Thinking Aloud About Tactics

[SeaQueen]

Grumble... grumble... grumble...

I keep playing KILO scenarios. It's the same thing every time: approach a fast moving strike group and bag a high value unit (either a CVN or an LHD). I keep trying to wedge myself between the screens and the high value units, shoot, go deep, pop up and shoot some more. I'm beginning to think this is a bad tactic, because I get killed every time. The thing is, I can't think of a good reason why.

It seems like the only viable option is to actually avoid getting in front of anyone, come in from a far offset angle and shoot from behind. Anything else is suicide.

[Dr.Sid]

They can only detect you with active sonar (if you go 5kts). To lower this chance, face pingers directly to minimize reflective area. Do some course alternations to get better TMA, since you will use only one sensor (sphere). But stay at pingers average heading +- 10 degrees, +-30 at maximum.
Start shooting at escorts, no matter what torpedoes you use. You just want them to react. They will evade and will break formation. Then attack target with best torpedoes you have. You can also turn sideway for a while to get tracks from the other sensor array. Sometimes the target will also react on torpedoes targeted on escorts, and you should notice that.

There is no reason for going deep. Situation awareness is more important.
You can go deep after the attack, or when there is a layer. But layer only works at some distance. When you hear the pings, they can hear returns.
When running away, again, point your tail directly at pingers. It will be much harder to see you for them.

Shoot at escorts in the moment target is safely in range. Wakehomers are great for chasing escorts (and killing them too), but for target i prefer passive mode. Wakehomers tends to follow ANY wake, so sometimes it is hard to make them hit the ship you want. Wireguided torpedoes are even better, and kilo's tests are pretty usable for that.

Also if you see escorts are runnings fast, which they will when evading and also when returning to the formation, you can assume they can't hear you at all.

Watch for the helos. Do EWR and scope scan before the attack. They won't be able to launch them during the attack most probably, but surviving escorts will launch them for sure later. You should not be there at that time however.

Kilo has however really too few torpedoes for such tasks. You may try to make perfect shot with wakehomers at the target. Make perfect solution, choose ideal activation point .. take evasion into account .. then fire & forget. This is more likely Kilo tactic.

[SeaQueen]

They can only detect you with active sonar (if you go 5kts).

The geometry of the problem is such that against a CSG or ESG going 15-20kts, though, you will usually need to go faster than that in order to get within torpedo range.

Also, why bother with sonar at all? I have periscope and ESM which I can see further with.

Start shooting at escorts, no matter what torpedoes you use.

I tried that and it always turns out badly. I usually get one escort but he has friends.

You just want them to react.

They do! With VLA! :-)


Kilo has however really too few torpedoes for such tasks. You may try to make perfect shot with wakehomers at the target.

I don't think so. Bare in mind, if you manage to sink a CVN or LHD, you've just inflicted a 9/11 sized blow to the US forces. It can definitely be done with what one has. It's also worth tremendous risk because the loss of one of these assets might very well mean the end of the war. I mean if the conflict had less than the national survival of the US at stake, then the government might very well say, "Oh well... I guess you get XXXX, good fight. 3000 Marines really isn't worth it."

[Dr.Sid]

I mean Kilo is not good for killing both target and escorts. Not enough fishies. Even Akula has full hands of work. Kilo could score on the target, but dealing with the escorts is just relying on luck.

Missile torpedoes are pretty good. I'd say you have no chance against those. Attacking group with missile torpedoes launchers with one Kilo is suicide. Even attacking one ship with that capability is risky.

[SeaQueen]

I'd say you have no chance against those. Attacking group with missile torpedoes launchers with one Kilo is suicide. Even attacking one ship with that capability is risky.

Gosh... you have very extreme opinions. I wouldn't go that far. I sank an LHD, damaged an LSD and a DDG this afternoon. I had to play the scenario four times to succeed, but eventually I pulled it off. There's no reason why it might also have turned out with two platforms sunk, an LHD and a DDG or CG would have been ideal. Better luck next time I suppose.

I don't think that going against any platform is necessarily suicide for any other platform. The hard part is figuring out what to do.

I wouldn't try to sink every ship in the strike group. That would be extremely difficult and you're right, I don't think I'd have enough torpedoes to do it, but that's okay. Sinking an LHD, damaging an LSD and a DDG constitutes a potentially war winning loss for the USN and 9/11 scale destruction. I think I can call that sufficient mehem for one afternoon's wargaming.

[OneShot]

To have even a chance against a CVBG for example you need one crucial element before everything else and thats first class intelligence ... you need to know when they are at a given point. Without that, trying to go up against such a target with a SSK is like playing russian roulette with a semiautomatic.

Lets assume you have that intelligence, there are in my eyes two options.

Option 1

Lay in ambush waiting for the target. If its a CVBG for example let the screens run over you and go for the carrier. Once you shot your fish try to get away, but the chances for that are not to bright.

Option 2

Deploy one or more CAPTORS programmed for the high value target at the location where the target will be and pray your intel and the tech works. If everything works as planned you will get the target without risking your own ass.

Btw. I think Patrick Robinson described Option 2 (with the addition of a Nuclear Warhead) in Nimitz Class.

There might be other options if you have a SSK that can go fast and silent for longer periods of time (like the U212 class) but for the sake of the argument lets assume we dont have that available.

Cheers
OS

[Linton]

Have you looked in the soviet naval tactics book by Milan Vego?The best book i have seen is Submarine command by Ben Bryant for discussing some aspects of attacking in an ssk.

[Kapitan]

ISBN number of that book linton ?

Also what else do you wish to discuss?

[Dr.Sid]

Hey again .. here we talk about DW world. No captors .. ans AFAIK no chance of them runing over you without noticing you're there.

