved SH3, and do so even more with the incredible GWX-mod! :up:

[TarJak]

I disagree, because of one main feature that is still missing.

GWX didn't add or fix what SH3 should have had, which are wolve-packs.
I'm not talking multiplayer, which gives some sort of feeling of being in wolve-pack, but single-player off course...in a fully dynamic campaign.


But I always loved SH3, and do so even more with the incredible GWX-mod! :up:

Not quite right to say that GWX has no wolf packs. There are other U-boats and they come when you call and they do attack. The problem is that there is no AI torpedo which means they attack on the surface with deck guns.

[Jimbuna]

Can't disagree with you people here but I think GT is right on the money with his viewpoint :yep:
SH3 was def 'half baked' but thanks to a small group of modders the game has been improved to such a high standard I only hope the devs of SH4 take stock and notice how this community (and many others) can thrive given the right product.

So to all you mod teams out there..and in particular the Kpt. and GWX team...I leave you with these immortal words from Old Winston himself..."Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few" :rock: Mines a pint :()1:

Salute :arrgh!:

[GSpector]

I wish a mod on scale much like GWX could have been done for B-17II. It's a shame the same could not be done. It was a great Sim with so much potential:(

[Sailor Steve]

Is SHIII + GWX What Stock SHIII Should Have Been in the First Place?

No. Not even close. The very first time someone said this I started to grind my teeth.

There are a number of things that no mod can address, let alone fix.

1) The sound applications are bad. The whispering mode should only be on when silent running is engaged. As it is it tells you any time you've been detected, even when the crew couldn't know that.

2) The interiors of the subs are wrong. The observation periscope is in the wrong place. There should be a very large housing running through the control room for the attack periscope. There is no helmsman at the front of the control room.

3) The crew management is of course totally bogus. There are no watch shifts. The radio and sound stations should not both have to be manned to make one of them work. The watch officer has to be manually placed on the bridge every time you surface. When engine room crew are too tired to work they should be rotated out automatically by their watch officers.

There are dozens of other things that I don't seem to be able to think of right now, and they will never be fixed without source-code access. GWX is probably a great mod, but it is not "SHIII as it should have been".

[CWorth]

Stock bugs that everyone knows about aside.

The GW team,and all modders at that,have done more for this game in terms of patching,fixing,and adding more stuff then Ubi ever did for the game.

Ubi gave us a broken,half finished product and then dumped it without really fixing it.It then fell to the community which took the reigns and did what Ubi refused to do,could not do,or simply did not want do and made this game what it should have been on release day.

With a question like this it all comes down to personal tastes and what you expected/wanted when you bought the game.I expected a Uboat simulator..what I got was a broken arcade submarine game.Now I got what I expected when I first bought the game.So to me..YES..GWX IS what SH3 should have been from day one.

For others the stock game may have been just right for them so the answer would be an obvious no.

[Iron Budokan]

I must say having been the person who posed the question in the first place it now behooves me to answer my own post.

I think we now have what SH3 should have been in the first place, thanks to a superb community and the tireless efforts of modders all over the globe. I still maintain stock SH3 was a high bar in subsims when it first appeared...but it WAS a half-finished product. Need we be reminded of the patch after patch that came out? To be sure UBI was pretty fast with these patches, but good grief they must have played the game themselves and knew these problems existed. But for whatever reason the product was rushed to the shelves and we had what some have deemed "a broken game."

Now I'm not certain it was "broken" per se but it was most certainly not polished. Then again few games are nowadays. But, yeah, today with NYGM and GWX we finally have a game that SH3 SHOULD have been in the first place. It didn't have to be so...well, half-baked in the beginning.

As awesome as it was when it came out, it now pales in comparison to what modders have done to it. But I guess, to be fair, this is true of a lot of games.

(It's just that we bubbleheads tend to be a pickier lot. I know I am, anyway.)

Which brings up the second question. Does this in any way diminish SH3's historical impact on subsims? The answer to that, imo, is an unqualified no. With the graphics, the attention to detail and a crew we could manage (okay, I admit made easier after a few mods came on line) SH3 was a trend-setting submarine sim as soon as it was released. And no one can take that away from it, despite any faults it may have had in the beginning.

