i love the middle east

[cobalt]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=LA%2020060128&articleId=1838

[CCIP]

While it may be just a LITTLE too idealistic, I'm 100% behind this:

The Parliamentarians, civil society organisations, and prominent
individuals signed below hereby urge a solution to the crisis in
relations between the US and Iran, Israel and Iran, based on the
following clearly defined principles:

1) No use of any military option whatsoever by any party for any reason.

2) A clear commitment by all nuclear-armed parties not to use nuclear
weapons in this situation, and a broader commitment to the doctrine
of no first use of nuclear weapons.

3) The implementation of the 1995 Non-Proliferation Treaty Resolution
on a Nuclear Weapon Free Zone in the Middle East, implementation of
the annual consensus-adopted General Assembly resolutions on
'Establishment of a Nuclear-Weapons-Free Zone in the region of the
Middle East', and particularly the full implementation of this years
resolution on nuclear proliferation in the middle -east.

4) A clear commitment by all parties to the global elimination of
nuclear weapons, including through reaffirming the Final Declaration
of the 2000 Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference, and relevant
General Assembly resolutions.

5) A diplomatic path to the removal of tensions between the US,
Israel, and Iran, involving compromise on both sides, recognition of
the legitimate security concerns of all parties including both Israel
and Iran, and refraining from inflammatory statements or the
exploration of military options by any party.

[The Avon Lady]

Chamberlain came home with a signed piece of paper, too.

So did Stalin.

Learn from history. It's repeating itself.

[CCIP]

Perhaps we should also learn something of Hiroshima and Nagasaki then.

[The Avon Lady]

Perhaps we should also learn something of Hiroshima and Nagasaki then.
Yes. It ended the war rather quickly. Since then, Japan, Germany and Italy have behaved themselves and are global contributors - not destroyers.

Or haven't you heard? :hmm:

[CCIP]

:-?

I did say something along the lines of being too idealistic, didn't I?

I'm by no means advocating total disarmament in the face of what obviously is a big threat on the part of Iran to Israel. Yes, Israel should think of peace but prepare for war - but I don't think nuclear preparations should have any part of it. It's not called MAD for nothing - and in Israel's case, the D is more than a real danger. I really, really don't see Isreal's nukes as anything but a 'going out in a blaze' measure.

And yea, well, unlike Chamberlain... I'm not gonna get my hopes up here. I don't see Israel giving up its nukes any more than I see Iran stopping the development of theirs. That's stinkin' realism for you. I was hoping Israel might be a little bit less keen on weapons of mass murder than the less enlightened powers out there, but, tough luck.

What surprises me is that we still haven't seen any F-16s with blue stars over Iranian facilities. You'd think they'd be desperate by now - if anything, I sympathise with the fact that Israel is apparently being left out to dry on the Iran thing, to which noone wants to commit anything but big words, be it on disarmament or threat of force.

[Sea Demon]

:-?
And yea, well, unlike Chamberlain... I'm not gonna get my hopes up here. I don't see Israel giving up its nukes any more than I see Iran stopping the development of theirs. That's stinkin' realism for you. I was hoping Israel might be a little bit less keen on weapons of mass murder than the less enlightened powers out there, but, tough luck.

There's really much more to it than this.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061212/wl_nm/iran_holocaust_dc

At some point you gotta see things for what they are.

[CCIP]

That "conference" is all the more reason I was hoping Israel would be less keen on weapons of mass murder, having experienced some themselves.

I'm yet to be shown that, other than perhaps as bunker-busting bombs, nuclear weapons hold any military value in the strict sense (and we assume that the purpose of a military is to defeat enemy forces, not wipe out enemy and possibly other populations). And my assumption is that if you have a nuclear weapon and you have some very obvious enemies, you intend to threaten using it at some point. Which means by virtue of having nukes, Israel is holding millions of Arabs hostage to prevent Iran from holding Israeli population hostage. Does that even sound sane? Sure doesn't to me.

This is not WWII. This is MAD.

[Sea Demon]

That "conference" is all the more reason I was hoping Israel would be less keen on weapons of mass murder, having experienced some themselves.


Why don't you focus that on Iran. Isreal has nuclear weapons, yet threatens nobody with them. Same with the USA. In fact, I believe we should have bombed the living daylights out of Iran already and have been done with it. When the time came, Ronald Reagan bombed Libya when they started this nonsense, and it ended their programs. Yes, bomb them. Regardless of what the "peace at any price" people think, war will not ever become obsolete. At least in our lifetimes. Hopefully someday in the future. But as long as Ahmadinijad's, and Li' Kim's of North Korea exist you can forget about it. It's too bad the "peace at any price" people have so evacuated American will in this day and age. It's going to turn around and bite us in the end. Fight em' now, or let them grow in capability and fight a more dangerous enemy later.

