View Full Version : Last Chance at my Skipper stripes...
Ive tried with DW. I reeeally have. And I just dont "get it".
I havent figured out if I dont know enough about whats going on, or if I just dont like the game that much. (im thinking its the former.) But ive had DW for almost a year now I suppose, and I still find myself completely hopeless at it. Ive tried to learn all the stations and equipment, but so far with minimal success. Sure, ive won a few missions, had some fun moments of glory, but the vast majority of time has been spent wondering what the hell is going on, how to target and kill an enemy, and what the hell that DEMON display is telling me.
Now, I can safely and professionally fly an airplane in the real world. I have figured out all the sophisticated equipment in "Lock on" and "Falcon 4.0" that allows me to pinpoint a small target with a laser and guide a AGM-65 there, and destroy it, but to this day, DW evades me, terribly. :nope:
Im going to cram the books, use this forum, and use tutorials, and take one last shot at figuring this game out. Either I figure it out and get my skipper stripes, or I fail, and the game goes on ebay. :doh:
Good luck with all of that. I hope you figure out what the sticking point is because the games worth the effort. And keep posting on the forum
DAB.
PS. DEMON is telling you the speed of your target. Once you've worked out (and sometimes it takes an educated guess) what the identity of the platform is on the Narrowband sonar system, you look it up on the USNI Reference and find the T.P.K (turns per knot) figure which is usually near the top of the platform description. On Demon on the 688i, where it says Turns Per Knot, enter the figure you got from the USNI reference and then move the curser on the display to the middle of the first vertical stripe on the left. The figure in the bottom right then gives you the speed of the platform in knots. If you then go to TMA you can put in the speed in knots for the platform as one of the figures you need for a firing solution and lock that part of the solution (push the button next to knots on TMA). That makes it easier to figure out an accurate firing solution
Play with 'show truth' on and just blast them away :up:
sonar732
12-04-06, 05:23 PM
I might suggest joining a virtual navy that has a good training department or people who know their stuff to mentor you.
SeaQueen
12-04-06, 09:59 PM
Ive tried to learn all the stations and equipment, but so far with minimal success.
Naval simulators are a lot more slow-moving and abstract than flight simulators. They also involve more guess work. Perhaps we could help you more if you described a specific thing you didn't understand, or a particular problem you are having. We could expand from there. Have you tried occaisionally turning "Show Truth" on so that you can check what's going on against what you thought was going on, and building confidence that way?
My experience has been that a lot of missions are quite poorly designed. They're so poorly put together that you really can't learn much on them.
I also think it's hard sometimes to explain naval tactics without drawing pictures, but that's just me...
Yeah .. especially TMA without pictures is impossible :cool:
I figured most things out with help of the mission editor. I edited one civilian ship in 5nm distance and I tracked it. It's all much easier when they don't shoot back.
I did the same when I was unable to shoot down bombers in IL2 .. I just setup some friendlies and practiced.
Kazuaki Shimazaki II
12-05-06, 09:10 AM
I did the same when I was unable to shoot down bombers in IL2 .. I just setup some friendlies and practiced.
You are better than me at fighter games, then. When I actually had Flanker 2.5 installed on my laptop, I tried to shoot down the tanker that I was supposed to practice refuelling from (actually refuelling from it is so far over my head its not worth trying). I managed to burn up 150 rounds of cannon and the darn tanker didn't go down.
But the real thing that made me uninstall it, FYI, was a joystick issue. The joystick is fine, until you engage the autopilot (which you'd think is a great help to a lousy pilot like me). If the plane's speed wasn't just right, the nose won't be level and the elevators won't be in a neutral position. For example, say my elevators are 5 degrees up to maintain level flight. When I disengage my autopilot, the "center" position of my joystick equates to this 5 degree up angle, forcing me to push the stick forward just to keep the elevators neutral. Needless to say, any chance of realistic control goes after that.