Eh, my two yen.

[GT182]

Many things that are wrong or incorrect in stock SHIII are hardcoded and unchangeable. That's why GWX didn't correct the errors some complain about. And there's no way the source code will ever be given for them to be fixed. So we have to live with what we have... and GWX makes it as close as it can be for now.

The same thing happened with B17 "the Mighty 8th" as GSpecter knows all too well. We begged for that to be fixed but it all fell on deaf ears. The same will happen with SHIII if a fix is ever asked for again. That's a given we all know, as the 5th patch was asked for. The answer was "it ain't gonna happen, SHIV is more important". Just hope they do SHIV right, right from the start. But IMHO, I don't think that will happen either.

[LeafsFan]

Just hope they do SHIV right, right from the start. But IMHO, I don't think that will happen either.

Me too.

HB

[azn_132]

Me Three.

[Mav87th]

To the original question - goddamn no, we would have waited all these !years! for it then - i have been having fun with StockSHIII, Rub in any form and GW1.1 for a long time, GWX is what carries on the torch for me.

A hell of a job.

I can't help to place similarities between Falcon4.0 and SHIII - both were far beyond anything we had when they came out - and both have been taken to unbelivable levels by comunity modders. I'm flying Falcon4.0 on my 8th year now in 87th Stray Dogs, and i can't see that stop anytime soon - Falcon just IS that great.

SHIII has one MAJOR advantage though - it has developers, that imo works with the comunity in ways i would wish for for Falcon. And they continue to develope the product beyond what i had dared hope for - WAY TO GO DUDES.

[Iron Budokan]

I agree. The community and modders for the subsim community are awesome. We can never praise them enough, imo.

But I'm curious. Why do so many people believe SH4 will not be developed properly? Is it because of the experience with UBI in the past or what? Jus' wonderin'....

[GT182]

by Mav87th
SHIII has one MAJOR advantage though - it has developers, that imo works with the comunity in ways i would wish for for Falcon. And they continue to develope the product beyond what i had dared hope for - WAY TO GO DUDES.

Mav, the developers abandoned SHIII after patch 1.4b was given to us. I think the advantage you speak of for SHIII comes from the modders. They've done all the work to bring SHIII to the level it is now, the developers had nothing to do with it. Just as they had nothing to do with GWX, all that work was by modders only.

[mookiemookie]

No, it's not what the game should be. However, it's brought the game a long way from stock SH3 which was incomplete for all the reasons that everyone has already outlined. A few more off the top of my head, and some that people have already brought up that I'd like to reiterate:

1. Lack of wolfpacks. Come on...that's what U-boats are KNOWN for! To leave out their trademark tactic is unacceptable.

2. Milk cows. Yes, they've been modded in but they still don't feel quite right since you're starting a new patrol everytime you dock at one, and you get a full loadout of torpedos and fuel instead of a partial resupply which is more realistic. There was talk from the developers at one point that they were to be added in a patch that never materialized.

3. Stock damage model. It's a joke. To attempt to simulate physics with "hit points" is garbage. The mods have come a LONG way in fixing this aspect though.

4. The miscellaneous errors in equipment availability dates, range you can travel on batteries, etc. That info can be found in five minutes on uboat.net, or in any one of the numerous books on U-boats. Mods have fixed this, thankfully.

5. Airplane behavior/physics. Wonky at best, pitiful at worst. Mods have improved this significantly, but there's still room for it to be better. I guess this is about as good as it gets though.

6. Operational areas. The Med in stock SH3 is nearly empty, and the Indian ocean/Asia *is* empty. While I can understand the focus being on the Battle of the Atlantic, SH3 is still a U-boat sim and U-boats did operate in these areas. Luckily we've got this fixed.

7. No other missions besides "Patrol Grid XXXX for 24 hrs" and not being able to request a new patrol grid from BdU. I guess we're stuck with this. SH3 Gen provides a nice workaround for that though. Wish it was a bit more integrated into the game (i.e. SH3Gen missions show up in your orders, you get renown for accomplishing them, etc), but this can't happen unfortunately.