[CCIP]

I don't think it's fair to say who threatens who, or at least that Israel's position with nukes is crystal-clear. Israel denies having nuclear weapons; Iran denies the intention to produce it. The USA has made repeated attempts to pass provisions to allow tactical use of nuclear weapons. Iran has made nasty allusions to wiping out Israel; Israel doesn't have to make any allusions to the fact that anyone who hurts Israel repays at least ten-fold. It doesn't have to make them because it does that on a daily basis anyway, just that we don't have it happening at a nuclear level.

This thread is not about Iran, that's why I'm not focusing on it. And you must be reading rather selectively not to notice my repeated statements that Iran is obviously a threat to Israel foremost. Sure, by all means, "fight 'em now". For Israel, it's the 11th hour on that. But "fight" and "nuke" are so incompatible it's beyond ridiculous.

[Sea Demon]

I don't think it's fair to say who threatens who, or at least that Israel's position with nukes is crystal-clear. Israel denies having nuclear weapons; Iran denies the intention to produce it. The USA has made repeated attempts to pass provisions to allow tactical use of nuclear weapons.

I don't know. I may just find it disturbing the moral equivalency you assign to both Iran and Isreal. When was the last time you heard an Isreali PM say he wanted to wipe anybody off the map? Same with an American President?

[The Avon Lady]

This is MAD.
No. It's much worse (http://jewishworldreview.com/0306/prager032806.php3).

Ahmadinejad is not Kruschev (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23916). :nope:

[Sea Demon]

This is MAD.
No. It's much worse (http://jewishworldreview.com/0306/prager032806.php3).

Ahmadinejad is not Kruschev (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23916). :nope:

Hey AL. These people aren't going to realize this until Iran has working nuclear weapons.

Illusions of peace and kumbaya are going to get people killed. Guaranteed.

[CCIP]

I don't think I put them at an equivalent morally; and I certainly think Israel is a far safer bet than Iran. But when the gloves come off, I wouldn't put anything past Israel. If a nuke heads for Tel-Aviv, don't expect me to be applauding Tehran disappearing off the map. I know it won't happen in the reverse order.

Don't get me wrong; I'm certainly at a point where I would more or less favour a swift, forceful, conventional solution to the Iran issue. I have a very close cousin in Haifa, and a number of good classmates from Tehran. I want the whole thing to be as painless for both as possible.

[Sea Demon]

I want the whole thing to be as painless for both as possible.

Mark my words. When it comes down to it, it's going to be anything but painless. Wishing for things won't make it so. Evacuating America's/Isreal's will, won't make it better, but prolong the inevitable at a greater cost down the road.

[The Avon Lady]

Wishing for things won't make it so.
See my sig's bottom line quote.

G'nite! ;)

[CCIP]

So what are you suggesting exactly? Conventional solution no longer good enough for both of you? :huh:

Well, let my views of gun ownership be known: I have a perfectly good axe within reach.

[Sea Demon]

In addition, I hope for less pain on Isreal than Iran when it comes down to it. I wish for more pain on Iran than America when it all comes out in the wash. If it's us versus them, I choose us and allied nations to survive.

[Sea Demon]

Well, let my views of gun ownership be known: I have a perfectly good axe within reach.

A .45 revolver has a much more potent reach than your axe. :up:

[CCIP]

Not in my house, where any of its advantages are negated by my superior tactical awareness :p


My implication is that for defensive purposes, you can do a lot with a little. Nuclear weapons, as I said, are not military weapons in the strict sense; they're made to kill off populations. I thought at this stage it was still about removing Iran's nuclear capacity - or are we secretly hyping up for lots of dead Iranians?

[Sea Demon]

Not in my house, where any of its advantages are negated by my superior tactical awareness :p


My implication is that for defensive purposes, you can do a lot with a little. Nuclear weapons, as I said, are not military weapons in the strict sense; they're made to kill off populations. I thought at this stage it was still about removing Iran's nuclear capacity - or are we secretly hyping up for lots of dead Iranians?

Yeah, you better hope the burglar doesn't have good ears. ;) And if there's a team of two, you're a goner.

Well, yes. I am promoting a conventional bombing campaign against Iran, including it's entire military, port, some manufacturing and all air facilities. A sustained two week affair. No boots on the ground or land invasion. Tell Russia and China to sit down and shut the 'F' up. Tell the UN to stuff it. Tell American Liberals/Democrats to pack sand. And just get it done. I never insinuated I wanted a strategic nuclear strike. Although waving the big stick without using it might come in handy to dter other trouble makers.

Of course this ain't gonna happen. But it should. And it would solve the problem, and maybe a few others that might think twice.

[Yahoshua]

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/yahoshua/Smilies/argue.gif



http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/yahoshua/Smilies/Moredrama.gif

[BH]

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
George Santayana

[Iceman]

If anything can be learned from the past and present it is this....for a force to completely and utterly defeat any Iranian military force should not even be a question....the obvious things I would look at are look at Iraq....do you want to occupy a country and try to go about it the hard way or take the easy way and push a button and simplify your problems.To conquer an enemy or foe and let lem still exsist to come back and bite ya seems weird to me....but that is democracy and freedom and the current mentality of America...we can defeat a country but when is the last time we took over one to make it ours?....point I am trying to make is War to me is a very crazy thing...the object to me would be to make your opponent become your slave or least subordanite until it is no longer a threat....no matter how you achieve this be it conventional or thru nukes either way is war...war is war...the object is to win...to win some sort of peace hopefully.And if a man was smart he would find a way to lose as least of his own forces as possible...if he was truly wise he would find a way to avoid war altogether for all.

