GWX...ships have superhuman vision! They see me before my lookouts see them

[crazypete]

Let me just say this: GWX is fantastic!! Totally new game. :up::up::up:

However.....

Even in 1939, by the time my 3 qualified lookouts, 1 blueman and 1 qualified lookout officer spot a ship on the surface, my sub icon is red.

Last night, I was alerted to the presence of a destroyer 5k out because shells were landing on my submarine.

Now I thought vanilla escorts were near blind and they needed a little vision help.....

..but this is overkill. Subs are small and low in the water. I should be able to see ships before they can see me.

Will this get better when my lookouts strap on some medals or am I stuck with this situation?

[melnibonian]

I think as the experience of your crew increases so will their efficiency. A few medals will help as well. This is a stock and not a GWX bug, but thankfully it doesn't occur so often, so you can still play the game without any real problems.

[Corsair]

Although I haven't used it for ages, I think the color of the icon doesn't indicate if you are detected or not, but how detectable you are ?

[danlisa]

Were you at high TC?

Regarding Night Time - GWX has fixed the Vampire Vision. This means that your crew will not be able to see as far as they could in the day. Yes your crew will get better with promotion/experience.

Edit - My suggestion is to play with the stealth indicator off as it gives unrealistic results.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Let me just say this: GWX is fantastic!! Totally new game. :up::up::up:

However.....

Even in 1939, by the time my 3 qualified lookouts, 1 blueman and 1 qualified lookout officer spot a ship on the surface, my sub icon is red.

Last night, I was alerted to the presence of a destroyer 5k out because shells were landing on my submarine.

Now I thought vanilla escorts were near blind and they needed a little vision help.....

..but this is overkill. Subs are small and low in the water. I should be able to see ships before they can see me.

Will this get better when my lookouts strap on some medals or am I stuck with this situation?

Read the manual regarding real world gunnery and optics. Page 14. :arrgh!: They have more eyeballs and better optics than your bridge crew. The odds are that even a lowly small merchant crew will see you first.

Enemy optics in GWX are very powerful by design.

However, the more watch qualifications you have, the better. Furthermore, as in real life... night-time and bad weather are your best friends... also.. the faster you are going... the more wake the enemy has to spot you.

Surface attacks at night are quite possible...and adviseable... but don't hang around to watch the pretty explosions.

If you are on the surface near enemy ships during broad daylight... you've got problems. :huh:

For some REAL fun... turn off your stealth-o-meter.

If you have the U-boat Commander's Handbook... read it and love it. It actually does help you in-game.

[crazypete]

So I should be surfaced at night only and creeping around at periscope depth during the day.

Not having a snorkel really puts a damper on things. I got too used to roaring around at full speed with the snorkel up.

[melnibonian]

So I should be surfaced at night only and creeping around at periscope depth during the day.

Not having a snorkel really puts a damper on things. I got too used to roaring around at full speed with the snorkel up.
I know what you mean:yep: :yep: GWX is not just eye-candy you see. It's deadly;) :up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

read my post again if you like... edited to include some more good stuff.:|\\

[Martin1813]

Although I haven't used it for ages, I think the color of the icon doesn't indicate if you are detected or not, but how detectable you are ?
Yes, you're right.
It may helps some noob but should be get out after 3 or 4 patrols, maybe less...
and it's not very eye-candy :D

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Although I haven't used it for ages, I think the color of the icon doesn't indicate if you are detected or not, but how detectable you are ?
Yes, you're right.
It may helps some noob but should be get out after 3 or 4 patrols, maybe less...
and it's not very eye-candy :D

From all my testing... it seems to be a combination of how detectable you are ... and how close they are to actually detecting you...

When the icon pops to solid red... they do in fact have you though! :o

[AVGWarhawk]

Stealth meter in my view is just stupid. But, hey, thats me. I'll buy the fact that the merchants/warships had more eyes looking and also an elevated view to spot u-boats. I think the AI are darn good(as created by the GWX team) As far as the vampire vision at night, it has been corrected for sure. I do not see boats 15000m off in the distance anymore...even on a clear night! I think the AI are dead on.

