Please Help with correcting river class

[Mush Martin]

First thanks to serge and neon for their answers to my initial enquiries

I have noticed that sometime in the research porition of the process somebody
got a river class destroyer mixed in with the river class frigate data.

now recognizing the difference may not matter to most
but a river class frigate looks essentially like a black swan
but with the following differences

4" d/p in A turret replaced by hedgehog
4" d'p in C turret replaced by 3" single
aft radar stand moved between main mast and bridge
aft deckhouse reversed so bandstands are aft
remove 4 K guns
Reduce AA suite
now I am still learning to mod and havent yet changed a ship other than to put
a type VII Conning tower on a type IX and swap out some guns, but I would like to correct the rivers can anybody leave me a list of what I need to change when I swapped cfg files for Black Swan and River class the boat changed but the stats in museum etc were all Black swan also I need to know How to change out the guns or remove them assumably in the roster files. as for moving radar and reversing deckhouse I havent any idea where to begin. finally If I do fix it I would like to pack it up and make it available. As the river may be the most underated ship of the Atlantic Campaign.

any help or guidance would be appreciated :-?
with thanks Mush.

[bigboywooly]

Hi Martin
Welcome to Subsim

What is it you are trying to do ?
Clone the Black Swan to create the River class Frigate
Or alter the River class DE to become the Frigate ?

[Mush Martin]

I think that given my limited experience and the high similarity between the real river class and the black swans it would be easier I think to clone the swan to river rather than remodel the game version of the river class DE the only thing missing would be the small cubed DF deck house between the B turret and the bridge with the above listed changes with thanks for taking and interest their BBW

M.M.

[bigboywooly]

No problem MM
Well you can make a copy of the Black Swan folder
Rename all the internal files to River - including in the cfg file
Then you can clone using Pack3d - http://files.filefront.com/P3dAllVersion7z/;6422266;;/fileinfo.html

You can then make the arnament changes through the .eqp file
Altering the text ( museum ) docs to match

( Dont forget to make a copy of the cfg file in the British roster folder -renaming that as you did the others )

The new dat file then really needs hexediting to rename the .tga (skin )file inside to match the new naming convention
Then you can give it different skin to the Black Swan

Hope that helps a bit

[Mush Martin]

this posting thing works great thats exactly what I needed thanks I will take a crack at it a little later if you would be so kind to check back here for any difficulties over the next couple of day's Id appreciate it

thanks again M.M.:p

[bigboywooly]

Am always around :up:
Thats the idea of a forum

Keep us informed how you get on

[Mush Martin]

OK so files are renamed as such and I am now looking at the Eqp file for the changes I need to make Now I Know to set the A Turret to null to remove it however that is the location I need for the Hhog. when I try to put the hedgehog In, should I Just try to use the A01 zone Or do I need to give it a W0? designation if so what number on evarts its W011 is there a zone in the bows for asw weaps? on original game river DE it is W07 and naturally there isnt an Hhog already on BS but one of Null Zones may be it??????? Would using the Game RiverDE eqp file work on the BS model??????

{Key -RiverDE=original game model Destroyer escort
- RiverFF=Project model Frigate
- BSFF=original game model Frigate}

also I have p3d downloaded however its not instinctive to me and I dont entirely understand what I need to do with it Is it to compress for file sharing after Im done?

Further, I know nothing of hexediting and must learn from scratch! will the model work just fine with the BS skin?

M.M.

(ps M.M. was born Burnley Lancashire 1963 , Living in Canada since childhood, Wifes Late Grandfather Captained two flower class and two River Class during WW2, MM is an avid student of pre atomic submersible warfare and asw, and subsims since 8bit nintendo was leading edge)

[Mush Martin]

I think I will leave the reskin as a seperate project for me, however I do want to learn how and I wonder if there is a way to put hull numbers on using a method like the side emblems on the sub? does this already exist or is it even possible?
M.M.:|\\

[bigboywooly]

Ok
The DE River eqp wont be any good as the zones will be in a different place
You can use the A01 zone to try the hedgehog

Pack3d
For cloning purposes best to use version 3 I think
Open pack3d - click on get dat
Point towards your new River frigate dat and open
Then click clone

The model should work with the BS skin for now


When you have cloned you can place into the game and check the ship out in the museum

No the hull numbers are different to subs and will have to be painted as part of the skin
Now the ship uses the skin reversed on one side of the ship so any number would have to be reversable
IE 1001 - 8008 - 1881 - 88 etc

[Mush Martin]

best I could do is maybe HMCS Hallowell but K would be backwards on one side
K-666 would show 999-k more or less then. nonetheless thanks for the help. be back soon. M.M.:oops: Hey I got promoted cool. some day Ill be a big English Kaleun just like you.