Officerpuppy
12-05-06, 09:53 PM
It took me years to master 688i :know: So playing DW is almost like starting over again,
but don't give up, DW is a great game once you get the hang of it. :cool:
And speaking of flying, prior to getting a joystick I used to fly a 747 on Microsoft flight sim 98? with a mouse and keyboard! lol. I think I tried to take one off an aircraft carrier once, but I cant remember if I ever pulled it off at least once.
swimsalot
12-07-06, 02:56 AM
I've had F4-Allied Force for maybe a month now, and it seems way more difficult to learn than the DW platforms. If you have mastered the ability to fly the F16, while accurately using the different AA/AG radar modes, and launching a succesful attack at the proper TOT, without getting shot down by SAM or other fighters, I think you can master DW. Try to get with someone on a Voice system (ie Teamspeak) to walk you through the stations- it's alot easier to have someone verbally coach you through something than just reading it in a book.
Learning and mastering the DW is step by step process. First of, make your choice of platform and master it. The submarines have differences, so take one of them and start learning. Here are few links to some useful guides:
http://www.subguru.com/missions/SCHQ_TACMAN_PDF.zip (http://www.subguru.com/missions/SCHQ_TACMAN_PDF.zip)
http://www.subguru.com/BluebookR20.zip (http://www.subguru.com/BluebookR20.zip)
http://www.subguru.com/DW_missions/TMA.zip (http://www.subguru.com/DW_missions/TMA.zip)
http://www.tpub.com/content/combat/14308/css/14308_169.htm (http://www.tpub.com/content/combat/14308/css/14308_169.htm)
http://www.haptonstahl.org/ppt/tma_files/frame.htm (http://www.haptonstahl.org/ppt/tma_files/frame.htm)
http://www.subguru.com/DW_missions/FFG_Guide.pdf (http://www.subguru.com/DW_missions/FFG_Guide.pdf)
http://www.subguru.com/DW_missions/P3_Operational_Manual.pdf (http://www.subguru.com/DW_missions/P3_Operational_Manual.pdf)
The last two are for FFG-7 and P3-C Orion. About subs you should master the sonar first. He is your primary sensor. Start with BB, check for any contacts and mark them. If you can hear them, they are on the surface and will be strongest. Go to NB sonar screen and try to get a classification. If you have a doubts about the contact class go to snorkel depth and raise the ESM, if ships radars are turned on you will get their classification and bearing. Also, the DEMON can help you to determine the contact category. By determining the number of blades on a contact’s propeller, listening to the sounds it emits and observing the contact’s behavior you can make an educated guess as to the category of the contact.
Use the following criteria to help categorize the selected contact:
Merchant Vessels/Tankers: Typically three or four blades; noisy; often maintains predictable course.
Warships: Typically four or five-bladed propellers; quieter, smoother sound than merchant ships; possibly unpredictable course changes.
Submarines: Five, six or seven-bladed propellers; very quiet when submerged and at low speed; unpredictable course changes.
Fishing Vessels/Trawlers/Pleasure Craft: Three- or four-bladed propellers; noisy; erratic courses and speeds, frequently stopping and starting.
Finding the submarines is much harder. The primary station where you must look for them is the NB. Switch to 300 Hz frequency and watch for the first line. They will be 50 Hz for the Russian subs and 60 Hz for USA subs. Don’t expect strong line, they are faint in most cases, so adjust your monitor. In NB you always have two contacts per target. One of them is a mirror. Maneuver left or right your sub and one of the contacts will start to move. That is the mirror and you can ignore him and track another one. Check the SSP and change your depth if necessary. You can launch UUV, which will help you to estimate the contacts range and position and also is helpful in tracking incoming torpedoes…
Here is more staff, just ask away about something concrete.
Molon Labe
12-07-06, 02:28 PM
I've had F4-Allied Force for maybe a month now, and it seems way more difficult to learn than the DW platforms. If you have mastered the ability to fly the F16, while accurately using the different AA/AG radar modes, and launching a succesful attack at the proper TOT, without getting shot down by SAM or other fighters, I think you can master DW. Try to get with someone on a Voice system (ie Teamspeak) to walk you through the stations- it's alot easier to have someone verbally coach you through something than just reading it in a book.
Agreed. F4 was a lot harder to learn, at least for me. Hell, I've been flying since July, and I'm still learning new systems.