[TteFAboB]

Ahmadinejad has said that the mission of the Islamic revolution is to pave the way for the 12th Imam. While he's very convincing as are all lunatics and seem to be absolutely sure he's right as any sociopath is, I'd like to know wether Khamenei shares the same vision or is even behind him or not.

If the 12th Imam was to come then it would indeed make sense to sacrifice Iran in a MAD nuclear trade with Israel. Yes, millions of Iranians would die if Israel could retaliate and especially if it had more warheads than believed but all the dead would fall straight in the good grace of Allah as martyrs.

"The Prophet peace be upon him said: 'The nations shall gather and team up against you (Muslims) as the predators gather and team up against their preys. A questioner asked: 'Is it because of us being low in numbers at that day?' The Prophet replied: 'No, you that day shall be in great numbers, but you will be as powerless as the foam of the water on the surface of the river, and Allah shall remove any fear from your enemies toward you, and He shall put in your hearts a corruption.' A questioner asked: 'O Apostle of Allah, what is the corruption?' The Prophet replied: 'The love of life's amusements and the fear of death.' (Translation of Sunan Abu Dawud, The Book of Fierce Battles - The Gathering of all Nations against Islam)"

All Muslim governments rank high on corruption as do all dictatorships and totalitarian (also Sharia'rite) countries to some extent. There's also the ostentation and lust for materialism. I've never seen a people more fascinated and eager to ostentate wealth than the peoples of the Middle East, especially the Arabs. But that is probably more related to culture:

"Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk: they are obstinate in hypocrisy: thou knowest them not: We know them: twice shall We punish them: and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty. (The Noble Quran, 9:101)"

So you may rightfully argue that these rulers (Prince Exotic-car-collection) are not Muslims themselves but "hypocrites" in the sense of the quote above. Unfortunately, they are contagious by necessity:

"...Kings, when they Enter a country, despoil it, And make the noblest Of its people its meanest (A-izzata ahliha athillatan) Thus do they behave. (The Noble Quran, 27:34)"

Now, it all makes sense after these two quotes:

"Until the Gog and Magog (people) Are let through (their barrier), And they swiftly swarm From every hill. Then will the True Promise Draw nigh (of fulfilment): Then behold! the eyes Of the Unbelievers will Fixedly stare in horror: 'Ah! Woe to us! we were indeed Heedless of this; nay; we Truly did wrong!' (The Noble Quran, 21:96-97)"
"The Prophet said 'The people will continue performing the Hajj and 'Umra to the Ka'ba even after the appearance of Gog and Magog.' Narrated Shu'ba extra: The Hour (Day of Judgment) will not be established till the Hajj (pilgrimage to the Mecca) is abandoned. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Pilgrimage (Hajj), Volume 2)"

Iran attacks Israel, this sparks a counter attack "from every hill", a global war ensues. Saudi Arabia allies itself with whoever is fighting against Iran and the pilgrimage to Mecca is for some reason interrupted. Then the world either ends or starts over from scratch.

I say this isn't the Apocalypse. It could be. As has been the case for millenia, only time will tell. I would always find the quotes and Hadiths I need to stamp over whatever I would like to prove no matter the case because if you believe the (Muslim) Apocalypse is next door and you base this theory on the observation of reality and truth, the world is such a large place you will always be able to find corruption, war, sin and whatever else you need to attempt to make lies become true by force.

All your treaties and diplomatic non-sense is gibberish compared to the Verb of Allah. Successful nuclear disarmament might even be a sign of the Apocalypse: how does anyone intend to close the gates of hell and stop the legions of demons with petty bullets and war machines alone?

[The Avon Lady]

[quote]"The Prophet peace be upon him said: 'The nations shall gather and team up against you (Muslims) as the predators gather and team up against their preys.
"Until the Gog and Magog (people) Are let through (their barrier), And they swiftly swarm From every hill.
Typical Islamic plagiary.

Nothing like the original (http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16136). Also, see this related article (http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/10056.htm).

[PeriscopeDepth]

Typical Islamic plagiary.

Shame on the mods if they let this one go.

PD

[The Avon Lady]

Typical Islamic plagiary.

Shame on the mods if they let this one go.

Deal with it.

[stabiz]

Oh crap, I just read some of Sea Demons posts again. I need a bath.

[Sea Demon]

Oh crap, I just read some of Sea Demons posts again. I need a bath.