[Mush Martin]

when it comes to trying to relocate the radar I would assume I need to get into the zones file and the text editor isnt going to cut it do you know what I need to edit zonefiles. assuming we conquer that problem do you think it would be as simple as reversing the co-ordinates on the deck house bandstand reversal?? M.M.

[bigboywooly]

To relocate the eqp zones will require either some hexediting or if you use the latest version Pack3d you can move the coordinates of an individual item
Trial and error that way
You will have to keep reloading the museum to check out the changes

If you can send me a pic of what you want and your new dat I will take a look
My email is in profile

[Wulfmann]

MM, good idea. This was one of the first big, oops, that ain’t right from out of the box. And, using the Black Swan sloops as a model should be fine and Big is always a big help on these matters.
However, the present River, wrong as it is named, is still a very important ship as it is modeled. It is, in fact worn out DDs from A-H classes that were converted as convoy escorts. As much as what you are doing is great I would hope someone would make a clone, as it is now, and make a DE “A” class (Or “B” or what ever) without any modding required, model wise.
That would add another DE type which would make for more variation in convoy escorts that were the actual escorts. Fleet DDs, as nice as the may look, were not used in this role.
If I have a major disappointment in GWX it is while adding many nice new ships, they did not expand the DE types (making all three Hunt class DE clones would also have been nice, (I know Big, the are EDs:rotfl: ).
When generic classes are used in the RND.mis file it would have been a good idea to have a few to vary.
Still, you are spot on in correcting the River and giving it a proper model.

Wulfmann

[bigboywooly]

Yes it may have been nice to add some more DE
And - not to split hairs - The A - H class are DD anyway
Now we did manage to add some more Frigates :rotfl:
Who knows in time what may be added
Trouble is there are a lot of DD in the game already so a lot of ppl are modelling merchants :up: and missing cruisers
Now with GWX at least you get 1 US cruiser
Gerome is also modelling the Norfolk heavy cruiser

I believe the US Rudderow DE is a beta release in the Ge forums
Its DD\DE\frigates\Corvettes etc from Poland\Netherlands\Russia etc which are in short supply

So lets see how MM gets on
We may have another new addition

[Mush Martin]

I was noticing in my references last night that a Hunt II is a good clone for an Italian Spica class with very little modification. You remember the Italians right. M.M.

[bigboywooly]

Vaguely :rotfl: :rotfl:
Dont know that class of Italian DD so you may be right there

[AG124]

They are indeed somewhat similar, but the Hunt II displaces more than twice as much, and is quite longer as well. Also, the supersturcture would have the be significantly altered, especially the bridge.

[Mush Martin]

as I recall I had been surprised to find my reference indicating the italian ship to be larger and It struck me as odd I will have to go back and check. Do you think any of us will ever make it as far as correcting the Italian or French navies (LOL) M.M.

Further to this I have two references that list different displacements one of approx 1000 ton and one of 675 tons the latter is most likely correct as this is in the main the same size as the larger classes of Italian TB's

[bigboywooly]

Depends
It really needs someone with an interest in those navies to have go at them

[Wulfmann]

The problem with present DDs are making a generic type 4 can add a Tribal or J class or many of them as convoy escorts. I only use named type 4 in the RND so this can not happen.
The other problem is Polish, Yanks or any other are not Brits which were the vast majority of NA escorts. (The Canadians going half way and then changing over to the Brits can not be done or at least not easily and without disappearing mid Atlantic convoys)
The A-H classes that were converted were converted to convoy escorts so classing them as DE would actually be more appropriate for SH3 as they then could be used in the type 3 generic listings. It would be nice to have the 3 Hunt classes, the "A" type converted as well as the GW added US as Brit DE so the DE use could vary more and be the dominate convoy escort.
Then a proper River with the Black Swan and corvettes would better cover the reality of convoy escorting.
Yes, many great new ships in GWX.
I am a TypeVIIC driver in the NA primarily so tweak that area and tend to over emphasize what I would like for it. I also realize many other areas were vastly improved in GWX that type 3s are not as important as they are in the NA.
Wulfmann

[Mush Martin]

I dont really play online just solo My regular sub is a type IXB with a type VIIC/4 conning tower two 105's and two twin 37's this ship is modified in armour and fire power to equal (roughly) a super destroyer or Light cruiser in surface combat
(24/12.5 kts) guns and armour reduced to normal it would just about equal a JC Butler.

when campaigning I upgrade boats as available with a standard loadout and upgrades.