There's a bit of a difference though. The stuff you need to learn in F4 is mostly technical, and the trick is that you need to be able to recall it quickly while under pressure. DW is more about understanding the environment and being cognicant of what you know vs. what you don't. It's more of a puzzle than an exercise in memorization.
Thanks guys, lots of good stuff here....
Im plugging away tryin to learn everything onboard the LA class....Im sure ill be back with questions :up:
Driftwood
12-09-06, 08:39 AM
I've had F4-Allied Force for maybe a month now, and it seems way more difficult to learn than the DW platforms. If you have mastered the ability to fly the F16, while accurately using the different AA/AG radar modes, and launching a succesful attack at the proper TOT, without getting shot down by SAM or other fighters, I think you can master DW. Try to get with someone on a Voice system (ie Teamspeak) to walk you through the stations- it's alot easier to have someone verbally coach you through something than just reading it in a book.
Agreed. F4 was a lot harder to learn, at least for me. Hell, I've been flying since July, and I'm still learning new systems.
There's a bit of a difference though. The stuff you need to learn in F4 is mostly technical, and the trick is that you need to be able to recall it quickly while under pressure. DW is more about understanding the environment and being cognicant of what you know vs. what you don't. It's more of a puzzle than an exercise in memorization.
Excellent points made by two of the best "in the business!" Hang in there Enigma! DW is a great game and worth the effort! I've tried Falcon 4 AF and it's a great game too but I found out REAL quick that I'm a much better sub driver than I am an Airdale. If you can handle F4AF you can certainly handle DW. :up:
goldorak
12-09-06, 09:16 AM
Excellent points made by two of the best "in the business!" Hang in there Enigma! DW is a great game and worth the effort! I've tried Falcon 4 AF and it's a great game too but I found out REAL quick that I'm a much better sub driver than I am an Airdale. If you can handle F4AF you can certainly handle DW. :up:
Well to be honest F4 AF is much simpler conceptually speaking than Dw.
And I used to play F4 AF at 99% realism (except air refueling :oops: ), and I had a very hard time figuring out DW.
Mostly because of the TMA.
Its no small feat to interpret correctly tma information and have a good idea of whats going on the surface/underwater.
Now I play will all autocrew off, but it took me more than 1 year to come to this point.
Falcon 4 AF I has mastered it in less than one month.
The difference is, Im a real worl pilot, and a fighter plane nut, not when I jumped into AF 4.0, I knew about alot of the systems, what they do, what the purpose was, etc...So I had a head start, and just needed to learn how to utilize them properly. some of the stations in DW might as well be alien technology to me...
Im working on it. :up:
In NB you always have two contacts per target. One of them is a mirror.
Might help not to feed misinformation.
The towed array gives mirror contacts. Narrowband has nothing to do with that.
Chaos81
12-18-06, 03:34 PM
The towed array gives mirror contacts.
Can you or someone else, elabarate on that? I'm still VERY new at this game as well and am trying to pick up all I can.
I think I remember reading this at one point, but can't remember where or when. Why do you get a mirror contact, and how do you tell the two apart?
Wim Libaers
12-18-06, 03:46 PM
The towed array gives mirror contacts. Can you or someone else, elabarate on that? I'm still VERY new at this game as well and am trying to pick up all I can.
I think I remember reading this at one point, but can't remember where or when. Why do you get a mirror contact, and how do you tell the two apart?
You get a mirror contact because the towed array can tell you the angle between the array and incoming sounds, but not the direction. If, for example, the angle in 50°, that could be 50° to the left or 50° to the right. Finding the right one is easy: turn, and wait for the array to stabilise on the new course. When it does so, the fake contact will move by two times that angle, the real contact will not move (well, only as much as it would due to its own speed.)
Chaos81
12-18-06, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the reply, that makes perfect sense to me. I'm off to read some of the things in this thread a bit more.
That is a good pointer, cheers...
Still struggling with contacts, how to determine what im listening to, how to read the displays, etc....would be great to go on TS with someone and try it. Get a few lessons, if anyone is up to it...
We should start our own Naval academy!
