View Full Version : Britain's frantic rush towards a fully fledged surveillance society
Why are people in England want the ID card I ask? These people are willing to give up there freedom for security, which is better known as slavery. Yes as soon as I get my ID card and the RFID I will be safe, what a lode of rubbish that thinking will bring about the end of democracy and freedom.
As far as I am concerned the present Labour Government under the leadership of Tony Blair has crossed the line, the police can arrest you for anything and Tony Blair believes he has the right to force us to carry the ID Card. I here five centres are ready to take your info and more are on the way. I will never carry the ID card; I reject the database state and its Big Brother 1984.
Surveillance is really getting under my skin (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1951707,00.html)
Reject the database state.
Ditto STEED I will never carry an ID card. I would rather go to prison along with thousands of others who will repel this repressive regime.
The other thing that worries me about the under the skin implants that can track is is I have heard of parent in the USA lining up to have their children microchipped.
Ever heard of Gary McKinnon? He hacked into the (I think NSA database) and saw pictures of UFOs and other things not of this earth. Learning this from a hacker's handbook as well.
The spooks also use ECHELON and PROMIS to read our emails and listen to our conversations. No doubt they even read this forum!
kiwi_2005
11-20-06, 06:45 AM
ID card? oh thats what your sig is about:88)
Is this card compulsory or can you choose to have it or not?
Im asking cause if it happens in your country no doubt we will follow we seem to copy what you brits do. All i know is their be alot of blackmarket cards coming out if it happend here.
The Noob
11-20-06, 06:51 AM
I say no to id card and i say no to microchips. If they want to force this on my, they can royally suck my @&$%/§!
We need another Revolution.
The Avon Lady
11-20-06, 07:01 AM
I have no problems with an ID card. In Israel, everyone carries them. No problem. I think the phobia against them is just that - a phobia.
RFID chips that can be used for tracking are a definite no-no, however. :nope:
Tony Blair is lying to all of us, there are no benefits too the ID card what so ever, this card will take us one step nearer too slavery. You only got too look around you now the police have the power too arrest you without question, spy cameras are all over the place and the Government is slowly taking your freedom away from you. And all this is done in the name of democracy!
Sorry no, this is the act of an government that has crossed the line. Have they forgotten they work for us we are the one's who voted them in. What gives them the right to change the rules? Anyone caught shouting out “we are living in a police state” outside the House of Commons is soon arrested, so much for freedom of speech.
The ID card is a form of control and that control is your information which will be stored on a database which will mark the end of your privacy and freedom. And don't forget the cost of this card which you will have too paid for.
Why any of us should be forced to give the state information about ourselves? This information will be stored onto a National Identity Register resulting in the creation of a National Identity Register Number for all of us.
This database will not be secure due too the fact some 400,000 civil servants won there case in the high court this year to view personnel details about you and I.
The whole system is open to abuse by the very people we vote for. I believe in freedom of speech and democracy but all of this is slowly being swept away by the state. You have the power too bring this to an end it's your choice freedom or slavery, democracy or dictatorship.
There was a guy on R4 this morning talking to John Humphrey's about all of this:
Car registration plate recognition speed cameras - keep your registration on file for 3 months after you are 'snapped'.
London underground tracks your movements on a certain ticket (you have name + address to get one) and lists your address and travel movements, kept information about these things for 2-3 months and is available on demand by police.
National ID cards - will be logged everytime your ID is checked - who, when, where, how many times etc this information is kept on record permanently...
let me see now Mr Jumpy, you've been tagged as being 'checked' 5 times more than what we consider to be 'normal inspection usage time' would you care to explain why? and with no satisfactory explanation, the Nu-Stazi Blairforce will be keeping tabs on me with 'monitors' recording my every movement and detail.
Sounds a bit over the top, but little steps do great mistakes start, I for one am not looking forwards to this, especially when Blair is saying things in public like all children should be tagged and have their DNA/biometric stuff taken at birth.
If I ever have kids, I'll be very suspicious about any tests the hospital take, for such a natinoal DNA database to succeed then hospitals would have to be complicit in the collation of samples for the register.
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8422/signs119ml4.jpg
^ says it all lol
XabbaRus
11-20-06, 07:59 AM
It's not really the ID card but what the govt can di with them Avon.
Every little detail of your life will be on it tobe accessed by god knows what civil servant in the uk.
I fully agree with Steed here. The laugh of it is if they introduce ID cards here I might go back to Russia.....
I don't get it. Most polls I have seen are against the cards, the cost os way too high but labour are obsessed with it.
FWIU the polic wuold have the powers to stop you on the street and make you produce our ID. I don't have to prove to anyone who I am just walking down the street.
The Avon Lady
11-20-06, 09:04 AM
It's not really the ID card but what the govt can di with them Avon.
Every little detail of your life will be on it tobe accessed by god knows what civil servant in the uk.
NOTE: Israeli ID cards are not magnetic or electronic at all. No barcode either. Just a legal ID card with name, pic, birthdate, town of residence, etc. Obviously quite unintrusive compared to what I now understand is being planned in the UK.
Yes the British ID card will be a lot different from your bulk standard card and this card is a violation of my freedom and rights from my point of view. When I'm in prison along with the rest of the country who can see though the government lies just like to remind those of you who see this card as a good thing, you will have to carry it on you all the time, you can not use the old excuse "Sorry I left it at home" that will not work on the police as they give you a on the spot penalty some where up to £200.