For best results, do this daily. :up: :yep: :lol:

Some of you people are so ultra-sensitive. :88)

[CCIP]

All your treaties and diplomatic non-sense is gibberish compared to the Verb of Allah. Successful nuclear disarmament might even be a sign of the Apocalypse: how does anyone intend to close the gates of hell and stop the legions of demons with petty bullets and war machines alone?
Well I'll be damned if that's not a 'nuke the muslims' post right there. :-? Unless I totally misread something.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I just wonder what would happen if I said typical Jew _______ or typical black ______ and MEANT IT. I bet there'd be a reaction then, and it would certainly be warranted. So why is it not now?

PD

[waste gate]

I just wonder what would happen if I said typical Jew _______ or typical black ______ and MEANT IT. I bet there'd be a reaction then, and it would certainly be warranted. So why is it not now?

PD

You can call me a typical white man or cracker ______ and MEAN IT whenever you wish. Remember sticks and stones may break my bones but names/words will never hurt me. Its the PC disease which will hurt us in the end.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I just wonder what would happen if I said typical Jew _______ or typical black ______ and MEANT IT. I bet there'd be a reaction then, and it would certainly be warranted. So why is it not now?

PD
You can call me a typical white man or cracker ______ and MEAN IT whenever you wish. Remember sticks and stones may break my bones but names/words will never hurt me. Its the PC disease which will hurt us in the end.

My point being (somewhat idealist, I know) is that words/names do eventually lead to sticks and stones. I just don't think it's a good idea for Americans to become comfortable with saying typical _______. That's all I have to say in this thread. :)

PD

[Sea Demon]

My point being (somewhat idealist, I know) is that words/names do eventually lead to sticks and stones. I just don't think it's a good idea for Americans to become comfortable with saying typical _______. That's all I have to say in this thread. :)

PD

I think we should be truthful no matter how hard it hurts. Speak the truth, above all. Eradicate all PC nonsense, and call a horse a horse. Call a dog a dog. For those who are as insecure that would resort to throwing sticks and stones, there's something called law enforcement that deals with assault. ;) We need to use more of it.

[CCIP]

Objectivity!

That's right, let's just call religion its rightful name, "opiate for the people". I'd be perfectly happy with that term and noone would be upset. One bunch of delusional idiots ripping another bunch of delusion idiots. Hooray, noone is upset and I'm not going to hell! :doh:

[waste gate]

My point being (somewhat idealist, I know) is that words/names do eventually lead to sticks and stones. I just don't think it's a good idea for Americans to become comfortable with saying typical _______. That's all I have to say in this thread. :)

PD

I think we should be truthful no matter how hard it hurts. Speak the truth, above all. Eradicate all PC nonsense, and call a horse a horse. Call a dog a dog. For those who are as insecure that would resort to throwing sticks and stones, there's something called law enforcement that deals with assault. ;) We need to use more of it.

But now the PC madness has made up something called a 'hate crime'. So now government sanctions thought controll and SCOTUS rules that discrimination used to correct past discrimination is the law. We are lost.

[Sea Demon]

Objectivity!

That's right, let's just call religion its rightful name, "opiate for the people". I'd be perfectly happy with that term and noone would be upset. One bunch of delusional idiots ripping another bunch of delusion idiots. Hooray, noone is upset and I'm not going to hell! :doh:

Sure. There are idiots everywhere. Religious people as deluisional idiots? Why not call athiest/socialists "opiate for the blind people" then. :yep: These people continue to believe that which has been a failure for well over 100 years, ya know. Can't be more delusional than that. So I guess we're all square, ain't we? :D

[Sea Demon]

But now the PC madness has made up something called a 'hate crime'. So now government sanctions thought controll and SCOTUS rules that discrimination used to correct past discrimination is the law. We are lost.

I'm not convinced all is lost...just yet. ;)

[The Avon Lady]

I just wonder what would happen if I said typical Jew _______ or typical black ______ and MEANT IT. I bet there'd be a reaction then, and it would certainly be warranted. So why is it not now?

For what it's worth, though it won't make a difference to you: I was referring to an ideaology, not to a people.

[TteFAboB]

All your treaties and diplomatic non-sense is gibberish compared to the Verb of Allah. Successful nuclear disarmament might even be a sign of the Apocalypse: how does anyone intend to close the gates of hell and stop the legions of demons with petty bullets and war machines alone?
Well I'll be damned if that's not a 'nuke the muslims' post right there. :-? Unless I totally misread something.

Start the damnation then. :rotfl:

I'm not advocating anything at all in my post but trying to express how Ahmadinejad could seek evidence to try to prove that the Apocalypse is imminent (a matter of years) and change his actions and perspectives accordingly with that in mind. Are you familiar with the Apocalypse? I do not know if this has survived at all in post-Khomeini Iran but in traditional Islam Jesus is a saviour of the Muslims too, the Armageddon cannot be fought by the Muslims. All Muslim soldiers who join to fight on Satan's side are not Muslims any longer. Anyway, if the Apocalypse is imminent then pieces of paper have no value at all as soon as, damn I can't avoid it, all hell breaks loose. :rotfl:

So considering Ahmadinejad is certain of this but also that he's on Allah's side, how would he triumph over the multiple enemies without nuclear weapons, especially if the enemies do have them? In this sense he would be correct to see whoever proposes nuclear disarmament as a servant of the devil, preparing the path to his destruction, and would certainly use all diplomacy as a theatrical play while secretly attempting to acquire nuclear weapons.