8. Playing The Sims: Happy U-Boat Funtime! with your crew. I have better things to do than click on crewmen to see who's rested up enough to make the damn engines run. Not much to be done about this...

9. The weather model is crummy. I know the North Atlantic was a crappy place in the winter, but come on. Three straight weeks of hurricane force winds and rain doesn't seem quite realistic to me.

10. Lack of real control over your U-boat. I'd like to see being able to run on one engine, run on e-motor on the surface, run with decks awash, the ability to give an abandon ship order...heck, even let me control the dive planes. (Actually, poking through the sounds folder, it looks like they were going to include shallow and steep dives at one point as there's a crewman voice file confirming the order)

GWX is an outstanding mod, and my hat is off to Kpt. Lehmann and his band of merry men. It brings the game a long way from what it was. But since most of the defects I've laid out are hard coded into the game and without access to the source code or the release of a software development kit (I guess hope for that is pretty much dead with the developers working on SHIV)...it just cannot be what a true U-boat simulation should be.

[GSpector]

I agree with GT but I will give credit where credit is also due. The Developers did give us this product that we still enjoy so much and they made it open enough for us to improve upon it. Sadly though, they also gave us a product that needed to be improved upon so soon out the door.

Now, if they gave us a product as bad as some seem to claim, I don't think anyone here would have touched it let alone bought it when the word got out.

So I http://www.bombs-away.net/forums/images/smilies/salute.gif (http://www.bombs-away.net/forums/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=0&forumid=24#) those that stood up and not only said they can make it better but actually did. Yes, I http://www.bombs-away.net/forums/images/smilies/salute.gif (http://www.bombs-away.net/forums/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=0&forumid=24#) you too GT and all the Beta Testers.

[CWorth]

Now, if they gave us a product as bad as some seem to claim, I don't think anyone here would have touched it let alone bought it when the word got out.


Believe me..if it was not for the modders who have turned this from an arcade shoot-em-up submarine game to the realistic Uboat simulator it is now.I would have uninstalled the game and left it to collect dust on my shelf a very long time ago.

Now I will have this simulator on my hard drive for months to come if not longer thanks to the mods like RUB and the GW and GWX.I bought the game the day it was released and have been playing it since thanks to people like Kpt.Lehman.Marhkimov,Sergbuto,Fubar,Dowly,and the many other modders who have given their free time to make this the greatest Uboat Simulator ever.

[Corsair]

"9. The weather model is crummy. I know the North Atlantic was a crappy place in the winter, but come on. Three straight weeks of hurricane force winds and rain doesn't seem quite realistic to me."

The strongest winds we get are 15 m/s this is roughly 30 knts. Average wind speeds in hurricanes are 100 Knts, so we are far from that...:D
Having spent many winters in the west of France, I can tell you winter storms are often a lot more than 30 knts IRL...;)
As for the rain, in my hometown we predict weather in winter by looking at a cape (cape Frehel) and it goes : " if you see the cape, rain is coming. If you don't see it, it's already raining."
The problem with weather change is that when you save the game, the counter is reset. I find SH3 Weather being helpful even if not perfect.

[Mav87th]

"9. The weather model is crummy. I know the North Atlantic was a crappy place in the winter, but come on. Three straight weeks of hurricane force winds and rain doesn't seem quite realistic to me."

The strongest winds we get are 15 m/s this is roughly 30 knts. Average wind speeds in hurricanes are 100 Knts, so we are far from that...:D
Having spent many winters in the west of France, I can tell you winter storms are often a lot more than 30 knts IRL...;)
As for the rain, in my hometown we predict weather in winter by looking at a cape (cape Frehel) and it goes : " if you see the cape, rain is coming. If you don't see it, it's already raining."
The problem with weather change is that when you save the game, the counter is reset. I find SH3 Weather being helpful even if not perfect.

Heh yea - just try and come living in the western part of Denmark....that will give you wind and rain.

[AVGWarhawk]

Is SHIII + GWX What Stock SHIII Should Have Been in the First Place?




There are dozens of other things that I don't seem to be able to think of right now, and they will never be fixed without source-code access. GWX is probably a great mod, but it is not "SHIII as it should have been".