[Wulfmann]

For me it is making it as close to real as I can get it to simulate what a real Kaleun had to deal with.
But, that is me.
The fact is, how you like it is the right way whether or not others agree.
I remember Charlie added 2 15ich guns to his type IXC mid 2005 but I could not figure how to model the 3-4 complete rollovers a U-Boat would do from the recoil!:rotfl:

Wulfmann

[Mush Martin]

actually making it real is what correcting the Rivers is all about I campaign historically
and use scenarios for moddelling and simming MM.

[Mush Martin]

well as these things go it collapsed my museum and I replaced it with vanilla riverDE back into the sea file do I need to do roster simultaneously ??(Yes I went back and reread earlier post,will try again after cloning) also I havent been able to get the hang of cloning it yet it wont do the folder in total and stuff like the cfg file it says cant be cloned.

aside from redundancy what is the purpose of cloning as opposed to making copy?.

MM.:down:

[Mush Martin]

just wanted to see how my signature displayed. MM.:|\\

[Mush Martin]

Incidently I've never downloaded GWX where is there a good summary of the features?.

[fredbass]

Incidently I've never downloaded GWX where is there a good summary of the features?.

The GWX Manual is on this page. Just scroll down to find it.

http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/GWX/

[Mush Martin]

thanks fred I'm gone to get the wife, Later

[bigboywooly]

Its only the dat file that gets cloned
If it isnt it will CTD as there will be an ID conflict with the parent ship

[Mush Martin]

thanks there wooly now it should start at least. MM.

[Mush Martin]

well I'm not sure exactly what I did wrong but now Im getting CTD about a third of the way through the initial gameloading screen all I had done was swap out the nderiver file in sea and taken directly from that file the cfg and put it in british and canadian folders in roster. I undid all this and replaced the file and the cfgs with vanilla versions and it didnt cure the problem. I assume at this point I didnt succesfully clone the dat file and oops although I have a back up of vanilla it seems Ive lost my back up of 1.4 I believe I'll be spending the next hour doing a reinstall and reload of mods.

update : am spending the next hour reinstalling arghh! oh well my bad for poor back up.

[Wulfmann]

MM, I do a complete copy of the data file for each version installed. If I screw up I can simply swap back to the last good data folder. It is also good to back up areas you are working on and date them so how to find them.
I recently installed GWX and made a copy of all the folders in a new data folder so as I mod it I can be sure I have their clean files to revert to.
I am rebuilding all the convoys (RND.mis file)for that so you better believe I saved their original!
We all screw up and often when trying new stuff.
BTW, back in mid 2005, the firt thing I tried to mod was the River class to rename the model "A" class DE and did not know how. If Big was around then he likely would have walked me through it like he has many other things.
I could never have made my tweaks work so well without the help I get here even from guys I am basically saying I want to alter their work because it is not to my liking.
However, some are not alsways friendly like Big.
So, be prepared on occasion to crash dive ALARM!!!!

Wulfmann

[Mush Martin]

Oh well :damn: MM.

[bigboywooly]

Have your file MM
Will look after work mate

[Mush Martin]

whatever it was it was a major Foo Foo , problem survived uninstall forgot to remove latent folders and defrag, once more into the breech dear friends back on this evening MM.

[bigboywooly]

MM you have PM

[Mush Martin]

well as it turns out it wasnt my Foo Foo I believe my Lexmark printer was trying to use my Sh3 to communicate with headquarters and it Interfered with Loading , loading pages on this site and it wouldnt allow me to delete Ubisoft/SilenthunterIII/Data even once I emptied all files as it was using it, the printer was not Identified as the culprit but I have battled LXCats previously and detected the presence in processes and shut it down, subsequent to this I was able to freely delete data file and these pages loaded instantly again on my system. am proceeding with sweep and reinstall and reload and fully expect to be succesfull this time

Caution if you have a lexmark printer educate yourself on what is installed on your drive it runs deep and doesnt get detected by spyware I know of .

I really should take a computer course someday MM.

[bigboywooly]

MM you have PM and a new ship

Well you will do when I have fixed something

[Mush Martin]

does cloning just register the names internally within the file? does it make copy then? or does it do both ( first attempt didnt show an obvious copy) or is there another more mysterious and sinister function that I am unaware of like making a million copies of my sister? MM. :roll:

ps (again) is there a good public domain tutorial on cloning and or hexediting and skinning?.

[bigboywooly]

does cloning just register the names internally within the file? does it make copy then? or does it do both ( first attempt didnt show an obvious copy) or is there another more mysterious and sinister function that I am unaware of like making a million copies of my sister? MM. :roll:

ps (again) is there a good public domain tutorial on cloning and or hexediting and skinning?.

Good Q in the cloning
I know it renames the cam file above that I believe it also changes the digital ID so as not to cause conflict
Sure some one more versed in that could give you an answer

Try a search for skinning - it should bring up something
I dont recall seeing anything on cloning and hexediting

[Mush Martin]

thanks yet again. MM

(relieved about sister thing whew!)