That's what I tried to say. I thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt but chances are you haven't misread anything, most likely I have failed to express myself clearly enough.

Now if you ask me what I think of all of this, I say again: I think Ahmadinejad, Khamenei and whoever else shares the same vision are wrong. Starting by the most important element, the prophecies. Ignoring the content itself which do have a great weight on the scale, a prophecy can generally be considered to be certain the longer it has remained true, as generally speaking again many prophecies can be true only untill further notice. Example? Iraq. The Gulf wars are considered as evidence. But who said there won't be a third Gulf War? Or a fourth one? Who said that this war is the war of the prophecy? As unfair a comparison as it may be, compared to the American continent the Middle East is a very hot war zone indeed. In 2400 years power has shifted multiple times, conquerors came and left, kingdoms and nations were born, destroyed, transformed, people changed, migrated, disappeared. All more true then? Only that indeed it is very likely for the Armageddon to take place in Middle East as another but last war. But given the amount of conflicts it's extremely difficult not to say impossible to accurately pin-point it: this is the fulfilment of the prophecy. Untill further notice.

The rest is all non-sense. Forcing things to be true, ignoring facts, liying, it's a big sandbox with adults trying to fit the red square object through the blue-cylinder hole. Minus the innocence, it is done with malice. http://www.exceptionalteaching.net/grp1.html

[Fish]

. When was the last time you heard an Isreali PM say he wanted to wipe anybody off the map?
What about Mr. Avigdor Lieberman

In 2002, the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yedioth_Ahronoth) quoted Lieberman in a Cabinet meeting saying that the Palestinians should be given an ultimatum that "At 8am we'll bomb all the commercial centers...at noon we'll bomb their gas stations...at two we'll bomb their banks....”[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-0) In 2003, Ha'aretz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%27aretz) reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-1) In May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-2)
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government. He said: "World War II ended with the Nurenberg trials. The heads of the Nazi regime, along with their collaborators, were executed. I hope this will be the fate of the collaborators in [the Knesset]."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-3) In response, Arab Israeli Knesset member Ahmed Tibi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Tibi), demanded that "a criminal investigation be initiated against Lieberman for violating the law against incitement and racism".[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-NAZI) He called Lieberman "a very dangerous and sophisticated politician who has won his support through race hatred." Lieberman was cleared of racism charges by the Israeli Deputy State prosecutor, while admitting that the office objected to the content of his statement. Tibi, strongly objected to Lieberman's ministerial appointment, describing him as "a racist and a fascist". Labour minister Ophir Pines-Paz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophir_Pines-Paz), who resigned over Lieberman's appointment, echoed Tibi's remarks, saying that Lieberman was tainted "by racist declarations and declarations that harm the democratic character of Israel".[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-CHARACTER)

[The Avon Lady]

. When was the last time you heard an Isreali PM say he wanted to wipe anybody off the map?
What about Mr. Avigdor Lieberman

In 2002, the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yedioth_Ahronoth) quoted Lieberman in a Cabinet meeting saying that the Palestinians should be given an ultimatum that "At 8am we'll bomb all the commercial centers...at noon we'll bomb their gas stations...at two we'll bomb their banks....”[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-0) In 2003, Ha'aretz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%27aretz) reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-1) In May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-2)
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government. He said: "World War II ended with the Nurenberg trials. The heads of the Nazi regime, along with their collaborators, were executed. I hope this will be the fate of the collaborators in [the Knesset]."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-3) In response, Arab Israeli Knesset member Ahmed Tibi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Tibi), demanded that "a criminal investigation be initiated against Lieberman for violating the law against incitement and racism".[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-NAZI) He called Lieberman "a very dangerous and sophisticated politician who has won his support through race hatred." Lieberman was cleared of racism charges by the Israeli Deputy State prosecutor, while admitting that the office objected to the content of his statement. Tibi, strongly objected to Lieberman's ministerial appointment, describing him as "a racist and a fascist". Labour minister Ophir Pines-Paz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophir_Pines-Paz), who resigned over Lieberman's appointment, echoed Tibi's remarks, saying that Lieberman was tainted "by racist declarations and declarations that harm the democratic character of Israel".[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-CHARACTER)
What about the fact that the PLO and Hamas charters, in existance way before Avigdor Lieberman even arrived in Israel, call for the destruction of Israel?

A case of putting the cart before the horse, perhaps? Who needs context!

[kiwi_2005]

Crazy bald heads.

War, war, war.

[stabiz]

The Israeli government is just as crazy as the Palestinians, by the way.

[The Avon Lady]

The Israeli government is just as crazy as the Palestinians, by the way.
Oh, they're crazy alright but I'd still like to know from you how so?