If you get near group protected by destroyers with missile torpedo, I don't see an option. They will detect you sooner or later. And they can kill you just a seconds after that. Akula could send torpedo to each escort to keep them busy, but kilo can't do that (and also kill the target).

[goldorak]

What is a CAPTOR ? :hmm:

[XabbaRus]

CAPTOR is a MK46 tethered to the sea bed, releases on hearing a target that matches a database.

[goldorak]

CAPTOR is a MK46 tethered to the sea bed, releases on hearing a target that matches a database.

Ah, to be effective it requires beforehand knowledge of where your target is going to pass.
Don't know how useful it can be in real life scenarios.

[Linton]

Kap which book do you want the isbn of?A kilo really is the wrong platform to go against a csg with and I am surprised that SeaQueen has not realised this or is just playing with the limited choice of DW.
A kilo is a barrier weapon.The USSR seemed to have a weapon for every different situation.They went for an Oscar to take out a CSG not a kilo!The latter is more of a 1v1 weapon not something you want to be in when your opposition is a lot of 30kt+ffg/dg armed with nuclear asrocs.Trying to take on a convoy in a diesel was ok in WW2 when most of the hunters barely went faster than you and their weapons were short range.The type XXI could easily outrun their hunters for short periods.
After WW2 there was a trend towards fast SSK ,notably the peroxide powered boats that were usurped by the SSN.There was however a corresponding increase in speed from the hunters as well.The kilo was never meant to be a fast submarine-silent and quiet like an alley mugger is a better description of it.
SQ you will get to take out the hvu in a Kilo but you will die every time doing it!
The whole argument against the kilo covers the post war history of the ssk and the soviets understood thir limitations!

[timmyg00]

Bare in mind, if you manage to sink a CVN or LHD, you've just inflicted a 9/11 sized blow to the US forces. It can definitely be done with what one has. It's also worth tremendous risk because the loss of one of these assets might very well mean the end of the war. Any country that would want to deliver such a decisive blow might send more than one Kilo into such a situation... sounds like a good co-op mission.

TG

[SeaQueen]

Any country that would want to deliver such a decisive blow might send more than one Kilo into such a situation... sounds like a good co-op mission.

It depends on what you mean by sending more than one. Just because they sent more than one doesn't mean they'll be acting together in coordination. As I've said before, a single submarine skillfully handled can certainly sink an LHD or CVN.

You might also send out a group of submarines to fill a large area so that the strike group the submarines intend to attack is more likely to be found. If a sub finds the strike group he might send a message back to headquarters (since it's unknown if the other subs are capable of communicating, they can't send it directly to them), and then begin his attack.

I'm not sure I'd want to concentrate a group of subs in too small an area though because it means that if one detects one, one is more likely to detect all of them and at that point they all get smacked. The other thing is that it compouds the big handicap of KILOs: they're slow and can't search a big area quickly.

The other vessels, once they get the message that the strike group was sighted at a particular location at a particular time, moving at a particular speed and course might then move to attack it, if they're in range they might even fire cruise missiles at it but by that point, the initial submarine's attack is most likely over.

[ASWnut101]

Im not too sure if it is even possible today, with the invention of AEGIS the threat of cruise missiles is very low, plus (I have not heard this from any of you yet) Standard carrier battle group formation ALWAYS includes 2 (sometimes 1) SSN's, Los Angeles Class for the U.S.

The SSNs virtually eliminate the threat of SSK intrusion (except maby for a 212 or a Go(a)tland, but even then once the SSK fires, it will give itself away) I think the possibility of an SSK killing a CVN or LHD is VERY low, and getting lower because of advancing technology.

[SeaQueen]

Im not too sure if it is even possible today, with the invention of AEGIS the threat of cruise missiles is very low

Maybe... all this depends on things like how many you shoot, what kinds of missiles they are, etc. AEGIS is powerful, but it is not a magic cruise missile shield.


plus (I have not heard this from any of you yet) Standard carrier battle group formation ALWAYS includes 2 (sometimes 1) SSN's, Los Angeles Class for the U.S.


What things say on paper and how things actually work are two different things.

Just because it says there's a 688 in a CSG doesn't mean that he's RIGHT THERE in the formation. He might be quite a substantial distance away from the CSG, he might even have been sent into the area of operations days in advance, covertly paving the way, gathering intelligence, making cruise missile strikes or assuming a blocking position in critical chokepoints.


The SSNs virtually eliminate the threat of SSK intrusion (except maby for a 212 or a Go(a)tland, but even then once the SSK fires, it will give itself away)


I don't see that it's impossible for the SSK to get past an SSN, and if the SSK has fired, then he's essentially done his job right? Afterwards isn't really important from the US perspective. Then it's just a matter of how effective the torpedoes are. That's not really the submarines fault, though, if it employs them smartly. The CVN or LHD might still luck out and somehow survive, but it'd still most likely be substantially damaged. That'd be almost as good.


I think the possibility of an SSK killing a CVN or LHD is VERY low, and getting lower because of advancing technology.

I don't know how likely it is, but even if it was unlikely the high payoff for a nation in conflict with the US would almost certainly make the attempt worthwhile. The possibility of success enables them to hold at risk any forces operating anywhere enemy subs are known to be operating.

[SeaQueen]

If you get near group protected by destroyers with missile torpedo, I don't see an option. They will detect you sooner or later. And they can kill you just a seconds after that.

It can be done. It's not easy, but it can be done.


Akula could send torpedo to each escort to keep them busy, but kilo can't do that (and also kill the target).

So a KILO has to do it by being sneaky, striking what it wants, and then running.

[SeaQueen]

Have you looked in the soviet naval tactics book by Milan Vego?

Not yet, no. It's been sitting in my boss's bookshelf for a while now, though. I'm thinking I need to borrow it. Ugh... so much to read. I'll have to put it in the queue some time after I finish the current book on ancien regime Europe and the public sphere.