[Mush Martin]

Well for anybody joining in the file conversions are done and the ship exists but still needs a few visual changes at which I have no current skills.
in short I need to delete a radar and reverse the positions of a deckhouse and bandstand. also need to add a small deck house in where there isnt one if possible but this small detail may not be worth it.
any help or advice would be welcome

MM.

[Mush Martin]

I am going to be offline for a day or two to finish reorganizing sh3 toybox.
will work up pics and next steps for when I come back on. and will look in for
pm's and posts MM.

[bigboywooly]

Waiting damage modelling

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6495/riverclassxz3.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3702/screenhunter057ky4.jpg

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9826/nffriverclasssilgl7.jpg

( yes the museum does read 4x 4" - typo :rotfl: )

[Mush Martin]

well First of hall Happy new year to any and all,

Im definetly showing my Newbiness having difficulties with getting imageshack to work everytime I try to upload it tells me file contains no data, I am unable to deduce what I am doing wrong, any body had this problem?

[Mush Martin]

Regarding 4x4 typo Ill fix that once the version with the corrected damage model is available.

Next Question: At some point I am going to have to do the trial and error zone moving thing to
try and add in a second searchlight and move both searchlight zones to the tops (assuming I get the model that far, a Long leap I know!) I dont understand the co ordinate system as it appears in pd3
it is a string does it break down to x,y,z ???

[bigboywooly]

If you use the latset version of pack3d you can see the x,y and z coordinates
Enter the new values
click done
Load up in museum and see

Trial and error

To add a new L zon for another light you will need to hexedit :nope:

[Mush Martin]

although I did find a tutorial on cloning I still havent found one for hexediting

Big whats In your toolbox ? tools that is not necessarily tutorials.

[bigboywooly]

I only have all of Pack3d versions and ultraedit32
Tis all I use

[Mush Martin]

well now that the ship is working I took it out for a spin wow photos to follow show hairaising qualities of this ship. it was fun.

[Mush Martin]

OK for anybody Just Joining Us the story goes like this I had a wish to make a historical correction in the game and expressed it with the help and encouragement of several local hero's of mine. It is happening.

First Ultimate thanks go to BigBoyWooly without whom this ship wouldnt exist for sometime it is largely his work and understanding of whats needed that made it happen

credit also to Von helsching for damage model (I think, I never did confirm this but as sea trials pics will show damage model is fabulous)

and also to Wulfman for encouragement about the worthiness of the project and guidance in getting to know my way around subsim.

below please find the Project Pictures
any support,information,tools and tutorials that will help are needed and appreciated
dont be afraid to leave a reply below. MM

[bigboywooly]

I owe a great deal to Ref as well
My saviour as far as hexediting goes MM

[Mush Martin]

First the River Class DE included in vanilla
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9723/020ha5.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9723/020ha5.jpg)
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7979/021gq0.jpg

next how the River Class FF appeared historically
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8439/022ch3.jpg

The following two pics are Paintshop Renderings of what We are trying for
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/608/023pk3.jpg
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9262/024rc3.jpg

We settled on Altering a BlackSwan Class FF as the best course of action
http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/9035/025tb8.jpg

and the following two are what the Beta looks like
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4289/026ju3.jpg
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/493/027ru6.jpg

the Remaining visual differences are not a disappointment more of a challenge
now that we have a working ship there are only visual tweeks to be done.
and moddelling is going to take some time to learn.

Watch for River Class Sea Trials Thread in near future.

MM.


(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9723/020ha5.jpg)

[Mush Martin]

this is the Sea Trials Teaser shot.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5402/seatrialsteaserba1.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Watch for River Class Sea Trials Thread in near future.

Will def be watching as of now :yep:

[Mush Martin]

You Like that one Huh!

[HundertzehnGustav]

i am not into ships, but, if you people are, i ll gratefully take your words for the truth.

thankl you, and good luck

[Mush Martin]

it all helps thanks. MM

[Mush Martin]

for any body interested what will still need to be done after we get back the ship from damage modelling is the following

-add a 2nd searchlight and move them to the tops
-add in a man basket either side atop the bridge to move them to
-delete large deckhouse they are on or leavit an place bandstands over it
-move lifestations slightly.(forward one at least)
-and although I doubt it correct radar to mast mounted type 271
-finally raise bridgewings and correct ladders from 2nd deck.
-add in small deckhouse w/loop antenna between forward turret and bridge
-and since Im making a wish list here a Bridge Crew

as Observed on the other thread this is going to take quite a bit of time as it is very ambitious and I have no previous moddelling experience. Be patient Gents I have to learn all the techniques first. and then make the changes.

for those interested the ship fights great as is.MM. :|\\