I think if Labour win the next election and it looks like they will, this ID card will be top of there list. So watch out.
TteFAboB
11-20-06, 09:54 AM
It's not really the ID card but what the govt can di with them Avon.
Every little detail of your life will be on it tobe accessed by god knows what civil servant in the uk.
NOTE: Israeli ID cards are not magnetic or electronic at all. No barcode either. Just a legal ID card with name, pic, birthdate, town of residence, etc. Obviously quite unintrusive compared to what I now understand is being planned in the UK.
Nope. Your "phobia" theory only stands if we ignore the most fundamental fact: Israel actually needs to identify people and stop them at the checkpoints. We have to make concessions in times of war, no wonder that dictators like unnecessary wars so much.
While there are a few thousand (dozens of thousand?) subversive elements seeking to blow and murder people up in Britain, this number isn't high enough to justify tagging millions of innocent Brits with more than their name. If it were affordable the card would even have their DNA on it.
This entire thing is inverted. Have you all forgotten that the government serves you and not the other way around? Who the hell does this little elite thinks they are to tag you like cattle? It's the politicians who should get an implant under their skin, especially if it had a voice recorder so that they can't practice any corruption without the rest of us knowing. They should also be forced to wear glasses with a camera so that we know where they go and what they do at all times. A politician with horrible eating habits will be demoralized if he proposes or agrees with voting on food regulations for example.
Reverse it. Tag the politicians.
Captain Nemo
11-20-06, 11:10 AM
Yes the British ID card will be a lot different from your bulk standard card and this card is a violation of my freedom and rights from my point of view. When I'm in prison along with the rest of the country who can see though the government lies just like to remind those of you who see this card as a good thing, you will have to carry it on you all the time, you can not use the old excuse "Sorry I left it at home" that will not work on the police as they give you a on the spot penalty some where up to £200.
I think if Labour win the next election and it looks like they will, this ID card will be top of there list. So watch out.
If you've got nothing to hide why would you be worried about the introduction of ID cards? I do agree that we shouldn't have to pay for them but in principle I have no objection.
I don't think Labour have got the next election in the bag yet.
Nemo
If you've got nothing to hide why would you be worried about the introduction of ID cards?
Nemo
I got nothing to hide, I object to the Government Database state this country is becoming, as for the ID card as I said it's not your bulk standard ID card.
Captain Nemo
11-20-06, 11:36 AM
I got nothing to hide, I object to the Government Database state this country is becoming, as for the ID card as I said it's not your bulk standard ID card.
But information on us is already held on many government databases what difference is one more going to make? OK the card will carry a lot more information than just our photograph and name, so what. As I said earlier unless you wish to hide something or do something criminal what really do you have to worry about? BTW I don't agree with a £200 fine for not having the card on you and I don't think this will happen. Perhaps something like having to produce your ID card within seven days at a police station (much like when you are pulled over in a car by the police and don't have your drivers licence on you) will suffice. And at the end of the day what is the likelyhood of being stopped for your ID card? With police resources stretched as they are I'm sure they will have other things to contend with.
Nemo
Sailor Steve
11-20-06, 12:05 PM
The United States doesn't have a national ID card, but every state issues them. If you don't have a driver's license you can get a straight ID card. The good news is it's used when you need to prove who you are, and you don't have to carry it with you to identify yourself to the authorities. The cops sometimes think you do, but there have been several cases in which the courts have upheld citizens' rights to not have one.
Kapitan
11-20-06, 12:32 PM
Spot on steed one of my guys got fined £50 last friday for being drunk and disorderly dispite the fact he was at work driving a lorry the only reason he got nicked was because he was argueeing with a woman and he stutters.
TteFAboB
11-20-06, 01:02 PM
Captain Nemo raised a very important point:
But information on us is already held on many government databases what difference is one more going to make?
If the government already knows so much and can identify you so easily, why take this one more step? Is there ever too much? Or not enough?
If the justification is to help fight crime ("unless you wish to hide something or do something criminal") with "police resources stretched as they are" how would this new super-card help with that if "they will have other things to contend with."? Even further "at the end of the day what is the likelyhood of being stopped for your ID card"? Seems like it would be completely useless or redundant.
It's common to think that the politicians must be taking a share from the card production. But if you really think about it, it's the wallet makers that want this thing pushed: you'll need one extra slot to store your card. If you have it, good for you, if not, time to buy a new wallet.
As I said earlier unless you wish to hide something or do something criminal
Well Nemo answer this one.
So you will not object to a government spy camera in every room of your house, including your bedroom, linked back to a police monitoring station? Apparently a lot of crime goes on behind closed doors. Child abuse, criminals conspiring, thieves dividing up their loot, drug dealers etc. The police could clear up a lot of crime with these new powers. Surely if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear?"
This has more to do with the database This information will be stored onto a National Identity Register resulting in the creation of a National Identity Register Number. What gives this government the right to spy on you? We live in a democracy and the government is here to work for us not the other way round. As I have pointed at the whole system can and will be open to abuse.
Do you want the police knocking on your door and arrested you for something which you did not do? All because someone had used your information for there own purposes.
It's not far fetched at all it is possible and once you got your card what next the RFID to be implanted into your body? You can not tell me that is democracy that is slavery.