The best book i have seen is Submarine command by Ben Bryant for discussing some aspects of attacking in an ssk.

Does it have lots of diagrams, charts, numbers and calculations? I like that.

[SeaQueen]

A kilo is a barrier weapon.The USSR seemed to have a weapon for every different situation.

Exactly. It's intended for access denial. That's what I use them for. You pre-position them someplace, and then wait for strike groups to run over them. In this sense, a KILO is sort of like an intelligent, mobile, mine field. That's fine though, they can sink ships.


They went for an Oscar to take out a CSG not a kilo!


Right, but they had a little bit of a different spin on things. The big limitation of the KILO is not it's weapons load, but it's speed. That forces a KILO to be constrained by the limiting lines of approach of the target in order for it to successfully execute it's attack. That's exactly what makes it an interesting tactical problem, because you have to really think about the maneuvering within a limited set of space while not getting too close to the screening warships.

The Oscar, on the other hand, being a nuke, doesn't have to deal with that problem as much. It's ability to maintain high speeds for long periods of time means it doesn't have to wait for the strike group to come to it, but can be more aggressive. It just needs the word on when to shoot it's missiles.


The latter is more of a 1v1 weapon not something you want to be in when your opposition is a lot of 30kt+ffg/dg armed with nuclear asrocs.

Nobody has nuclear ASROCs anymore.


SQ you will get to take out the hvu in a Kilo but you will die every time doing it!


FOR THE GLORY OF THE MOTHERLAND!!! :D

Actually it's not that bad. You just have to be slinky and willing to pick your fights. You can't be like, "Oh! there's a DDG I better shoot him." It's more like, "Oh.. there's a DDG, I better keep my distance." The KILO v. fast moving strike group problem requires a much cooler player.

[timmyg00]

You might also send out a group of submarines to fill a large area so that the strike group the submarines intend to attack is more likely to be found. If a sub finds the strike group he might send a message back to headquarters (since it's unknown if the other subs are capable of communicating, they can't send it directly to them), and then begin his attack. That would be my favored approach, were I the OPFORCOM...

I'm not sure I'd want to concentrate a group of subs in too small an area though because it means that if one detects one, one is more likely to detect all of them and at that point they all get smacked. Agreed!

TG

[Linton]

Submarine Command by Ben Bryant was originally published as One Man Band in 1958.Being a real fan of the RN submarine service i have both books!It is largely a book of his wartime memoirs but it does contain a chapter he calls technical interlude in which he describes penetrating a screen and getting into a firing position.This book is based on WW2 submarines and straight running torpedoes.It has some diagrams but no complex formulae.Bryant was sinking ships by eye not by a tactical computer.Some of his methods can be gleaned from the rest of the text.For basic skimmer sinking it is a good read.

[Linton]

http://www.mors.org/awards/mor/2002.pdf
This is an article called the Diesel submarine flaming datum problem.
If you can find it there is another article in the NPS library written by a Hellenic Navy officer about attacking in a diesel.It is quite old though but you can find a copy on the net.

[XabbaRus]

SeaQueen I really enjoy your scenarios. I wish you would make more or publish the ones you have. Bill would always be happy to host them or you could do your own site with theory. That could be fun.

[SeaQueen]

SeaQueen I really enjoy your scenarios. I wish you would make more or publish the ones you have. Bill would always be happy to host them or you could do your own site with theory. That could be fun.

Thank you. Honestly, I have to be careful with what I publish, though. I don't want to break any agreements or laws. This is the problem when wargames become your profession and you hobby...

The scenario we're talking about is just the NATO EXWAR Exercise scenario I made, or variations on it. The slides that go with it should have sufficient information for you to build your own, so you're not just constrained to doing the same thing in the Norwegian Sea. You could exeriment with lots of other places. Really, it's a pretty generic scenario. I have to say, it's become my favorite scenario. It plays in an afternoon, it's as realistic as I can make a DW scenario, it plays a little bit different every time, and it's extremely challenging without being impossible.

[Palindromeria]

Grumble.It seems like the only viable option is to actually avoid getting in front of anyone, come in from a far offset angle and shoot from behind. Anything else is suicide.

i have a kilo (lin san liu) vs US cv group combat mission that ive been running now and then for a coupla months now.

i concur with your initial assesment.

i quickly decided that 2nd attack was almost always pointless.

i prefer to fire the 1 salvo of 6 and run like hell during the precious few moments the enemy is occupied trying to evade my torps. Sinking the cv AND surviving is a rarity.

if i attack a second time in this scenario, it leads directly to my demise.:dead:

[SeaQueen]

i have a kilo (lin san liu) vs US cv group combat mission that ive been running now and then for a coupla months now.

Oh interesting! I was going to put one out soon. People seemed to enjoy the Expeditionary Strike Group one, so I figured that a Carrier Strike Group (CSG) scenario would be a logical extension. :D

Btw, I finally found a situation where it was advantageous to shoot my way in. I made a mistake on my maneuvering board and ended up choosing a course such that my CPA to a DDG was less than ~2Nmi. At 3Nmi, I realized I was going to be detected shortly by one of the screens so I shot 6 SET-53 torpedoes. 4 of them hit. While the DDG wasn't sunk, it was out of action, which is good enough for me.

Having left a flaming datum, I ran for the center of the formation and shot my wakehomers at the CVN. Ta dah! :rock:

i quickly decided that 2nd attack was almost always pointless.

It depends. The other day I shot a salvo and some of the torpedoes hit the shotgun ship and not the aircraft carrier, so I shot the second salvo. I figure if I have 'em I'm shooting them. It's not like I get bonus points for using fewer torpedoes. If I'm lucky I might get a combat logistics ship (ideally) or a surface combattant.

i prefer to fire the 1 salvo of 6 and run like hell during the precious few moments the enemy is occupied trying to evade my torps. Sinking the cv AND surviving is a rarity.