[Fish]

. When was the last time you heard an Isreali PM say he wanted to wipe anybody off the map?
What about Mr. Avigdor Lieberman

In 2002, the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yedioth_Ahronoth) quoted Lieberman in a Cabinet meeting saying that the Palestinians should be given an ultimatum that "At 8am we'll bomb all the commercial centers...at noon we'll bomb their gas stations...at two we'll bomb their banks....”[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-0) In 2003, Ha'aretz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%27aretz) reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-1) In May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-2)
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government. He said: "World War II ended with the Nurenberg trials. The heads of the Nazi regime, along with their collaborators, were executed. I hope this will be the fate of the collaborators in [the Knesset]."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-3) In response, Arab Israeli Knesset member Ahmed Tibi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Tibi), demanded that "a criminal investigation be initiated against Lieberman for violating the law against incitement and racism".[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-NAZI) He called Lieberman "a very dangerous and sophisticated politician who has won his support through race hatred." Lieberman was cleared of racism charges by the Israeli Deputy State prosecutor, while admitting that the office objected to the content of his statement. Tibi, strongly objected to Lieberman's ministerial appointment, describing him as "a racist and a fascist". Labour minister Ophir Pines-Paz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophir_Pines-Paz), who resigned over Lieberman's appointment, echoed Tibi's remarks, saying that Lieberman was tainted "by racist declarations and declarations that harm the democratic character of Israel".[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-CHARACTER)
What about the fact that the PLO and Hamas charters, in existance way before Avigdor Lieberman even arrived in Israel, call for the destruction of Israel?

A case of putting the cart before the horse, perhaps? Who needs context!

Just answered SD's question.

[The Avon Lady]

. When was the last time you heard an Isreali PM say he wanted to wipe anybody off the map?
What about Mr. Avigdor Lieberman

In 2002, the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yedioth_Ahronoth) quoted Lieberman in a Cabinet meeting saying that the Palestinians should be given an ultimatum that "At 8am we'll bomb all the commercial centers...at noon we'll bomb their gas stations...at two we'll bomb their banks....”[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-0) In 2003, Ha'aretz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%27aretz) reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-1) In May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-2)
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government. He said: "World War II ended with the Nurenberg trials. The heads of the Nazi regime, along with their collaborators, were executed. I hope this will be the fate of the collaborators in [the Knesset]."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-3) In response, Arab Israeli Knesset member Ahmed Tibi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Tibi), demanded that "a criminal investigation be initiated against Lieberman for violating the law against incitement and racism".[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-NAZI) He called Lieberman "a very dangerous and sophisticated politician who has won his support through race hatred." Lieberman was cleared of racism charges by the Israeli Deputy State prosecutor, while admitting that the office objected to the content of his statement. Tibi, strongly objected to Lieberman's ministerial appointment, describing him as "a racist and a fascist". Labour minister Ophir Pines-Paz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophir_Pines-Paz), who resigned over Lieberman's appointment, echoed Tibi's remarks, saying that Lieberman was tainted "by racist declarations and declarations that harm the democratic character of Israel".[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-CHARACTER)
What about the fact that the PLO and Hamas charters, in existance way before Avigdor Lieberman even arrived in Israel, call for the destruction of Israel?

A case of putting the cart before the horse, perhaps? Who needs context!

Just answered SD's question.
Let me remind you that Lieberman is not an Israeli PM but a parliament seta holder and political party leader.

So, no, you have yet to answer SD's question. :nope:

[Iceman]

Crazy bald heads.

War, war, war.

You crack me up Kiwi...lol. WTH is that all about lol? Crazy Bald Heads...are you talking about Buddahist Monks?

[Fish]

[
Just answered SD's question.
Let me remind you that Lieberman is not an Israeli PM but a parliament seta holder and political party leader.

So, no, you have yet to answer SD's question. :nope:

Deputy prime minister, isn't that enough?
Avigdor Lieberman (Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): אביגדור ליברמן), also Liberman (b. 5 June (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_5) 1958 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958) in Kishinev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi%C5%9Fin%C4%83u), Moldavian SSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavian_SSR), Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union)) is a right-wing Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) politician and leader of the Yisrael Beytenu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_Beytenu) party. He has served as the Minister of Strategic Affairs and as a Deputy Prime Minister of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deputy_Prime_Minister_of_Israel#Deputy_Prime_Minis ter) since November 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2006).

[The Avon Lady]

Deputy prime minister, isn't that enough?
That's enough. :yep:

I lost track which idiot they gave the job to this time. The last idiot that has the job was Shimon Peres. The prior idiot I recall having the job was Ehud Olmert a few years ago.

Succession.

[Fish]

Deputy prime minister, isn't that enough?
That's enough. :yep:

The last idiot that has the job was Shimon Peres. :hmm: :oops:

[sonar732]

I'm just waiting for Von_Capo's response. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[Abraham]

In general, a bit of responsability and moderation comes with the job of Prime Minister (or President, in nations with the Presidential system).
Avigdor Lieberman is in my view a lunatic, infected by the same virus that earlier created Hezbollah and Hamas.
However, Lieberman is not much more than democratic proof that there is a faction of fanatics in Israel too. He'll never lead the country, because the people of Israel are - given the circumstances - on average moderate and very democratic minded.