Uggggh. :nope:
No good civilisation, must go back to forest.
(But folks like Blair et al would tag you anyway). :down:
The United States doesn't have a national ID card, but every state issues them. If you don't have a driver's license you can get a straight ID card. The good news is it's used when you need to prove who you are, and you don't have to carry it with you to identify yourself to the authorities. The cops sometimes think you do, but there have been several cases in which the courts have upheld citizens' rights to not have one.
I thought by 2008 we were supposed to swing them into action as well Sailor ?
Story... http://news.com.com/National+ID+cards+on+the+way/2100-1028_3-5573414.html
666
What's trippy is the logic of having such technology and the advantages are mind boggling and a good sell to the people...tag your children with the chips and feel safer about them being kidnapped...put all the money on this system and put out of business..."Over Night" All organized crime ...except the biggest mob that is the governments....it really can solve alot of problems and that is what's so scary it's such a damn good sell.
SUBMAN1
11-20-06, 03:42 PM
I have no problems with an ID card. In Israel, everyone carries them. No problem. I think the phobia against them is just that - a phobia.
RFID chips that can be used for tracking are a definite no-no, however. :nope:
I have a problem with it. To drive on a state owned public street, maybe, to walk the street, hell no! I want to live in freedom and when I am starting to have to do things for the state when I simply leave the house, then I no longer have that freedom, and I live in a state policed world. No other way to describe it. I carry my ID almost daily already, but I do not want to be forced to carry it!
-S
PS. THat is not a phobia. Its simply about freedom to live my life.
The Avon Lady
11-20-06, 11:47 PM
I have no problems with an ID card. In Israel, everyone carries them. No problem. I think the phobia against them is just that - a phobia.
RFID chips that can be used for tracking are a definite no-no, however. :nope:
I have a problem with it. To drive on a state owned public street, maybe, to walk the street, hell no! I want to live in freedom and when I am starting to have to do things for the state when I simply leave the house, then I no longer have that freedom, and I live in a state policed world. No other way to describe it. I carry my ID almost daily already, but I do not want to be forced to carry it!
-S
PS. THat is not a phobia. Its simply about freedom to live my life.
I hate to break the news to you but even with all the problems we've got here, neither my husband, children nor myself have undergone any ID checks, except at border crossings, the random and occassional (about 2 years ago last I recall) police secuirty check roadblock (where they actually ask you specifically for drivers license and car registration), etc. Generally, the same is true for everyone we know. That's not to say there aren't other privacy-related problems here but the ID card is irrelevant to those.
I really don't feel I've lost my freedom because I tote another plastic laminated card in my purse. Now, if I could clean out the other 10 kilo of irrelevant junk that's accumulated therein, I'd really be free! :yep:
I say this as a native born US citizen, where unkwown forces made me carry my Loehmann's card wherever I shopped. :88)
I have a problem with it. To drive on a state owned public street, maybe, to walk the street, hell no! I want to live in freedom and when I am starting to have to do things for the state when I simply leave the house, then I no longer have that freedom, and I live in a state policed world. No other way to describe it. I carry my ID almost daily already, but I do not want to be forced to carry it!
-S
PS. THat is not a phobia. Its simply about freedom to live my life.
I once had this discussion with a German dude on another forum and he had a very interesting viewpoint on the subject.
He didn't see his ID card as a threat to his freedom, he saw it like a membership card. You see an ID card as a tool of oppression, but he saw it as a shield against oppression. Proof to anyone who saw it, especially the government that he was a full citizen of his country and therefore entitled to all the rights and privileges it entails.
I'm not saying either viewpoint is right but it's an interesting outlook none the less.
The Avon Lady
11-21-06, 01:26 AM
I have a problem with it. To drive on a state owned public street, maybe, to walk the street, hell no! I want to live in freedom and when I am starting to have to do things for the state when I simply leave the house, then I no longer have that freedom, and I live in a state policed world. No other way to describe it. I carry my ID almost daily already, but I do not want to be forced to carry it!
-S
PS. THat is not a phobia. Its simply about freedom to live my life.
I once had this discussion with a German dude on another forum and he had a very interesting viewpoint on the subject.
He didn't see his ID card as a threat to his freedom, he saw it like a membership card. You see an ID card as a tool of oppression, but he saw it as a shield against oppression. Proof to anyone who saw it, especially the government that he was a full citizen of his country and therefore entitled to all the rights and privileges it entails.
I'm not saying either viewpoint is right but it's an interesting outlook none the less.
That's sort of the point I'm trying to make. Assuming an ID card with no computer readable data on or in it, the card itself is not what determines your freedom. It's the laws that do and those need not have anything to do with an ID card.
Again, in principle I agree that any electronic/magnetic cards that contain more than the very general info printed on the card or that can identify your movement should be protested against. But an ID card which is similar to a driver's license is only as harmful as the police powers granted by the state.
Captain Nemo
11-21-06, 06:42 AM
As I said earlier unless you wish to hide something or do something criminal
Well Nemo answer this one.
So you will not object to a government spy camera in every room of your house, including your bedroom, linked back to a police monitoring station? Apparently a lot of crime goes on behind closed doors. Child abuse, criminals conspiring, thieves dividing up their loot, drug dealers etc. The police could clear up a lot of crime with these new powers. Surely if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear?"