Yeah .. especially TMA without pictures is impossible :cool:
I figured most things out with help of the mission editor. I edited one civilian ship in 5nm distance and I tracked it. It's all much easier when they don't shoot back
This is what im doing now. Simply setting up some targets in space, and then attempting to define one from the other, and pinpoint the positions...
SeaQueen
12-19-06, 07:07 PM
Still struggling with contacts, how to determine what im listening to, how to read the displays, etc....would be great to go on TS with someone and try it. Get a few lessons, if anyone is up to it...
How to determine what you're listening to is sometimes just a bit of guesswork. The filters might be able to narrow it down to a range of possiblities but usually the only way to know with perfect certainty is to get so close that you're endangering yourself. Usually, though, you don't need to do that if you use your head. If you're in the Norwegian Sea, for example, you can be pretty sure that you're not looking at any Chinese warships.
This is what im doing now. Simply setting up some targets in space, and then attempting to define one from the other, and pinpoint the positions...
If you have broadband on a target, you should be able to get a pretty good position on it.
So, when I raise the mast and get contacts from the link, and I see a target displayed on the map, I can opt to "Engage with MK48". dos this simply pop off a torp into the last known location of a target?
I made some progress with NB and BB today, but just scratching the surface.
The LA class has the option of listening to the towed wire, the nose, or the hull of the boat (at least thats what I determine from the diagrams on the buttons). Can anyone explain the benfits of each, and when and why i should be using each area?
I have a rare night off tonite. Ill spend the whole bloody thing staring at the sonar display. Hope you guys are around....;)
Use the guides mentioned above. No need to repeat the basics here.
Hey! It's "read the guides" guy! I've met you on, like, every forum ever! :roll:
The bow array sonar is best for close range and high frequency sound. Using the narrowband classification with this array (if you can get a signal) will be the fastest and most accurate way to classify a target, but usually if you're close enough to hear em on that and you don't know what they are, expect to hear "Torpedo in the water" before you even think about going to the fire control screen. The hull array sonar is the least sensitive sonar and works best at picking up low frequency sound. The towed array is your meat and potatoes. It's horrible at picking up high frequency noise, by it is the most sensitive array you have by an order of magnitude. You can pick up contacts as far as 10-12 nm away with this baby.\
To my knowledge, the engage with menu's launch options are smart enough to aim the weapon for an intersect with the target, so it'll lead the target a bit. (I could be wrong) One thing that this menu does not do is set your range to enable distances. A good rule of thumb is half the range to the target, plus a little for good measure. The more sure you are of your TMA solution, the longer your RTE distance can be, if your confidance is low, set the RTE to a lower level.
PeriscopeDepth
12-21-06, 03:37 AM
The Landlubber's guide is excellent for people new to DW. Download it at the one and only subguru.com.
PD
SeaQueen
12-21-06, 07:10 AM
So, when I raise the mast and get contacts from the link, and I see a target displayed on the map, I can opt to "Engage with MK48". dos this simply pop off a torp into the last known location of a target?
Sort of. The thing about using linked contacts is that you have to pay careful attention to the contact age. If it hasn't been updated frequently and the link is from an AI, then it's most likely inaccurate and the AI that reported the contact is no longer detecting it. People don't automatically update their plots like AIs do, so if a person promotes a contact to he link sometimes the contact age is not always a good indicator of it's reliability. If that's the case, then the best thing to do is just ask them.
I made some progress with NB and BB today, but just scratching the surface.
Good to hear it.
The LA class has the option of listening to the towed wire, the nose, or the hull of the boat (at least thats what I determine from the diagrams on the buttons). Can anyone explain the benfits of each, and when and why i should be using each area?
The towed array (or towed wire as you called it), is basically a long rubber hose filled with oil to keep it neutrally buoyant, and also hydrophones. The advantage of it is that because it is long, it can have lots of little hydrophones in it, which makes it very sensitive, and it also has a lower band pass. A lower band pass means it can detect lower frequency sounds. That's important because low frequency sounds (<1kHz) are the ones which suffer the least attenuation in water.