[crazypete]

I've been red on occasions and remained undetected. It must be detectability and not actual detectedness.


Actually, sometimes, I gun to engines to get a reaction out of a destroyer so he'll chase me and we go head to head at 20 kts, I cut the rudder at 500 M and he misses me by a few feet.

Then I set a torpedo for 3.5 m magnetic detonator, fast speed, manual targeting set to shoot straight ahead and get into a flank speed periscope depth dogfight. I crank open my torpedo tube and wait for the destroyer to dogfight himself right in front of me and fire a torpedo under him.

I killed 4 escorts like this before one of them took my conning tower and periscope right off.

Man! The english channel is crazy now.

[JU_88]

I suppose there different factors to consider, an escort watch crew have better visibility that a uboat watch as they have the advantage of elevation. However a uboat has a relativly small profile and doesnt produce a smoke stack, so its a close call as to who would spot who first, of course once you throw radar in to the equasion, its a whole differnt ball game. :hmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

What is hard to create in computer games is REAL human action/reaction. There is always that human factor that just cannot be modelled no matter how hard you try!!! What has been created is about is close as it will get. Now go sink a ship you nancy boys.

[MRV]

I dont know, I sunk lots of ships in GWX while being on surface.

U-Boats have a lower silouhette than most surface ships of course, so in early war you can sneak close to them on the surface. Note that warships in later years have radar.

I good fix of GWX is that AI doesn't automatically know where you are if torpedoed. I noticed this on merchants outfittet with searchlights......BOOM....and immediately spotlighted me....

GWX now has fixed this and this is also some kind of human factor speaking of the panic thats caused by a sudden torp hit on a ship at night. (imagine getting waken up by an earthquake at 2 am.."aaahh....wtf????")

[Kpt. Lehmann]

No ffense to anyone... but I flatly disagree that the AI visual detection is uber... or "over the top."

Six months of research and testing went into this one area alone in GWX.

Also, if you are getting very close in broad daylight without being seen in the surface... I start to suspect that players may have changed their files... which is fine. To each his own.

More than just the optics are dealt with concerning the visual detection in GWX... speed/wake and surface area (aspect ratio) exposed are important factors as well.

Again, page 14 in the manual will explain much.

[ref]

I suppose there different factors to consider, an escort watch crew have better visibility that a uboat watch as they have the advantage of elevation. However a uboat has a relativly small profile and doesnt produce a smoke stack, so its a close call as to who would spot who first, of course once you throw radar in to the equasion, its a whole differnt ball game. :hmm:

I live in a town by the sea, and with a glass sea (no waves or very small ones), you can spot a zodiac type boat at 3 or more km bare eyes, sometimes is not the size of the object, but it's reflect/color properties in contrast with the ocean, the same applies to planes, depending on the circumstances you can spot an airplane at 10 km or more because it's reflections.

Ref

[Sailor Steve]

Good points, ref. Also it should be noted that the human eye is more apt to notice movement than to see an actual object. Part of the 'reflection' of a boat is its wake, and we are more likely to see the discrepancy of an airplane's movement before we would see the plane itself.

[sergbuto]

But smoke on horizon beats any optics.

[ref]

But smoke on horizon beats any optics.

No doubt about that, you're looking at a 30 mts high dark column against a bright background, what I don't know is how (and if) the game takes into account the particles, on the sensors you can adjust the minimum size of an object to be detected, but does this value includes the particles?, and what happen if you reduce the particles in video settings, the smoke is harder to detect?

Ref

[Sailor Steve]

But smoke on horizon beats any optics.
On a clear day submarines should have an advantage in spotting, but the main question is how close is close? How far away should an escort spot you? In AOD I usually closed to about 5000 meters before diving. Same with SHIII. When I checked out NYGM I was a little upset that they saw me at 7000 meters in the "Happy Times" mission.