This has more to do with the database This information will be stored onto a National Identity Register resulting in the creation of a National Identity Register Number. What gives this government the right to spy on you? We live in a democracy and the government is here to work for us not the other way round. As I have pointed at the whole system can and will be open to abuse.
Do you want the police knocking on your door and arrested you for something which you did not do? All because someone had used your information for there own purposes.
It's not far fetched at all it is possible and once you got your card what next the RFID to be implanted into your body? You can not tell me that is democracy that is slavery.
Are spy cameras and implanted electronic chips part of the ID card package then? Steed I think you are going over the top with the 1984 scenario. Identity theft is happening now without ID cards in operation, so I don't see that they would increase crime in this area in fact they might even have the opposite effect. What have we really to fear from a piece of plastic with details on it to prove who we are? The only people that would need to worry are those who shouldn't be here in the first place. As mentioned in earlier posts the ID card will show that you are a proud citizen of the UK and are entitled to the benefits that the country offers.
Nemo
Godalmighty83
11-21-06, 06:57 AM
Why are so many people in England want the ID card I ask? (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1951707,00.html)
good job the majority are against id cards then isnt it.
Kapitan
11-21-06, 06:59 AM
This is just one more piece of plastic to be cloned by identity thiefs.
Captain Nemo
11-21-06, 07:09 AM
Why are so many people in England want the ID card I ask?
good job the majority are against id cards then isnt it.
How do you know that?
Nemo
I already have enough identification to prove who I am if required to, but I'll be damned if I have to show my 'papers' to some snotty little oik in a uniform in the middle of the street. The National Id card is a typical example of bad policy making, a red herring if you will, designed to show that Blair is being tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime. Realistically it will make sod all difference to the safety and security of the general public. What it will do is cost the taxpayer billions of pounds better spent elsewhere, not to mention the fact that this system (like all others of this type) is wide open to the same abuse the rest of these schemes suffer from.
In exactly the same way as a previous government banned the legal possession and use of handguns because of a couple of nutters lost their marbles, citing that banning all handguns would reduce gun crime etc. Well, the criminals still have guns and still shoot each other, the police and the general public, with an undaunted vigour.
The National Identity Card proposal is doomed to failure for exactly the same reasons which now mean that the UK Olympic pistol target shooting team cannot train on mainland UK. It is ill thought out and ill advised and is merely paying lip-service to some pie-in-the-sky political idealist, vote grabbing hack... all at the expense and inconvenience of law abiding folk like you and me.
Far better for the various departments (criminal and governmental and local authority eg benefit fraud etc) who's competence has been called into question when dealing with basic everyday operation and crime on all levels, be addressed and corrected with a little common sense instead of this blitz of inept legislation and PC focus groups which Labour traditionally are so keen on.
There is no 'magic bullet' to cure the social and cultural problems we have today, the sooner the politicos realise this the better. But you can sort of forgive them for wanting to be 'the one' to solve all of society's evils in a blaze of flashbulbs and glory. No doubt if I was a self-serving egomaniac I'd feel exactly the same. :lol:
/soap-box
Well Nemo answer this one.
So you will not object to a government spy camera in every room of your house, including your bedroom, linked back to a police monitoring station? Apparently a lot of crime goes on behind closed doors. Child abuse, criminals conspiring, thieves dividing up their loot, drug dealers etc. The police could clear up a lot of crime with these new powers. Surely if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear?"
Still waiting for an answer to above
Are spy cameras and implanted electronic chips part of the ID card package then?
Why dose this country have more spy cameras than any other country's?
The ID card will be a biometric card of course it will have a electronic chip in it.
Steed I think you are going over the top with the 1984 scenario.
As of Jan 1st 2006 the police can arrest you without due course reason.
As a suggestion see how long you can stand outside Parliament protesting before the police turn up, feel free to try it.
Identity theft is happening now without ID cards in operation, so I don't see that they would increase crime in this area in fact they might even have the opposite effect.
I'm not talking about crime in your area.
What have we really to fear from a piece of plastic with details on it to prove who we are?
It's about the database state set up by this government, have you forgotten they are here to work for you not the other way around.
The only people that would need to worry are those who shouldn't be here in the first place.
Here's the answer
Immigrants and asylum seekers are already subject to stringent ID checks and must have their fingerprints taken etc. Illegal immigrants often arrive with no ID whatsoever, having shredded their passports in an attempt to become faceless and backgroundless. A National ID Card will do precisely nothing to stop this problem. Many illegal immigrants knowingly face death to get to safer countries. Would ID cards stop people who are that desperate?
As mentioned in earlier posts the ID card will show that you are a proud citizen of the UK and are entitled to the benefits that the country offers.
Why should I be proud of this ID Card? Seems to me other forum members from the U.K. are also against this card.
Why are so many people in England want the ID card I ask?
good job the majority are against id cards then isnt it.
How do you know that?
Nemo
Here's a example.
76% Of Brits Reject ID Card
Paul Routledge London Mirror (http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=id-card-system-&method=full&objectid=18109815&siteid=94762-name_page.html)
Friday, November 17, 2006
JUST for the record: readers of the Yorkshire Post were asked in a phone-in poll if Identity Cards should be made compulsory. Seventysix out of 100 said "No", and 24 per cent said "Yes".
Remember that, next time government ministers claim - as they always do - that the overwhelming majority of Britons support the introduction of a compulsory ID card system.