GWX is PROBABLY a great mod?, it is a GREAT mod and it is damn near close to what SH3 should have been. Somethings cannot be fixed. These issues would have been addressed by all the modders long ago. For the price you cannot beat it therefore, SH3 and GWX are what the stock SH3 should have been. Imagine if all that GWX has to offer was out there upon release of the game....imagine were we would be now if the GWX team did not have to rebuild it over the last two years. Maybe all the things you listed would be gone???? I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth...GWX is the ****!!!:rock:Just my opinion Steve....;) no intention of raising the hackles!

[ReallyDedPoet]

I remember when SHIII came out I thought it was a great game ( especially given what SHII was ), yes with bugs, but a great game.

Grey Wolves, NYGM, Rub, and now GWX have made it an almost 10 in my opinion. I am looking forward to SHIV, but there is just something about U Boats, I will be playing this sim for a long time it is just that good

[mookiemookie]

"9. The weather model is crummy. I know the North Atlantic was a crappy place in the winter, but come on. Three straight weeks of hurricane force winds and rain doesn't seem quite realistic to me."

The strongest winds we get are 15 m/s this is roughly 30 knts. Average wind speeds in hurricanes are 100 Knts, so we are far from that...:D
Having spent many winters in the west of France, I can tell you winter storms are often a lot more than 30 knts IRL...;)
As for the rain, in my hometown we predict weather in winter by looking at a cape (cape Frehel) and it goes : " if you see the cape, rain is coming. If you don't see it, it's already raining."
The problem with weather change is that when you save the game, the counter is reset. I find SH3 Weather being helpful even if not perfect.

Heh yea - just try and come living in the western part of Denmark....that will give you wind and rain.

Fine, fine! You got me. I'll concede my point on the weather model! :lol: But the rest still stand! :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

GWX is PROBABLY a great mod?, it is a GREAT mod and it is damn near close to what SH3 should have been.
I'm forced to say probably, since I can't see it for myself. It's like saying a Ferrari is probably a great car. Everyone says it is, but I've never driven one so I can't say first-hand.

As to your other points, there is no doubt that each new supermod is a vast improvement on the original, and as soon as I can play again I'm sure I'll love it; especially the Canal and ship graphics, and the performance. It's not any modders fault that certain things can't be touched, but my opinion is that until they can be fixed SHIII cannot ever be what it might have and should have been.

So, as I said, I have no argument with people who say GWX is the best mod yet and does amazing things for the game. My disagreement is with those who say it makes SHIII what it should have been, because to me that is equivalent to saying it fixes everything and makes it perfect. Which it doesn't.

[Brag]

In MHO, GWX is to SHIII what SHIII was to SHII, a vast improvement. UBI, like any biz has to struggle with budgets, etc. They are not the enemy. What is amazing is what the GWX team has done, they have set the bar quite high. Will SHIV come up to GWX level? :roll:

[Nippelspanner]

IMO No, its not.

there are still too many features missing. wolpacks (real wolfpacks), more communications, better sub handling (batteries etc.), crew shifts/management etc. etc.

GWX cant implement that, no mod can, because of the SDK thing...
but GWX is still the best what you can get for SH3 i think...

maybe it will be possible to "transplant" a few features from SHIV in SHIII...

[elite_hunter_sh3]

<Mod Edit We do not talk about that here. PERIOD JCC>

[CWorth]

<Mod Edit We do not talk about that here. PERIOD JCC>

Not to sure about that though...

The SH3 devs have said they appriciate the modders work and what they have done with their game but I highly doubt if they would allow someone to crack into the hard-code of the game.Then you are entering into a major legal issue there that is best left alone.If Ubi wanted us to be able to do some of these other things that are still missing they would have released the SDK for it.However it is obvious they want to hold the code to themselves for obvious reasons..one being they are still using it themsleves to make the new SH4.

We can only hope that after SH4 is done they will release something for us to use with SH3 in the form of some sort of SDK.Highly doubtful seeing as how Ubi is so stingy with their SDK's for their games,but you can hope.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

<Edit>

[mookiemookie]

I think it's best off to leave the hard coding alone. You would be setting yourself up for a knock on the door from the suits from Ubi, holding a legal summons in their hands.