I have yet to get killed in the improved KILO. In the export one that's a different story, but the improved one I do a lot better in. What happens with me frequently is that I shoot and whiff. If you figure on a CSG clipping along at ~20kts then the space between the limiting lines of approach is quite narrow. Since there's not really any way to make up time and try to catch up with a short burst of speed, it's pretty easy to put one's self in a bad position to take a shot, and the torpedoes miss, or you end up out of range.

[Kapitan]

Attack once and once only coming back for a second attempt is litteraly suicide because the enamy will be waiting for you to come back, however if you have ID'd all surface and sub units and there are no targets that are sugnificant threat and if they are put yourself in in a position where your less likely to be attacked.

The second attack is one heck of a lot harder than the first.

[SeaQueen]

I'm not saying I'm leaving and then coming back. I generally shoot at such a close range that there really isn't time to go anywhere. I'd phrase it more as a second salvo.

Attack once and once only coming back for a second attempt is litteraly suicide because the enamy will be waiting for you to come back, however if you have ID'd all surface and sub units and there are no targets that are sugnificant threat and if they are put yourself in in a position where your less likely to be attacked.

The second attack is one heck of a lot harder than the first.

[Palindromeria]

Oh interesting! I was going to put one out soon.

please do so !

Having left a flaming datum, I ran for the center of the formation and shot my wakehomers at the CVN. Ta dah! :rock:

SWEET

i recall one occasion where i crippled the carrier with my 1st salvo.
this enabled a second salvo to put it on the bottom.

I figure if I have 'em I'm shooting them. .

in an ssn i would do that - keep firing and trying to run ahead for another attack until empty. but in lin san liu i feel quite overmatched/outclassed.

i dont like the way the game never detects a scope/masts. so i am doing a sonar only attack. Often times I am firing in to the formation simply hoping that i have focused on the cv (im using some random elements so the formation differs every time) im not using fast reload.

it's pretty easy to put one's self in a bad position to take a shot, and the torpedoes miss, or you end up out of range.

yes it sure is !

My general concept of " success " in this mission (more or less)
after the basic "intercept and get into range"

1) SURVIVAL !
2) fire my salvo prior to detection (see point 1 :) )
3) hit anything
4) hit the carrier
5) sink anything
6) major damage to carrier
7) sink the carrier

pts 5 and 6 easily flip flop depending on size of sinking ship.

[SeaQueen]

in an ssn i would do that - keep firing and trying to run ahead for another attack until empty. but in lin san liu i feel quite overmatched/outclassed.


You don't necessarily need to run ahead. I just figured that if they're still in range, I might as well shoot. Since surface ships tend to move fast, I usually only have one opportunity to shoot in the KILO so I might as well make the most of it.


i dont like the way the game never detects a scope/masts.


I don't worry about it that much. Periscope detections are definitely possible in real life, but if you do everything smartly then it shouldn't happen that often. As I see it, it's really a pretty minor thing. Besides, if you just figure on what the radar horizon is for a 50' radar antenna against a 6' mast, radar doesn't give you a whole lot of range that sonar wouldn't give you under the right conditions. Also, it's effectiveness is conditioned on the mast being exposed in the first place, so when you figure that radar could only see about as far as the sonar could under the right conditions, and then figure on what the chance of the mast being exposed is, and then figure on where he's going to expose his periscope, the value of periscope detection is really sort of nebulous. If you can get one, it's great, but you won't always get it. Harpoon does mast detections. Every once in a while you get one. It's nice that it's there, but if it wasn't I wouldn't lose sleep.

I worry sometimes that gamers, in a quest to account for everything in minute detail fall into the trap of being "precisely wrong," and overcredit or undercredit things based on arbitrary assumptions of how they think things ought to be. The thing is, since few if any of the gamers have experience, "that looks about right," ends up saying more about what ordinary people THINK is going on in a sea battle than what really happens. That's not what makes it interesting to me, though.

Often times I am firing in to the formation simply hoping that i have focused on the cv (im using some random elements so the formation differs every time) im not using fast reload.

Go ahead. Use your periscope. It has my royal endorsement.

[Palindromeria]

<< You don't necessarily need to run ahead. I just figured that if they're still in range, I might as well shoot. Since surface ships tend to move fast, I usually only have one opportunity to shoot in the KILO so I might as well make the most of it. >>

well thats it in a nutshell.

in my mission getting in range is not a given.
it is in and of itself a small victory.
i have not been able to get anywhere as close as you have managed to.
i sometimes fail to get off an attack.
i often am firing from long range, and wouldnt be able to id tgts with peri anyway.
i often have to seriously deplete the battery to even get to the "long range" position.

if i was in a close position with a relatively full battery
im sure i would at least pessimistically consider a second salvo.
and i say pessimistically only because
whenever i am anything but extremely cautious in Lin San Liu, i get sunk.

[SeaQueen]

in my mission getting in range is not a given.


And it shouldn't be.


it is in and of itself a small victory.


Your ability to get within range is partly a gauge of your piloting ability (can you calculate things like CPA, and what not) but mostly it's just where your initial position falls within the limiting lines of approach of the formation, because the formation is so much faster than a KILO, it has the ability to effectively narrow down the set of points of origin from which a submarine could originate and get within torpedo range of at least one warship in the formation. That's important too, because it also dictates where a formation should concentrate the ships in it's ASW screen. That's how speed turns out to be a big advantage that surface vessels have over submarines. Speed effectively allows a surface ship to choose where a submarine might come from, and plan accordingly.