I already have enough identification to prove who I am if required to, but I'll be damned if I have to show my 'papers' to some snotty little oik in a uniform in the middle of the street.
Well said jumpy :rock:
Why the heck do we need this ID card when we got plenty of ID now.
Captain Nemo
11-21-06, 09:18 AM
Well Nemo answer this one.
So you will not object to a government spy camera in every room of your house, including your bedroom, linked back to a police monitoring station? Apparently a lot of crime goes on behind closed doors. Child abuse, criminals conspiring, thieves dividing up their loot, drug dealers etc. The police could clear up a lot of crime with these new powers. Surely if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear?"
Still waiting for an answer to above
Are spy cameras and implanted electronic chips part of the ID card package then?
Why dose this country have more spy cameras than any other country's?
The ID card will be a biometric card of course it will have a electronic chip in it.
Steed I think you are going over the top with the 1984 scenario.
As of Jan 1st 2006 the police can arrest you without due course reason.
As a suggestion see how long you can stand outside Parliament protesting before the police turn up, feel free to try it.
Identity theft is happening now without ID cards in operation, so I don't see that they would increase crime in this area in fact they might even have the opposite effect.
I'm not talking about crime in your area.
What have we really to fear from a piece of plastic with details on it to prove who we are?
It's about the database state set up by this government, have you forgotten they are here to work for you not the other way around.
The only people that would need to worry are those who shouldn't be here in the first place.
Here's the answer
Immigrants and asylum seekers are already subject to stringent ID checks and must have their fingerprints taken etc. Illegal immigrants often arrive with no ID whatsoever, having shredded their passports in an attempt to become faceless and backgroundless. A National ID Card will do precisely nothing to stop this problem. Many illegal immigrants knowingly face death to get to safer countries. Would ID cards stop people who are that desperate?
As mentioned in earlier posts the ID card will show that you are a proud citizen of the UK and are entitled to the benefits that the country offers.
Why should I be proud of this ID Card? Seems to me other forum members from the U.K. are also against this card.
In answer to your first question, as mentioned in my earlier post, your well over the top with your 1984 scenario. Where would the resources come from to monitor each camera in each room of each home in the UK? It won't happen so there's nothing to object to.
On your second point, are they really spy cameras or there to try and prevent crime? I think the latter is the case (although to be honest I'm not sure if they actually prevent crime, but are good at presenting evidence to a court). I was referring to a chip implanted into your body to track you rather than a chip on the card. I have no doubt that a chip will be on the card.
On your third point, I agree that being arrested without reason is wrong (but before this they would have you on a trumped up charge anyway). It's also true about not being able to protest outside Parliament for long before being carted off to the nick. But is this as bad as 1984, I think not.
Point four, nor was I talking about crime in my area, I was referring to that aspect of crime.
Point five, as mentioned before there is so much info already held on each individual in the UK on databases what difference is one more going to make.
Point six, asylum seekers should be interned at point of entry into the UK and sent back to where they came from if they haven't got a good case to stay. I agree that the ID card wouldn't stop them coming but it might help in tracking them down if they try and disappear amongst the UK population.
Point seven, I'm not saying you should be proud of the card, but proud to be a UK citizen.
Nemo
The case is this the RFID will be next after the ID card so if we the people sit back and say yes give me the card, this means the powers to be have already one there case for the RFID. I'm not saying the RFID will happen tomorrow or next year but the ID card will make it easy for those who want to push the RFID on to us.
Are you willing to pay for the ID card any where up to £200 for the card?
Captain Nemo
11-21-06, 09:47 AM
The case is this the RFID will be next after the ID card so if we the people sit back and say yes give me the card, this means the powers to be have already one there case for the RFID. I'm not saying the RFID will happen tomorrow or next year but the ID card will make it easy for those who want to push the RFID on to us.
Are you willing to pay for the ID card any where up to £200 for the card?
Excuse my ignorance, but what is RFID?
As mentioned in an earlier post, I would not be willing to pay any amount of money for the card and I also don't agree with an on the spot fine for not having it on you if asked to show it. My view is if the government want you to have it the card should be funded by the Treasury.
Nemo
The RFID is all around you now.
RFID stands for Radio Frequency IDentification, a technology that uses tiny computer chips smaller than a grain of sand to track items at a distance.
And yes the human implant version is here and in use.
Captain Nemo
11-21-06, 10:00 AM
The RFID is all around you now.
RFID stands for Radio Frequency IDentification, a technology that uses tiny computer chips smaller than a grain of sand to track items at a distance.
And yes the human implant version is here and in use.
Steed, thanks for enlightening me.
Nemo
Just to give you a balanced information, not pro or anti.
click the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID
TteFAboB
11-21-06, 11:22 AM
I once had this discussion with a German dude on another forum and he had a very interesting viewpoint on the subject.
He didn't see his ID card as a threat to his freedom, he saw it like a membership card. You see an ID card as a tool of oppression, but he saw it as a shield against oppression. Proof to anyone who saw it, especially the government that he was a full citizen of his country and therefore entitled to all the rights and privileges it entails.
I'm not saying either viewpoint is right but it's an interesting outlook none the less.
Makes sense. If all men are not created equal and if to have your rights recognized you need to prove you are a number registered on the office of a nation-state then that sounds perfectly reasonable, it also means that a German without an ID card cannot prove he deserves those rights.