I consider the case of Ahmadinejad far more serious.
Iran is by no means a real democracy, but far closer to a dictatorial theocracy. 'Herr' Ahmadinejad openly speaks of "wiping Israel off the face of the earth" and he or his successor might in a couple of years have the means to make his sick dream come true.
What would stop him?
A supervising fundamentalistic Shi'ite council?
A sudden streak of humanism or moderation?
An Act of God?
Decisive diplomatic action from the West and/or the major world powers? Decisive military action from the West?
From the U.S.?
From Israel?
Keep sitting on your hands hardly seems an option for the world, especially for Israel and the U.S., unless the lessons taught 70 years ago by that other 'Herr' are forgotten...

By the way, I don't see any advocacy for 'Muslim Nuking' in this thread.

[Konovalov]

In general, a bit of responsability and moderation comes with the job of Prime Minister (or President, in nations with the Presidential system).
Avigdor Lieberman is in my view a lunatic, infected by the same virus that earlier created Hezbollah and Hamas.
However, Lieberman is not much more than democratic proof that there is a faction of fanatics in Israel too. He'll never lead the country, because the people of Israel are - given the circumstances - on average moderate and very democratic minded.

I consider the case of Ahmadinejad far more serious.
Iran is by no means a real democracy, but far closer to a dictatorial theocracy. 'Herr' Ahmadinejad openly speaks of "wiping Israel off the face of the earth" and he or his successor might in a couple of years have the means to make his sick dream come true.
What would stop him?
A supervising fundamentalistic Shi'ite council?
A sudden streak of humanism or moderation?
An Act of God?
Decisive diplomatic action from the West and/or the major world powers? Decisive military action from the West?
From the U.S.?
From Israel?
Keep sitting on your hands hardly seems an option for the world, especially for Israel and the U.S., unless the lessons taught 70 years ago by that other 'Herr' are forgotten...

By the way, I don't see any advocacy for 'Muslim Nuking' in this thread.

Well constructed post and right on the mark. :yep: Oh and by the way, welcome back sir. :up:

[Abraham]

[
Well constructed post and right on the mark. :yep: Oh and by the way, welcome back sir. :up:
Thanks, thanks!

[The Avon Lady]

Avigdor Lieberman is in my view a lunatic, infected by the same virus that earlier created Hezbollah and Hamas.
Please explain the "virus infection" thingy.

[Abraham]

Avigdor Lieberman is in my view a lunatic, infected by the same virus that earlier created Hezbollah and Hamas.
Please explain the "virus infection" thingy.

I'll try to do so.
You wrote as an answer to Fish's earlier posting:
What about the fact that the PLO and Hamas charters, in existance way before Avigdor Lieberman even arrived in Israel, call for the destruction of Israel?

A case of putting the cart before the horse, perhaps? Who needs context!

I was mildly critical towards Fish's posting and by stating that Lieberman was infected by the same virus that earlier created Hezbollah and Hamas I tried to put the horse before the cart, as you suggested.
:D

The virus I meant was the PREFAT-virus, very active in especially the Middle East. (PREFAT= Political/Religious Extremism, Fanatism And Terrorism).
If you don't actively fight it, it may hit you and it is a long term killer (works through generalions...)

If this quote by Fish is correct - and I have no reason to doubt that - the man is clearly infected.
In 2003, Ha'aretz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%27aretz) reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-1) In May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-2)
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government.
By the way, drowning people in the Dead Sea is far from easy, given the buoyancy of its very salty water. The Dead Sea was probably only chosen by Mr. Lieberman because of its name.

[The Avon Lady]

If this quote by Fish is correct - and I have no reason to doubt that - the man is clearly infected.
In 2003, Ha'aretz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha%27aretz) reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-1)
Here is the original Ha'aretz article (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=315541). I don't have time now to google in Hebrew to follow up on the accuracy and context of the quote. Note the beginning of the article can't get the quote straight to begin with. Doesn't anyone know exactly what Lieberman said? :hmm: Again, googling in Hebrew will help but no time.
In May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Liberman#_note-2)
I have no problem with this quote, true or not.
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government.
Considering that Israel does not allow capital punishment, you should get an idea of the level of rhetoric Lieberman uses liberally. His essential point is that Arab Knesset members have indeed shown themselves to be literally traitors in word and deed at times of war. Not too far-fetched.

[Abraham]

...
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government.

Considering that Israel does not allow capital punishment, you should get an idea of the level of rhetoric Lieberman uses liberally.
Rethorics (or demagogism) - as history has shown - is one of the most dangerous ways of infecting masses with the PREFAT-virus.

[The Avon Lady]

...
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government.

Considering that Israel does not allow capital punishment, you should get an idea of the level of rhetoric Lieberman uses liberally.
Rethorics (or demagogism) - as history has shown - is one of the most dangerous ways of infecting masses with the PREFAT-virus.
Have you ever seen Lieberman's waisteline?

