Trying to solve the no-spawn aircraft bug...

[Hitman]

I have been thinking about a way to solve the problem caused by high TC rates -no aicraft spawned from bases- and before wasting some time experimenting, I would like to know if someone before tried this: The idea is to script aircraft patrols -or make them random- like NYGM team did with the british coastal escrots, instead of having aircraft spawn from bases. Questions I have are as follows:

1.- Is it possible to script aircrafts, and not to have them be spawned from bases?

2.- Will I need to tweak range or something like that, to allow them patrolling for some time without running put of fuel?

3.- Will those aircrafts anyway be affected by the high TC bug? I know the problem is that at high TC units do many times "fly by" without the game's engine being able to react before they are out of sight. I have found no problem in stumbling upong the scripted escorts at high TC, so I guess it could work as well for aircrafts.

Please spare this veteran modder some wasted time if you know the answers...I have read many old posts about the aircrafts vs. TC problem and have not seen references to my idea.

Thanxs

[Konovalov]

Firstly, I wish you luck and hope that you meet with success in this endeavour of yours Hitman. :yep:

I myself play with high TC of 512 or 1024 always when in transit and I must say I have hardly come across an aircraft in-game which is a bit of a bummer to say the least.

Hopefully one of the many knowledgeable people here will have some answers for you which will be of benefit to your project and the whole SHIII community. :)

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, good luck and let us know what you find. It is a bummer. I have tried TC at 126 and 256 without any luck on aircraft spawning. The Only time I get the planes is in 1x tc. Not bad concidering the other day the Luftwaffen attack a escort carrier that I was shadowing!

[Stiebler]

The NYGM team looked heavily into this. As Hitman observed, NYGM uses scripted Hurricane aircraft.

Therefore it is certainly possible to use scripted aircraft, instead of spawning from an airbase. However we found a few snags, based largely around the fact that the SH3 game engine handles anything scripted internally as a *ship*. In particular, anything not defined as a warship seems to be taken internally as a merchant.

1. The aircraft are always identified as ships, when the watch officer spots them.
2. Two or more aircraft flying together are identified as a 'small convoy' (that's why NYGM no longer ever tells you of a 'small convoy', even when it really is made up of ships).
3. The 'flying-merchant-ships' (which is how the SH3 game engine sees them) lack both radar and bombs, in our testing. I spent some time trying to confirm this, and I'm speaking from memory only. It might be possible in some way to fool the 'flying-ships' into having radar or bombs, but we gave up. This is particularly important for aircraft patrolling the Bay of Biscay - our area of concern, and where we did all the 'ship-bomber' testing. Consider the effect of scripted bombers flying over the Bay at night, but only able to attack when they see a U-boat (no radar detection), and only able to attack with machine guns. Not an impossible combination, but we preferred to beef up the airbases.
4. Will scripted aircraft be subject to the same problems of non-appearance as aircraft from air bases? The answer is yes, definitely. Whether they will be less affected by high time compression than aircraft from the airbases is uncertain. I believe that scripted aircraft will be less affected than airbase aircraft, for technical reasons concerning the way they approach the U-boat, and in the light of huge testing experience with the Hurricanes.

In my opinion, the feebleness of airpower in SH3 is the game's weakest point. Aces of the Deep got it right, but AOD appeared to allow aircraft an *equal* probability of appearance anywhere within the airbase radius. SH3, we know, uses an inverse square law so that, the further the U-boat is from the base, the less-likely-squared it is to make an attack. That is, an attack from an airbase at 100 km is roughly 100*100 - 10*10 less likely than an attack at 10 nm. (Of course, other factors are counted too). While this approach makes mathematical sense, it is, unfortunately, in error nonetheless. Aircraft did not patrol randomly every inch of their patrol radius until the petrol ran out. Instead, they flew intensively over designated areas. NYGM has tried to mimick this behaviour with the Special Airbases.

I should mention in passing that I was planning to make a post on the subject of air power experiments in NYGM, all of which make depressing reading (a euphemism for 'didn't work'.). So I might as well add it here.

What concerned me was how ineffective the aircraft (Avengers) are when flying from escort carriers in SH3. In real life, these American carrier groups were extremely effective against U-boats, admittedly aided by decryption information. There are plenty of escort carriers scripted into SH3/NYGM (or RUb), but how often do you see an Avenger in the air?