Sailor Steve
11-21-06, 12:17 PM
The United States doesn't have a national ID card, but every state issues them. If you don't have a driver's license you can get a straight ID card. The good news is it's used when you need to prove who you are, and you don't have to carry it with you to identify yourself to the authorities. The cops sometimes think you do, but there have been several cases in which the courts have upheld citizens' rights to not have one.
I thought by 2008 we were supposed to swing them into action as well Sailor ?
Story... http://news.com.com/National+ID+cards+on+the+way/2100-1028_3-5573414.html
666
What's trippy is the logic of having such technology and the advantages are mind boggling and a good sell to the people...tag your children with the chips and feel safer about them being kidnapped...put all the money on this system and put out of business..."Over Night" All organized crime ...except the biggest mob that is the governments....it really can solve alot of problems and that is what's so scary it's such a damn good sell.
I have a friend who fought the system. When he put his kids into school the administration kept telling him they HAD to have Social Security cards. He kept insisting they show him the specific law that said so. End result: his kids didn't get SS cards until they got jobs, because of course the government takes money from your paycheck for Social Security.
Ever since the "walking man" incident (a black man was stopped and questioned in the early '70s for jogging through Beverly Hills. When he had no ID they arrested him.) I've had a fair amount of confidence in the courts to uphold my right not to identify myself. A national drivers license doesn't worry me too much. A mandatory ID card could mean a new revolution.
Looks like U.K. GP's are not in favour of there own N.H.S database.
GPs threaten to snub NHS database (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6167924.stm)
Gizzmoe
11-21-06, 02:46 PM
it also means that a German without an ID card cannot prove he deserves those rights.
True, but how is that different from the US or any other country? In Germany and many other countries you need an ID card for many things, in some other countries they use different methods (drivers license, social security card, ...). The basic principle is the same.
TteFAboB
11-21-06, 03:24 PM
Yes but I was being ironic. You have rights not only when you're carrying the card but at all times. I think any German who looses his card can prove he deserves inalienable rights alright, as long as he didn't commit any transgression that necessarily must be met with their violation, he has those rights because he was born a human, even before being a German. Nation-states come and go. 2000 years into the future no recognizable "Germany" may exist in any form, yet, people may still have their rights respected, even if their law, their civilization, their world is very different from ours, if for all intents and purposes the effects are the same.
This is being dredged up in Australia again. In the 80's there was a fair amount of debate about the proposed Australia Card. Ultimately it was too hot a political potato for either party to handle and it got sunk.
The question I have is given the amount of information the govenrment already has about you and your activities, is adding the card really going to make much more difference? I'm not sure that the UK laws are like on Privacy, but there have been a number of prosecutions of civil servants who have misused their access to personal database and even in corporations there are fairly stringent privacy controls in place.
I'm not an apologist for adding the cards and to be honest I don't really like the idea of having them introduced so that they link up all your government data, if only because of the damage a lost/stolen/forged card could do to an individual.
ID theft we are told is a groing problem adding a card that gives the bearer access to all your personal details isn't really going to help control that threat and if anything increases the risk that incidences of identity theft will rise even more.
Kapitan_Phillips
11-22-06, 03:15 AM
The focus with these ID cards is yet again wrong. The government seems to be focusing on the current population as a security risk, rather than all those who try to immigrate here.
Think about it. Who would present more of a security risk - a proper British Citizen who has gone through all the proper procedures and aquired a proper passport, visas and the like - or someone who has none of these things and has come here illegally?
STEED - we should set up our own party and take this country back from the cesspool it's fallen into. :rock:
The Avon Lady
11-22-06, 03:23 AM
We don't need no stinkin' ID card!
Roadside fingerprint reader piloted (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/TGD/tgdBreakingNewsDisplay/0,,2,00.html)
Police trials of a hand-held electronic fingerprint reader are being launched. Experts hope the device will save massive amounts of police time and money by allowing officers to identify suspects on the roadside without having to take them to the station. A pilot scheme - called Project Lantern - will be used in Luton, Bedfordshire, by officers targeting motoring offences.
STEED - we should set up our own party and take this country back from the cesspool it's fallen into. :rock:
We indeed need a new party that will stand up to the PC Madness and the rest of the rubbish.
Roadside fingerprint reader piloted (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/TGD/tgdBreakingNewsDisplay/0,,2,00.html)
targeting motoring offences.
Yes indeed the police love targeting the motorist for a spot of revenue raising.
Mr.Werner
11-22-06, 12:40 PM
You geniuses ever stop and think these measure are there to save your lives?
This kinda reminds me of a woman who was complaining about how she had to wait so long because of the added security at the airport. :doh: :damn:
You geniuses ever stop and think these measure are there to save your lives?
Here's why.
Answer:
The National Identity Card can and will be faked allowing terrorists to enter the country with fewer security checks than at present. Why? If they carry the card, and their eye scan matches the database – then it will be "pass friend", without a second glance.
ID cards will do little to stop terrorism and may even aid it. Some terrorists are ‘card-carrying’ citizens of the country in which they carry out their acts (E.g. Timothy McVeigh, Oklahoma bomber). Also, normal common sense anti-terrorism precautions will be dismantled and total reliance placed on the card.
"ID Cards won’t stop terrorism." David Blunkett(prior to resigning.)
Mr.Werner
11-22-06, 01:02 PM
Sorry, don't buy it.