The towed array has some disadvantages, though. One of them is that every time you turn sharply, the array bends and yields wildly incorrect bearings. It can also break if you do strange things like throw the boat into reverse or go too fast.
Because the towed array typically has the longest range, that's the sensor I use most often for searching.
The sphere (nose) and the hull arrays are less sensitive. If you detect something on them, it's probably really close. They have a higher band pass than the towed array, so they can detect higher frequency sounds, albeit you have to get close to do it. The higher frequency sounds are ones that often allow you to identify a target with perfect accuracy using the filters. You don't usually need to do that, though, if you use your head. The sphere also has the ability to emit an active sonar pulse.
The advantage of using the sphere and hull arrays is that they don't bend if you turn, so if you use Ekelund ranging you don't have to worry about the bearings being wrong after a turn like you do with the towed array. Therefore it's more likely to be accurate. The sphere can see forward, the towed array cannot. They also can't be lost by doing wild maneuvers.
Thanks for all the above, fellows.
I spent hours working on it last night, and made some good progress. Im able to use the BB and NB and have had some succes in identifying my targets. (First time I heard a whale with the BB was cool, too!:up: ) Of course, a couple of times I had a torpedo coming at me before I even knew anyone was there, and got myself dropped like a bad habit, but thats how we learn, I suppose....
On one occasion I was so close to a Kilo that I could see him in my external view, yet I could not find him on the BB or NB. A little puzzled by that. He was at 2kts, so maybe he's silent?
I also kinda self taught myself how to use the incoming ping screen ( I know thats not the correct terminology, but my head is fried from 7 hours on the scope...:rotfl: ) to locate a target that is banging away with active Sonar....
So, progress. And its fun.
Thanks again for all your advice and help. Much appreciated....
:arrgh!:
goldorak
12-21-06, 11:38 AM
Yes, the Kilo at 2 knots is basically a black hole.
SeaQueen
12-21-06, 08:19 PM
Of course, a couple of times I had a torpedo coming at me before I even knew anyone was there, and got myself dropped like a bad habit, but thats how we learn, I suppose....
Yeah... torpedo evasion is a whole separate issue. The best thing you do is drop lots of countermeasures, try to put them between you and the incoming torpedo, and get as far away from the torpedo as possible while minimizing your vulnerability to it's sensors. That's three things to balance, and you'll see people here argue about exactly how to do it to the point of blows.
On one occasion I was so close to a Kilo that I could see him in my external view, yet I could not find him on the BB or NB. A little puzzled by that. He was at 2kts, so maybe he's silent?
Yes. Kilos can be extrordinarily difficult to detect acoustically. The good news is that they don't have very good sonar themselves so if you stay quiet, you'll often detect them at about the same time they detect you. This can lead to some violent exchanges of hastily fired torpedos, as I'm sure you can imagine.
I also kinda self taught myself how to use the incoming ping screen ( I know thats not the correct terminology, but my head is fried from 7 hours on the scope...:rotfl: ) to locate a target that is banging away with active Sonar....
Active intercept is really important. When I drive the KILO, it's the only acoustic system I really use an awful lot, partly because it's a good way to know exactly who the combattants are from a long way away. Anything with an active sonar is most likely something that can also shoot you.
I must be getting the hang of DW, because all I do now is complaina bout how bad some of the default missions are :hmm:
My main "hmmmm" at this point is as follows. Most of the time, I cant hear an enemy outside of 10-12 miles. This gives me a very narrow berth in missions like the Russian Rebeliion campaign mission that calls for me to witness the launcing of a Chinese missile. It drops you in about 600 square miles of ocean and tells you find the sub, which means picking up a contact within 10 miles of my boat. Thats alot of water to find a sub in, when I have had no direction from command of how or where I should search for this boat. I ended up going to PD and using the ESM to locate anything around, then diving to 150 feet and listening for what felt like forever. I only ultimatly found the sub by cheating (truth).
As for the Sonar, im quite comfortable with it now. Its amazing howit just clicks and makes sense one day! :up: The only trouble I have there is that when I have multiple contacts, I sometimes have a hard time managing them and recalling what is what. Then, ometimes I get fooled by the duplicate contacts portrayed by the towed array. This isnt such a problem with the seawolf, as the display kind of answers the question of which is the real and which is the dummy contact without my having to swing the boat around to see what moves.....