What I've found are the following results:
1. Limited range (500 km) Liberators flying from a *moving* (sic) land-base - scripted into the campaign_SCR.mis file - are very effective against a U-boat moving in parallel to the moving airbase at 200 km range. (Actually I used NYGM's 'Special AirBase' for this, with associated aircraft.)
2. Avengers (650 km) flying from the same airbase (after removing the Liberators) were never seen at all at 200 km range. This is a statistical/random probability effect, so Avengers may sometimes rarely be seen at this range. However, the Avengers were often seen when the U-boat runs at 100 km from the moving land-base.
3. Avengers flying from an escort carrier, instead of the moving land-base, are just as effective/ineffective at the same ranges as the moving land-base.

It's difficult to avoid the conclusion that bombers are permitted to 'see' further than fighters in the hard code, regardless of their alleged ranges. I can't think of any way of making the escort carriers more effective, while still carrying only Avengers or fighters.

All this should really have been posted under the sticky 'NYGM Research'. Can anyone think of a sensible use for a moving land airbase?

Stiebler.

NYGM Tonnage War Mod - more than a mod; it's an experience! (http://www.wolvesatwar.org/nygm/)

[Hitman]

Many many thanks for your extensive reply, Stiebler, I appreciate very much the time you took to write it all down.:up: I was afraid of something like what you explained, and I sensed someone would be able to come with the "been there, done that", and that's the reason why I opened this topic. Spared me lot of time.

The only idea left I have to improve aircraft at high TC is to have them patrol very slowly -like a ship- f.e. at 4 knots (If an aircraft can be modded to have that minimal speed), which would increase the chances of stumbling upon it (Like it happens with escorts). Problem is I think that if the aircraft does not see you inmediately, it will probably not speed up to 300 knots, which is what would make it lethal.

Thanks

[nuras_ava]

Hi Hitman, I was just taking a look around here and decided to tell you that I love you. I mean it. MUACK!

[gouldjg]

Just a quick thought but would using SH3 commanders randomisation features help in anyway to get a scripted but dynamic killer aircraft/s.

I am no good at aircraft facts or scripting etc but I am thinking aloud that maybe that would be the way to go to get better overall air attacks if done by one whom is clued up on planes during WW2.

It would take quite a bit of initial work to get the ball rolling but if done and if possible that sounds like the best way to me.

Maybe too much work and listening to Steibler, even this may have too many faults

[bigboywooly]

Not sure how SH3 commander can help there
To utilise the random scripting SH3commander would have to load in Campaign files
All the factors can be scripted into the files as they are

But as Steibler quite rightly posted above the effects are the same

Its the carrier aircraft that are the biggest concern I think
You should not be totally safe from attack in the middle of the Atlantic late war

Real high TC is always going to play havoc with ship\aircraft appearances no matter how scripted

[ReallyDedPoet]

This would be great. Since GWX the max I TC is 256, lots of aircraft, really adds to the game. The only time I TC past 256 is when I am not in aircraft patrolled areas, or I am submerged.

[Ducimus]

What i don't understand is why i used to get SWARMED by aircraft. I remember playing SH3 in the past, and i couldnt stay on the surface for more then an hour or two hours before i got attacked by aircraft. Leaving biscay bay, id have to crash dive at least 15 times.

The kicker is, ive ALWAYS USED TIME COMPRESSION. I'm simply too damn impatient soemtimes. 512 ill use when i think ill get alot of aircraft, 1024 is my normal when im not that worried. 2048 in transatlantic transit. I remember having to carefully hit the time compression button one hit at a time instead of just mashing it repeatidly because an aircraft might pop out in between key strokes.

Seriously, heres an old patrol log, dated 03 March 06 (what mods where out then?)