The reality? I don't know. And I would love to find out the truth.:hmm:

[clayton]

I agree, the AI seems to see you far to easy during the happy times! There have been times when I have been submerged awaiting a Convoy when I have been detected from far out and the excort races ahead to depth charge. And no, my periscope is not up or am I leaving some 6knot wake. Also, the U-Boat handbook was written in 1942 with the current version, or the one we read today, is a new edition circa 1943. Alot had changed since the happy times of 40 - 41. On the subject of Radar, there were only 30 escorts in Sept 41 who had the new thing called RADAR. They were not only new and troublesome, but they did not have enough technicians to even maintain them. So, my point being, I believe the developers made the game more challanging to satisfy your average gamer; not your hardcore simmer. I just wonder if these areas are hard coded???

NSDQ

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I agree, the AI seems to see you far to easy during the happy times! There have been times when I have been submerged awaiting a Convoy when I have been detected from far out and the excort races ahead to depth charge. And no, my periscope is not up or am I leaving some 6knot wake. Also, the U-Boat handbook was written in 1942 with the current version, or the one we read today, is a new edition circa 1943. Alot had changed since the happy times of 40 - 41. On the subject of Radar, there were only 30 escorts in Sept 41 who had the new thing called RADAR. They were not only new and troublesome, but they did not have enough technicians to even maintain them. So, my point being, I believe the developers made the game more challanging to satisfy your average gamer; not your hardcore simmer. I just wonder if these areas are hard coded???

NSDQ

Your post is rather disjointed and mashed together so it is difficult to address. (no offense meant) However, to answer your question... if you are submerged then you were detected by other means... not by visual detection.

Regarding the U-boat Commander's Handbook... we are talking about the same book regardless.

Which developers do you refer to? What mods are you using if any?

[ref]

or am I leaving some 6knot wak

If you're doing 6 knots submerged it's sure they can hear you from a long distance...


Ref

[clayton]

Sorry for the post! I'm not a regular poster so I tend to write all of the things (issues) I've compiled! I'm using GWX and am currently loving it. The 39 - 40 war is far superior with your mod than stock. That being said, my above post is a response to this whole uber escort thing. It seems that the escorts are alittle to tough; with all mods, not just GWX! Again, I believe the developers did this for playability and not for diehard simmers. As far as the 6 knot thing, I've had escorts break from a convoy and zero in on me from the horizon while I'm at 30 - 40 ft running about 2 knots - and this during 41. Thats just not correct! BTW I'm a Paramedic also!!! :cool:

NSDQ

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Sorry for the post! I'm not a regular poster so I tend to write all of the things (issues) I've compiled! I'm using GWX and am currently loving it. The 39 - 40 war is far superior with your mod than stock. That being said, my above post is a response to this whole uber escort thing. It seems that the escorts are alittle to tough; with all mods, not just GWX! Again, I believe the developers did this for playability and not for diehard simmers. As far as the 6 knot thing, I've had escorts break from a convoy and zero in on me from the horizon while I'm at 30 - 40 ft running about 2 knots - and this during 41. Thats just not correct! BTW I'm a Paramedic also!!! :cool:

NSDQ

Roger that no worries.

So what you mean to tell me is that your posts looklikemyhandwrittenpatientcarereports! My handwriting gets worse every year I keep doing that job LOL. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Funny thing is... one minute I hate my job... next minute my job is depressing... and occasionally I love my job. Argh... makes ya feel manic sometimes.

At any rate... are you forgetting to order silent running? It could also be that the escorts are just doing their programmed sweeps and got lucky with you. I've never had a problem evading the escorts (when I had good depth under my keel) as long as I was prepared to give up the target on occasion.

Also, if you are close... the more sensitive to sound they get. Sea state also affects their accuity... calm seas are a death trap.

If the sea is calm, I'd recommend stalking them at a (beyond visual) distance until nightfall... then sweep around to get in front of them... and wait.

Just don't hang around to watch the pretty explosions.

Keep playing at it.