Ive also grown partial to the seawolf over the LA class. Simply for the view and feel of the systems on board. I find them alot more managable.
Now it's just about finding all the best missions and putting myself to work! I've downloaded some great single missions from Subguru, but Im looking more for full blown campaigns to play.....As in Subguru's Red Storm....
Anyway, as more questions arise, I shall be here to ask. (Demon still a little mysterious, but im getting it...)
Thanks to everyone who has helped out, it really is appreciated. You helped save me from trashing a perfectly good game! (sonalysts thanks you too.)
Seaqueen, ...Thanks. :up:
Oh, while im thinking of it....
Is my ESM signal when the mast id raised detectable by enemies?
:shifty:
ESM is a passive radar receiver. It doesn't emit any signal to the outside world. Perhaps maybe it creates a tiny bit of extra passive sonar noise due to wake. It sounds plausible, but I don't know if that's modelled. Also, I read here on the forum that masts do not reflect radar signals, so you are save from that. I'm not sure about visual detection though.
SeaQueen
12-26-06, 10:35 PM
My main "hmmmm" at this point is as follows. Most of the time, I cant hear an enemy outside of 10-12 miles.
That's pretty typical. I usually figure a convergence zone detection at ~30Nmi is long range, 10-15Nmi is medium range, and inside of 10Nmi as close range. Incidentally, approximately 10Nmi is about the range of a lot of Russian made torpedoes in the game, so I figure it's a good rule of thumb.
Also, remember that your sonar performance is influenced strongly by depth, and not just above or below the layer. Even within a surface duct there's better and worse places to be. Similarly, below the layer some places are better than others.
I guess that's a more subtle layer to the puzzle, though.
It drops you in about 600 square miles of ocean and tells you find the sub, which means picking up a contact within 10 miles of my boat. Thats alot of water to find a sub in, when I have had no direction from command of how or where I should search for this boat. [quote]
Actually it's not too bad. If you figure on a sonar range of 10 Nmi, and a search speed of about 5 kts, then you're covering 2*10Nmi*5Nmi/hr = 100Nmi^2/hr so in 6 hours, if you mowed the lawn you'd be certain of detecting him. In general, you don't do as well as that, though. It works out that in 6 hours you still have about a 63% chance of detecting him. For sub v. sub battles 6-8 hours is short.
Try Kara Sea Strategic ASW. Don't try it in one sitting, though. With ~2500Nmi to search, unless you get lucky it usually takes quite a while. You'll probably spend a lot of time listening to whales or nothing before finally locating one of the submarines.
[quote]Seaqueen, ...Thanks. :up:
Any time.
SeaQueen
12-26-06, 10:39 PM
Oh, while im thinking of it....
Is my ESM signal when the mast id raised detectable by enemies?
:shifty:
No. ESM is just listening to other radar emissions. It's like the radar warning receiver on a fighter jet. You use it in a submarine mostly when you're searching for or tracking surface ships. It's nice because it has a very long range. You might get detected in DW because you raised your ESM mast if you were a bit too shallow and broached your sail due to a high sea state. At that point, you might show up on the radar set you were monitoring!
So... yeah... most of the time people design missions around something relatively benign, though. Sea State 3 or 4 is usually what I see. I'm not sure if you can spot masts visually in DW. In multiplayer games someone who kept a sharp lookout might shot you that way.
Visual spotting of subs is only modeled in the latest (still beta, correct me if I'm wrong) LWAMI.
Masts are not detectable with radar in DW.
Masts only increase the noise, both BB and NB. It only should affect BB, but in DW all noises just increase complete emitted sound level, so the change is visible on NB too.
Anyway, masts gives just little noise. It will mostly affect your sensors (which is easy to notice).
SeaQueen
12-27-06, 07:30 AM
Visual spotting of subs is only modeled in the latest (still beta, correct me if I'm wrong) LWAMI.
So you can't just look out the window or your binoculars and notice them?
I mean AI ships spotting AI or human subs.
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