What kind of government do you think we (western) have? You think they think of these security ideas just so that they can track normal people and take advantage of them??
Of course not, wake up, this is not Vendeta the movie. This is real life post 9-11.
These new security ideas are ways that our government is trying to protect its citizens (yes sorry, in my world the government is not out to get me).
Try living here and safe guarding your civil rights from a over the top snooping government.
XabbaRus
11-22-06, 03:16 PM
This is where I agree wholeheartedly with STEED.
Just to let our little German friend know that at the moment should the police choose, under current anti-terror legislation they could pull you off the streets and detain and question you using some pretext. They don't because at the moment our bobbies still have some sense left in them, but it can be done. It's just a step down the road.
This new fingerprint thing is also dangerous. At the moment it is a trial so any print takes have to be voluntary, you can refuse. However if it becomes law then I am pretty certain if you refuse you will be fined. What if there is a case of mistaken identity and your print does happen to be at the crime scen because you were there at some other time. If they rely on this you could end up in the nick and have a hard time getting out.
If they want to cut down on crime and stop terrorism, put more police officers in foot patrol, cops in panda cars don't mix with the community.
Also didn't some guy called Hitler not a long while back also bring in laws and infringe on citizens rights in the name of security to protect the people, and look what you got. A complete nutter who started a second world war and wrought untold devestation.
Sorry but even the USSR wasn't as bad as I fear the UK could get.
panda cars
:lol::lol::lol:
(yes sorry, in my world the government is not out to get me).
Paranoid are we? Well, well look what my government is up to.
Child database 'will ruin family privacy' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=MCSWF2WZNZOORQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQ UIV0?xml=/news/2006/11/22/nchild22.xml)
I don't have a problem with the new fingerprinting technology, it's meant to speed things up. Instead of arresting you and taking you to the police station for a full ID check it can be done at the side of the road. If you refuse to take it then you can still be taken to the station, that'll waste your time, the police's time and a load of taxpayers money, which is a favourite war-cry of some around here.
With nothing to fear I'll happily let them take my prints and get on about my business, my prints are already on record from a former indescretion so they'll soon work out who I am and let me on my way. The idea that I'll be picked up for speeding and then done for a crime where my prints are on the scene is a no-brainer - the evidence is way too slim and circumstantial for that to be a concern.
XabbaRus
11-22-06, 06:56 PM
Not the point Lesrae
They could come and stop me in the street and finger print me cos they are searching for a suspect and think he might still be in the area.
Don't care if I have done nothing wrong and have nothing to fear. It is the principle of the thing. Criminals are fingerprinted, suspects who have been arrested and read their rights with a lawyer present are fingerprinted. Random me on the street minding my own business. No thanks. One thing will lead to another.
If they want to speed things up how about quit making the coppers do all the paperwork that they have to do.
If they want to speed things up how about quit making the coppers do all the paperwork that they have to do.
I couldn't agree with you more there mate.
I understand that prints taken won't be kept on file, just checked against the national archive, of course whether you believe that or not is a different matter...
Mr.Werner
11-23-06, 02:21 AM
Umm, if the police stops you, it's because they are looking for a criminal...this is wrong??
The way I see it, the only reason somebody would complain is because they have something to hide, otherwise you would realise that these measures are there to protect you.
I'll say it again, the government/police is not out to get you (unless you did something wrong).
Btw You might want to thank your local policeman next time you see one, for protecting you in case of an emergency.
These threads are so silly, I'm outta here.
XabbaRus
11-23-06, 03:41 AM
come live in my town.
Umm, if the police stops you, it's because they are looking for a criminal...this is wrong??
The way I see it, the only reason somebody would complain is because they have something to hide, otherwise you would realise that these measures are there to protect you.
I'll say it again, the government/police is not out to get you (unless you did something wrong).
Btw You might want to thank your local policeman next time you see one, for protecting you in case of an emergency.
These threads are so silly, I'm outta here.
You are so naieve. Whenever someone says that police are just doing their jobs and taht if we are truly innocent that we won't be hasseled must be living in a dream world because police are the most dangerous force present in any democratic nation.
The reason I say this is because it is the purpose of police to not trust anyone. Police are instinctively distrustful of anyone and it is their nature to deny you your rights. Theres a reason that the division of powers is such a big deal in the American Constitution. There have to be people monitoring the police because they are obviously not trustworthy. Don't be so stupid as to imply that they are just some brave crusaders for our safety because they are just bruisers that are set with enforcing laws. This isn't to say that police aren't im,portant. But it is a fact that they are what I and many others would call a necessary evil.
Police are an ironic thing as they protect our rights by essentially denying then. But you cannot doubt for one moment that they would not take advantage of you given the chance. The best example that I can bring up is one from my own country.
I'm from Canada and this is generally perceived to be a left leaning progressive place. However in 1970 during the FLQ crisis when domestic terrorists kidnapped the British Ambassador and later killed him Pierre Trudeau, then Prime Minister, declared War Measures in Canada to be able to track these terrorists down. Now though the crisis was isolated to Quebec all constitutional rights were lifted accross the country. And while the army was walking the streets of Montreal in every other province in Canada police were arresting aribitrarily any and all dissidents and pinkos and left wing adjitators and anyone else on their radar and simply throwing them in jail for no reason other than they were dissidents. My father even experienced this. He was at the park that day and with a number of older teens who were smoking weed and loitering. The police came over the hill and arrested anyone that was older than 16. My dad got away cause he was 14.