If the demand is high enough I can release an "intermediate" level sensors mod to tone a few things down... but not all. Adjusting the sensors is like adjusting a stero equalizer... You can't just alter one and get it right.

(Speaking of work... I have to get ready soon.)

[clayton]

I'll keep at it! What the hell else am I going to do! :doh:

NFTR

NSDQ

[hocking]

Were you sitting motionless, or moving at under 3 knots, while at parascope depth when the escorts spoted you? Keep in mind that your tower will definitely break the surface when you are traveling at under 3 knots, or sitting motionless, while at parascope depth. In fact, traveling at around 3 knots a parascope depth will throw a spray of salt water that looks like a whale playing around on the surface of the water. I tested it today, and sure enough, very very noticeable to anyone around.

If this was the case, this may have been what they saw and went after. I have no idea what distance you were from the escorts when they discovered you, but this may be relevant if they discovered you from a short distance out.

[Paajtor]

I noticed that my watch-crew (1st GWX-patrol) is less experienced than myself, when it comes to locating ships.
They always call out seconds later than I can....which I like! :D

That is with a watch-officer AND a watch-pettyofficer with the watch-tag on duty, btw...and boosted sailors on the remaining slots.

It makes me feel they need the Kaleun himself on the bridge, to judge in difficult situations, know what I mean?
So far, the GWX-compromise (it's always a compromise, ain't it?) feels about right.
I think a few more patrols are needed, to see for myself if it's spot-on.

[dean_acheson]

I can't wait to try a surface night attack on a convoy, it has NEVER worked before...

[AVGWarhawk]

I can't wait to try a surface night attack on a convoy, it has NEVER worked before...

I think it will work now. I went by a destroyer at 500m on a clear night. Honest to God he was going dead west and I was going dead east. The destroyer went sailing on by like he was on his way to the fishing grounds...not a care in the world. So after we passed at 500m I let him have it with my stern torpedo:yep: . Blow the props right off it. He never saw me low in the water close enough to touch! Last time he be lollygagging in the straight. I think you can get into a convoy and nail a few undetected!

[melnibonian]

I can't wait to try a surface night attack on a convoy, it has NEVER worked before...
I've encountered a convoy off the coast of Belfast in December 1940. Perfectly calm sea, dark night and 6 DDs searching for U-Boats. Due to my position I could do only one attack, so I went to decks awash in 7m (VIIB) and I set ahead flank in a perpendicular course to the convoy. I was about 14Km away and I did pass through the destroyers on the side of the convoy. As I was still away I fired 4 torpedoes from 4-3.5Km. I had four hits and two Pyros and a Large Merchant went down in a ball of fire. After the torpedoes were fired I went deep, set silent running and left the area as I was out of torpedoes.

[LeafsFan]

After the torpedoes were fired I went deep, set silent running and left the area as I was out of torpedoes.

From that far out, Isn't the historical tactic a 180 turn and haul ass out of there on the surface, a la Kretschmer, Schepke, et al?

HB

[Subwolf]

Let me just say this: GWX is fantastic!! Totally new game. :up::up::up:

However.....

Even in 1939, by the time my 3 qualified lookouts, 1 blueman and 1 qualified lookout officer spot a ship on the surface, my sub icon is red.

Last night, I was alerted to the presence of a destroyer 5k out because shells were landing on my submarine.

Now I thought vanilla escorts were near blind and they needed a little vision help.....

..but this is overkill. Subs are small and low in the water. I should be able to see ships before they can see me.

I agree, that is totally unrealistic. A U-boat at night, specially in winter time when the Atlantic nights were pitch dark, was more or less invisible until the radar was introduced. It could even move up and down inside convoys and they couldn't see it. The allies had to use searchlights and starshells when trying to locate it on the surface.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Let me just say this: GWX is fantastic!! Totally new game. :up::up::up:

However.....

Even in 1939, by the time my 3 qualified lookouts, 1 blueman and 1 qualified lookout officer spot a ship on the surface, my sub icon is red.

Last night, I was alerted to the presence of a destroyer 5k out because shells were landing on my submarine.