The theory behind it is presented in Koopman's "Search and Screening" I also outlined the essentials in the scenario notes to my NATO EXWAR Exercise scenario. This is actually a good example of how a geometry is important in scenario design. A real KILO captain would be able to tell in advance whether he could get within range of a strike group, just by doing some basic navigational calculations, and from that he would make the decision whether to pursue or not. He wouldn't go after a strike group if the possibility of getting in range didn't exist. He'd just call it in to his headquarters and they'd target the strike group for attack by something else. In this sense, a good KILO scenario starts from the assumption that there exists the possiblity of getting within range. Whether you do everything necessary to actually accomplish that is another question, but there ought to at least exist the possiblity.


i have not been able to get anywhere as close as you have managed to.


I'm sorry to hear that. I don't always get that close, but sometimes I do. It really depends a lot on luck. It also depends somewhat on my willingness to make a dash for it. Creeping around at 3-5 knots may make you very difficult to find, but it also makes it very unlikely you'll be able to get in range. I've also found that sometimes going slow actually makes you less stealthy. Being "stealthy" really means that the searcher's sensor coverage is small in comparison to the area he has to search. Going faster is one way to increase your stealth by increasing the area a searcher has to search in order to find you.


i sometimes fail to get off an attack.


As do I.


i often am firing from long range, and wouldnt be able to id tgts with peri anyway.
i often have to seriously deplete the battery to even get to the "long range" position.

If that's the case then you're probably coming in from a position that is highly offset from the formation's centerline. That's fine, so long as it's not so highly offset that the potential to get in range no longer exists. You still might not get in range, but if the scenario is designed so that your starting point is one from which the at least the possibility exists, then it was because of some combination of enemy action and poor decision making.

and i say pessimistically only because whenever i am anything but extremely cautious in Lin San Liu, i get sunk.

That's interesting because I think the Improved KILO might be a little overpowered in the game. Last night I surfaced in the middle of a CSG just to see if something was wrong because I was so worried that something would detect me and nothing had.

[Palindromeria]

i have a lot of respect for your knowlegde/opinions .
i agreed with your initial assesment. maybe i should have left it at that.
This is somehow feeling adversarial instead of constructive at this point,
so im just gonna go read a book.

regards

dave

[SeaQueen]

This is somehow feeling adversarial instead of constructive at this point, so im just gonna go read a book.


I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way.

[Pisces]

i have a lot of respect for your knowlegde/opinions .
i agreed with your initial assesment. maybe i should have left it at that.
This is somehow feeling adversarial instead of constructive at this point,
so im just gonna go read a book.

regards

dave

Palindromeria, have you looked at the Powerpoint file that comes with the EXwar scenario? It tells you how to calculate those limiting lines of approach. (Although I would love it for SeaQueen to elaborate on it. Not everyone has that Koopman book) And it would have added to the constructive element in the critisism that you seek. Thinking about Mr. Spock (Vulcan) might help understanding what SeaQueen means. Logic. He says that al the time.

[XabbaRus]

SeaQueen what I would like to do is alter your NATOEXWAR to have a playable FFG. Thing is you locked the mission :)

Could you update it to include that as it would make a good Multiplayer game. Infact I challenge you to just that. You in your Kilo versus me in an FFG.

[SeaQueen]

SeaQueen what I would like to do is alter your NATOEXWAR to have a playable FFG. Thing is you locked the mission

I MUST RETAIN TOTAL CONTROL BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D

Could you update it to include that as it would make a good Multiplayer game..

You think? I've tossed around the idea of doing something similar, but with some CLF ships and FFGs.

Infact I challenge yu to just that. You in your Kilo versus me in an FFG
I keep thinking about a good MP game.

Awww... can I do the FFG? I have the hat and everything! :D

[SeaQueen]

It tells you how to calculate those limiting lines of approach. (Although I would love it for SeaQueen to elaborate on it. Not everyone has that Koopman book) And it would have added to the constructive element in the critisism that you seek.

What else do you want to know? I tried to keep the scenario notes confined to the minimum necessary to explain why I did what I did. I figured if someone was that much of an ASW geek they either already knew what were looking at or else, would hunt the stuff down. The NATO EXWAR Exercise is pretty much the archetypical surface ship v. sub scenario, though, with different variations. That general geometry is how things work, just because of the kinematics of things.

Thinking about Mr. Spock (Vulcan) might help understanding what SeaQueen means. Logic. He says that al the time.

Wow... I'm the ASW Vulcan...

[XabbaRus]

SeaQueen what I would like to do is alter your NATOEXWAR to have a playable FFG. Thing is you locked the mission
I MUST RETAIN TOTAL CONTROL BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D

Could you update it to include that as it would make a good Multiplayer game..

You think? I've tossed around the idea of doing something similar, but with some CLF ships and FFGs.

Infact I challenge yu to just that. You in your Kilo versus me in an FFG
I keep thinking about a good MP game.
Awww... can I do the FFG? I have the hat and everything! :D

Ok you can have whatever you want :)

I think it would be fun. You on yahoo so it can be coordinated.

[Palindromeria]

Grumble... grumble... grumble...

I keep playing KILO scenarios. It's the same thing every time: approach a fast moving strike group and bag a high value unit (either a CVN or an LHD). I keep trying to wedge myself between the screens and the high value units, shoot, go deep, pop up and shoot some more. I'm beginning to think this is a bad tactic, because I get killed every time. The thing is, I can't think of a good reason why.

It seems like the only viable option is to actually avoid getting in front of anyone, come in from a far offset angle and shoot from behind. Anything else is suicide.

I think the Improved KILO might be a little overpowered in the game. Last night I surfaced in the middle of a CSG just to see if something was wrong because I was so worried that something would detect me and nothing had..

I dont find these 2 statements to be logical, but rather a bit contradictory.
Aside from the fact that Seaqueens replies were now based on the Improved Kilo instead of the kilo he initally grumbles about, i really dont find any discussion of tactics to be worthwhile unless those involved are using the same scenario with the same sub . whose to say what the differences are ? there are far too many variables.

even in 2 different scenarios using the same sub , what about sonar conditions,weather , the distances involved, the type of enemy(specific ships not just "american") , the number of aircraft on already patrol , the number of seawolves lurking about, etc etc etc etc.

simply compare apples to apples , is all. :ping:

i have not been able to get anywhere as close as you have managed to.