04 Feb 1944
0300 Patrol 9
U-189, 2nd Flotilla
Left at: February 4, 1944, 03:00
From: Lorient
Mission Orders: Patrol grid DH47
0826 BF 56 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
0826 BF 56 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
0838 BF 56 Aircraft destroyed! HurricaneMkII Fighter Bomber
0842 BF 56 Aircraft destroyed! HurricaneMkII Fighter Bomber
05 Feb 1944
2352 BF 57 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
2352 BF 57 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
06 Feb 1944
1245 BF 81 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
1245 BF 81 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
1245 BF 81 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
1246 BF 81 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
1246 BF 81 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
1246 BF 81 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
1247 BF 81 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
1248 BF 81 Aircraft destroyed! Short Sunderland Search Plane
09 Feb 1944
1533 CG 18 Aircraft destroyed! P38 Lightning Fighter Bomber
10 Feb 1944
0817 CG 17 Aircraft destroyed! PBY Catalina Search Plane
1107 CG 17 Ship sunk! C2 Cargo, 4072 tons
1108 CG 17 Ship sunk! Small Merchant, 4022 tons
16 Feb 1944
0949 DH 41 Ship sunk! Small Merchant, 4024 tons
1017 DH 41 Ship sunk! Liberty Cargo, 7458 tons
01 Mar 1944
2013 Patrol results
Crew losses: 0
Ships sunk: 4
Aircraft destroyed: 16
Patrol tonage: 19576 tons



I dont know what happened or when, or what i was using at the time, but at some point, the aircraft threat in biscay bay turned into something laughable. I wish i remember what mod i was using (mod, or stock settings?), or if it was somethign I did at the time. Im guessing i was using close stock settings given the number of aircraft i shot down. :roll: Point being, i used TC, and got air attacks non the less.

[Ducimus]

It just occured to me one reason for seeing less aircraft thesedays might be the sensor adjustments. AI visual and/or radar were orginally fairly long in distance in stock. This may have been intentional to vector in aircraft to the players location.

With limited visbilty, and shorter radar ranges, you could have swarms of them up there, and not see very many of them unless they blundered accross your path. In testing this morning i acutally visually detected an aircraft in 4/43 in biscay bay that DID NOT see me, just kept along his course.

[Ducimus]

Reason i jumped on this thread, is because ive been working on why i havent seen squat for aircraft in GWX. Ive cruised thru biscay bay in 43 and 44 and not seen ONE. TC doesnt have much to do with it.

Now After a bit more thought, im almost 100% positve the reason im not seeing very many aircraft in GWX is because of nothing vectoring in aircraft to the players location. Not all aircraft have radar. This i beleive was intentional to keep an element of guessing involved since the players RWR is ridiciously long in range. On top of that i *think* airborne radar was reduced in range, i havent looked at it yet.


AI_visual is a poor means of detection i think. Its universal to all units, and its effected quite substantially by waves. So the easiest way to vector in planes is to equip them all with radar with its range radjusted. If i had the tweak file, id substantially reduce the players RWR ranges. The RWR current range makes planes a non factor, so it should be a "just in time" warning, and no more.

All this aside ive found a big airgap in the GWX LND layer in the biscay bay. It has to do with dates, and location. Basically only, One base only covers part of biscay bay, and it disappears before another one takes over in spain. That and most airbase's have only like 1 squadron per plane type.

[johnno74]

AI visual and/or radar were orginally fairly long in distance in stock. This may have been intentional to vector in aircraft to the players location.
Hey, you could be onto something there. IIRC (someone drew pretty diagrams in a thread somewhere, it was a good thread) the problem with aircraft at high TC is the game engine doesn't update enemy positions that frequently when they aren't nearby (within 32km I think) so at high TC, the fast-moving airplanes appear to "teleport" between points that are quite a distance apart - so even if they go right overhead, they never "appear" close enough to you to detect you.

Maybe if the aircraft AI visual ranges were beefed back up to stock (higher than RL values), but the freq of aircraft was reduced (to below RL values) to compensate we'd get aircraft attacks again?

This could make travelling at high TC quite risky tho, the aircraft would probably end up appearing very close to your sub...

[johnno74]

AI_visual is a poor means of detection i think. Its universal to all units, and its effected quite substantially by waves.

Oh, so the ai_visual setting is global across ships and aircraft? Thats not so good, I think GWX has the balance of ships visually spotting you about right (although I think sometimes they are a bit good at spotting your scope in fine weather...

Maybe thats why the RWR range in the stock game is ludicrisly short - to enable aircraft to spot you, without you being aware of it.