<Mod edit Not to metion a permanent ban from Subsim.com JCC>

[GSpector]

Hello elite_hunter_sh3,

Do you really want to find out how much UBI cares about their product? I wouldn't want to.:nope:

You want to know how they would find out? Remember, they have a contact here in the forum. At some point they would know and if you (or your neighbor) changed something that could not be changed, it would be a dead give away.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

well i guess i can forget about this part of modding :nope: o well back to gwx :rock:

[GSpector]

Hello elite_hunter_sh3,

Yea, I know bummer. It would be great but the risk is just to high.

<Mod Edit Geeze have ANY of you read the Subsim terms of usage?>

[Subwolf]

Topic starter, easy for you to say. The release of SH3 was already delayed for several months because the community wanted to include a career mode. It's good that Ubisoft decided to listen, I wouldn't buy SH3 without a career mode. If they had to include much of the GWX stuff as well we would have seen further delays and the whole project would be a loss for Ubisoft.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

wat if i asked ubu if i cud make a mod they didnt have to do anything to supply me jus giv eme permission then when i finish mod i give the mod to them and they sell it at a very VERY cheap price with my consent? will that work?

[elite_hunter_sh3]

cuz i have good exp with hard coding and software development kits and ive even done modding without the sdk's i

will start to plan an expansion that includes (a.i subs, wolfpacks, real milkows, better dynamic campaign or maybe a destroyer command(which will take a few months )

meanwhile right now

i need all the software pple know about that make mods or that the modders here use to mod the game thnx.

[CWorth]

wat if i asked ubu if i cud make a mod they didnt have to do anything to supply me jus giv eme permission then when i finish mod i give the mod to them and they sell it at a very VERY cheap price with my consent? will that work?

Well...it never hurts to ask.

The worst they could say is no and the best is yes.

Though typically there would be licensing fees and other costs you would have to pay for the use of their code etc.

So to be a free mod would really not be worth it in the long run.And even if it would be a payware add-on that did add some of the missing parts like AI subs that actually work correctly etc. etc. you would need to sell quite a few copies just to recover the cost of the fees paid to Ubi.

[GSpector]

elite_hunter_sh3, I see nothing wrong if you ask them 1st. Then your safe.

Best advice I could give is if/when you ask, don't just ask but let them know what you are planning and the benifits of why they should give permissions. Company's like to know what's in it for them and how they can benifit, not just what you can do or how you or anyone else can benifit.

Good Luck.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

how much $$$ u talking about??

thnx for tips i will be asking soon XD

[GSpector]

Hello elite_hunter_sh3

I think cost (fees) is something you would have to ask UBI. Remember, what YOU have to sell is yourself and your skills.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

<Mod Edit>

[GSpector]

I don't see how you could get in trouble for pics. Only if you distribute especially for the purpose of profit.

Just so you know, it is possible that when you're done, you could still present it to them AFTER you see if they could pay you if they like what they saw.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

ok ill go start on it but now i need all or most of the programs pple use to mod?? anyone have them or recommed some good 1's

[GlobalExplorer]

Hello elite_hunter_sh3.

My advice: forget it. This will be a dissapointment, both financially and from the fact that you probably underestimate the complexity of the source code. If I look at the size of SH3.exe you should realize it's quite a monster - I have alot of experience with C++ and many other programming languages but I would never touch something like that!

I'd rather look at Danger From the Deep, which is opensource or even start a new program from scratch. Setting up a scene in 3D with some nice looking ships in OpenGL or DirectX is pretty easy, it is from there that the real problems begin .. and you will need at least 2-3 really committed people to achieve anything.

http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/gallery.php

[elite_hunter_sh3]

wow danger from the deep has better water modelling then sh3, looks like they use some higher polygon models for the water then sh3 is that shader 2.0??

[GlobalExplorer]

Well I don't think it surpasses SHIII in any way, but it's Open Source and probably could be used for a lot of interesting things like a Destroyer game etc .. intriguing .. If I just had two lives!

I am sure they wouldn't mind new people joining the project, if they will actually contribute something. So maybe you should talk to them.