I'm sorry to hear that.

why ? do you think i need your sorrow ?:rotfl:
i respect you but , puhleez

And it would have added to the constructive element in the critisism that you seek.

i wasnt seeking criticism nor did i ask for any, i was agreeing with SeaQueens initial asessment:hmm:

now, back to the great tribble hunt. :yep:

[Palindromeria]

This is somehow feeling adversarial instead of constructive at this point, so im just gonna go read a book.


I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way.

no worries

regards

dave

[Bellman]

:D Palindromeria ''......... instead of the kilo he** initialy grumbles about''

**Sorry to be picky but that should be 'she' - our respected lady contributor who has rightly earned the title Queen !

[SeaQueen]

I think the Improved KILO might be a little overpowered in the game. Last night I surfaced in the middle of a CSG just to see if something was wrong because I was so worried that something would detect me and nothing had..

I think I just realized why this was happening. In DW, the screen's sonar washes out at the speed I had the formation going at, so of course they won't detect me. DUH! :-)

[Dr.Sid]

Yeah .. missions are often designed like this. They at least should stop pinging, because it only makes them easier targets. :|\\

[SeaQueen]

Yeah .. missions are often designed like this. They at least should stop pinging, because it only makes them easier targets. :|\\

It's easy enough to fix. Still... I can't help but feel a bit cheated. I always hope that simulations end up agreeing with my intuition, and this is a case where it clearly failed.

[Palindromeria]

I think the Improved KILO might be a little overpowered in the game. Last night I surfaced in the middle of a CSG just to see if something was wrong because I was so worried that something would detect me and nothing had..

I think I just realized why this was happening. In DW, the screen's sonar washes out at the speed I had the formation going at, so of course they won't detect me. DUH! :-)

LOL - that explains quite a bit.

**Sorry to be picky but that should be 'she' - our respected lady contributor who has rightly earned the title Queen !

omg :oops: - my sincere and humble apologies , SeaQueen.

the old adage about assumptions comes to mind :oops: :oops: :oops:

so sorry

[fatty]

Assaulting a CVBG with a Kilo does not strike me as an overly tricky scenario provided that:

The Kilo starts somewhere ahead of the CVBG. If you have to play a noisy game of catch-up you risk detection by any accompanying SSNs. Make like a hole in the water and let them approach you (OneShot). Don't necessarily let them run you over, you don't need to get that close.
The makeup and arrangement of the group can be ascertained through linked intel, EW, sonar, or visual.
Situation awareness can be maintained through the attack so that the torpedoes will find the high-value target on the first run (Dr.Sid).One difficulty I would anticipate would be ensuring a hit on the high-value target and not an escort. Point 3 is helpful for wireguiding, but hanging around near the surface is unnecessary exposure to those nasty ASROCs. I wonder if you could stagger torpedoes in regards to RTE range so that they would activate only after penetrating the screen. This may require some testing of how the CVBG would scatter after a TIW is detected.

The geometry of the problem is such that against a CSG or ESG going 15-20kts, though, you will usually need to go faster than that in order to get within torpedo range.

If this is the case then there really is no chance of your survival. Even if the group is moving so fast that their sonar is washed out, as I said your speed would risk detection by any unknown SSNs that may be escorting the group. Given the Kilo's limited firepower and speed, you really need to take the element of surprise and run with it.

Anything beyond that I consider simply outside the capabilities of the platform. You wouldn't take a P-3C into a dogfight, don't attempt to play cowboy and lasso a CVBG with your Kilo.

That said, I also agree with Dr.Sid's evasion tactics; go beneath the layer, maintain a narrow escape profile, and GTFO.

[SeaQueen]

I wonder if you could stagger torpedoes in regards to RTE range so that they would activate only after penetrating the screen. This may require some testing of how the CVBG would scatter after a TIW is detected.


It also depends on the screens being positioned in a dumb way. If you figure a KILO has a torpedo range no greater than 10Nmi, then you want to put the screens at least that far out in order to insure that if you're detected, it's before you are within range of the HVUs. Therefore, if you shot into the formation, with an RTE past the screens, you'd be guaranteed your torpedo would miss on account of it being over 10NM away from the target.

If this is the case then there really is no chance of your survival.

It's definitely possible to do it, because I've done it a few times now. In general it's not wise to operate an SSN in the same waterspace as a transiting, trigger happy, CSG. I know there's lot of imagining out there, but just because an SSN is part of a CSG, don't mean it's an intrinsic part of the ASW screen, in close proximity to the CVN. Having SSNs communicate at high speed and depth with a surface fleet is not likely to work out well, and so it's begging for fratricide.

[jason taylor]

Any country that would want to deliver such a decisive blow might send more than one Kilo into such a situation... sounds like a good co-op mission.
It depends on what you mean by sending more than one. Just because they sent more than one doesn't mean they'll be acting together in coordination. As I've said before, a single submarine skillfully handled can certainly sink an LHD or CVN.

You might also send out a group of submarines to fill a large area so that the strike group the submarines intend to attack is more likely to be found. If a sub finds the strike group he might send a message back to headquarters (since it's unknown if the other subs are capable of communicating, they can't send it directly to them), and then begin his attack.

I'm not sure I'd want to concentrate a group of subs in too small an area though because it means that if one detects one, one is more likely to detect all of them and at that point they all get smacked. The other thing is that it compouds the big handicap of KILOs: they're slow and can't search a big area quickly.