Now my country is far from a dictatorhsip but this anecdote cleary shows how close we are to a police state. Given the chance the executive will take advantage of you regardless whether you have done anything wrong.
People can also say that this is just one little thing or that its for the good blah blah. It is one more step in the wrong direction. This sort of thing, ID cards and such, is a step closer to a closed society with no rights. We should be moving away from such a thing. It is possible to defend everyones freedom without denying them it.
its like the old cliche, you can't defend freeodm by destroying it.
For many years now routine traffic stops have been handled with a 'producer' - a document which you take to a police station of your choice along with your appropriate documents like drivers licence, mot certificate and vehicle insurance. You normally have 7 days to attend the station with the relevant documentation.
It's a fundamental right in this country to not be hassled by the man when you are going about your law abiding business. Yet every day there's some other small erosion of this right under the guise of 'safety' and 'security' and other similar words bandied about by the government, even if at first glance there seems to be no direct impact on every day life.
A healthy distrust of officialdom and their motives and the oportunity to voice that suspicion in public should be of key importance in any free society, if it isn't then you're no longer free. The more we rely on intrusive and errosive state legislation, like compulsory ID cards and roadside fingerprinting the more likely we are to abdicate the trust placed in individual and state to the basic freedoms we take for granted over here. It's a slippery slope and no mistake.
These threads are so silly, I'm outta here.
You have no idea what it's like to live in the U.K. you seem to base your argument where you live. This morning I rec'd some news about a friend I know, due to the fact it is a on going court case I can not give out any details.
PS: I can say it's a motoring offence.
PS: I can say it's a motoring offence.
ooooh, really? I expect they'll throw the book at him them, because motoring offences are such an issue that we must tackle them with the most extreme predjudice to wallets known to man :rotfl:
PS: I can say it's a motoring offence.
ooooh, really? I expect they'll throw the book at him them, because motoring offences are such an issue that we must tackle them with the most extreme predjudice to wallets known to man :rotfl:
I shall post info when I get the all clear, what I can say it's to do with a mix up.
Got the all clear, alright I shall keep this short. My mate had his court hearing changed to a latter date but due to a mix up, he never received any phone calls or letters stating the change of date. The police turned up at his house and arrested him. Some hours latter he was released and no apology from the police, well that sound about right.
How typical.
I don't suppose anyone will be taken to task for failure to correspond with your mate concerning his hearing? (like the peeps who threatened CCJ over council tax because I was making payments according to their payment plan :roll::roll: which was a month in arrears 'cause that's how it's paid :huh::hmm: ...idiots)
Most odd, you can now be arrested for non appearance at court for a motoring offence? I was under the impression that they'd simply conduct the proceedings without you and judge accordingly, i.e. guilty.
What was the motoring offence, if you don't mind my asking and has there been a ruling made?
Five offensives in all.
No details.
Mr.Werner
11-24-06, 10:03 AM
You are so naieve. Whenever someone says that police are just doing their jobs and taht if we are truly innocent that we won't be hasseled must be living in a dream world because police are the most dangerous force present in any democratic nation.
The reason I say this is because it is the purpose of police to not trust anyone. Police are instinctively distrustful of anyone and it is their nature to deny you your rights. Theres a reason that the division of powers is such a big deal in the American Constitution. There have to be people monitoring the police because they are obviously not trustworthy. Don't be so stupid as to imply that they are just some brave crusaders for our safety because they are just bruisers that are set with enforcing laws. This isn't to say that police aren't im,portant. But it is a fact that they are what I and many others would call a necessary evil.
Police are an ironic thing as they protect our rights by essentially denying then. But you cannot doubt for one moment that they would not take advantage of you given the chance. The best example that I can bring up is one from my own country.
I'm from Canada and this is generally perceived to be a left leaning progressive place. However in 1970 during the FLQ crisis when domestic terrorists kidnapped the British Ambassador and later killed him Pierre Trudeau, then Prime Minister, declared War Measures in Canada to be able to track these terrorists down. Now though the crisis was isolated to Quebec all constitutional rights were lifted accross the country. And while the army was walking the streets of Montreal in every other province in Canada police were arresting aribitrarily any and all dissidents and pinkos and left wing adjitators and anyone else on their radar and simply throwing them in jail for no reason other than they were dissidents. My father even experienced this. He was at the park that day and with a number of older teens who were smoking weed and loitering. The police came over the hill and arrested anyone that was older than 16. My dad got away cause he was 14.
Now my country is far from a dictatorhsip but this anecdote cleary shows how close we are to a police state. Given the chance the executive will take advantage of you regardless whether you have done anything wrong.
People can also say that this is just one little thing or that its for the good blah blah. It is one more step in the wrong direction. This sort of thing, ID cards and such, is a step closer to a closed society with no rights. We should be moving away from such a thing. It is possible to defend everyones freedom without denying them it.
its like the old cliche, you can't defend freeodm by destroying it.
I'm so naieve? ( I guess you meant naive)
The october crisis in Quebec was serious, the FLQ was planting bombs in mailboxes, drastic events called for drastic measures.
And your dad's friends were arrested for loitering and doing drugs?? How dare the police!
They are a truly oppressive organization...
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.