He's post-fat. Don't worry.

Anyway, relax. He's not a serious contender for anything. His recent acceptance of a deal with Olmert's party has made him look like the political mud most of the country thought of him to begin with.

[Abraham]

Have you ever seen Lieberman's waisteline?

He's post-fat. Don't worry.

Anyway, relax. He's not a serious contender for anything. His recent acceptance of a deal with Olmert's party has made him look like the political mud most of the country thought of him to begin with.

I am relaxed, Mam, or should I say Über Mam...
:D

It's just funny that you're the first I collide with after surfacing...
:rotfl:

No hard feelings from this side though...
:cool:

[Linton]

I was in the ME yesterday.It was hosing down in the Gulf and cold!I did see a nice Greyhound though!

[dean_acheson]

I don't mind Isreal having Nukes, atleast the country is ran by grown-ups..... as compared to such mature countries with Sharia law...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d8CXfv8EXeQ

I don't know any jews who have tried to convert me with commercial jets....:damn:

[The Avon Lady]

I don't know any jews who have tried to convert me with commercial jets....:damn:
Purchase 10 first class tickets on El-Al over a 2 year period and we'll throw in the 5 minute quickie conversion in the Chief Rabbinate's office absolutely free. This offer is limited so pick up the phone today. Operators are standing by to take your call.

And you thought you knew us! :nope:

[dean_acheson]

Oh my!

I am not sure what to do with that offer. Do I have to grow the funky sideburns?

;):cool:

lol. That was kinda an un P.C. post by myself!

I guess comparisons between some countries upset me. I'd never compare some countries having nukes with other countries possibly obtaining them. Just like it is ok to let some adults having firearms, but I'm not really exicited about kids running around with them....

[Yahoshua]

Or adults who act like kids for that matter.

[Abraham]

Or kids who consider themself as adults...

[dean_acheson]

lol :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[dean_acheson]

I guess I will continue this thread a bit longer....

Here is a nice article from CNN.... Right from the CAIR playbook.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/21/quran.congress/index.html

What a rip.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Chamberlain came home with a signed piece of paper, too.

So did Stalin.

Learn from history. It's repeating itself.


They both won, though :arrgh!:

[dean_acheson]

Both won what? The titles of biggest loser and biggest a@#%^*e of the 20th Century?

[U-533]

:o :huh: :roll: :doh: :88) :huh: :o :roll:
I can remember when 'profiling' aka. 'being prejudice' was quite the rage.

We never had to worry about terroists blowing themselves up and killing infidels to get to paradise.

We never feared walking the streets because trouble makers where used on chain gangs until they died or relised what the rewards were for thier actions.

I can remember when we stopped the drills for atomic bomb explosions......I think we figured it was useless being an all out attack would not be conducive to winning anything.

I guess the fear people now have about nukes stems from the fact that Muslim's have to kill Infidels to get to paradise. So what better way to assure your seat next to your god (note the little g) then to take out a few milloin Infidels.
BUUUT...if they cant nuke ya theres allways the strap on bombvest or a AK47 or maybe a knife.( yeap... Im right I just asked several people here in the park and Im correct)[except for North Korea ol' whats his name is just a nut job]

Well Im off to go do some infidel stuff with full assurence that no matter the out come I will be happy when I get there.:sunny: :sunny: :lol:

[tycho102]

I don't really have anything specific to add to this thread, so I'll just throw some current event stuff in here.

Hamas and Fatah hate each other. A power struggle would seriously help Israel's position. At this point, I'm about ready for Israel to just conquer the west bank and leave Gaza for the "Palestinians". They can keep their sections of Jordan and north Egypt and use it as a land bridge.

al-Qaeda says the Americans should be negotiating with them. These Islamic gangs are actually very responsible about letting you know when they are feeling the pressure.

The entire muslim world has been paying attention to Iraq and Lebanon. They've learned to fight "guerilla" wars, and to plan for a guerilla war. We will never again see uniformed combat soldiers unless the entire Geneva Convention treaty is nullified. There is no penalty for using non-uniformed combatants, making that the best method to conduct combat operations against "western" nations.

We should have secured the borders in Iraq. We should have pulled troops out of Japan and Korea and NATO to do it. We didn't. That is said and done, and I'm interested in the present and the future. We need to get the f*ck out of Iraq. We've got brave women and men dying over there, for the sole reason of keeping oil under $90 per barrel. I want us off oil, and if the stock market drops 5000 points to do it, that is completely acceptable to me.

I'm disgusted with both the Republicans and Democrats. I'm disgusted with our $50 trillion debt, the utter lack of physical security and the ability to deny entry on our southern border, I'm disgusted with our education system (especially in the high density cities), I'm disgusted with California's $20+ billion deficit spending every year, I'm disgusted with Diebold and ES&S and our entire system of voting records (i.e. the lack of voting records).


All of this is directly related to the middle east and jihad against the kufir. I'd like to stop paying the oil jizyah and funding jihad, and it's our entire economy and congress that has to be changed.