[bigboywooly]

Rubini has been working on the Biscay are
Its difficult to place the bases so that they dont attack the player ports non stop

I was attacked 5 times by 9 aircraft in the bay in 43 with the new files a couple of days ago

[Ducimus]

Well hurry up guys :lol:

While im waiting for that fix, ill keep pluging along on my own. If i have it nailed down right in my mind, i should have this puppy done in about 30 mins after i get home from work. :88)

[bigboywooly]

lol its done but will be out in the Jan update

[cobalt]

Maximum Aircraft Range=2000 ;[>0] in kilometers
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.2 ;[>0] Modifier for poor airbase (carrier) rating
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.6 ;[>0] Modifier for novice airbase (carrier) rating
Competent Airbase Modifier=1.4 ;[>0] Modifier for competent airbase (carrier) rating
Veteran Airbase Modifier=2.4 ;[>0] Modifier for veteran airbase (carrier) rating
Elite Airbase Modifier=3.0 ;[>0] Modifier for elite airbase (carrier) rating
Night Modifier=0.2 ;[>0] Modifier on strike probability at night
Default Air Strike Probability=35 ;[>0] Default probability to send an airstrike from a airbase (carrier)
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=25 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a radio message sent
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=50 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a contact message sent
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=40 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on player detection
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] decrease from an increased probability to default one on each air session
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=20 ;[>0] steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval(90sec)


mess around with these settings in airstrke.cfg. you can make it so they attack you constantly.

[bigboywooly]

Yes well elite aircraft dont spawn from bases
lol

Another SH3 special

The balance is getting enough aircraft to spawn at high TC without being swamped at low TC

[Ducimus]

Theres more to it then just the airstrike.cfg. ;)

After i get done with my own fix for this, ill probably have to tone it down. I have like 2 to 4 squadrons in places where there was just one. Increased aircraft range, and Also changed airbase placement a wee bit. Of course this is all assuming im right about radar being used to vector planes in. :roll: The air sensor files being next on my list.

[cobalt]

Theres more to it then just the airstrike.cfg. ;)


with my own experience i find it very effective messing around with the airstrife cfg

i found changing the logic steps seconds to a lower amount increases the chances ( i believe this is how often the airstrike possibility is run)

changing the airbase modifiers to a higher number increases it

changing the default probabability higher changes it

[bigboywooly]

I think what Ducimus is saying is that if you have all the aircraft in the game spawn in the Biscay and they are not detecting you ( radar etc ) then it doesnt matter

[Ducimus]

@ cobalt
I was along the same lines of thinking until i started to compare different versions of the file. One version came from my own mod collection i used to run and i KNOW i had aircraft attacks in that one. Comparing it to GWX's, wasn't that much of a difference. Thats when i started looking at other factors like number of squadrons, aircraft range, base placement, and sensors.

@bigboywooly
Yup. pretty much.

[cobalt]

ahh :)

[Ducimus]

http://www.lady-jo.de/a-team/charaktere/bilder/hannibal2.jpg

I love it when a plan comes together.

Expect a release soon. Should hold people over until the GWX fixes get published. Gonna run a few more tests in biscay bay, but so for 1943 is looking spot on to me. BUAHAHAHAHHAHAH.

[JScones]

Not sure how SH3 commander can help there
To utilise the random scripting SH3commander would have to load in Campaign files
All the factors can be scripted into the files as they are

But as Steibler quite rightly posted above the effects are the same

Its the carrier aircraft that are the biggest concern I think
You should not be totally safe from attack in the middle of the Atlantic late war

Real high TC is always going to play havoc with ship\aircraft appearances no matter how scripted
Yeah, I wouldn't bother using SH3Cmdr for any campaign file randomisation - the ME is sufficient for that (although if you did use SH3Cmdr you wouldn't need to replace whole campaign files, you could simply insert changes into the existing files just like you do with any other file).

But SH3Cmdr *might* be useful for randomising aspects in all the "other" related files like airstrike.cfg etc etc.

[Hartmann]

Yes well elite aircraft dont spawn from bases
lol

Another SH3 special

The balance is getting enough aircraft to spawn at high TC without being swamped at low TC

Perhaps changing the elite to veterans can work