Now I thought vanilla escorts were near blind and they needed a little vision help.....

..but this is overkill. Subs are small and low in the water. I should be able to see ships before they can see me.

I agree, that is totally unrealistic. A U-boat at night, specially in winter time when the Atlantic nights were pitch dark, was more or less invisible until the radar was introduced. It could even move up and down inside convoys and they couldn't see it. The allies had to use searchlights and starshells when trying to locate it on the surface.

Very well Subwolf. You are always quite content to point out any flaw you can find in GWX.

If it is indeed broken, how about you offer some coding suggestions on how to fix things?

Looking at all your previous postings... It looks to me like you are simply on a GW/GWX witch hunt.

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe the AI are as tweeked and realistic as they can get. Like I said a few posts back....destroyer, 500m off my port on a clear night...did not see me. 500m dude. Christ if it were real world he would have smelled the alcohol on our breath. It is almost the throw of the dice weather they see you or not.

The beauty of this mod is you can always take it off the hard drive and go play a flight sim but then again, there will something wrong with that sim because, well, we are all professionals at everything:doh:

[clayton]

It's all give and take! I finally did a 42 - 43 patrol and let me tell you, GWX is about realistic as you can get. It's just as I expected doing a patrol in late 42 should have been. Silent running IS the key! That being said, I dont think GWX or any other mod has been able to reproduce the Happy Times of 39 - 40. Just more single ships floating about. So, well done GWX! :up:

NSDQ

[sergbuto]

That being said, I dont think GWX or any other mod has been able to reproduce the Happy Times of 39 - 40.
Why do you need a mod for that? The Happy Times are reproduced quite well in a stock version of the game.

[clayton]

I write before I speak! Single ships were all about the Happy Times! It's the convoy's and the uber escorts that I have a problem with. Uber escorts in 42 - 44 ok but in 39 - 40 no! I dont believe that the vanillia SH3 had weaker escorts during 39 - 40 and GWX is a far better product than stock SH3 anyway. Can't bait me, dude!!! :D

Peace!

NSDQ

[sergbuto]

I dont believe that the vanillia SH3 had weaker escorts during 39 - 40...
Whatever...

[clayton]

Ouch, Man!

[Subwolf]

Very well Subwolf. You are always quite content to point out any flaw you can find in GWX.

If it is indeed broken, how about you offer some coding suggestions on how to fix things?

Looking at all your previous postings... It looks to me like you are simply on a GW/GWX witch hunt.

I'm sorry if you look at it that way. I have only pointed out a couple of things that might be fixed in a patch, to make the mod even better. I don't think that any of you in the team claim to release a perfect mod, and that is not expected either. Any problems can only be solved if lightened up in this forum.

But it's interesting to see that if a user brings up something that might be not so good about GWX it seems like it's not very appreciated around here. I don't understand why, because this is the only way to deal with these matters which the betatesters didn't catch. The whole point is to get the final mod as real as it gets, isn't it.

You shouldn't take any criticism of GWX as an insult Kpt. Lehmann, you and your team have done a great job, no question about that.

[AVGWarhawk]

Very well Subwolf. You are always quite content to point out any flaw you can find in GWX.

If it is indeed broken, how about you offer some coding suggestions on how to fix things?

Looking at all your previous postings... It looks to me like you are simply on a GW/GWX witch hunt.
I'm sorry if you look at it that way. I have only pointed out a couple of things that might be fixed in a patch, to make the mod even better. I don't think that any of you in the team claim to release a perfect mod, and that is not expected either. Any problems can only be solved if lightened up in this forum.

But it's interesting to see that if a user brings up something that might be not so good about GWX it seems like it's not very appreciated around here. I don't understand why, because this is the only way to deal with these matters which the betatesters didn't catch. The whole point is to get the final mod as real as it gets, isn't it.

You shouldn't take any criticism of GWX as an insult Kpt. Lehmann, you and your team have done a great job, no question about that.