The other vessels, once they get the message that the strike group was sighted at a particular location at a particular time, moving at a particular speed and course might then move to attack it, if they're in range they might even fire cruise missiles at it but by that point, the initial submarine's attack is most likely over.
______________________________________
"if one detects one, one is more likely to detect all of them"

Like with the USS England getting six Jap boats in one blow(actually one was credited to a CVE in the task force)?
My limited game experience with kilos would indicate that it would be logical to regard them as expendable. Besides it could conceivably have the opposite effect and they could be in effect each others ECM. Has anyone ever tried to make that last idea work in a game(not necessarily with a Kilo)?

[SeaQueen]

My limited game experience with kilos would indicate that it would be logical to regard them as expendable.

Expendable is sort of a weird term with respect to warships. I'd argue that because even the least expensive warships are constructed at considerable cost no warship is truely "expendable." The term "expendable" is sort of strange with respect to war at sea, or war in general. It implies that there's some value to be extracted from sending ships on suicidal missions. I don't see that. Some ships are more likely to be placed in harm's way than others, but none of them are really "throw aways." It's too expensive to build ships to think of them in those terms. It always has been, really. Navies cost a lot.

Besides it could conceivably have the opposite effect and they could be in effect each others ECM.

I doubt it. In what sense?

Has anyone ever tried to make that last idea work in a game(not necessarily with a Kilo)?

Which idea?

[jason taylor]

My limited game experience with kilos would indicate that it would be logical to regard them as expendable.
Expendable is sort of a weird term with respect to warships. I'd argue that because even the least expensive warships are constructed at considerable cost no warship is truely "expendable." The term "expendable" is sort of strange with respect to war at sea, or war in general. It implies that there's some value to be extracted from sending ships on suicidal missions. I don't see that. Some ships are more likely to be placed in harm's way than others, but none of them are really "throw aways." It's too expensive to build ships to think of them in those terms. It always has been, really. Navies cost a lot.



Has anyone ever tried to make that last idea work in a game(not necessarily with a Kilo)?

Which idea?
__________________________________________
Expendable is always a reliative term. However, Kilos are cheaper, and less tactically efficient and using them for wolf-pack tactics is more reasonable, especially as they are used by powers whose only vital interest at sea is sea-denial. The enemy would be hurt far less by a great loss of Kilos then we would by having a carrier put out of action for even a few months. However their most efficiant use would probably be against SLOC as in the World Wars.

Besides it could conceivably have the opposite effect and they could be in effect each others ECM.
I doubt it. In what sense?

Quote:
Has anyone ever tried to make that last idea work in a game(not necessarily with a Kilo)?
The last idea was "being each others ECM". I mean deliberatly using more then one sub to distract enemy sensors. They would have to be close enough at the start and manuever about, each leaving a cloud of countermeasures.
For instance they could cruise parralel at 3000 yds apart. When an enemy approachs they one breaks to port another to starboard.

[SeaQueen]

Expendable is always a reliative term. However, Kilos are cheaper, and less tactically efficient and using them for wolf-pack tactics is more reasonable, especially as they are used by powers whose only vital interest at sea is sea-denial.

I guess it also depends on what you consider to be a wolf pack tactic as well. To really defend a coast against some sort of hostile naval presense, you need more than one KILO. You don't need more than one to successfully attack a strike group.

The enemy would be hurt far less by a great loss of Kilos then we would by having a carrier put out of action for even a few months.

Absolutely true. That's why they're spectacular weapons! Even one of them could sink a carrier or big deck L-ship.

However their most efficiant use would probably be against SLOC as in the World Wars.

I'd say any or all of the above would be good.


The last idea was "being each others ECM". I mean deliberatly using more then one sub to distract enemy sensors. They would have to be close enough at the start and manuever about, each leaving a cloud of countermeasures.
For instance they could cruise parralel at 3000 yds apart. When an enemy approachs they one breaks to port another to starboard.

I think you're thinking of submarines too much like fighter planes. Since there's limitations to submarine communications, executing these sorts of maneuvers doesn't necessarily buy you much because everything happens so slowly.

It might be interesting to experiment with countermeasures like that, but personally, I'd rather just not give the enemy the opportunity to shoot first like that. I rather dodge NO torpedoes or poorly aimed counterfire than approach a target with the intent of using countermeasures to hopefully distract the torpedoes he shoots at me, particularly when I have the opportunity to avoid detection entirely up until I get the first shot. First shot confers a HUGE advantage.

Something I might try to do, would be to use one sub as a diversion, then follow on with a second submarine from another direction. If you put them too close together, though, when one gets detected (and he's supposed to be because he's the diversion), the second will probably be too, so the tactic fails and the fact that they can hopefully benefit from each other's countermeasures is sort of a consolation prize since the attack itself has failed.

[LoBlo]

This is somehow feeling adversarial instead of constructive at this point, so im just gonna go read a book. I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way.

*whispers* Line by line can to some infer adversarial posting in the usual forum etiquette. Try slightly less subdividing in your replies */whisper*
*edit for sematics*

[SeaQueen]

*whispers* Line by line generally infers adversarial posting in the usual forum etiquette. Try slightly less subdividing in your replies */whisper*

That's odd to me. I've been on the internet since the early 90s and sometimes I have seen people do it in an adversarial way, but when people post longer messages, it's also struck me as a good way to respond with clarity. If people are taking my posts as more adversarial than I intend them to be, I'll try to be more careful.

[Bellman]

LoBlo I cant agree that SQs 'line by lines' could be perceived as adversarial. Looks like an exception to your ''generally infers.'' Incidentaly just on a question of semantics - one infers from your statement that you meant Line by line generally 'implies.....'