Sometimes it is not what you say but how you say it. Constructive criticism is always helpful. But you know, there is so much GREAT about GWX that any little nit pick(not specifically you subwolf) will not be heard from me. Unless it is something grossly wrong, minor issues will not be added by me. But hey, thats just me.:smug:

[crazypete]

So the searchlight analogy for sonar is right on as I discovered last night.

39'....leaving scapa and much sunken ships behind (I stop through there every patrol), 1 rear torp left. I see a destroyer cruising along so I let him have it and he goes down and oh my goodness....half the royal navy shows up.

I have 3 ships zooming around dropping DC's all over. I go down to the bottom at 72m and lay there and they never seem to loose me. I creep at 1 knot...they still find me. I creep and turn. They still circle above me.

Finally, I go to periscope depth to set up a ramming run and suddenly everyone looses sight of me and sails off. Still silent running and 1 knot.

Wierd...

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't know why everyone seems to be having an issue with AI tracking. I lost a destroyer and armed trawler attempting to get into scapa. Took about an hour and I silently slipped away. Early 1940. I understand they were not that good early on and thus far that is what I have experienced.

[HunterICX]

Very well Subwolf. You are always quite content to point out any flaw you can find in GWX.

If it is indeed broken, how about you offer some coding suggestions on how to fix things?

Looking at all your previous postings... It looks to me like you are simply on a GW/GWX witch hunt.
I'm sorry if you look at it that way. I have only pointed out a couple of things that might be fixed in a patch, to make the mod even better. I don't think that any of you in the team claim to release a perfect mod, and that is not expected either. Any problems can only be solved if lightened up in this forum.

But it's interesting to see that if a user brings up something that might be not so good about GWX it seems like it's not very appreciated around here. I don't understand why, because this is the only way to deal with these matters which the betatesters didn't catch. The whole point is to get the final mod as real as it gets, isn't it.

You shouldn't take any criticism of GWX as an insult Kpt. Lehmann, you and your team have done a great job, no question about that.

We dont bite the people who disagree...but we gave you guys a manual
and what does a manual do? It explains things. if you dont read it , but catched that the AI sensors have been modificated. dont be a bloody crazy kaleun thats going to try to have a boarding party. read the manual on how this has been modified and THEN try it out for urself. then you will see...it works how it supposed to be working.

some of us are getting tired of answering the questions, what have been handled in the manual. its 182 pages big....now if you dont read it because its too long..well dont..we dont force you...but if ur like ''mmm I want to try this out if it has been modified....'' be smart and peek into the manual and see if its been explained there.

its like you subwolf getting a brand new type of plane...what have you to do first?
Right , read the manual. you cant just jump in and pretend ur in your own 737 right?

also , for Lehmann responce I can clarify that one. if you go back one page, you see he explained it. and refered to the manual.
but you just yell ''BANG! unrealistic, well How so? did you try it out urself, what did you exactly do? what speeds where you going, what speed was the convoy going, weather state? how much wind. how close where you to the enemy, and what type of ship was the enemy? and what year?

if ur declaring something UNREALISTIC , explain why and tell us what you did. then we can say its true or what you where doing wrong. its one of the both things that can help us fixing it and the rest to enjoy it.
simple as that m8,

still! you still have to be carefull as a Kaleun, never be overconvident

basic rules:

Read&Learn
Try it out
still a flaw? or think it is
Report.

NOT:

Try it out
Report a Flaw

[wetgoat]

On my last patrol I was spotted by a lone small cargo,at dusk with the sun behind him, in very heavy seas, from so far away I could barely see him. I thought, ''I ain't liking this''. He got away. Later, same night, same patrol, same storm, destroyer appears out of the fog less than 400m from me. I'm thinking ''yep, I'm dead meat now'' HE NEVER SAW ME! Just like it should be, sometimes you get spotted, sometimes you don't. Seems to come down to ''luck of the draw''. I'm ok with that. I'm sure the watch on that small cargo recieved a medal for spotting us, thereby saving his ship from distruction. The watch on that destroyer also recieved a medal, but it was from my crew , not his!