It was a reasonable discussion triggered and maintained by SQ. Adversarial posts come from lurkers, acting as self-appointed referees, whilst not contributing to the discussion. See also Wetwarev7 (New Patch 1.04)

This post is in itself, for demonstration purposes only, an example ! ;):lol:

[LoBlo]

"general infers" is perhaps too strong a statement. "to some can infer" is probably better. Just something that I've noticed in my forum experiences. Not all take it that way, but some do. I've seen one popular forum ban line by line replies, becuase it was prone to flame wars. Just something that I like to keep in mind. But you and SQ are right, in a lot of instances it gives clarity and is advantageous. But alas, all it OFFTOPIC.

[LoBlo]

Yeah .. missions are often designed like this. They at least should stop pinging, because it only makes them easier targets. :|\\

It's easy enough to fix. Still... I can't help but feel a bit cheated. I always hope that simulations end up agreeing with my intuition, and this is a case where it clearly failed.

Now that you've fixed your scenario with appropriate sonar speeds has it altered your probability for success any? (btw, thanks for the LLOA equations. I've been looking for those for a while now).

Ive notice this trend as well, that most scenarios fall into the trap of going too fast to be effective sensors. Problem is that calculating the sprint and drift ratios (how fast and how long to sprint vs drift) is somewhat annoying and most don't want to take the time to do it. (I know I don't). Preplanned sonabouy lines seem a lacking as well.

But I agree with XabbaRus, this question of tatics begs exploration from the ASW escort side as well. Intuitively, seems like the only last ditch tatic would be to have two sacrafice escorts immediately adjacent to the CVN to charge into the line of fire of any incoming torps to take the hits in place of the LHD/CVN.

[SeaQueen]

Now that you've fixed your scenario with appropriate sonar speeds has it altered your probability for success any?

It's made it harder, but it's still do-able.

(btw, thanks for the LLOA equations. I've been looking for those for a while now).

You're welcome. I made a spreadsheet so that I could use to visualize them and look at different possibilities at once. I use it both for game play and for scenario design. My big axe to grind is that people need to think more about geometry in scenario creation. So much of naval warfare is geometry. It doesn't need to be in exacting mathematical detail, but they do need to be aware of what the critical variables are. That helps one understand where to insert the randomness (random boxes, random start boxes and dynamic locations) so that it has some impact on the outcome. It doesn't take a lot of complicated scripting to make a mission that's replayable as long it captures the essentials of an interesting vignette.

Ive notice this trend as well, that most scenarios fall into the trap of going too fast to be effective sensors. Problem is that calculating the sprint and drift ratios (how fast and how long to sprint vs drift) is somewhat annoying and most don't want to take the time to do it. (I know I don't).

Sprint and drift is one of those tactics you read about but nobody really does as far as I can tell. The ideas are explained in the first chapter of Koopman's Search and Screening, which is basically the ASW tactics bible, as far as I can tell.

Preplanned sonabouy lines seem a lacking as well.

I'm disappointed with AI controlled airborn ASW in general. They don't replenish sonobuoy fields. They don't really search an area with sonobuoys if given the tactic "sonobuoy search." The helos will only ever lay this little box shaped pattern that stays the same size and doesn't expand over time.

In fact, if there was one area I'd say DW really needs work I'd say it's everything related to aircraft. I won't even go into how annoyed I am with fixed wing aviation in general.


But I agree with XabbaRus, this question of tatics begs exploration from the ASW escort side as well.

I'll see what I can do. I have projects in the oven, but I don't always have the time to finish baking them, ya know?

[Dr.Sid]

I had to use sprint'n'drift in LA when following Red October in recent SubGuru's mission. Red October (RO) is doing some nice 15 kts and I have to stay in touch or even get closer .. but I was aware he can do 'crazy ivan' or simply slow down .. so I had to drift for a while, check demon for RO's RPM .. than sprint again .. really nice mission design.

[SeaQueen]

I had to use sprint'n'drift in LA when following Red October in recent SubGuru's mission. Red October (RO) is doing some nice 15 kts and I have to stay in touch or even get closer .. but I was aware he can do 'crazy ivan' or simply slow down .. so I had to drift for a while, check demon for RO's RPM .. than sprint again .. really nice mission design.

I don't doubt it. I'm thinking of something slightly more formal, where ships sprint so long and drift so long to maintain a specific SOA. There are these things called isochrons, and it's kind of complicated. My sense of things is that if a real ship had to do that as a tactic, it'd just wing it. I also don't think the game gives enough credit to surface ships, as far as active sonar not washing out. That's just me, though.

[LoBlo]

You could always alter the database to increase the AS washout speeds, afaik.

[SeaQueen]

You could always alter the database to increase the AS washout speeds, afaik.

Yeah... I could. I've thought about it from time to time. It isn't a huge deal, though. They're not that far off. It just annoys me that I can't make things go quite as fast as I'd like them to go sometimes.

If I had one thing to fix, I'd rather see the air stuff fixed and I'd also like to see a lot more flexibility in the air stuff. It's like they never fixed the stuff in Janes Fleet Command that was glaringly wrong. The review of Janes Fleet Command on The Strategy Page is so right on. Any time I have anything involving extensive use of aircraft, I'd rather game it in Harpoon. DW is very ASW and undersea warfare oriented. In that respect it's quite good, but with everything else it's okay at best.

[Bellman]

SQ as a veteran Pooner, since the early 90s, I agree with your preference to game the projection of power by air assets in Harpoon, particularly since the 'ready-time' changes have inhibited the dominance of aircraft strategy.

However, regretably neither Harpoon 3v 3.6.3 nor 3.7 (ANW) have successfuly fully implemented aircraft within the sim. Following the release of ANW some 40% of 80+ bug/issues, reported by authoritive sources, related to the use of aircraft. See
http://www.xtreme-gamer.com/forums/harpoon-series/42076-known-harpoon-3-7-anw-issues.html
Other links at The Harpooners Point - forum registration required

Comparing in-game systems, I still rate higher what SCS has achieved in ASW compared to the H3 limited and buggy aircraft. DW will remain my game of first choice.